# Israel vs Palestine who's side are you on?



## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

*Israel vs Palestine*​
Team Israel 3621.30%Team Palestine 8852.07%couldnt give a damn either way4526.63%


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

Just an anonymous poll.

I understand it can be a touchy subject for some so no need to give reasons why you back one side over the other If you dont wish.

Although I would like to see the arguments from both side of the fence.

It doesnt affect me personally so Im not really fussed either way.

I see the Israelis killing innocent women and children but at the same time I see the Palestinians provoking the Israelis to attack.


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## Athenian (Sep 19, 2012)

I'm on neither side. They 've both got the blood of innocents on their hands, so counting which one killed more to determine who's the bad guy in the situation is like trying to decided who the good guy is between Ted Bundy and David Berkowitz.


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## Mikkeltaylor (Jun 10, 2014)

I'm on the side that doesn't kill innocent women and children....


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## husky (Jan 31, 2010)

I'm on the side of the innocents who are being murdered by both sides, time for sanctions against Israel though now


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

Mikkeltaylor said:


> I'm on the side that doesn't kill innocent women and children....


Which would be...?


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## raf3070 (Mar 2, 2009)

Theres a lot of bloody history between these two countries, but everytime its Palestine that provokes it!!!

Ive no sympathy for Palestine.......... And in my book its them that triggerd this latest spat off!


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## DanishM (Dec 15, 2013)

Both are equally as bad imo. Palestinians being pussies and playing the victim card and then Israel paying back...


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## jammie2013 (Nov 14, 2013)

I suspect if our media coverage wasn't so pro-Israeli, the poll would look different. Actually look at the history between the two nations


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## PD89 (Mar 27, 2014)

@DeskSitter


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## troponin (Apr 2, 2014)

This thread is gonna get deleted but I'm totally on the side of the Palestinians. The Zionist Israelis are trying to take over Palestinian land to form more of their "promised land" which will never exist. They claim they are "defending themselves" yet the majority of those who have been killed are women and children. Israel also has the Iron Dome defense system funded courtesy of the American government... Not hard to see the genocide that's going on here. Hamas isn't asking for much, only for what was once theirs to be returned to them. General consensus is that towards pro-palestine


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## DappaDonDave (Dec 2, 2013)

Blowing each other up is going well for both sides...leave them too it.


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## Sams (Nov 3, 2013)

I voted for crystal Palestine


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

DappaDonDave said:


> Blowing each other up is going well for both sides...leave them too it.


same opinion here but if i had to go for one or the other id go for israel


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## josephbloggs (Sep 29, 2013)

i honestly believe most semi intelligent people capable of a bit of objectivity, if they actually spent some time reading and getting a decent grasp of the facts and underlying issues, they would side with palestine.

but a lot people prefer to form opinions based on snippets from a biased MSM and ingrained prejudices.


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## spod (Mar 25, 2010)

If America wasn't such big buddies with Israel, the UN would have gone in long ago and put a stop to their crimes.


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## Sigma (Apr 13, 2014)

Despite all the bitching by western media about russia, RT do seem to have the best and unbiased sources when it comes to the middle east conflict and the fact that ordinary people despite which side of the border they reside in, don't want war and just want to live their life like everyone here:



















http://rt.com/news/175792-jews-arabs-refuse-enemies/

Millions of Jews are completely against israels draft and refuse to ever acknowledge Israel as a legitimate state. Orthodox jews that is, who generally know wtf they're talking about when it comes to their own religion unlike contemporary israelis, so when it's coming straight from the horses mouth, why the USA still backs Israel is astounding.

So religion is just an excuse. There appears to be a small bunch of weird little fukcers dictating to their armies to cause as much death as destruction as they can, for reasons known only to them.


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## staffs_lad (Mar 10, 2013)

Two government's acting like children which is leading to the slaughter of 100's of innocents.

It's not a matter of sides for me...

They're all human but they can't co-exist because of 2 different ancient text / belief systems? Boggles the mind how people can be that simple in this day and age.

"they started it bo***cks shouldn't get passed primary school let alone politics and war!


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## Kiwi As (Nov 4, 2013)

Tbh you can't blame the soldiers or either country.

Blame the people who have brainwashed Israeli people into thinking they are Jewish and have the right to the 'holy land' that is Palestine. Look at how Israel has grown over the last 50 years, how Palestine has shrunken. Research the bloodline of Israeli people, and who would have motive to create such destruction. How holy is it to kill over holy land? Bit ridiculous.

Them mainstream news centres aren't there to keep you informed.


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## Machette (Oct 29, 2011)

josephbloggs said:


> i honestly believe most semi intelligent people capable of a bit of objectivity, if they actually spent some time reading and getting a decent grasp of the facts and underlying issues, they would side with palestine.
> 
> but a lot people prefer to form opinions based on snippets from a biased MSM and ingrained prejudices.


Agree with you totally bud.

Id love for the idiots on here siding with israel to look into it and read some facts.

Israel government scum of scum in my opinion; you cant just take something thats not yours.

Id love for scotland to take over england and see how opinions on the matter change then. Also how all the cyants like america get involved.

Is it because there muslims that they are not getting helped save what rightfully belongs to them???

Im not pulling the race or religion card here either because the Saudi Arabian royal families also have there head stuck up the asses of israel.


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## Zurg (Jan 28, 2014)

Atheists, Agnostics, Jews, Christians and Muslims can continue to live in Palestine as they have done peacefully for 100s of years.

Give the Zonists Germany. Fair is fair. Problem solved.


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## Zola (Mar 14, 2012)

Both sides have blood on their hands.


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## SelflessSelfie (May 25, 2014)

I think both sides are a bit nuts to be honest.

Israel is surrounded by enemies, the Muslim states surrounding them want them wiped from the face of the earth for no reason apart from the fact they are Jews.

Hamas constantly provoke Israel and personally if I had some terrorist group firing rockets are my people I would do my very best as a leader to wipe them from the face of the earth.

But I have always been a little harsh, I have the frame of mind that this world would be a much better place without petit religion being an excuse for conflict.

Gets on my tits.....


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## josephbloggs (Sep 29, 2013)

Machette said:


> Agree with you totally bud.
> 
> Id love for the idiots on here siding with israel to look into it and read some facts.
> 
> ...


well i'm not sure what it really boils down to but there is something very strange and insidious about the relationship between the US and israel, definitely a case of the tail wagging the dog. how ridiculous it is when you have the us calling for more sanctions against russia when a plane gets shot down in ukraine , without any evidence even being presented that russia had anything to with it.

yet israel the country with more UN condemnations and denouncements than any on earth, kills hundreds of civilians in a matter of days in a region that the entire world publicly agrees it is illegally occupying and there's not a single mention of sanctions? rather than that the US continues to give it 3 billion dollars a year in military aid to continue it's destruction of palestinians.


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## theonlyjosh (Aug 12, 2013)

Unless Paddy Power start offering odds, I'm not really interested in it.


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## Machette (Oct 29, 2011)

josephbloggs said:


> well i'm not sure what it really boils down to but there is something very strange and insidious about the relationship between the US and israel, definitely a case of the tail wagging the dog. how ridiculous it is when you have the us calling for more sanctions against russia when a plane gets shot down in ukraine , without any evidence even being presented that russia had anything to with it.
> 
> yet israel the country with more UN condemnations and denouncements than any on earth, kills hundreds of civilians in a matter of days in a region that the entire world publicly agrees it is illegally occupying and there's not a single mention of sanctions? rather than that the US continues to give it 3 billion dollars a year in military aid to continue it's destruction of palestinians.


Ive been reading how its all related to conspiracy and zionists wanting a new world order.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

I'm totally against the genocide of any nation/culture, as far as I'm concerned, the Zionist's are responsible for the worst atrocities in the 20th and 21st century.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Israel needs to be honest and say they're taking over Palestine because they want to expand their territory. I could respect that. But they play the victim and tell people they're just defending themselves against Hamas. It's bull****, they're just killing off the Palestinians because they want their land.


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## Adz (Jan 29, 2008)

Keep hearing stuff about it on the radio but haven't read anything about it, so I have no idea why they are fighting!

So, at this point I couldn't care less who wins.


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

Nazism didn't go nowhere, it just changed it's name to Zionism!


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## Ken Hutchinson (May 29, 2009)

I just feel really sad for both sides, i dont know how it will end, but it wont be good


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## josephbloggs (Sep 29, 2013)

EpicSquats said:


> Israel needs to be honest and say they're taking over Palestine because they want to expand their territory. I could respect that. But they play the victim and tell people they're just defending themselves against Hamas. It's bull****, they're just killing off the Palestinians because they want their land.


/ THREAD


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## Sams (Nov 3, 2013)

So who occupies palatine, the jews ? or are they trying to take over it ?

So the Zionists want to get to palastine as they believe that is their land, when in actual fact its not ?

Or am i completely wrong ?


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

If it goes to penaltys I'm going with Israel


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Sams said:


> So who occupies palatine, the jews ? or are they trying to take over it ?
> 
> So the Zionists want to get to palastine as they believe that is their land, when in actual fact its not ?
> 
> Or am i completely wrong ?


Basically, at the end of World War 2, a bunch of Jews ( known as Zionist Jews ) complained how much they were persecuted in Europe by the evil Nazis and demanded a homeland of their own in Palestine. So in 1948 they kicked a load of Palestinians off their own land and declared it a new country for the Jews instead- Israel. It seems very hypocritical of them to mistreat Palestinians like that straight after complaining about being mistreated themselves, but that's the Zionist Jews for you.


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## SickCurrent (Sep 19, 2005)

Can we just kill them all and let God sort them out..?


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

The problem is there are stubborn idiots governing both sides. The Israelis have gone totally over the top, like taking a sledgehammer to an ant. Realistically everyone, including the UN know Israel are in the wrong but nothing every seems to be done.

However Hamas are also ****ing idiots as they are just giving the Israelis an excuse by continually firing missiles.

This conflict will go on forever, long past our lifetimes in my opinion. If you look at that part of the world, the truth is most of them are backwards, violence is all anyone understands.Whilst some of the images are awful, the truth is there is very little we can do. America like to think people listen to them but they don't really.


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## Sams (Nov 3, 2013)

EpicSquats said:


> Basically, at the end of World War 2, a bunch of Jews ( known as Zionist Jews ) complained how much they were persecuted in Europe by the evil Nazis and demanded a homeland of their own in Palestine. So in 1948 they kicked a load of Palestinians off their own land and declared it a new country for the Jews instead- Israel. It seems very hypocritical of them to mistreat Palestinians like that straight after complaining about being mistreated themselves, but that's the Zionist Jews for you.


So the Palestinians are fighting the jews in Palestine to get their land back? Who religion are they?

thanks for reply


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## SwAn1 (Jun 4, 2012)

There's no oil in it for me and one of the sides has big time weapons so, I have no bias


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

MR RIGSBY said:


> America like to think people listen to them but they don't really.


America listens to Israel, that's for sure.


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## Machette (Oct 29, 2011)

The zionists as said above are behind alot of atroceties.

Watch this video:

Sigmund Freud.

Just 1 zionist and his quest to corrupt the people of europe.

They have a plan a very well thought out plan on how they can control literally everything in the world. Media, finance, industry and everything important.


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

EpicSquats said:


> America listens to Israel, that's for sure.


Not sure they listen to them, more they appease them. Definitely a strange relationship between the 2 I agree with that. Basically Israel is the USAs military arm in that region.

I personally don't buy into the Zionist stuff but each to there own. Israel offer very little other than there military strength


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

EpicSquats said:


> Basically, at the end of World War 2, a bunch of Jews ( known as Zionist Jews ) complained how much they were persecuted in Europe by the evil Nazis and demanded a homeland of their own in Palestine. So in 1948 they kicked a load of Palestinians off their own land and declared it a new country for the Jews instead- Israel. It seems very hypocritical of them to mistreat Palestinians like that straight after complaining about being mistreated themselves, but that's the Zionist Jews for you.


Ironically it was the European Jewish elite that had the Jewish working class rounded up and given a stark choice, leave for Palestine or face the consequences of a Zionist/Ashke*nazi *funded War in Europe.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

I agree I'd side with the palestinians, the picture on the last page sums it up pretty well.

Quite clear why America likes them though, a friend in the middle of all their enemies


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## achilles88 (Aug 27, 2010)

Any one who is in support of Israel or says they are "provoked" by Palestine has no clue.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

dann19900 said:


> I agree I'd side with the palestinians, the picture on the last page sums it up pretty well.
> 
> Quite clear why America likes them though, a friend in the middle of all their enemies


Makes you wonder why these Muslim countries are the enemy of the USA in the first place though doesn't it?


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## dalboy (Sep 16, 2009)

This has nothing to do with Israel against the palestinians.

There are over 1 million muslims living in Israel

This is about Israel defending itself against HAMAS.

Plus Israel pulled out of occupying Gaza in around 2005/6.

There is also isnt or wasnt any place called "palestine". i.e. no Palestinian state.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

EpicSquats said:


> Makes you wonder why these Muslim countries are the enemy of the USA in the first place though doesn't it?


yeah, really don't think Israel is anywhere near the sole/main reason but i won't derail the thread lol


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

dalboy said:


> This has nothing to do with Israel against the palestinians.
> 
> There are over 1 million muslims living in Israel
> 
> ...


So you're on Israel's side then?


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

dalboy said:


> Plus Israel pulled out of occupying Gaza in around 2005/6.


Oh well how generous of them, when are they handing the rest back? lol


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## WrightStar (Nov 20, 2012)

The Jews for years were being unlawfully pushed out of their homeland, so it's fantastic that ever since they've rightfully got it back that they won't take one piece of **** from Hamas.

They're roughly 4% of the American population, yet are responsible for approximately 40% of the US' wealth. I for one am glad that such a minority will always have the backing of the worlds biggest super power.


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

dalboy said:


> This has nothing to do with Israel against the palestinians.
> 
> There are over 1 million muslims living in Israel
> 
> ...


WTF are you on about?


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

WrightStar said:


> The Jews for years were being unlawfully pushed out of their homeland, so it's fantastic that ever since they've rightfully got it back that they won't take one piece of **** from Hamas.
> 
> They're roughly 4% of the American population, yet are responsible for approximately 40% of the US' wealth. I for one am glad that such a minority will always have the backing of the worlds biggest super power.


So you support the injustice, genocide and racial apartheid system of the Zionist pigs?


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Mikkeltaylor said:


> I'm on the side that doesn't kill innocent women and children....


What side is that then mate. The side that fires rockets from the sky into populated areas or the side that fires rockets from the ground into populated areas?????


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## WrightStar (Nov 20, 2012)

Sub-Zero said:


> So you support the injustice, genocide and racial apartheid system of the Zionist pigs?


Dear friend,

I respect only what is right and just in this, at times, despicable world that we live in. And that, in my own personal and honest opinion, is supporting a minority (the Jewish people) in which has been, for countless years, bullied by Hamas for standing up for what only is (and always has been for that matter) theirs - Israel, ergo a Jewish state.


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## Ross S (Jan 31, 2014)

dalboy said:


> This has nothing to do with Israel against the palestinians.
> 
> There are over 1 million muslims living in Israel
> 
> ...


And there wasn't a place called Israel since biblical times either mate, what's your point?

People that consider themselves Palestinian had been living in the levant for hundreds of years and were forced to leave their homes because the bible says that the area should belong to the Jews who hadn't had a recognised state there since biblical times! Hardly seems fair does it?


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## PD89 (Mar 27, 2014)

The middle east will never see peace until they all realise god isn't real.


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## tommyc2k7 (Jun 7, 2013)

There is only one real solution to peace in the middle east


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

WrightStar said:


> Dear friend,
> 
> I respect only what is right and just in this, at times, despicable world that we live in. And that, in my own personal and honest opinion, is supporting a minority (the Jewish people) in which has been, for countless years, bullied by Hamas for standing up for what only is (and always has been for that matter) theirs - Israel, ergo a Jewish state.


What makes it theirs??

Bullied by Hamas?? lol... A nation that doesn't even have an air force.

The Zionist stole palestinan land, now complain of being bullied? a bit like blaming a raped woman for resisting her rapist!


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

The problem is, how far back in history do you go to decide who the rightful occupants are? It's such a complicated situation.

You would think they could come to an agreement at some point wouldn't you, I mean the people who live in these countries surely want piece. Sadly it's the so-called leaders who won't come to any compromise.


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## vinoboxer (Oct 8, 2013)

I can't envisage an end to the situation anytime soon never mind it being a peaceful one.

I think because of the amount of blood shed then the quest for peace will be far removed from the hunt for revenge.


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## skinnnyfat (Feb 26, 2012)

Israel have no interest in peace, they want territory, they killed Arrafat because he was a peace maker and whatever happens none of the occupied land will be returned. If they were going to return it then.they would not have ethnicly cleansed the area and filled it with settlements.


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## skinnnyfat (Feb 26, 2012)

Has anyone noted that both Cameron and Milliband are.Jewish?


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

skinnnyfat said:


> Israel have no interest in peace, they want territory, they killed Arrafat because he was a peace maker and whatever happens none of the occupied land will be returned. If they were going to return it then.they would not have ethnicly cleansed the area and filled it with settlements.


Exactly that!

They won't stop until they've exterminated the palestinians from "their" holy land, which is ever expanding.


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## WrightStar (Nov 20, 2012)

Sub-Zero said:


> What makes it theirs??
> 
> Bullied by Hamas?? lol... A nation that doesn't even have an air force.
> 
> The Zionist stole palestinan land, now complain of being bullied? a bit like blaming a raped woman for resisting her rapist!


Regardless of the military might of a nation, you can still be bullied by one that's inferior. And Israel didn't have much military force until the US equipped them with nuclear warheads - and good on them for it! Nobody fcuks with Israel.


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

WrightStar said:


> Regardless of the military might of a nation, you can still be bullied by one that's inferior. And Israel didn't have much military force until the US equipped them with nuclear warheads - and good on them for it! Nobody fcuks with Israel.


Israel has never been inferior, the US and Britain has always been it's lapdogs...it's the only reason it exists.

They'll never be peace in the region as Israel won't stop until they've secured the land from the Euphrates to the the river Nile. The Palestinians will also never back down until they reclaim their land back.

Jerusalem is a city to watch as it will play a pivitol role in a major world war...soon.


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## skinnnyfat (Feb 26, 2012)

WrightStar said:


> Regardless of the military might of a nation, you can still be bullied by one that's inferior. And Israel didn't have much military force until the US equipped them with nuclear warheads - and good on them for it! Nobody fcuks with Israel.


Yep, good old child murdering Israel. Those kids playing football on the beach who got.blown to pieces won't ****.with Israel. Nor the parents holding a dead two year old with half its head missing. I wonder if any Israelis considered leaving occupied land might stop hamas fireing rockets?


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## josephbloggs (Sep 29, 2013)

skinnnyfat said:


> Yep, good old child murdering Israel. Those kids playing football on the beach who got.blown to pieces won't ****.with Israel. Nor the parents holding a dead two year old with half its head missing. *I wonder if any Israelis considered leaving occupied land might stop hamas fireing rockets?*


well hamas states it would accept a palestinian state based on the pre 1967 UN borders, which is what international law/community (US included) publicly calls for but Israel rejects that proposition out of hand. meanwhile israel continues to move more and more of it's own civilian population into the occupied regions which constitutes a war crime according to the geneva conventions, yet our media calls hamas terrorists for putting up resistance?

Red Cross

"International armed conflicts

The prohibition on deporting or transferring parts of a State's own civilian population into the territory it occupies is set forth in the Fourth Geneva Convention.[1] It is a grave breach of Additional Protocol I.[2] Under the Statute of the International Criminal Court, "the transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies" constitutes a war crime in international armed conflicts"

http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_cha_chapter38_rule130%23sthash.rTZZCiBe.dpuf


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## b0t13 (Jan 3, 2013)

America is run by Jews, it's economy is heavily tired into arms and weapons, having a war keeps the USA going so funding other Jews with weapons and getting some free land is a win win for them, them Jews are really powerful and most people don't know they exist!


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## DanishM (Dec 15, 2013)

b0t13 said:


> America is run by Jews, it's economy is heavily tired into arms and weapons, having a war keeps the USA going so funding other Jews with weapons and getting some free land is a win win for them, them Jews are really powerful and most people don't know they exist!


Exactly a thought that just struck me! All the head of banks in the world are ran by Jews. Of course USA is going to support the jews and let them do whatever they want to, as long as they then keep the bank-men happy.


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## WrightStar (Nov 20, 2012)

b0t13 said:


> America is run by Jews, it's economy is heavily tired io arms and weapons, having a war keeps the USA going so funding other Jews with weapons and getting some free land is a win win for them, them Jews are really powerful and most people don't know they exist!


Precisely. A Jewish minority runs America to a great degree (run government and their 4% of the US' population is accountable for approx.40% of its wealth). They're a very clever people. #DatDemJews


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

DanishM said:


> Exactly a thought that just struck me! All the head of banks in the world are ran by Jews. Of course USA is going to support the jews and let them do whatever they want to, as long as they then keep the bank-men happy.


The chair of the Federal Reserve (the central bank of the USA) is a Jew, Janet Yellen, the vice Chairman is a Jew Stanley Fischer.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

It's a really, really tough call to make but I don't think I am on either side. I see wrongs on both sides if I am honest. On one hand it's easy to call Hamas terrorists but realistically what do you want the Palestinians to do? Sit back and be removed from their homes and be bombed. Hamas is only fighting back with weapons that may do some damage. I doubt anyone on this board would not do similar if they had to watch friends and family being killed by a foreign invader.

But then I also look at some of the Israeli tactics and think that they are giving ample warning and are not in general wanting to strike as they are but need to do something if rockets continue to be fired at them. I mean they did give lots of warnings to Hamas to stop firing the rockets or they would have no choice but to start a ground offensive.

I am only scratching the surface here as the issues are deep rooted on both sides and there is no simple solution, our only hope is that as human beings on both sides we someday recognise the futility of killing others. But that day won't happen in my lifetime I doubt. Real shame for everyone suffering out there on both sides.


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## josephbloggs (Sep 29, 2013)

Delhi said:


> It's a really, really tough call to make but I don't think I am on either side. I see wrongs on both sides if I am honest. On one hand it's easy to call Hamas terrorists but realistically what do you want the Palestinians to do? Sit back and be removed from their homes and be bombed. Hamas is only fighting back with weapons that may do some damage. I doubt anyone on this board would not do similar if they had to watch friends and family being killed by a foreign invader.
> 
> But then I also look at some of the Israeli tactics and think that they are giving ample warning and are not in general wanting to strike as they are but need to do something if rockets continue to be fired at them. I mean they did give lots of warnings to Hamas to stop firing the rockets or they would have no choice but to start a ground offensive.
> 
> I am only scratching the surface here as the issues are deep rooted on both sides and there is no simple solution, *our only hope is that as human beings on both sides we someday recognise the futility of killing others*. But that day won't happen in my lifetime I doubt. Real shame for everyone suffering out there on both sides.


well my hope is that we(the public in the west) start putting pressure on our governments to stop this nonsense. israel has countless un resolutions against it, condemning it's actions and calling for it's withdrawal to pre 1967 borders, and countless more resolutions against it have been vetoed by the US.

it's time the BS stopped and action is taken , israel cannot continue what it's doing without US sponsorship , if Israel was told that all financial and political support will be withdrawn immediately unless they start obeying international law they would comply tomorrow.

but we can go and carpet bomb gaddafi to save libyians from persecution, yet nothing can be done to just stop funding israel to commit war crimes?


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Sub-Zero said:


> Israel has never been inferior, the US and Britain has always been it's lapdogs...it's the only reason it exists.
> 
> They'll never be peace in the region as Israel won't stop until they've secured the land from the Euphrates to the the river Nile. The Palestinians will also never back down until they reclaim their land back.
> 
> Jerusalem is a city to watch as it will play a pivitol role in a major world war...soon.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

josephbloggs said:


> well my hope is that we(the public in the west) start putting pressure on our governments to stop this nonsense. israel has countless un resolutions against it, condemning it's actions and calling for it's withdrawal to pre 1967 borders, and countless more resolutions against it have been vetoed by the US.
> 
> it's time the BS stopped and action is taken , israel cannot continue what it's doing without US sponsorship , if Israel was told that all financial and political support will be withdrawn immediately unless they start obeying international law they would comply tomorrow.
> 
> but we can go and carpet bomb gaddafi to save libyians from persecution, yet nothing can be done to just stop funding israel to commit war crimes?


Nothing ever happens because everyone has the 'ah what i do wont make a difference' attitude. Even if all the women in the UK who were 'team palestine' stopped buying estee lauder that would have a fairly noticeable effect


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## Tonk007 (Jan 1, 2012)

Israel are plain & simple murders/terrorists who should be wiped off the planet

hitler was right, jews are pure evil scum, how anyone could justify the atrocities they have comitted in palestine

intenionally killing innocent civillions including young children is beyond belief


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

EpicSquats said:


> The chair of the Federal Reserve (the central bank of the USA) is a Jew, Janet Yellen, the vice Chairman is a Jew Stanley Fischer.


Give me control of a nations money supply, and I care not who makes it's laws. Mater Amschel Rothschild, founder of the Rothschild banking dynasty.

Says it all really!


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Can't believe 11 people have voted in favour of israel.

Let me simplify this or I'll be here forever.

The British gave Israel their land in 1947, they gave land that didnt belong to them and was rightfully the palestinian peoples where jews and israelis co-existed for hundreds of years peacefully.

Since palestine was halved, israel have continued their aggression leaving palestine with just the west bank and gaza which are on other sides of the country.

Hamas which is a democratically elected government only want peace. Israel however will not stop until it wipes out palestine completely, Ariel sharon the previous PM of israel said this explicitly, many other highers up in israel have said openly they want to kill all palestinians, that they should be killed, their woman raped and them completely wiped off the map.

The reason the middle east want rid of israel which no other country has specifically stated it, is because the jews were given land that never belonged to them. If they were given the land in their book, why does no-one question this book and suddenly think it is factual and correct? IT IS NOT! The higher ups in israel hated judiasm and thus became zionists with a zionist plan. The jews are not the problem here.

Israel and many others deem Hamas a terrorist organisation, well lets look at the facts :

Israel has took palestines water supply, it gives them hardly any water, has control of their electricity which they have hardly any, has closed off their borders and keeps them in an open air prison.

Hamas simply want freedom for their people and have been under continued aggression, where palestinians are evicted from their homes by jewish vigilanties, the israel goverment keep building illegal settlements on stolen land and arrest and detain palestinians on a daily basis as well as assault them and publicly humiliate them. This is not all, the worst is palestine is continually bombed and outside medical supply and aid cut off.

Hamas tries to counter this by firing rockets but are deemed a terrorist group when in fact it is resistance, Imagine england invaded scotland, cut off your supplies, closed the border took your resources and put your people in prison for no reason, as well as assualt, humiliate and torture at the same time what would you do?

The current assualt is to take even more land, and to steal palestinians gas resources. :http://www.globalresearch.ca/is-israels-operation-protective-edge-really-about-natural-gas/5393103

These gas resources are rumoured to be worth 4 bilion which israel will stop at nothing to get and you can see this clearly by their actions. Israel has also signed a deal with british gas to export their gas thus Israel not stopping until it will get what it wants.

If palestine land and resources were not stolen by Israel, palestine would be richer than dubai and abu dhabi.

Let me finish on this, Gaza is 25 miles long and 4 and a half miles wide with over 5 million people living there most of them refugees in their own land. Gaza is the most densely populated area in the world and the gaza people have nowhere to go and this is why hamas is telling them not to evacuate as they cannot go anywhere, their is the israeli navy in the water waiting to kill anyone who tries to leave. The people have tunnels which are used to bring in construction materials and food and possibly arms which they use to defend themselves. The people of gaza are not used as human sheilds as israel and the media portray, rather they have no option but to sit tight as if they try to get close to leave the country they will be killed.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

I also invite anyone who voted israel in this thread to view their thoughts as to why they are right.

Jews worldwide who properly follow Judaism reject the zionist state of israel and too want to live in peace and harmony with the palestinians.


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

Respect for Jon Snow for telling it how it is.


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> The British gave Israel their land in 1947, they gave land that didnt belong to them and was rightfully the palestinian peoples where jews and israelis co-existed for hundreds of years peacefully.


really - how come the Brits were in a position to give away Palestine ??


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## 222 (Feb 7, 2014)

This is an open poll- seems if someone supports israel they get jumped on.

End of the day, All killing needs to stop.


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

zak007 said:


> Can't believe 11 people have voted in favour of israel.
> 
> Let me simplify this or I'll be here forever.
> 
> ...


Good post, and I pretty much agree with everything you've said, apart from the bit about Hamas.

There popularity in Gaza was at an all time low before the recent troubles,they fire rockets into Israel indiscriminately, they don't target military or strategic targets, all they aim to do is kill Israelis, men, women and children. They are no different to the Israelis in that sense, it's just they don't have the weaponry to do more harm.Hamas have always used children as human shields, just last week a UN peace envoy found ammunition supplies hidden in schools. If the Palestinians want peace I don't think they'll get it with Hamas as there spokesman.

Other than that I do agree with you though mate, Israels actions are disgusting and I personally think the world are beginning to see that.


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## LeVzi (Nov 18, 2013)

Tonk007 said:


> Israel are plain & simple murders/terrorists who should be wiped off the planet
> 
> hitler was right, jews are pure evil scum, how anyone could justify the atrocities they have comitted in palestine
> 
> intenionally killing innocent civillions including young children is beyond belief


And Hitler was a saint I suppose not killing young children and innocent civillians ?


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

dalboy said:


> This has nothing to do with Israel against the palestinians.
> 
> There are over 1 million muslims living in Israel
> 
> ...


bullsh1t, you mean there was no such thing as israel till 1948.

Israel doesnt need to defend itself against hamas, hamas is defenceless and has no army, navy, f16's etc. Its just to steal more land and resources.

Israel may have pulled out of troops of gaza but it is still under occupation with many basic supplies cut off.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

222 said:


> This is an open poll- seems if someone supports israel they get jumped on.
> 
> End of the day, All killing needs to stop.


its people posting their opinions and basing it on facts.

If we look at all the facts Israel is the blatant aggressor, always has been and continues to be. They are the worst of hypocrites and anyone supporting them must be fcuked in the head.

Lets go back and look into history again, Yitzhak Rabin the israeli prime minister was assassinated in israel in 1995 for actually sitting down with the palestine leader and truly wanting peace.

This says it all.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

MR RIGSBY said:


> Good post, and I pretty much agree with everything you've said, apart from the bit about Hamas.
> 
> There popularity in Gaza was at an all time low before the recent troubles,they fire rockets into Israel indiscriminately, they don't target military or strategic targets, all they aim to do is kill Israelis, men, women and children. They are no different to the Israelis in that sense, it's just they don't have the weaponry to do more harm.Hamas have always used children as human shields, just last week a UN peace envoy found ammunition supplies hidden in schools. If the Palestinians want peace I don't think they'll get it with Hamas as there spokesman.
> 
> Other than that I do agree with you though mate, Israels actions are disgusting and I personally think the world are beginning to see that.


I agree, they dont have the technology to fire weapons accurately and fire just to kill whoever, but this is only in RETALIATION against the israeli leaders having them under continued oppresion.

Can you point to a non bias media which says amunition supplies were hidden in schools?

Palestine will never get peace as long as israel exists, look at my post above where a past israeli PM was assassinated for wanting peace.

The world is definitely seeing it now and their are protests worldwide, see here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/08/sarkozy-obama-netanyahu-gaffe-microphone

Both sarkozy and obama were unaware they were being recorded in a private room and said the following:

The French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, described the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, as a "liar" in a private exchange with Barack Obama at last week's G20 summit in Cannes that was inadvertently broadcast to journalists.

"I cannot stand him. He's a liar," Sarkozy told Obama. The US president responded by saying: "You're fed up with him? I have to deal with him every day."

Even though this is what they said, israel has an indescribable control of obama and bears the question what is it?


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

DanishM said:


> Both are equally as bad imo. Palestinians being pussies and playing the victim card and then Israel paying back...


explain this, how are they playing the victim card they are the fcuking victims.


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> explain this, how are they playing the victim card they are the fcuking victims.


victims of useless rocket fire - 1000's of rockets fired - how many deaths ??? may as well get Hamas to sign a deal with Brocks fireworks - they cause more damage than Hamas's 2 rd grade rocket experiments !!


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

BettySwallocks said:


> Which would be...?


Killing more women and children is the usual approach lol.


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## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Personally I think they both need a slap..........figuratively speaking...

On the one hand...Israel is a state set up for religious reasons and they have unquestionably taken it way too far. On the other hand - Hamas are genocidal maniacs.

There is no question Israel have the upper hand defensively; they are far better trained and equipped. Equally - they have support from people who really shouldn't be supporting either side (ie the US..no great surprise).

This article makes a lot of interesting arguments - not sure I completely agree with it but it does offer a different perspective:

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

I'm not sure i'm really on board with teh idea of the Israelis showing restraint....what I see on (the heavily edited) media doesn't lend itself to that conclusion.

But the article makes a really key point - what if Israel had the upper hand (which they do) what would happen? Exactly what is happening now. What if it was the other way round? Hamas have publicly and repeatedly expressed the desire to commit genocide. They have declared that they wish to remove all jews from the planet, men, women, children. There is no doubt in my mind that if Hamas had the firepower they would wipe out Israel tomorrow. Israel DO have the firepower, but haven't done that. Admittedly that's as much for public face saving as anything...but Hamas don't care about worldwide public opinion.

The problem - as always - is that individual actions are ascribed to the state (as though someone in command specifically said "bomb children on beaches"...Israelis are not that stupid...) so individual acts of war crime (on both sides) become something teh nation does officially (when that's likely not teh case). And more - that actually - the people who are not fighting are the true casualties and they all...on both sides...just want to get one and have a peaceful life. But the powers that be (on both sides) won't allow that to happen.

It is the very definition of FUBAR.


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

@zak007 It's clear to see you're passionate on this subject so you seem a good person to ask...

What do you think would happen if Hamas had the fire power the Israelis have?

Personally i think they would wipe Israel of the face of the Earth, including all women and children...

Would you still have the support for Palestine and Hamas if this was to happen?


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

BettySwallocks said:


> @zak007 It's clear to see you're passionate on this subject so you seem a good person to ask...
> 
> What do you think would happen if Hamas had the fire power the Israelis have?
> 
> ...


I think if Israel was able to, they would wipe the Palestinians off the map and claim self-defence. And having said that, Palestinians are mostly in one place- Palestine. Jews live all over the world, so even if Hamas did kill every living person in Israel they wouldn't kill off all the Jews. But if it was the other way round, nearly all Palestinians would be killed off by the Israelis.

This is what annoys me about Zionist Jews as well, a lot of them don't live in Israel. A lot of them live in the USA or Europe. But despite living in the USA or Europe, their first loyalty is to Israel and they try to influence the politics of the country they live in to support Israel. They have no loyalty to the country they live in, it's ungrateful and hypocritical.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)




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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

EpicSquats said:


> I think if Israel was able to, they would wipe the Palestinians off the map and claim self-defence.


But if they really wanted to they could? it seems they just dont because they don't want to upset the rest of the world anymore than what they allready are doing.

Where as if Hamas could do so i think they would, regardless of what the rest of the world would think.

Again, Im not on either side i'm just saying what i perceive from Sky News.


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

Conscript said:


>


Ah mate, don't bring that clueless bell end into it. Nobody takes him seriously. He would argue black was white if he could get his face on TV.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

MR RIGSBY said:


> Ah mate, don't bring that clueless bell end into it. Nobody takes him seriously. He would argue black was white if he could get his face on TV.


He speaks the truth though, warts and all.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

BettySwallocks said:


> But if they really wanted to they could? it seems they just dont because they don't want to upset the rest of the world anymore than what they allready are doing.
> 
> Where as if Hamas could do so i think they would, regardless of what the rest of the world would think.
> 
> Again, Im not on either side i'm just saying what i perceive from Sky News.


I think Israel wants to have it's cake and eat it- play the victim while victimising Palestine. If Israel went all out killing Palestinian civilians at random in a genocide, the countries who stand by silently and watch or support them would be forced to tell them to stop, so instead they do what they're doing now, claim Hamas are attacking them and kill huge numbers of civilians in retaliation when really they're just trying to slowly kill the Palestinians off or flee their land.


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

Conscript said:


> He speaks the truth though, warts and all.


Will just have to agree to disagree mate, he changes his tune every week.


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

EpicSquats said:


> I think Israel wants to have it's cake and eat it- play the victim while victimising Palestine. If Israel went all out killing Palestinian civilians at random in a genocide, the countries who stand by silently and watch or support them would be forced to tell them to stop, so instead they do what they're doing now, claim Hamas are attacking them and kill huge numbers of civilians in retaliation when really they're just trying to slowly kill the Palestinians off or flee their land.


But again... If the boot was on the other foot and Hamas had the fire power the Israelis do, do you not think they would completely wipe Israel out? Civillians as well?


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

MR RIGSBY said:


> Will just have to agree to disagree mate, he changes his tune every week.


Not regarding Palestine he doesn't.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

BettySwallocks said:


> But again... If the boot was on the other foot and Hamas had the fire power the Israelis do, do you not think they would completely wipe Israel out? Civillians as well?


Yes probably, to get their land back and not feel threatened by Israel anymore.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

EpicSquats said:


> Yes probably, to get their land back and not feel threatened by Israel anymore.


They never had these problems between Jews and Muslims when it was Palestine governing the land, maybe that says something about the nature of those who want to wipe the other out, and those who were just happy to share their land before.


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## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

BettySwallocks said:


> But again... If the boot was on the other foot and Hamas had the fire power the Israelis do, do you not think they would completely wipe Israel out? Civillians as well?


Yes, they probably would. It's an irrelevance though as they don't and never will have the capability. Israel, on the other hand, have been slowly wiping out the Palestinians over the past few decades. They do just as much as they believe the international community, or more importantly their US bank-rollers, will turn a blind eye to.

The IRA might well have aspired to wiping out the British, if they had the means, but we didn't go blanket bombing swathes of Ireland every time they set off a bomb.


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## Kjetil1234 (Jun 10, 2014)

I'm on the civilians side. **** the government


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

Ian_Montrose said:


> Yes, they probably would. It's an irrelevance though as they don't and never will have the capability. Israel, on the other hand, have been slowly wiping out the Palestinians over the past few decades. They do just as much as they believe the international community, or more importantly their US bank-rollers, will turn a blind eye to.
> 
> *The IRA might well have aspired to wiping out the British, if they had the means, but we didn't go blanket bombing swathes of Ireland every time they set off a bomb*.


A very good and thought provoking way of looking at it actually.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

BettySwallocks said:


> @zak007 It's clear to see you're passionate on this subject so you seem a good person to ask...
> 
> What do you think would happen if Hamas had the fire power the Israelis have?
> 
> ...


Before i answer this, i would like you to answer me this:

Is america split up england in half, occupied your land for more than 50 years, cut off your fresh water supply, stole your resources, detained and assaulted people in parts of england and the scots which would be termed "settlers" came to your house and kicked you out and took your house with the scottish army backing them and turning a blind eye to the english peoples views if this continued for 50 years where you continually lose more land, air strikes occur every other month and every few years a full blown military assault if you had the weapons to obliterate scotland would you do so?


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

zak007 said:


> Before i answer this, i would like you to answer me this:
> 
> Is america split up england in half, occupied your land for more than 50 years, cut off your fresh water supply, stole your resources, detained and assaulted people in parts of england and the scots which would be termed "settlers" came to your house and kicked you out and took your house with the scottish army backing them and turning a blind eye to the english peoples views if this continued for 50 years where you continually lose more land, air strikes occur every other month and every few years a full blown military assault if you had the weapons to obliterate scotland would you do so?


Not indiscriminately, I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing i'd caused the death of a single child.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

BettySwallocks said:


> Not indiscriminately, I wouldn't be able to live with myself knowing i'd caused the death of a single child.


Your lying to yourself, when the time came and that happened, when your family is humiliated, kicked out of their homes, no food on the table, then your house is destroyed in a air strike and your family murdered by the oppressors you would think differently.

The palestinians themselves never call for the obliteration of israel not once! All they have wanted was to be treated fairly and have their own state.

Going back to the original question, I believe palestine wouldnt do it, they would kill the opressors and higher ups and if that included woman in children I believe they would PROBABLY do it.

Now is it justified? Well theres 2 sides of the coin, its been happening to them but if they done it back, America would instantly attack them without question.


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

zak007 said:


> Your lying to yourself, when the time came and that happened, when your family is humiliated, kicked out of their homes, no food on the table, then your house is destroyed in a air strike and your family murdered by the oppressors you would think differently.
> 
> The palestinians themselves never call for the obliteration of israel not once! All they have wanted was to be treated fairly and have their own state.
> 
> ...


I dont think you can ever justify killing children no matter what the circumstances are to be honest


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## GGLynch89 (Mar 6, 2014)

BettySwallocks said:


> Just an anonymous poll.
> 
> I understand it can be a touchy subject for some so no need to give reasons why you back one side over the other If you dont wish.
> 
> ...


Which side has oreos?


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

BettySwallocks said:


> I dont think you can ever justify killing children no matter what the circumstances are to be honest


yes you cannot justify it, but the point i'm trying to make is this:

Israel has been doing this for years, not just killing children but also using banned chemical weapons such as phosphorous bombs which severly burn people in range however no-one does anything!

If it was to happen your mother and father then your children were killed you would be thinking differently.

Just to reiterate- even with all this, the palestinian people have never said publicly on video that we should kill israeli woman and children.

On the other side of the wall, israeli goverment officials have openly said on their twitter, facebook and in interviews mother and woman should be killed.

Its not fair at all.


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

zak007 said:


> yes you cannot justify it, but the point i'm trying to make is this:
> 
> Israel has been doing this for years, not just killing children but also using banned chemical weapons such as phosphorous bombs which severly burn people in range however no-one does anything!
> 
> ...


Well Israeli Government are a set of d1cks for killing civillian women and children and opressing the people of Palestine.

But I also do believe given the chance Hamas would wipe Israel of the face of the earth all civillians included, In my view also making them a set of d1cks.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

BettySwallocks said:


> Well Israeli Government are a set of d1cks for killing civillian women and children and opressing the people of Palestine.
> 
> But I also do believe given the chance Hamas would wipe Israel of the face of the earth all civillians included, In my view also making them a set of d1cks.


They never done so in 1948, they most likely wouldn't do so now.

I would start a thread n explain the situation in palestine/israel and give an example as scotland/england what they would do but i feel most would not be honest

Also most palestinian people being muslims and sunni muslims, the quran teaches if they are to kill one unjustly it is if they have killed all of mankind. And I believe they would not do such a thing.


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## 31205 (Jan 16, 2013)

Don't care. Nothing to do with me.


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## DeskSitter (Jan 28, 2013)

I'll read this tonight, building stud work at the moment


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

With two extremes of religion living on the same patch it will never amount to peace

Religion did have its place in society and formed many rules of today - however many many years ago in the age of interned - cyber laws - banking - carbon dating , gene therapy , satellites and telecommunications , space exploration , unmanned planet landings . Medical advancements one still believes in god or a god or whatever.

It seriously bemuses me to think so many of the worlds population pray 5 x per day - let region dictate dress, eating and living habits ect and that's on both sides of the equitation as look at the orthodox jews backwards and forwards their heads go muttering and banging their heads against a brick wall ???

Personally I find many religions to be extreme ones - and I think there is no place for religions practiced to extremes on today's society- especially when so much of the teachings / theories/ beliefs from the biblical ages and times have been proven wrong / untrue time and time again.


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## StillTraining (May 7, 2012)

C4 News hit the nail on the head


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## 222 (Feb 7, 2014)

Tonk007 said:


> Israel are plain & simple murders/terrorists who should be wiped off the planet
> 
> hitler was right, jews are pure evil scum, how anyone could justify the atrocities they have comitted in palestine
> 
> intenionally killing innocent civillions including young children is beyond belief




You OK @Tonk007


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## 222 (Feb 7, 2014)

You just talk bullsh*t, i seriously hope you don't live in the UK with your views on the country.

@Tonk007


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

222 said:


> View attachment 155574
> 
> 
> View attachment 155575
> ...


Lol probably just an arm chair Jihadist.


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## Tonk007 (Jan 1, 2012)

222 said:


> View attachment 155574
> 
> 
> View attachment 155575
> ...


i was born here & live here, so what your saying is its ok for countries like uk/usa inc israel to occupy & murder

innocent civillions in muslim countries & no one bats an eye lid, yet if it was the muslims comitting the atrocties

only then its a problem, your just a sick evil **** who's trying to justify what israel are doing


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## Tonk007 (Jan 1, 2012)

WrightStar said:


> The Jews for years were being unlawfully pushed out of their homeland, so it's fantastic that ever since they've rightfully got it back that they won't take one piece of **** from Hamas.
> 
> They're roughly 4% of the American population, yet are responsible for approximately 40% of the US' wealth. I for one am glad that such a minority will always have the backing of the worlds biggest super power.


both the usa/israel are the real terrorists


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## skinnnyfat (Feb 26, 2012)

Nothing like an Ad hominem attack to advertise a lack of intelligence.


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## 222 (Feb 7, 2014)

Tonk007 said:


> i was born here & live here, so what your saying is its ok for countries like uk/usa inc israel to occupy & murder
> 
> innocent civillions in muslim countries & no one bats an eye lid, yet if it was the muslims comitting the atrocties
> 
> only then its a problem, your just a sick evil **** who's trying to justify what israel are doing


Go on then pal, show me evidence for my support of Israel or what their doing?

Idiot. Ps don't bad mouth my country


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## Tonk007 (Jan 1, 2012)

222 said:


> Go on then pal, show me evidence for my support of Israel or what their doing?
> 
> Idiot. Ps don't bad mouth my country


**** you & your country hows that ?


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

Tonk007 said:


> **** you & your country hows that ?


You know what to do if you dont like it.

I hear ISIS are still recruiting.


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## DeskSitter (Jan 28, 2013)

Sigma said:


> Despite all the bitching by western media about russia, RT do seem to have the best and unbiased sources when it comes to the middle east conflict and the fact that ordinary people despite which side of the border they reside in, don't want war and just want to live their life like everyone here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My sentiments as well, very good post. Glad people see it for what it is. As I've said at times we're dealing with a small group of fundamentalist Jews - Zionists. Zionism really has no roots in Jewry, it was coined by the Rothchild's - rich aristocratic banker Jews mad with money and power. It's basically a very warped fundamentalist, intolerant ideology. It's a political movement which exalts Jewry whilst encouraging the attack and degradation of gentiles. It's a virus, and it has very little to do with Judaism and its scriptures. You don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist, this is what makes it a political movement. Were it not for the Balfour Deceleration and the calculated land grab masterminded by Baron Rothchild, the Arab lands being fought over today would not be in dispute and the Jews and Muslims would be living happily side by side as they were before this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Rothschild,_2nd_Baron_Rothschild

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that *nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.*[1]


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

DeskSitter said:


> Zionism really has no roots in Jewry, it was coined by the Rothchild's - rich aristocratic banker Jews mad with money and power.


It has no roots in Jewry but was coined by banker Jews. OK then. As far as I'm concerned any Jew who believes Israel has the right to exist is a Zionist, and there are plenty of those. Hardly a small group.


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## DeskSitter (Jan 28, 2013)

EpicSquats said:


> It has no roots in Jewry but was coined by banker Jews. OK then.


Because essentially it's about maintaining power and control, not about religious practice or customs. I'm also careful in what I say, because I don't want to upset people that are Jewish and who are peaceful and reasonable people. It's only my interpretation I'm not saying I'm right


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## spod (Mar 25, 2010)

MR RIGSBY said:


> Ah mate, don't bring that clueless bell end into it. Nobody takes him seriously. He would argue black was white if he could get his face on TV.


Absolutely disagree.

People are led like sheep into thinking Galloway's some kind of nut. If people would actually listen to the guy i doubt many of the sane and rational beings among us would disagree too much with the bulk of his arguments.

He's truly passionate about what he speaks about, and will stand by and defend his point of view. He's one of the only politicians i'd take any heed of whatsoever and i wish we had more like him in this country.


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## Sigma (Apr 13, 2014)

BettySwallocks said:


> You know what to do if you dont like it.
> 
> I hear ISIS are still recruiting.


The guy makes comments that would make any fascist proud and yet if anyone disrespects his culture with sweeping generalizing they are ignorant and wrong. Very ironic.

He made hateful comments about all romanians being filthy before and I got the same reply '****c you and all Romanians then'.

I generally just try to ignore all his comments now, as I know i'll just feel stupider after reading them


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## 222 (Feb 7, 2014)

Tonk007 said:


> **** you & your country hows that ?


See you can't show evidence, as I've never once supported Israel, however I did say all killing should stop.

I'll pay for your flight. Do one you gimp


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

spod said:


> Absolutely disagree.
> 
> People are led like sheep into thinking Galloway's some kind of nut. If people would actually listen to the guy i doubt many of the sane and rational beings among us would disagree too much with the bulk of his arguments.
> 
> He's truly passionate about what he speaks about, and will stand by and defend his point of view. He's one of the only politicians i'd take any heed of whatsoever and i wish we had more like him in this country.


I know exactly what he is, he seizes on any issue which is anti - establishment and might win him some votes amongst minorities.

He opposed Saddam Hussein for years, as soon as the USA turned on Saddam he was his best mate. He supports Bashar Assad for the simple reason the Americans/UK are against him.

He likes to think of himself as the voice of justice but anyone with half a brain can see through him. You're entitled to your opinion mate, but dig a bit deeper and you'll see what Galloway is.


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## spod (Mar 25, 2010)

MR RIGSBY said:


> I know exactly what he is, he seizes on any issue which is anti - establishment and might win him some votes amongst minorities.
> 
> He opposed Saddam Hussein for years, as soon as the USA turned on Saddam he was his best mate. He supports Bashar Assad for the simple reason the Americans/UK are against him.
> 
> He likes to think of himself as the voice of justice but anyone with half a brain can see through him. You're entitled to your opinion mate, but dig a bit deeper and you'll see what Galloway is.


Galloway has support from minority groups because he has argued against military intervention in the Middle East. Judging by the sh1t state of that area at the moment, a sensible man may argue that he was right all along.

I don't believe being critical of the government is anti establishment. I believe criticism of government policies is an absolutely critical function of any MP. I believe our government should be called to account for their decisions, especially those which involve killing foreigners in their home countries and sending the brave man and women in our armed forces thousands of miles away to, potentially, their deaths.

I think neither you or i have any insight as to 'how he thinks of himself'. To say he was Saddam Hussein's 'best mate' is ridiculous and just one of the media led bullsh1t stories that those with only half a brain cannot see through.

I think this clip is very telling:






Having been slandered by the media and various American politicians, he went of his own free will to the US Senate and tore them a new a55hole, exposing their claims as false and making them look stupid. The geezer's got more conviction and more balls than the rest of our political class altogether.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2014)

Its nice to see that most intelligent people can see through brainwashing pro-Israel western media. What their doing is disgusting and has made people question did the Nazis know something the rest of us didn't when they decided to eliminate the Jews.

The Zionist establishment around the world control everything in one way or another and now feel they can kill innocent people with impunity from the international community, disgusting!

Here's a thought, imagine what the world would be like now if the holocaust didn't happen..... (not that I support killing millions) but makes you wonder.


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## Tonk007 (Jan 1, 2012)

cooltt said:


> Its nice to see that most intelligent people can see through brainwashing pro-Israel western media. What their doing is disgusting and has made people question did the Nazis know something the rest of us didn't when they decided to eliminate the Jews.
> 
> The Zionist establishment around the world control everything in one way or another and now feel they can kill innocent people with impunity from the international community, disgusting!
> 
> ...


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

cooltt said:


> Its nice to see that most intelligent people can see through brainwashing pro-Israel western media. What their doing is disgusting and has made people question did the Nazis know something the rest of us didn't when they decided to eliminate the Jews.
> 
> The Zionist establishment around the world control everything in one way or another and now feel they can kill innocent people with impunity from the international community, disgusting!
> 
> Here's a thought, imagine what the world would be like now if the holocaust didn't happen..... (not that I support killing millions) but makes you wonder.


If the Holocaust didn't happen you'd have Jews in control of the US federal reserve bank. Oh wait, they're in control of it now.


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

do the jews like us brits never met one before,i know the greeks do lol


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## lostwars (Nov 7, 2008)

dalboy said:


> This has nothing to do with Israel against the palestinians.
> 
> There are over 1 million muslims living in Israel
> 
> ...


im not quite sure were your history of paLestine starts but it was well before the state of israel was founded after WW2

after WW2 the british army couldnt decide who and what land they would give to each side the jews and the arabs, they left the keys under the mat and headed home unwilling to broker a map for both sides

after the six day war between israel and many of the arab armies israel took control of jerusalem and the temple mount and seized lands includung the golan heights of syria

a fact learned here was that israel knew that the arab armies would never again have a chance to put paid to the new state of israel, if im not mistaken they are the 4th best armned army in the world per head of population, they also have allies in the arab world such as saudia arabia, and the super power USA

gaza is an occupied state, its also the worlds largest prison in and outdoor setting, 27miles by 7 miles in with every border crossing manned by israeli soldiers happy to intimidate and pen the palestinians in like chickens

after over 50 UN sanctions againist israel for its ill treatment of the ppl of palestine in gaza and the west bank it still acts with impunity

the level of unemployment, desperation and hoplessness lead to hamas taking power, if we were to live in such ****ty circumstances im sure we would like to launch a giant rocket our oppressors way too

israel is taking advantage of the situation in the middle east at present to abuse the palestinians,there abunch of cowards killing women and kids with theRE tanks guns and warplanes, real herioc of them

FREEDOM TO PALESTINE....


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

so if we break this upset/conflict down to world war 3 ,what countries would be involved, as in who would be fighting who ?


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

vetran said:


> so if we break this upset/conflict down to world war 3 ,what countries would be involved, as in who would be fighting who ?


israel and america one side

Russia, china backing but wouldnt send soldiers, possibly iran and maybe pakistan having some involvement.


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

Let's say if this was happening in the west, would it have taken almost 50 years to resolve.

Don't get me started on this.


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## jay_112 (Apr 21, 2014)




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## jay_112 (Apr 21, 2014)




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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)




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## jason7474utd (Oct 12, 2010)

Both as bad as each other isreal have oppressed and pushed back the palestines but then hamas the milatery arm of the palestine government fires rockets into isreal from the top of hospitals and flats so they dont have much regard for there own people.

a lot of two wrongs dont make a right as well ie 3 isreal teenagers abducted and murderd so they abduct and murder 1 palestine ect ect


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2014)

All animals. Leave them to it and let bombs decide. Neither country would give a [email protected] if we were being attacked by religious story book believers.


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## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

Palestine for me


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

romper stomper said:


> really - how come the Brits were in a position to give away Palestine ??


http://freedom-articles.toolsforfreedom.com/the-rothschilds-own-israel/


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

It amazes me that people try to even defend Israel.

It's illegally occupying Palestine, forcing them to live in an open air prison, denying them basic human rights, controlly Gaza's borders, food sanctions..etc

It's due to the utter frustration of the oppressed palestinians that Hamas fire rockets into Israel, and i for one don't blame them.

Only in the eyes of the pro Israeli media are Hamas made out to be terrorists, yet they are only doing what any oppressed nation would be doing.

I'm sure the people who voted team Israel, would find it perfectly acceptable, if someone came into their house, threw them and their family on the street, started living there and then stripped them of all their rights to do anything about it???

I'm pretty sure you would change your tune pretty quick!!

As Norman Finkelstein( A Jew ) said : Why should these Palestinians, who have lived in Jerusalem for hundreds of years, be evicted from their homes so that Jews from Brooklyn can live in them?"


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## geeby112 (Mar 15, 2008)

How can you be a terrorist defending your country :/

Funny how media twists things? A few Americans went to Israel to fight yet when a Muslim does the same they get branded as a terrorist.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

Israel didn't exist 70 years ago. Palestine is a nation mentioned in that area in the 10th pharaonic dynasty (3-4,000 years ago. I guess I'd be peeved if I was a Palestine and the Jews after being treated so poorly in nazi Germany then moved into my country with the help of the Americans and started doing to me what the nazi regime did to them.

That's my short answer! Palestine has the right every square inch of is reals borders as far as I'm concerned


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## Jamestuala (Apr 16, 2014)

Flip a coin and the losers move


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

some ****e on this thread....Because the media is pro-Zionist, it never reports the provocation of the Palestine's by the stinking ****ing Zionists....Zionists need wiped of the earth once and for all....but the American and British Governments are ****ing ****s who wont do anything worthwile to stop it.....good to see some Broadcasters telling the truth (Jon Snow the other day)....Now I say Zionist as I think blaming Jews is absolutely wrong....was at a Pro-Palestine march last week, which had some Rabbi's leading it.....but anyone who supports the Zionist Government of Israel, needs a ****ing bullet


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## Jamestuala (Apr 16, 2014)

barsnack said:


> some ****e on this thread....Because the media is pro-Zionist, it never reports the provocation of the Palestine's by the stinking ****ing Zionists....Zionists need wiped of the earth once and for all....but the American and British Governments are ****ing ****s who wont do anything worthwile to stop it.....good to see some Broadcasters telling the truth (Jon Snow the other day)....Now I say Zionist as I think blaming Jews is absolutely wrong....was at a Pro-Palestine march last week, which had some Rabbi's leading it.....but anyone who supports the Zionist Government of Israel, needs a ****ing bullet


 What's the difference between zionists and Palestinians?


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Jamestuala said:


> What's the difference between zionists and Palestinians?


what kind of question is that


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## Jamestuala (Apr 16, 2014)

barsnack said:


> what kind of question is that


A rhetorical one


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Jamestuala said:


> A rhetorical one


quite a **** one....and reading your previous comment on letting them toss for the winner....for that reason, im out


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## Jamestuala (Apr 16, 2014)

barsnack said:


> quite a **** one....and reading your previous comment on letting them toss for the winner....for that reason, im out


Haha that's understandable still can't agree with the question being **** when two sides want the same thing and won't stop until they get it what can you do


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Delhi said:


> It's a really, really tough call to make but I don't think I am on either side. I see wrongs on both sides if I am honest. On one hand it's easy to call Hamas terrorists but realistically what do you want the Palestinians to do? Sit back and be removed from their homes and be bombed. Hamas is only fighting back with weapons that may do some damage. I doubt anyone on this board would not do similar if they had to watch friends and family being killed by a foreign invader.
> 
> But then I also look at some of the Israeli tactics and think that they are giving ample warning and are not in general wanting to strike as they are but need to do something if rockets continue to be fired at them. I mean they did give lots of warnings to Hamas to stop firing the rockets or they would have no choice but to start a ground offensive.
> 
> I am only scratching the surface here as the issues are deep rooted on both sides and there is no simple solution, our only hope is that as human beings on both sides we someday recognise the futility of killing others. But that day won't happen in my lifetime I doubt. Real shame for everyone suffering out there on both sides.


have you seen how they warn that they are sending over an air strike...by sending a smaller bomber...hard to believe but its sadly true.....people don't understand that America helped build and continue to triple aid to maintain Israel Iron Dome Defence....so when people talk about Hamas rockets, they have very very chance of doing damage....sadly the situation wont be resolved in my life time


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Jamestuala said:


> Haha that's understandable still can't agree with the question being **** when two sides want the same thing and won't stop until they get it what can you do


they have two separate arguments....you could ask difference between Juadism and Zionist....but agree neither will stop...but the Zionist Governmnet are in the wrong, and that means hell for rest of the world if it keeps continuing


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## josh__21 (Jun 24, 2010)

Sk1nny said:


> Israel didn't exist 70 years ago. Palestine is a nation mentioned in that area in the 10th pharaonic dynasty (3-4,000 years ago. I guess I'd be peeved if I was a Palestine and the Jews after being treated so poorly in nazi Germany then moved into my country with the help of the Americans and started doing to me what the nazi regime did to them.
> 
> That's my short answer! Palestine has the right every square inch of is reals borders as far as I'm concerned


Isreal was there many years before palestine was. The romans conquered isreal and renamed it palestine if you want to go back in history to say whos land it is


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

Both as bad as each other now so neither can take the moral high ground.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

Having been watching pictures from news this evening you got to question what Israel is up to when they bomb the only power plant. I am guessing that will mean millions without power now. Added to the fact of little water, food, medical supplies and probably petrol and other vital supplies it is hard to justify this. These actions are impacting EVERY person and can't be simply labeled as targeted at Hamas.

I mean what next? No clothes, no houses, no phones. You can't treat millions of people like vermin. All this from a people who were once persecuted by nazi Germany? Surely they need to show a bit more restraint and humanity. It's getting to the point where I think another country needs to declare war on them in the name of humanity. There is no religion I know of that would support such treatment of humans.


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## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Delhi said:


> Having been watching pictures from news this evening you got to question what Israel is up to when they bomb the only power plant. I am guessing that will mean millions without power now. Added to the fact of little water, food, medical supplies and probably petrol and other vital supplies it is hard to justify this. These actions are impacting EVERY person and can't be simply labeled as targeted at Hamas.
> 
> I mean what next? No clothes, no houses, no phones. You can't treat millions of people like vermin. All this from a people who were once persecuted by nazi Germany? Surely they need to show a bit more restraint and humanity. It's getting to the point where I think another country needs to declare war on them in the name of humanity. There is no religion I know of that would support such treatment of humans.


If anyone declares war on Israel, they'll have to deal with the USA. Israel controls the USA and Israel gets a lot of money from them.


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## Sk1nny (Jun 5, 2010)

josh__21 said:


> Isreal was there many years before palestine was. The romans conquered isreal and renamed it palestine if you want to go back in history to say whos land it is


Erm no it wasn't. That land may have been fought over and owned by many including us but Palestine were there first and really if the palestines held it legally pre 1940's in modern history then how can the world ignore the genicide the Jews commited there? Over 750,000 Muslims and Christians killed by Jews in that area in a modern age!

It's like the French deciding to take us back again as they owned us before world councils existed. Just pop over the borders, commit genicide, declare yourself a state and the world turns a blind eye?

There's no easy solution to their war but the blood is on the hands of isreal of this there is no doubt


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

I would like to help Hamas out so i will send some of these over to them





do more damage than their rockets


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## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> They never done so in 1948, they most likely wouldn't do so now.
> 
> I would start a thread n explain the situation in palestine/israel and give an example as scotland/england what they would do but i feel most would not be honest
> 
> Also most palestinian people being muslims and sunni muslims, the quran teaches if they are to kill one unjustly it is if they have killed all of mankind. And I believe they would not do such a thing.


Unjustly? This is the same book that justifies the killing of unbelievers.. There is over 100 verses in the Quran telling muslims to kill unbelievers.


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## sir_N (Dec 27, 2013)

State of the art war heads vs stones


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## Tonk007 (Jan 1, 2012)

One things for sure at least Hamas are not cowards unlike the evil Jews

& will fight till the end with what little ammunition they have

Jews are nothing but cowards picking on the weak & defensless

Let's see how tough they are without the USA backing them


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## sir_N (Dec 27, 2013)

Israel are targeting innocent civilians / woman and children


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> State of the art war heads vs stones


 and fireworks

I personally do not like Zionists and have great sympathies for the Palestinians - however You have to wonder about Hamas - they have caused this latest conflict by their constant Rocket fire - 1'000's of rockets fired at Israel with virtually no affect - a few tin buildings , outhouses and an outside toilet destroyed - with virtually no casualties- they get warned - still carry on - end result- what is happening today - and the kill ratio 10 - 1 - worth it ???? Israel are just looking for an excuse and Hamas hands one to them on a plate !!!!!


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## josh__21 (Jun 24, 2010)

Sk1nny said:


> Erm no it wasn't. That land may have been fought over and owned by many including us but Palestine were there first and really if the palestines held it legally pre 1940's in modern history then how can the world ignore the genicide the Jews commited there? Over 750,000 Muslims and Christians killed by Jews in that area in a modern age!
> 
> It's like the French deciding to take us back again as they owned us before world councils existed. Just pop over the borders, commit genicide, declare yourself a state and the world turns a blind eye?
> 
> There's no easy solution to their war but the blood is on the hands of isreal of this there is no doubt


In 1100bce that area was know as united kingdom for isreal. Then the romans invade around 100 ce and renamed it palestine. I dont agree with either side hamas as said in the past he wanta isreal wiped from the earth and isreal are going overboard.

People have been fighting over this land for 1000s of years and i dont think we will ever see peace there.


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## jsing2010 (Feb 27, 2014)

I side with Humanity...can't find it though, still looking, nope can't find it just some soulless bastards.


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## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

I've been struggling with this one quite a lot - most of my friends are pro-palestine. I tend to agree to a point....but having thought it all through as best I can based on the available evidence...

I utterly reject the idea of picking a "side".

Israel's declared and utterly deplorable expansion into the west bank has no basis in Law or Morals of any kind and is, in my opinion, indefensible. The violent eviction of Palestinians and the bullying (at best) tactics employed by what is now a very significant force in military terms, should be condemned internationally as it is when other people do the same thing. There is no argument that supports the actions of Israel in that context.

However - Hamas is equally to be condemned; they do not have anywhere close to the firepower or military expertise necessary to take on Israel in any meaningful way. So they are playing a political game by forcing Israel's hand (somewhat) in order to turn the world against Israel (and yes Israel are tacitly complicit in this too by rising to the bait) - however they are doing this at great cost to their own people. Hamas have repeatedly and publicly declared that they seek genocide for Jewish people. If Hamas had the firepower that Israel have; there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that they would attack Israel with teh specific intent of killing everyone. As in - they would specifically target women, children, the elderly, the infirm...everyone. And if they could - they would go further afield and keep going until there were literally no Jews left in the world. Hamas are a repugnant organisation and are to be held equally accountable for everything that is happening right now.

Both the Bible and Koran contain multiple passages decreeing violence and death to various people; based on a whole bunch of seemingly arbitrary variables. Shouting about the horribly violent bits in the Koran is pointless - it is no worse than the Old Testament. In fact ..the Old Testament is arguably worse. Discussions about texts that are hundreds of years old are utterly pointless in this context; what matters is how they are interpreted and used. Hamas is unequivocally using (and abusing) the Koran to justify it's actions. I have no idea if Israel are using the Bible to justify theirs,.,,but it seems less likely... What matters of course is - both sides are justifying their actions via complex and frankly questionable points - the bottom line is this:

Neither the Palestinian nor the Israeli people caught in the middle are doing this. These are the actions of ruling bodies backed up by military firepower. Hamas is relatively poorly equipped (although still well equipped enough to cause damage) - Israel could literally destroy Palestine completely in a week.

If the international community is to do anything (and it really should) it should be sanctions against both countries. Israel does not deserve the support it has from teh West. It is a bullying nation..regardless of provocation it should not be doing what it is doing now and it certainly shouldn't do it with impunity. Hamas does not deserve support either. It is a genocidal and utterly insane organisation that seems happy to discard it's own people.

I will not pick a side. I am absolutely with the people stuck in the middle - I don't give a fvck whether they're Israeli or Palestinian. They are being used as pawns.


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

I think the top and bottom of the story is this...

Hamas are a set of cvnts, The Israeli government are a set of cvnts. The civillians are the victims in all of this.


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## josephbloggs (Sep 29, 2013)

kuju said:


> I've been struggling with this one quite a lot - most of my friends are pro-palestine. I tend to agree to a point....but having thought it all through as best I can based on the available evidence...
> 
> I utterly reject the idea of picking a "side".
> 
> ...


the first bit bolded is not actually true anymore. if you go to hamas's website there is no mention of wiping jews/israel out, and they have for years now stated they would accept a 2 state solution based on 1967 borders. what the entire world including the US publicly calls for.

the second bolded is just ridiculous. one, regardless of what hamas would like to do, they will never have the hardware to do what you suggest they would , and even if they did suddenly acquire the firepower to compete with israel, the US and the rest of the west would never stand by and watch them do to israel what israel is currently doing to them.

it's alright saying "if" they could they would target women, children, old etc...the fact is israel actually are currently doing this!

and calling for sanctions against palestine? , have you seen the system and conditions the palestinains are already being forced to survive in by israel? they are already being completely strangled economically by their occupiers and you want the west to add to this with sanctions. you must be smoking crack.


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## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

Hamas has declared itself a Muslim supremacist organisation and they are absolutely up for removing Jews based on the idea that it leads to redemption....

Hamas is also equally guilty of ignoring ceasefires and peace efforts. (Although right now I'd argue that Israel is far more guilty of that).

You're right in saying that the rest of the world would never let Hamas do what Israel is doing and yes, that's completely unacceptable..which was kind of (part of) my point (although perhaps not very well expressed). However I was talking abotu what they *would* do, given the opportunity, rather than what they could get away with. The point being that Hamas are really no better.

A more important point was that Hamas may be in charge in Palestine; but I think it's important to distinguish between Hamas and Palestine in the sense that Hamas are up for a fight, regardless of the casualties. The rest of the Palestinian people perhaps less so......

You're right that Israeli forces are targeting the vulnerable; it's perhaps worth bearing in mind that it would be very difficult not to do that in such a massively heavily populated area. Which I guess is another point....Israel is fighting an all out war using tactics (ie bomb/missile strikes) that cannot do anything BUT cause massive civilian casualties. Too many people in too small an area.

Perhaps what I should have said with regard to sanctions is sanctions against Hamas itself.

I get your points - and I think it's fair to say I could have phrased things better - the main point i'm making is this though; the war is being fought between Hamas and Israeli forces. The casualties are the people stuck in the middle...both Palestinian and Israeli. Israel have the edge in terms of both offensive and defensive capability so morally..they should be limiting their strikes to strictly military targets with much smaller scale fire. They have the ability to do that - although there would still obviously be some civilian casualties. Equally - Hamas is lobbing thousands of missiles at Israel but with virtually no effect due to teh Iron Dome. So why are they doing it? The missiles have little or no effect..other than to provoke Israel into insane counter-measures...helped along no doubt by Israel's existing and deplorable attitude to Palestine generally.

I think the international community should step in against BOTH Hamas and Israel; in the interests of the people stuck in the middle. In short...neither side is defensible in their actions frankly....but I distinguish between teh people of Palestine and Hamas itself because, based on what's happening..I don't believe Hamas care that much more about the Palestinian people than Israel do.


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## josephbloggs (Sep 29, 2013)

kuju said:


> Hamas has declared itself a Muslim supremacist organisation and they are absolutely up for removing Jews based on the idea that it leads to redemption....
> 
> Hamas is also equally guilty of ignoring ceasefires and peace efforts. (Although right now I'd argue that Israel is far more guilty of that).
> 
> ...


respect for the reasoned response, even though i don't agree with any of the content of your posts.

i don't see with the situation as it is ,how hamas can be labelled terrorists . if france decided tomorrow that they were going to take large chunks of the UK and move their own people in, i'm pretty sure they would get a bit more back in retaliation than a ton of ineffective rockets. hamas is simply resisting israeli forceful occupation with their own force albeit very limited.

do you think israel will be swayed by the peaceful approach? this was israel's response in 2012 to the Palestinian Authority's diplomatic approach, in trying to get a voice within the UN.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20552391

"Israel has authorised the construction of 3,000 more housing units in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank, according to Israeli officials.

It is also speeding up the processing of 1,000 planning permissions.

*The decision comes a day after a vote at the UN General Assembly upgraded the Palestinians' status at the UN to that of non-member observer state*."

so hamas are terrorists for resisting by force, but any diplomatic attempt to engage the outside world by Palestinians is punished by israel accelerating their ethnic cleansing programme. damned if they do and damned if they don't.


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## Mal20729 (Mar 1, 2014)

Anyone else wonder what Michael Jordan does these days? God he was great wasn't he!


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> Unjustly? This is the same book that justifies the killing of unbelievers.. There is over 100 verses in the Quran telling muslims to kill unbelievers.


as do the bible and the torah, however thats a different subject and if you want to discuss it PM me.


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## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> as do the bible and the torah, however thats a different subject and if you want to discuss it PM me.


You cant use the quran saying "it teaches if they are to kill one unjustly it is if they have killed all of mankind" when MANY other verses in the Quran completely contradict that..

Qur'an 9:7-9-Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted.

Qur'an 9:12-14-Fight the disbelievers! Allah is on your side; he will give you victory.

Qur'an (5:51) Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.

Qur'an 9:5 Kill the nonbelievers wherever you find them.

Because of this and things written in the old testament, these two peoples will NEVER get on, this will always happen until one of them is completely out of the area unfortunately.


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## Delhi (Dec 8, 2005)

EpicSquats said:


> If anyone declares war on Israel, they'll have to deal with the USA. Israel controls the USA and Israel gets a lot of money from them.


You know there was a time when a small nation called the UK stood up against this sort of thing even if it meant falling out with friends. The UK should be leading the way no and telling Israel that it will no longer sit back and watch as they persecute millions. Afterall we stood up for them in their hour of need.

I know it won't happen but I would be proud to go to war I such circumstance rather than doing what the US tells us we should stand on the shoulders of giants and do what's right for humanity.


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## tommyc2k7 (Jun 7, 2013)

Delhi said:


> You know there was a time when a small nation called the UK stood up against this sort of thing even if it meant falling out with friends. The UK should be leading the way no and telling Israel that it will no longer sit back and watch as they persecute millions. Afterall we stood up for them in their hour of need.
> 
> I know it won't happen but I would be proud to go to war I such circumstance rather than doing what the US tells us we should stand on the shoulders of giants and do what's right for humanity.


Fat chance of that happening when we have a government with no balls. We even abstained from voting for a UN Inquiry into whether Israel is breaking international law last week (and this is just an inquiry, not about sanctions!)

UK (along with most of Europe) abstained, USA voted against.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> You cant use the quran saying "it teaches if they are to kill one unjustly it is if they have killed all of mankind" when MANY other verses in the Quran completely contradict that..
> 
> Qur'an 9:7-9-Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted.
> 
> ...


Well i was going to avoid it but lets go through these verses,

Qur'an 9:7-9-Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. - Has any muslim leader made a peacefull treaty with non muslims which is fair and just? As can be said for palestine/israel - Israel has never been true to their word, they say they want peace but do xyz.

Qur'an 9:12-14-Fight the disbelievers! Allah is on your side; he will give you victory. - This is not a sole verse, it is in context. It doesnt simply state fight random people on the street it can be used again for palestine/israel - fight the disbelievers and allah will give you victory. It has not happened yet, but it will one day mark my words, hopefully i'tll be in my lifetime if i'm lucky.

Qur'an (5:51) Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. - This doesnt refer to people in school, work etc. It refers to leaders where over the past 1400 years leaders have always said one thing but silently feel another and plot against you. Such an example like saddam hussain, he was once a good ally of the americans next they took him out.

Qur'an 9:5 Kill the nonbelievers wherever you find them. - This is referred in a war context, otherwise muslims would be going out daily on a kill spree.


----------



## EpicSquats (Mar 29, 2014)

Delhi said:


> You know there was a time when a small nation called the UK stood up against this sort of thing even if it meant falling out with friends. The UK should be leading the way no and telling Israel that it will no longer sit back and watch as they persecute millions. Afterall we stood up for them in their hour of need.
> 
> I know it won't happen but I would be proud to go to war I such circumstance rather than doing what the US tells us we should stand on the shoulders of giants and do what's right for humanity.


Britain gets dragged into wars that the USA wants- Iraq and Afghanistan for example. This is why Britain is called the 51st state of America, the USA tells us what to do.


----------



## Sigma (Apr 13, 2014)

SSJay said:


> You cant use the quran saying "it teaches if they are to kill one unjustly it is if they have killed all of mankind" when MANY other verses in the Quran completely contradict that..
> 
> Because of this and things written in the old testament, these two peoples will NEVER get on, this will always happen until one of them is completely out of the area unfortunately.


Or stop using words as an excuse to gain a false sense of superiority and entitlement over others. Religion is politics and is about manipulating ego.


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> Well i was going to avoid it but lets go through these verses,
> 
> Qur'an 9:7-9-Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. - Has any muslim leader made a peacefull treaty with non muslims which is fair and just? As can be said for palestine/israel - Israel has never been true to their word, they say they want peace but do xyz.
> 
> ...


*Stage 3 of jihad is where muslims are in the majority and go on the offensive trying to force people to convert. Fight the unbelievers until they pay the jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Of course it is war, that's my point Israel and palestine are at war and you are quoting the quran saying they wont kill unjustly, whereas I am saying they will as the quran allows this while at war. They can also use excuses like what is unjust to you is just to us.*

*You haven't really explained or justified any of those verses btw. From the jist of things all you have said is Israel are just as bad, I hope I am alive to see muslim victory, we cant be friends with leaders and killing is a war context.*


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

romper stomper said:


> and fireworks
> 
> I personally do not like Zionists and have great sympathies for the Palestinians - however You have to wonder about Hamas - they have caused this latest conflict by their constant Rocket fire - 1'000's of rockets fired at Israel with virtually no affect - a few tin buildings , outhouses and an outside toilet destroyed - with virtually no casualties- they get warned - still carry on - end result- what is happening today - and the kill ratio 10 - 1 - worth it ???? Israel are just looking for an excuse and Hamas hands one to them on a plate !!!!!


the pro Israel media (British and American News) report the rockets from Hamas, but they don't report the murder of Palestian children by Israel forces, the constant destroying of Palestians homes to make way for Jewish settlements...the prevention of food and water etc coming into Gaza by the Israel forces...and you wonder why they send rockets which do **** all over.....I wonder how many murders are carried out and other horrible crimes by Israel forces on the Palestians that doesn't get reported to the western world...moron


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## vetran (Oct 17, 2009)

wtf is god allowing all this sh*t to happen beats me,he needs to show himself and explain,if he comes to me tonight ile tell you whaat he said in the morning


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## Jamestuala (Apr 16, 2014)

No more child deaths


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> *Stage 3 of jihad is where muslims are in the majority and go on the offensive trying to force people to convert. Fight the unbelievers until they pay the jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. Of course it is war, that's my point Israel and palestine are at war and you are quoting the quran saying they wont kill unjustly, whereas I am saying they will as the quran allows this while at war. They can also use excuses like what is unjust to you is just to us.*
> 
> *You haven't really explained or justified any of those verses btw. From the jist of things all you have said is Israel are just as bad, I hope I am alive to see muslim victory, we cant be friends with leaders and killing is a war context.*


where is stage 3? If you want to discuss this more feel free to PM me, for now we will keep to the subject.


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## Bigh0121 (Jan 4, 2013)

Palestine all the way, Islam can never be defeated !


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## Bigh0121 (Jan 4, 2013)

SSJay said:


> You cant use the quran saying "it teaches if they are to kill one unjustly it is if they have killed all of mankind" when MANY other verses in the Quran completely contradict that..
> 
> Qur'an 9:7-9-Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted.
> 
> ...


Now lets write the quotes propperly you ****ing bitch:

Qur'an 9:7-9 -How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

Qur'an 9:12-14 And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.

Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.

Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people

Qur'an (5:51) - O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.

Qur'an 9:5 and when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> Well i was going to avoid it but lets go through these verses,
> 
> Qur'an 9:7-9-Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. - Has any muslim leader made a peacefull treaty with non muslims which is fair and just? As can be said for palestine/israel - Israel has never been true to their word, they say they want peace but do xyz.
> 
> ...


Any person who lets their lives be ruled by a book 1'000s of years old and with so many different and totally opposite interpretations - Is ?????

intelligent in this day and age ???


----------



## aman_21 (Jul 29, 2013)

cycle of violence, isreali has far superior weapons compared to Palestinian qassam rockets

Palestinians are deeekheads for putting their weapons caches inside hospitals and nearby schools ( reckless enderagerment ) - infact illegal to do this

Israel - deeekheads for hitting hospitals and schools even though weapons are there

However Israeli's do have plausible military targets, so its not systematic civilian targeting.

When ceasefire happens, deaths stop occurring, maybe Palestinians should get the fkin idea they should stop fighting - they are just killing themselves - suicide.

Israels should stop bein pr*cks about it sayin god told them to wage war.


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> When ceasefire happens, deaths stop occurring, maybe Palestinians should get the fkin idea they should stop fighting - they are just killing themselves - suicide.
> 
> Israels should stop bein pr*cks about it sayin god told them to wage war.


fully agree with that


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## Super -ingh (Aug 2, 2009)

im on neither side...whats happenin in palestine is very very wrong.

however a few points always get to me....muslims r protesting and going all out for free palestine...all of a sudden syria doesnt matter anymore even tho isis are killing 100x more ppl than israel? y r ppl not protesting at that? is that a case thst its more acceptable for a.muslim to kill another muslim as opposed to jewish killing a muslim?

no 2 look at how arab lands were aquired in history..through domination and conquering and converting.the ppl.of the land...if palestine had equal weapons or had help from neighbouring arab countries they would prob attempt to take isreal themselves


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

aman_21 said:


> cycle of violence, isreali has far superior weapons compared to Palestinian qassam rockets
> 
> Palestinians are deeekheads for putting their weapons caches inside hospitals and nearby schools ( reckless enderagerment ) - infact illegal to do this
> 
> ...


possibly one of the most retarded comments I have read on all my time on UKM.....and ive read some **** on here.....yeah im sure that UN School was hiding weapons of mass destruction or them kids blown up on the beach were concealing tommy guns in their shorts....****ing moron


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

@barsnack

Totally agree mate..sometimes I think 14 year olds must post on here. :wacko:


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

latblaster said:


> @barsnack
> 
> Totally agree mate..sometimes I think 14 year olds must post on here. :wacko:


it wouldn't be 14 year Old Palestinians, as they would be too busy ducking Israel rockets


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> no 2 look at how arab lands were aquired in history..through domination and conquering and converting.the ppl.of the land...if palestine had equal weapons or had help from neighbouring arab countries they would prob attempt to take isreal themselves


did they not group together and try that once ? and yes a whole 6 days !!

Israel/Zion will not be beaten now - too good - too much money - too much influence- too well trained - too fanatical - they will only be beaten by nuclear means.

Perhaps Adolf was ahead of his time ?? saw something coming the world did not ??


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## Super -ingh (Aug 2, 2009)

Adolf was nuts, he attempted to take the world over in his vision of the perfect aryan, blonde, blue eyes etc....

Israel/zion is too powerful, arab nations have had war with israel and lost before, i dont condone what israel do but i go by history and if you show arab/islamic occupied countries weakness, they will attempt to take your land. isreal where it is situated will always be at war with the countries around them, it will never end tbh unless they r nuked.


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## qwertyuk (Jul 18, 2014)

Super $ingh said:


> im on neither side...whats happenin in palestine is very very wrong.
> 
> however a few points always get to me....muslims r protesting and going all out for free palestine...all of a sudden syria doesnt matter anymore even tho isis are killing 100x more ppl than israel? y r ppl not protesting at that? is that a case thst its more acceptable for a.muslim to kill another muslim as opposed to jewish killing a muslim?
> 
> no 2 look at how arab lands were aquired in history..through domination and conquering and converting.the ppl.of the land...if palestine had equal weapons or had help from neighbouring arab countries they would prob attempt to take isreal themselves


agreed, some of you want to learn you history a bit better.

Modern Israel maybe a fairly new country, but the land was occupied by various people including a largely Jewish population thousands of years ago.

I dont really care either way but to suggest this situation is like if France invaded Britain is ridiculous


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)




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## aman_21 (Jul 29, 2013)

barsnack said:


> possibly one of the most retarded comments I have read on all my time on UKM.....and ive read some **** on here.....yeah im sure that UN School was hiding weapons of mass destruction or them kids blown up on the beach were concealing tommy guns in their shorts....****ing moron


thats probably the mots retarded reply i've read on all my time on ukm

cool story bro

let me know when you want to have a discussion and not trying to make personal attacks against me rather than my debate.

UN school? wtf is that

tommy guns? Clearly you do not know much about warfare.

please keep out if you don't have anything logical to say.

I suggest you read this http://www.djaeger.org/research/pubs/aer2008.pdf before you draw any assumptions from all this social media hype. Its a very short paper, that maybe a monkey like you could even read.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

aman_21 said:


> thats probably the mots retarded reply i've read on all my time on ukm
> 
> cool story bro
> 
> ...


yes your retarded assumption Israel target militant targets....you must be a Zionist with that thinking....**** how do you function during the day...yup by saying tommy guns, I was really hinting that's what they used you fooking **** bastard...I hope your murdered you Zionist tramp


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## aman_21 (Jul 29, 2013)

barsnack said:


> yes your retarded assumption Israel target militant targets....you must be a Zionist with that thinking....**** how do you function during the day...yup by saying tommy guns, I was really hinting that's what they used you fooking **** bastard...I hope your murdered you Zionist tramp


you must be a nazi for thinking that..........Ezzy now nazi boy, i hope you are murdered you nazi tramp, u hitler worshipper


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## fingertips (Jul 31, 2014)

God knows when the next Hitler will rise!!!

my brother just converted to Judaism as well.

although I think, Zionism is different than Judaism.


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> although I think, Zionism is different than Judaism.


very true a Jewish friend of mine hates Zionists


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## fingertips (Jul 31, 2014)

romper stomper said:


> very true a Jewish friend of mine hates Zionists


shame that not many people know that! when you say Jew or Israel to someone they think every Jew is a child killing machine when in fact Jews hate Zionists. like muslims hate hizbolah or taliban etc etc...


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## megatron (Apr 21, 2004)

what a sad thread


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

Bottom line is if Israel didn't steal the Palestinians land, then Hamas would have no need to fire rockets.

It's a simple as that!

It's only natural to defend your homeland and honour.


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## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

SSJay said:


> Unjustly? This is the same book that justifies the killing of unbelievers.. There is over 100 verses in the Quran telling muslims to kill unbelievers.


Im a believer and I havnt killed anyone and wont. Are you that thick? If that was the case every muslim in the UK and the world will be killing unbelievers. Are you one of those "sun" newspaper readers that convinces everyone all muslims are terrorists? We are taught to respect other religions, promote peace & unity. The ones who dont are not practicing properly and are not real muslims. Its like saying all Irish people are terrorists. If our country (UK) is being attacked by another and your defending your family, house, neighbourhood, other people are you a terrorist?


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

aman_21 said:


> you must be a nazi for thinking that..........Ezzy now nazi boy, i hope you are murdered you nazi tramp, u hitler worshipper


that's just so mean


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

romper stomper said:


> very true a Jewish friend of mine hates Zionists


stop ****ing lying......you have no friends


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

militant said:


> Im a believer and I havnt killed anyone and wont. Are you that thick? If that was the case every muslim in the UK and the world will be killing unbelievers. Are you one of those "sun" newspaper readers that convinces everyone all muslims are terrorists? We are taught to respect other religions, promote peace & unity. The ones who dont are not practicing properly and are not real muslims. *Its like saying all Irish people are terrorists*. If our country (UK) is being attacked by another and your defending your family, house, neighbourhood, other people are you a terrorist?


you just had to bring us into it....just when we thought the Muslims took the heat of us, especially at airports, Militant on UKM comes along, and now ill get frisked next time I board Easyjet


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## aman_21 (Jul 29, 2013)

lol wtf has Irish citizens got to do with this?


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

aman_21 said:


> lol wtf has Irish citizens got to do with this?


above post, bold line in the quote


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## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

barsnack said:


> you just had to bring us into it....just when we thought the Muslims took the heat of us, especially at airports, Militant on UKM comes along, and now ill get frisked next time I board Easyjet


Lol, Im sure ul be aright bigman, thats if easy jet turn up on time.


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## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

barsnack said:


> above post, bold line in the quote


Making a comparison to muslim citizines, or lets say ETA from spain, or even Tamil Tigers from Sri-Lanka. Point being as i mentioned earlier people are quick to generalise and believe media propaganda branding all muslims or even any brown skinned person with a beard or any women covering a hair and body a terrorist.


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## Bigh0121 (Jan 4, 2013)

romper stomper said:


> very true a Jewish friend of mine hates Zionists


**** you little dickhead


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## Gbabatunde (Jul 21, 2014)

aman_21 said:


> lol wtf has Irish citizens got to do with this?


i like the Irish people , are there many Africanos in Ireland? There accent is very cute and make me smile , but Scottish people are my favourite of the uk , Mel Gibson is very inspiring Scottish man in brave heart , his name go down in history of Scotland , very good person rip


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Bigh0121 said:


> **** you little dickhead


and the need for that was what exactly?


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## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

militant said:


> Im a believer and I havnt killed anyone and wont. Are you that thick? If that was the case every muslim in the UK and the world will be killing unbelievers. Are you one of those "sun" newspaper readers that convinces everyone all muslims are terrorists? We are taught to respect other religions, promote peace & unity. The ones who dont are not practicing properly and are not real muslims. Its like saying all Irish people are terrorists. If our country (UK) is being attacked by another and your defending your family, house, neighbourhood, other people are you a terrorist?


I was going to give you guys the benefit of doubt, not reply and hope this thread dies, but as this is a personal attack against me **** it.

I was quoting a guy who was trying to use the Quran as a method of peace saying because of the Quran they wont kill the Israelite's, so I was merely pointing out that this is the same book that tells you to go out and conquer until we (the unbelievers) submit to you and pay the jizyah.

The same guy I was quoting then went on to say he hopes Islam fights and is victorious and one day that will happen and he hopes he is alive to witness it..

The next muslim decided to quote me on the verses I showed, which by doing so all he achieved was that allah is arbitrary and try's to rule via fear "fear allah" he then goes onto saying "Islam will never be defeated" while forgetting that little Israel with 800k troops defeated 7 combined country's with 50 million Muslim troops in the 6 day war, but as this is a religion of pride, arrogance and ignorance he has probably forgotten that.

People seem to forget that before the Jews came to Israel it was a complete ****-hole like the rest of the Muslim country's surrounding it, now it is a beautiful state, so judging by how you lost even tho by outnumbering them by 60-1 and Israel is a paradise in comparison to Muslim lands even though it is in the same area, I think its fair to say that if there is a god its looking like he has already forsaken you.

By the way the reason why Muslims are not trying to conquer the UK is because they are in the minority and jihad for now forbids this, ANY other area where they are in the majority is where offensive Jihad comes into play and they try to force people to convert and either pay the Jizyah, or die, its either their way or the highway. This is what it teaches in your grossly out of date book, from god, and this is what he tells you to do, hence the Muslim nations around Israel constantly plotting their demise.

NO other religions holy book wants world domination only the Quran, hence them always fighting.. Your book even tells you if you don't fight a christian or jew and don't have the scars to prove it you may not even get into heaven.. Also if you kill a christian or Jew you are guaranteed a place in heaven, hence the suicide bombers more then willing to kill themselves as long as they kill a christain in the process, all so that they can be guaranteed to walk around with a permanent erection whilst shagging as many virgins as they want as this is what is promised to you..

And because of this this is what Muslim ruled areas will always do. The religion needs to be reformed to get with the times of a westernized world, why do you think all other religions can get on and work together in peace except for Muslims? It is because the Quran forbids you from being friends with anybody who isn't Muslim. Honestly its out of date and will constantly be the thorn in Muslims side stopping them from progressing like the rest of us.

EDIT: Btw I am Irish not that that has anything to do with anything lol


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## Gbabatunde (Jul 21, 2014)

SSJay said:


> I was going to give you guys the benefit of doubt, not reply and hope this thread dies, but as this is a personal attack against me **** it.
> 
> I was quoting a guy who was trying to use the Quran as a method of peace saying because of the Quran they wont kill the Israelite's, so I was merely pointing out that this is the same book that tells you to go out and conquer until we (the unbelievers) submit to you and pay the jizyah.
> 
> ...


My friend you mean before the Jews came to Palestine , not only are you using words out of context you are also making unfounded speculation , all Middle East was once beautiful , Saudi Arabia is Muslim country so is Egypt , Turkey , Morocco , big parts of my home land Africa , they are all more beautiful them Israel , you talk very much like a Jewish person on the attack , I coming to see a lot of anger on this board , I have studied the Quran in my home land and what you are saying is taken from context , the Jewish people love to fight whilst they have the big gun , that is all this comes to


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## Gbabatunde (Jul 21, 2014)

It is also funny making comment how Muslim need to come to advancements of future when Muslim are clever people who helped discover many things in history and have many forward people ,any Muslim teachers of university ,

Politicians , doctors and historians . I think my friend ssjay you should talk more sence instead of trying attack to be personal , sound very silly


----------



## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

Gbabatunde said:


> i like the Irish people , are there many Africanos in Ireland? There accent is very cute and make me smile ,* but Scottish people are my favourite of the uk , Mel Gibson is very inspiring Scottish man in brave heart , his name go down in history of Scotland* , very good person rip


Clearly not seeing as use a american actors name who played him lol


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## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

Gbabatunde said:


> My friend you mean before the Jews came to Palestine , not only are you using words out of context you are also making unfounded speculation , all Middle East was once beautiful , Saudi Arabia is Muslim country so is Egypt , Turkey , Morocco , big parts of my home land Africa , they are all more beautiful them Israel , you talk very much like a Jewish person on the attack , I coming to see a lot of anger on this board , I have studied the Quran in my home land and what you are saying is taken from context , the Jewish people love to fight whilst they have the big gun , that is all this comes to


I have also read the Quran. Muslims always say "its out of context" while not proving why is it out of context, it is starting to become their favorite catchphrase, so I ask you rather then saying it is out of context, prove it?

"Was once beautiful" so you are talking in past tense, why are they no longer beautiful, here and now in the present? And I am not a Jew lol


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## Gbabatunde (Jul 21, 2014)

dann19900 said:


> Clearly not seeing as use a american actors name who played him lol


I see my friend you are the man who no joke may escape


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

Gbabatunde said:


> It is also funny making comment how Muslim need to come to advancements of future when Muslim are clever people who helped discover many things in history and have many forward people ,any Muslim teachers of university ,
> 
> Politicians , doctors and historians . I think my friend ssjay you should talk more sence instead of trying attack to be personal , sound very silly


Yes because Muslims are always winning noble prizes..


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## Gbabatunde (Jul 21, 2014)

SSJay said:


> I have also read the Quran. Muslims always say "its out of context" while not proving why is it out of context, it is starting to become their favorite catchphrase, so I ask you rather then saying it is out of context, prove it.
> 
> "Was once beautiful" so you are talking in past tense, why are they no longer beautiful, here and now in the present? And I am not a Jew lol


They are beautiful , you Give me full quotes with paragraph numbers I give you full quote , Muslims are taught to be very peaceful , yet Jews in uk have there own enforcer police , private ambulance , own areas , because you said all muslim countries are **** holes so I use past tense to making you happy?

You talk a good attack for someone who makes personal comment , may i ask why you feel so negative to the Muslim? I would be more worried about Russia having problems with uk then Muslim plotting take over , how beautiful is turkey , mountains and see so clear ,Morroc and Egypt so beautiful and warm , I don't think Muslims want U.K. Where it is always rain

I have met many high Muslim scholar and then are most peaceful humble respectful people we may meet in our lives ever , you say it is a religion of pride arrogance and ignorance but I could also say then you must be Muslim because this is how you are talking

I have met very nice Christian and Jew and have met very bad , your arguments for make no case as to why you have anger


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## Gbabatunde (Jul 21, 2014)

SSJay said:


> Yes because Muslims are always winning noble prizes..


Yes my friend , 10 actually ,1 being yasser Arafat for the Nobel peace prize

how many Nobel have you won since it mean so much to you?


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## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

Gbabatunde said:


> They are beautiful , you Give me full quotes with paragraph numbers I give you full quote , Muslims are taught to be very peaceful , yet Jews in uk have there own enforcer police , private ambulance , own areas , because you said all muslim countries are **** holes so I use past tense to making you happy?
> 
> *No the burden of proof is on you.. And yes I know muslims have police and ambulances, I never said they were cave men..*
> 
> ...


*There is good and bad in everybody mate, this isn't the point I am making, I am not saying all muslims are bad, all I am saying is I think Islam needs to be reformed JIHAD needs to be taken out of the Quran*


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## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

Gbabatunde said:


> Yes my friend , 10 actually ,1 being yasser Arafat for the Nobel peace prize
> 
> how many Nobel have you won since it mean so much to you?


Yes but out of how many lol?


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

SSJay said:


> I was going to give you guys the benefit of doubt, not reply and hope this thread dies, but as this is a personal attack against me **** it.
> 
> I was quoting a guy who was trying to use the Quran as a method of peace saying because of the Quran they wont kill the Israelite's, so I was merely pointing out that this is the same book that tells you to go out and conquer until we (the unbelievers) submit to you and pay the jizyah.
> 
> ...


Out of interest do you have a reference for that?


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

Sub-Zero said:


> Out of interest do you have a reference for that?


Read the Quran


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

SSJay said:


> Read the Quran


lol...so basically you haven't got a clue where you read that.


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## Gbabatunde (Jul 21, 2014)

SSJay said:


> Yes but out of how many lol?


How many does it need to be? 1 isn't easy to obtain , you seem to be a man who is putting down the Muslim people on any way possible maybe this make you feel better , for atheist you seem very opinionated for someone who does not care for religion you express a lot of interest and hurt

by your own logic the state of Israel is killing hundreds infact thousands of Palestinians including children so there religion must be barbaric ? Do you now hate Jews for the same reason? Christians have fought in countries for hundred of years maybe you hate them to?


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> I was going to give you guys the benefit of doubt, not reply and hope this thread dies, but as this is a personal attack against me **** it.
> 
> I was quoting a guy who was trying to use the Quran as a method of peace saying because of the Quran they wont kill the Israelite's, so I was merely pointing out that this is the same book that tells you to go out and conquer until we (the unbelievers) submit to you and pay the jizyah.
> 
> ...


dont try and change my words to fit your misconceptions about islam

"The same guy I was quoting then went on to say he hopes Islam fights and is victorious and one day that will happen and he hopes he is alive to witness it.."

I said one day israel will fall and I hope I'm alive to see it, I never said I hope islam fights.

Israel is a paradise built upon murder and theft. I wouldn't term that paradise and quite frankly, If I was born a Jew I would be ashamed as many jew's are today.

Another thing you seem to forget is israel might have been a sh1thole previously, but we didn't have the technology then that we do now. That and the billions of american aid to israel has helped it. Your full of sh1te basically and not really making a decent argument stop embarrassing yourself.

Again you don't know the rulings of jihad, previously you quoted the quran and left out half of the verses, your simply trying to give Islam a bad name and are epically failing. Jihad has been done 1400 years ago when the muslim armys were a few hundred and took on thousands.

Again if you look at ISIS, I don't know how many they are but they think they are doing Jihad and are a minority in comparison to Iraqi army and Syria goverment. Again another false point.

Where does it talk about if you dont fight a christian or a jew and dont have scars to prove it you won't be admitted to heaven, based on your previous post quoting half verses of the quran and leaving other parts out which dont suit your theories nothing you say will be taken as truth and will hold no value. Suicide bombings actually go against the teachings of Islam, again this is another falsely concocted theory.

Your full of sh1te and post nothing truthful, out of curiosity where do you get your information and what religion are you?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> I have also read the Quran. Muslims always say "its out of context" while not proving why is it out of context, it is starting to become their favorite catchphrase, so I ask you rather then saying it is out of context, prove it?
> 
> "Was once beautiful" so you are talking in past tense, why are they no longer beautiful, here and now in the present? And I am not a Jew lol


you may have read the quran, but you do not understand it. This is clearly seen from your posts, your misquoting of verses, missing parts out to fit your theories and blatant false information.


----------



## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

zak007 said:


> dont try and change my words to fit your misconceptions about islam
> 
> "The same guy I was quoting then went on to say he hopes Islam fights and is victorious and one day that will happen and he hopes he is alive to witness it.."
> 
> ...


Zak don't argue with this guy bro, he's clearly an Islamic scholar, yet when asked to provide references to what he's quoted...His response was "Read the Quran" 

His probably furiously googling some anti islamic website so he can back up what he wrote.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> Yes because Muslims are always winning noble prizes..


I didn't want to clutter this thread and take it off topic, but lets continue shall we.

So, let's imagine a world WITHOUT MUSLIMS, shall we?

Without Muslims you wouldn't have:

- Coffee

- Cameras

- Experimental Physics

- Chess

- Soap

- Shampoo

- Perfume/spirits

- Irrigation

- Crank-shaft, internal combustion engine, valves, pistons

- Combination locks

- Architectural innovation (pointed arch -European Gothic cathedrals adopted this technique as it made the building much stronger, rose windows, dome buildings, round towers, etc.)

- Surgical instruments

- Anesthesia

- Windmill

- Treatment of Cowpox

- Fountain pen

- Numbering system

- Algebra/Trigonometry

- Modern Cryptology

- Crystal glasses

- Carpets

- Checks

- University

- Optics

- Toothbrush

- Hospitals

- Bathing

- Quilting

- Mariner's Compass

- Soft drinks

- Pendulum

- Braille

- Cosmetics

- Plastic surgery

- Calligraphy

- Manufacturing of paper and cloth

It was a Muslim who realized that light ENTERS our eyes, unlike the Greeks who thought we EMITTED rays, and so invented a camera from this discovery.

It was a Muslim who first tried to FLY in 852, even though it is the Wright Brothers who have taken the credit.

It was a Muslim by the name of Jabir ibn Hayyan who was known as the founder of modern Chemistry. He transformed alchemy into chemistry. He invented: distillation, purification, oxidation, evaporation, and filtration. He also discovered sulfuric and nitric acid.

It is a Muslim, by the name of Al-Jazari who is known as the father of robotics.

It was a Muslim who was the architect for Henry V's castle.

It was a Muslim who invented hollow needles to suck cataracts from eyes, a technique still used today.

It was a Muslim who actually discovered inoculation, not Jenner and Pasteur to treat cowpox. The West just brought it over from Turkey

It was Muslims who contributed much to mathematics like Algebra and Trigonometry, which was imported over to Europe 300 years later to Fibonnaci and the rest.

It was Muslims who discovered that the Earth was round 500 years before Galileo did.

The list goes on and on.. Muslims have lived peacefully for thousands of years, the spotlight is on them now as they are being persecuted worldwide, however in relation to history muslims have done nearly fcuk all compared to other religions.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

zak007 said:


> I didn't want to clutter this thread and take it off topic, but lets continue shall we.
> 
> So, let's imagine a world WITHOUT MUSLIMS, shall we?
> 
> ...


To finish this off,



I reckon thats enough to shut you up and will not respond and continue to derail this thread, if you wish to discuss it PM ME and I'll be happy to discuss FACTS.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Sub-Zero said:


> Zak don't argue with this guy bro, he's clearly an Islamic scholar, yet when asked to provide references to what he's quoted...His response was "Read the Quran"
> 
> His probably furiously googling some anti islamic website so he can back up what he wrote.


I've said everything I've needed to say and rest my case now :lol:


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> dont try and change my words to fit your misconceptions about islam
> 
> "The same guy I was quoting then went on to say he hopes Islam fights and is victorious and one day that will happen and he hopes he is alive to witness it.."
> 
> ...


Already explained this on previous posts.


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

Sub-Zero said:


> Zak don't argue with this guy bro, he's clearly an Islamic scholar, yet when asked to provide references to what he's quoted...His response was "Read the Quran"
> 
> His probably furiously googling some anti islamic website so he can back up what he wrote.


You are more then welcome to try and refute my entire post??? Go for it champ.


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> To finish this off,
> 
> View attachment 155788
> 
> ...


LOL! alot of those guys who created those things are ARABS moron not specifically muslims LOL


----------



## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

SSJay said:


> You are more then welcome to try and refute my entire post??? Go for it champ.


Ermm you're the one that made the claims...So it's your job to back it up..

So those references again? you found them??


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

zak007 said:


> To finish this off,
> 
> I reckon thats enough to shut you up and will not respond and continue to derail this thread, if you wish to discuss it PM ME and I'll be happy to discuss FACTS.





SSJay said:


> Already explained this on previous posts.


So you would be embarassed to be a Jew but not a muslim, after all the attrocites they have committed and constantly continue to do so, Oh the irony lol

*First quote with picture says it all, again bullsh1t*

"Ermm the USA also give aid to palestines and other Muslims also.. Get your facts straight.. The jews also didn't have great Technology back in the day, yet they researched and progressed."

*A mere few million compared to billions in aid to Israel, Again bullsh1t. Palestine currently dont have clean water, no electricity, hospital technology is dated, MASSIVE RESTRICTIONS ON INCOMING GOODS - AGAIN BULLSH1T*

"Prove what I say about Jihad is untrue? Please tell us your definition of Jihad and use the Quran as evidence? Like the other guy don't just call bull**** without providing evidence"

You have already been quoted and proved to be talking sh1te with false information, therefore I see no need to defend myself as your clearly not worth brining a proper arguement.

I love the way you guys leave out the part where if you fight and kill in the name of allah you will be rewarded with 72 virgins. They use suicide bombing as fighting in the name of allah, please educate about yourself about your own religion, do you think they just randomly kill themselves for no reason???

*"There will be for them therein all that they wish,- and more besides in Our Presence" (Quran 50: 35 Translated meaning )* This is taken from the quran, the 72 virgins is not mentioned in the quran.

Let me sum this up for the ignorant namely you, if one was to have everything therein (In heaven) why would they kill themselves to get 72 virgins when they will have all that they wish? Proof here, now prove me wrong.

Secondly, when someone dies they do not go straight to heaven, they will have to wait until judgement day. Another false statement

Me educate myself about my own religion? Seriously...... Says the guy who hasnt said one true statement so far backed by proof. Continue to embarrass yourself from now as I won't be baited by any more of your posts as I have proven you wrong time and time again.


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> didn't want to clutter this thread and take it off topic, but lets continue shall we.
> 
> So, let's imagine a world WITHOUT MUSLIMS, shall we?
> 
> ...


what a stupid post - you have just discredited yourself with that idiotic post - without Muslims would not have this and that - people are not necessarily anti Muslim - but anti extreme - many do have sympathies with what is happening in Gaza - but many cannot understand why Hamas keep firing useless rockets that do nothing when the return action by Israel kill hundreds

I personally find people living their lives by the rules and verses in a book and praying 5 times a day - and a book they would die for - and kill for if families are shamed by not following the good book !! to be stupid - and extreme and ill informed and ill educated - Religion was a way of populace control in many parts of the world - and as stated there was a place for religion in ages gone by - just that much of the world has become educated and realize that these verses/ books - including the bible are just stories - written in an age of many different dialects when a huge portion of the world was illiterate - stories passed on on from valley to valley translated from dialect to dialect - changing how much ?? and you live your life by this book of verses

I mean how does that sound in this day and age ?????

By the way you can add hashish to the above list :thumb:


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> So you would be embarassed to be a Jew but not a muslim, after all the attrocites they have committed and constantly continue to do so, Oh the irony lol
> 
> *First quote with picture says it all, again bullsh1t*
> 
> ...


You have proven me wrong? ****ty answers to the above, while leaving out the big question I asked.. JIHAD.. answer it and prove me wrong? What is your definition of JIHAD and what does the Quran teach you to do?






Saying you wont be baited by anymore of my post is you conceding as you know you are wrong and cant answer my posts properly, hence avoiding to answer Jihad.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

romper stomper said:


> what a stupid post - you have just discredited yourself with that idiotic post - without Muslims would not have this and that - people are not necessarily anti Muslim - but anti extreme - many do have sympathies with what is happening in Gaza - but many cannot understand why Hamas keep firing useless rockets that do nothing when the return action by Israel kill hundreds
> 
> I personally find people living their lives by the rules and verses in a book and praying 5 times a day - and a book they would die for - and kill for if families are shamed by not following the good book !! to be stupid - and extreme and ill informed and ill educated - Religion was a way of populace control in many parts of the world - and as stated there was a place for religion in ages gone by - just that much of the world has become educated and realize that these verses/ books - including the bible are just stories - written in an age of many different dialects when a huge portion of the world was illiterate - storied passion on from valley to valley translated from dialect to dialect - changing how much ?? and you live your life by this book of verses
> 
> ...


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> You have proven me wrong? ****ty answers to the above, while leaving out the big question I asked.. JIHAD.. answer it and prove me wrong? What is your definition of JIHAD and what does the Quran teach you to do?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


because by me not replying, it seems to others what you are saying is correct when it is not, quote what you said again about jihad and I will answer

I have answered everything and you have picked out one thing which I forgot, If your such a smart ass answer my responses in response to your theories proven wrong.

Out of 10-15 things youve said I've proven how its not taught in islam and how everything else you say is bullsh1t


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> because by me not replying, it seems to others what you are saying is correct when it is not, quote what you said again about jihad and I will answer
> 
> I have answered everything and you have picked out one thing which I forgot, If your such a smart ass answer my responses in response to your theories proven wrong.
> 
> Out of 10-15 things youve said I've proven how its not taught in islam and how everything else you say is bullsh1t


You haven't proven **** lol. Saying you have and doing so are two totally different things. And the question is in my previous post that you quoted you just chose to ignore it while quoting the rest with bull****


----------



## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

@SSJay

Still waiting for that reference fella..


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> You haven't proven **** lol. Saying you have and doing so are two totally different things. And it is in my previous post that you quoted you just chose to ignore it..


like a said, if I haven't then continue to reply back........

Youve made more than 10-15 points at least and I have answered them all, you haent yet counter argued to what I said back in response to the initial statement so I'm waiting.........

Today would be nice 

No i didnt ignore it, as stated in my previous post *ASK ME ABOUT IT AND I WILL ANSWER IT*


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> like a said, if I haven't then continue to reply back........
> 
> Youve made more than 10-15 points at least and I have answered them all, you haent yet counter argued to what I said back in response to the initial statement so I'm waiting.........
> 
> ...


YOU:"Again you don't know the rulings of jihad, previously you quoted the quran and left out half of the verses, your simply trying to give Islam a bad name and are epically failing. Jihad has been done 1400 years ago when the muslim armys were a few hundred and took on thousands"

MErove what I say about Jihad is untrue? Please tell us your definition of Jihad and use the Quran as evidence? Like the other guy don't just call bull**** without providing evidence.

Tell us about Jihad and what it involves? Please justify how Jihad is right and belongs in modern society??? This is your Holy book you defend it?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

@SSJay

I already answered your previous questions:

Quote Originally Posted by SSJay View Post

I was going to give you guys the benefit of doubt, not reply and hope this thread dies, but as this is a personal attack against me **** it.

I was quoting a guy who was trying to use the Quran as a method of peace saying because of the Quran they wont kill the Israelite's, so I was merely pointing out that this is the same book that tells you to go out and conquer until we (the unbelievers) submit to you and pay the jizyah.

The same guy I was quoting then went on to say he hopes Islam fights and is victorious and one day that will happen and he hopes he is alive to witness it..

The next muslim decided to quote me on the verses I showed, which by doing so all he achieved was that allah is arbitrary and try's to rule via fear "fear allah" he then goes onto saying "Islam will never be defeated" while forgetting that little Israel with 800k troops defeated 7 combined country's with 50 million Muslim troops in the 6 day war, but as this is a religion of pride, arrogance and ignorance he has probably forgotten that.

People seem to forget that before the Jews came to Israel it was a complete ****-hole like the rest of the Muslim country's surrounding it, now it is a beautiful state, so judging by how you lost even tho by outnumbering them by 60-1 and Israel is a paradise in comparison to Muslim lands even though it is in the same area, I think its fair to say that if there is a god its looking like he has already forsaken you.

By the way the reason why Muslims are not trying to conquer the UK is because they are in the minority and jihad for now forbids this, ANY other area where they are in the majority is where offensive Jihad comes into play and they try to force people to convert and either pay the Jizyah, or die, its either their way or the highway. This is what it teaches in your grossly out of date book, from god, and this is what he tells you to do, hence the Muslim nations around Israel constantly plotting their demise.

NO other religions holy book wants world domination only the Quran, hence them always fighting.. Your book even tells you if you don't fight a christian or jew and don't have the scars to prove it you may not even get into heaven.. Also if you kill a christian or Jew you are guaranteed a place in heaven, hence the suicide bombers more then willing to kill themselves as long as they kill a christain in the process, all so that they can be guaranteed to walk around with a permanent erection whilst shagging as many virgins as they want as this is what is promised to you..

And because of this this is what Muslim ruled areas will always do. The religion needs to be reformed to get with the times of a westernized world, why do you think all other religions can get on and work together in peace except for Muslims? It is because the Quran forbids you from being friends with anybody who isn't Muslim. Honestly its out of date and will constantly be the thorn in Muslims side stopping them from progressing like the rest of us.

EDIT: Btw I am Irish not that that has anything to do with anything lol

dont try and change my words to fit your misconceptions about islam

*"The same guy I was quoting then went on to say he hopes Islam fights and is victorious and one day that will happen and he hopes he is alive to witness it.."*

*
I said one day israel will fall and I hope I'm alive to see it, I never said I hope islam fights.*

*
Israel is a paradise built upon murder and theft. I wouldn't term that paradise and quite frankly, If I was born a Jew I would be ashamed as many jew's are today.*

*
*

*
Another thing you seem to forget is israel might have been a sh1thole previously, but we didn't have the technology then that we do now. That and the billions of american aid to israel has helped it. Your full of sh1te basically and not really making a decent argument stop embarrassing yourself.*

*
*

*
Again you don't know the rulings of jihad, previously you quoted the quran and left out half of the verses, your simply trying to give Islam a bad name and are epically failing. Jihad has been done 1400 years ago when the muslim armys were a few hundred and took on thousands.*

*
Again if you look at ISIS, I don't know how many they are but they think they are doing Jihad and are a minority in comparison to Iraqi army and Syria goverment. Again another false point.*

*
*

*
Where does it talk about if you dont fight a christian or a jew and dont have scars to prove it you won't be admitted to heaven, based on your previous post quoting half verses of the quran and leaving other parts out which dont suit your theories nothing you say will be taken as truth and will hold no value. Suicide bombings actually go against the teachings of Islam, again this is another falsely concocted theory.*

*
*

*
Your full of sh1te and post nothing truthful, out of curiosity where do you get your information and what religion are you?*


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> YOU:"Again you don't know the rulings of jihad, previously you quoted the quran and left out half of the verses, your simply trying to give Islam a bad name and are epically failing. Jihad has been done 1400 years ago when the muslim armys were a few hundred and took on thousands"
> 
> MErove what I say about Jihad is untrue? Please tell us your definition of Jihad and use the Quran as evidence? Like the other guy don't just call bull**** without providing evidence.
> 
> Tell us about Jihad and what it involves? Please justify how Jihad is right and belongs in modern society??? This is your Holy book you defend it?


Tell me your reference of Jihad, You are the one making statements which I said are false and not in the quran.

Now your trying to sidestep your earlier failure, by disguising this and moving onto what Jihad involves. I simply proved your previous statements wrong and proved you statements false in relation to what you said.

Talking about what jihad involves is a seperate topic altogether.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

@SSJay

Another one of which you previously said

Originally Posted by SSJay View Post

You cant use the quran saying "it teaches if they are to kill one unjustly it is if they have killed all of mankind" when MANY other verses in the Quran completely contradict that..

Qur'an 9:7-9-Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted.

Qur'an 9:12-14-Fight the disbelievers! Allah is on your side; he will give you victory.

Qur'an (5:51) Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.

Qur'an 9:5 Kill the nonbelievers wherever you find them.

Because of this and things written in the old testament, these two peoples will NEVER get on, this will always happen until one of them is completely out of the area unfortunately.

*Now lets write the quotes propperly you ****ing bitch:*

*
*

*
Qur'an 9:7-9 -How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].*

*
*

*
Qur'an 9:12-14 And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease.*

*
Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? Do you fear them? But Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are [truly] believers.*

*
Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy the breasts of a believing people*

*
*

*
Qur'an (5:51) - O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.*

*
*

*
Qur'an 9:5 and when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.*

This is another example, you talked about jihad and did not complete the verses. You simply chose to portray Islam in bad light and are continuing now to try and fight your corner by moving onto another topic where all I am doing is simply answering in relation to your statements


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> @SSJay
> 
> I already answered your previous questions:
> 
> ...


You are reposting this because?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> You are reposting this because?


reposting it because you say your answers havent been given, when they have.

You want answers, you get them. You get them and cant handle them so sidetrack the subject to have the foolish believe your views.


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> Tell me your reference of Jihad, You are the one making statements which I said are false and not in the quran.
> 
> Now your trying to sidestep your earlier failure, by disguising this and moving onto what Jihad involves. I simply proved your previous statements wrong and proved you statements false in relation to what you said.
> 
> Talking about what jihad involves is a seperate topic altogether.


Concession accepted. You can't answer how Jihad belongs in modern society.


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> @SSJay
> 
> Another one of which you previously said
> 
> ...


I don't need to portray Islam in a bad light as it is more then capable of doing that by itself, do you think by adding to those quotes it waters the hatred down in them? Because it doesnt and there are plenty more where that came from trust me.

I'm done here good night.


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> Concession accepted. You can't answer how Jihad belongs in modern society.


hahahaha :lol:

You can describe palestines doing jihad against israel, Israel will see themselves of doing the same.

We both know the true jihad is with the Palestinians against the aggressor and oppressor namely Israel

Next question :lol:

I'm quite enjoying this


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> I don't need to portray Islam in a bad light as it is more then capable of doing that by itself, do you think by adding to those quotes it waters the hatred down in them? Because it doesnt and there is plenty more where that came from trust me.
> 
> I'm done here good night.


done because you cant back up your petty arguments and dont have answers as you are wrong

Islam is only perpetrated in a bad light by the media who jump on anything and everything.


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> done because you cant back up your petty arguments and dont have answers as you are wrong


How does Jihad belongs in modern society?

How does Jihad belongs in modern society?

How does Jihad belongs in modern society?

How does Jihad belongs in modern society?

How does Jihad belongs in modern society?

How does Jihad belongs in modern society?

How does Jihad belongs in modern society?

How does Jihad belongs in modern society?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> I don't need to portray Islam in a bad light as it is more then capable of doing that by itself, do you think by adding to those quotes it waters the hatred down in them? Because it doesnt and there are plenty more where that came from trust me.
> 
> I'm done here good night.


The quran has been around for 1400 years in that time lets look at major world crimes in the grand scale of things and see who was responsible

again I will add this as you clearly didnt seem to understand it the first time

View attachment 155789


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> How does Jihad belongs in modern society?
> 
> How does Jihad belongs in modern society?
> 
> ...





zak007 said:


> hahahaha :lol:
> 
> You can describe palestines doing jihad against israel, Israel will see themselves of doing the same.
> 
> ...


Already answered it. Stop treading over all ground and reply to the answer given rather than asking the question which I previously answered.


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> Already answered it. Stop treading over all ground and reply to the answer given rather than asking the question which I previously answered.


I am not asking about the Palestinians using Jihad.. You are avoiding the question..

I am asking you, How does Jihad belongs in modern society?

This is your religion you defend how Jihad is good for us and how it belongs in modern society?


----------



## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

SSJay said:


> I don't need to portray Islam in a bad light as it is more then capable of doing that by itself, do you think by adding to those quotes it waters the hatred down in them? Because it doesnt and there are plenty more where that came from trust me.
> 
> I'm done here good night.


LOL..you really are some funny character...you posted drivel...i asked you to back up your claims by providing references more than twice, yet you keep ignoring it? why is that?

I'll ask again Mr Islamic Scholar , where is the reference??


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> I am not asking about the Palestinians using Jihad.. You are avoiding the question..
> 
> I am asking you, How does Jihad belongs in modern society?
> 
> This is your religion you defend how Jihad is good for us and how it belongs in modern society?


Are you fcuking stupid.

You asked where it belonged, and I am telling you the Palestinian people are doing a jihad against israel.

When will this sink in, I am telling you where it belongs.


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

Sub-Zero said:


> LOL..you really are some funny character...you posted drivel...i asked you to back up your claims by providing references more than twice, yet you keep ignoring it? why is that?
> 
> I'll ask again Mr Islamic Scholar , where is the reference??


The Quran is full of them you should try reading it, only takes about 35 hours.


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> Are you fcuking stupid.
> 
> You asked where it belonged, and I am telling you the Palestinian people are doing a jihad against israel.
> 
> When will this sink in, I am telling you where it belongs.


So you think the Quran is wrong (So god is wrong?) And Jihad doesn't belong in modern society yes?


----------



## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> The Quran is full of them you should try reading it, only takes about 35 hours.


you made the fcuking statement so reference it, if you cant reference something dont speak about it because you dont know it.



SSJay said:


> So you think the Quran is wrong (So god is wrong?) And Jihad doesn't belong in modern society yes?


where did I say it was wrong, I told you it is being done just now and therefore it has its place. What religion are you? Your yet to answer?

Another question what age are you? As you simply cant comprehend what I'm saying or you fail to take it in due to your incompetency


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

zak007 said:


> you made the fcuking statement so reference it, if you cant reference something dont speak about it because you dont know it.
> 
> where did I say it was wrong, I told you it is being done just now and therefore it has its place. What religion are you? Your yet to answer?
> 
> Another question what age are you? As you simply cant comprehend what I'm saying or you fail to take it in due to your incompetency


Stop attacking me and defend your book..

I haven't asked where is it being done.. wtf..

I have asked you your opinion on why you think it belongs in modern society? Which you CAN NOT ANSWER, because one if you are a Muslim you HAVE to believe it belongs in modern society as you are going against the word of allah, and two if you do admit it is right on here you make a **** of yourself as you are admitting that everybody else should subdue to you and your religion or become 2nd class citizens and pay you a toll to stay alive called the jizyah..

Anyway its late so I will be the bigger man and walk away, as you are going go around in circle all night and I have better things to do, like sleep, lol.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> Stop attacking me and defend your book..
> 
> I haven't asked where is it being done.. wtf..
> 
> ...


I have answered where it belongs, now your going onto a separate part which talks about subduing to religion and paying jizya.

Again 2 different points. Again you stray away from the first question because you cannot accept the answer given.


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

SSJay said:


> The Quran is full of them you should try reading it, only takes about 35 hours.


35 hours to read, yet you can't give me *one* reference..?

You've just proven how much of a pathetic individual you are...lol

You came into this thread writing all sorts of drivel, yet when asked about *ONE *reference mutiple times you just can't do it? WHY?? because you just made up some bullsh1t and expected that no one would call you out on it, but sorry fella you've been busted...

You can't provide a reference because it doesn't *Exist, *all you've done is use Daily Mail tactics to fool people that are uneducated on Islam..

I'd have respect for you if you came out and owned up that what you wrote was utter bullsh1t, but I doubt your ego would allow that..

You expect anyone to take what you said in other post seriously, since you've proved you're a bullsh1tter..? lol

*And this ladies and Gents, is why you should't believe everything you read, without researching for yourself, as SSjay clearly displayed.*

*
*

*
*

*
*Night "Champ".....threads been derailed enough..lol


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## Tonk007 (Jan 1, 2012)

SSJay said:


> How does Jihad belongs in modern society?
> 
> How does Jihad belongs in modern society?
> 
> ...


----------



## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

Sub-Zero said:


> 35 hours to read, yet you can't give me *one* reference..?
> 
> You've just proven how much of a pathetic individual you are...lol
> 
> ...


Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) *and receive no hurt*, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

The bolded part please. And I couldn't give a **** if you respect me, you have tried nit-picking the tiniest part of my post while completely ignoring the rest of it so i certainly don't respect you, what are you here for? What knowledge do you have about Islam? Before you start taking the p!ss about my apparently lack of knowledge.


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## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

Tonk007 said:


> I am sorry but that isn't answering how Jihad belongs in modern society, it is pointing the finger somewhere else while avoiding the question..


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## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

SSJay said:


> EDIT: BTW I don't agree with what is going on in Israel how many times do I have to say that.. I just don't agree with extremism which is fulled by a barbaric, 1400 year old, no use to society, out dated book, called the Quran.
> 
> Trust me if the shoe was on the other foot the palestines would commit genocide on the jews without question, alot of you are depending to much on the media, which will just upset you and make you even more angry.


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## SSJay (Feb 11, 2011)

SSJay said:


> Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) *and receive no hurt*, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"
> 
> The bolded part please. And I couldn't give a **** if you respect me, you have tried nit-picking the tiniest part of my post while completely ignoring the rest of it so i certainly don't respect you, what are you here for? What knowledge do you have about Islam? Before you start taking the p!ss about my apparently lack of knowledge.


The special reward for receiving hurt while fighting is in heaven. Those who receive no hurt and choose not to fight are not even guaranteed a place in heaven. And before you say well it says nothing about scars, how can you prove you have received hurt to get your reward without anything to show for it?

EDIT: Anyway I am 100% done for the night, I knew this would be a long night this is why I didn't really want to reply in the first place until I was forced, as it is now nearly 3am. I am not doing this again tomoz as I am away till Monday, so by all means you can attack me about my apparent lack of knowledge or throw the you're just racist card (even though Islam is a religion not a race) at me as you much as you want to as it is to time consuming and don't have enough time on my hands.


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## harrison180 (Aug 6, 2013)

Neither can run a country. The USA and Uk should just invade, take out as many militants as they can then the UN rule the country by western law and it will sorted but of course countries can't do that anymore cuz we are to soft.

Its a fight that's been going on for to long for anyone to win, it needs ending for them.


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## GaryMatt (Feb 28, 2014)

The loss of non-combatants is always a negative. Losing children is always bad. This conflict will never stop (6 day war).


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

Sorry lads but i can't help but laugh how mad people get over a fairytale dreamt up 1000's of years ago :lol:


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

not just how mad they get but how it rules their lives , often dictates what they eat , when they eat blah blah blah

Science has in my opinion proved many facts to discredit religion - some questions however will not be answered for time - if ever - so that leaves a gap for religion to prosper both in numbers and in profitability !!


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## Armitage Shanks (Jul 7, 2014)

I think we are witnessing it before our very eyes.

*Genocide* is the systematic destruction of all or part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group.


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

well now they have captured a soldier during the ceasefire and the leadership of Hamas has just condoned many to death - absolute stupidity - lost all sympathies for Hamas and their cause - fcuking stupid bastsards - and murderers of their own people due to their actions ! well done


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## big pete (Mar 23, 2004)

It's not really Israel vs Palestine, it's Israel vs Hamas.

Hamas are a militant group like al Qaeda, Isis etc etc who happen to rule Palestine with an iron fist. The only thing Hamas is good at is propaganda, cos let's face it they must be a crap shot to have only killed 50odd people so far


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## sgtsniff (Feb 4, 2012)

I just feel sorry for the dead / injured civilians and their families. I think it could be argues that both sides are as bad as each other.


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> it's Israel vs Hamas.


very true indeed - I now hope Isreal take out the hamas leadership - they will be saving the rest of the Innocent Palestinians from a never-ending war with masses innocent women children casualties / deaths/ maiming lives ruined over a war they can never win

They are going against one of the most fanatical anti Muslim races on the planet - zionists/Isreal and jewish sympathisers are with great riches - Isreal has - one of the if not The most advanced weapons capabilities and systems on the planet - Much they make themselves - many of the tanks and military carriers are designed to save the lives of the solders as well as being a very very effective force at taking lives - influences in worldwide major financial markets-fine art- media markets - jem markets - anything that really matter markets- the oldest and most secretive old boy networks in the world !! and unfortunately for the rest of the world generally intelligent

You really don't even need to be literate or educated to be able to work out who will win - what will the end game be ???? That's the question - how stupid can Hamas now be and how ruthless and uncaring of cilivilan casualties can the Israelis be ??


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

Tonk007 said:


> lol behave


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

SSJay said:


> funny that, jews and palestinians lived peacefully before israel was created.


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

Ok, where shall I start..lol

Below is the quote (Pg 16 of thread) where I asked you multiple times to provide a reference. After ignoring me( I wonder why  ) I then called you out on your bullsh1t.



SSJay said:


> NO other religions holy book wants world domination only the Quran, hence them always fighting.. Your book even tells you if you don't fight a christian or jew and don't have the scars to prove it you may not even get into heaven..


After being obviously butthurt and clutching at straws, you managed to quote the below Verse, in order to save face to mirror you explanation of where it says in the Quran.



SSJay said:


> Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) *and receive no hurt*, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"


Ok now either I'm blind or my understanding of the English launguage is non-existent, but where does it tell you to:

"if you don't fight a christian or jew and don't have the scars to prove it you may not even get into heaven"..??

That verse differentiates those who fight physcially against the enemy are held in a higher rank than those who do not fight "who sit (at home) *and receive no hurt"*

*
*

Thats no different then soldiers fighting in wars then those, sitting at home doing nothing..who gets recieves more respect fighting men or those too scared sat at home...who receives a medal of bravery? The soldier or joe bloggs sitting back home?



SSJay said:


> Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) *and receive no hurt*, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"
> 
> The bolded part please. And I couldn't give a **** if you respect me, you have tried nit-picking the tiniest part of my post while completely ignoring the rest of it so i certainly don't respect you, what are you here for? What knowledge do you have about Islam? Before you start taking the p!ss about my apparently lack of knowledge.


I called out your bullsh1t, but if you want to call that "nit-picking" , then clearly we both have different understanding of the term ..lol

"What am I here for" ; you ask?..well to call out people like you that write utter bollocks and misinform people.

"What knowledge do i have?"..clearly more than you, as I've just proved you can't even back up what you wrote

Finally, a few posts above you again ask " well how can you prove you recieved hurt, to get your reward for it if you don't have anything to show" well as I' ve mentioned above, the concept of God is that he is All knowing, All seeing; even a kid would understand that..lol

But you've made it out like God is a personal injury claim lawyer, that needs to see your injuries before you get your compo..lol

The irony of all this is, a terrorist makes his own interpretations to carry out violence, where you make your own interpretations to validate your posts..lol

Hope that clears things up.

Peace!


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Hamas has been in power a few years, they are labelled a "terrorist" group by terrorists such as israel and the Us, however what most forget is that Israel has been going to war with Palestine many of times before Hamas came to power.

Can anyone tell me how hamas are terrorists, all they ask for is a ceasefire based on the border openings with egypt and the restriction of humanitarian supplies lifted.

Why is there tunnels? Because without these tunnels and goods coming through them Palestine would live an even miserable life without anything.

These tunnels are not specifically used to target israel, they are used to bring in construction supplies, food, medical aid. Without these tunnels Palestine would have nothing under restrictions placed by Israel.


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> Why is there tunnels? Because without these tunnels and goods coming through them Palestine would live an even miserable life without anything.
> 
> These tunnels are not specifically used to target israel, they are used to bring in construction supplies, food, medical aid. Without these tunnels Palestine would have nothing under restrictions placed by Israel


thats understandable

BUT - What about the 1000's and 1000's of brocks fireworks you have been slinging over the border into Israel ???


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

romper stomper said:


> thats understandable
> 
> BUT - What about the 1000's and 1000's of brocks fireworks you have been slinging over the border into Israel ???


you? You mean hamas.

I take it your referring to the rockets being shot at israel?


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## cyril123 (Oct 7, 2013)

Palestine is not a country. Palestine is just a concept that failed.

How did I come to this conclusion?

I could only answer questions 9 and 10 of this questionnaire...

Yashiko Sagamori, A Japanese professor of political science at the University of Tokyo,

Passed a questionnaire to a group of Palestinian attorneys:

"Is the world just plain stupid???

If Palestine is a country, I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions on it:

1. When was it founded and by whom?

2. What were its borders?

3. What was its capital?

4. What were its major cities?

5. What was its underlying economy made of?

6. What form did its government have?

7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?

8. Was Palestine ever recognised by a country whose existence, at one time or another, leaves no room for interpretation?

9. What was the language of the State of Palestine?

10. What was the most common religion in the State of Palestine?

11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date - what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian currency against the U.S. dollar, German euro, British pound, Japanese yen or Chinese yuan?

12. Since there is no such country today, what caused its destruction and when did it happen?

You mourn the "slow decline" of the "former proud" country." When exactly was this "state" proud and what was it proud about?

13. Are the people you mistakenly call "Palestinians" something other than generic Arabs gathered from everywhere or thrown out of the Arab world?

Do they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination?

Why haven't thay ever tried to gain independence until the Arabs suffered a crushing defeat in the 'Six Day' War?

The Arab countries have never abandoned their dream to destroy Israel. To this day, they cherish this dream in their hearts. They have repeatedly failed to achieve their devious goal by military means and decided to fight Israel - by proxy.

For this purpose, they have created a terrorist organisation, cynically called it "The Palestinian people" and placed it in Gaza, Judea and Samaria.

How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to take back the "West Bank" and Gaza in a dignified manner and unconditionally?

The fact is, that the Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim for nationality than that Indian tribe which successfully appeared in Connecticut with plans to open a tax free casino; At least that tribe had a constructive goal that pushed him.

The "Palestinians" supposedly have only one motivation: to destroy Israel, and in my book, it's not enough to be treated as a "nation"or anything other than what they really are: a terrorist organisation that will one day be dismantled.


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

wow


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

crouchmagic said:


> I'd argue that they are used for both. Israel has been attacked from the inside / kidnapping due to the tunnels. The tunnels are also indeed used for supplies etc.


that's the problem right there.... hamas are using civilian buildings and structures for military operations, of course Israel are going to destroy these things.


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## big pete (Mar 23, 2004)

Dave1180 said:


> that's the problem right there.... hamas are using civilian buildings and structures for military operations, of course Israel are going to destroy these things.


Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas fired upon their own civilians, just for the outrage and propaganda value of saying Israel did it


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## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

zak007 said:


> dont try and change my words to fit your misconceptions about islam
> 
> "The same guy I was quoting then went on to say he hopes Islam fights and is victorious and one day that will happen and he hopes he is alive to witness it.."
> 
> ...


Hes probably mossad lol the cheeky cnut


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

militant said:


> *mossad *


Lovely bunch Mossad. :whistling:


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## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

Dave1180 said:


> that's the problem right there.... hamas are using civilian buildings and structures for military operations, of course Israel are going to destroy these things.


Thats because most likey they havnt got anywhere else to hide or operate from due to either Israel blowing it up or taken over it i.e palestinian land lol


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## nidhogg (Feb 18, 2011)

zak007 said:


> I didn't want to clutter this thread and take it off topic, but lets continue shall we.
> 
> So, let's imagine a world WITHOUT MUSLIMS, shall we?
> 
> ...


Sorry but what the hell does this have to do with religion? Islam did not create the things you listed above. "A world without muslims" would still have arabs in them, and all the things listed above would most likely still exist. "A muslim" would refer to a person following the islamic religion and not the person itself


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

@zak007

I really did not know that the '72 virgins' was not in the Quran. Where does this come from then?


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

latblaster said:


> @zak007
> 
> I really did not know that the '72 virgins' was not in the Quran. Where does this come from then?


your guess is as good as mine


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Dave1180 said:


> that's the problem right there.... hamas are using civilian buildings and structures for military operations, of course Israel are going to destroy these things.





big pete said:


> Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas fired upon their own civilians, just for the outrage and propaganda value of saying Israel did it


picture this, 5 million + in a city which is 25 miles long and 5 miles wide, now only 2-3 miles wide as its controlled by the israeli military at the moment.

Lets clear up the hamas part as a terrorist organisation:

Jeremy Bowen, BBC Middle East editor: "I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel's accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields." The Guardian: "In the past week, the Guardian has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods.. and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay." The Independent: "Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields." Reuters, 2013: "A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields."

Hamas would not fire at its own people and blame israel, Hamas is merely a resistance to the continued aggression of Israel. I fail how people cant understand this?


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

militant said:


> Thats because most likey they havnt got anywhere else to hide or operate from due to either Israel blowing it up or taken over it i.e palestinian land lol


Unfortunately that's how war works especially when fighting terrorists..


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

zak007 said:


> picture this, 5 million + in a city which is 25 miles long and 5 miles wide, now only 2-3 miles wide as its controlled by the israeli military at the moment.
> 
> Lets clear up the hamas part as a terrorist organisation:
> 
> ...


Not really a response to what you quoted of mine


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## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

Dave1180 said:


> Unfortunately that's how war works especially when fighting terrorists..


If anyone is defending their land and people they are called terrorists then? Especially when they are made natives in their own country that was taken away from them, thats an historical fact.

Terrorists or freedom fighters think what ever you like, I know which one I would prefer to call them. If you lived in a land like that, and had no choice and couldnt afford to escape and flee, you would do whatever it takes to defend and stand up for what belongs to you and your people.


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

militant said:


> If anyone is defending their land and people they are called terrorists then? Especially when they are made natives in their own country that was taken away from them, thats an historical fact.
> 
> Terrorists or freedom fighters think what ever you like, I know which one I would prefer to call them. If you lived in a land like that, and had no choice and couldnt afford to escape and flee, you would do whatever it takes to defend and stand up for what belongs to you and your people.


Call them freedom fighters call them whatever you like that makes you feel better about them... But... If they are using civilian buildings to fire from, or store or plan that then makes those valid military targets.. So who's to blame that a school gets bombed? Israel for hitting a valid target or hamas for turning a school in to a military target?


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## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

Dave1180 said:


> Call them freedom fighters call them whatever you like that makes you feel better about them... But... If they are using civilian buildings to fire from, or store or plan that then makes those valid military targets.. So who's to blame that a school gets bombed? Israel for hitting a valid target or hamas for turning a school in to a military target?


What exactly land have they got left? Where else could they operate from? Your comparing Israel which is a well built country also supported by USA to a land which is like a prison really. Palestinians have not exactly got a secure military base like Israel have they? If they are the people's army they are going to use whatever they can to strike from. If your in a jungle or mountains same thing. Yes of course Israel are going to get the better of them, you cant compare the two one is heavily funded better equipment, fighter jets. Other's use stones, RPGs missiles, and bullets.


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

militant said:


> What exactly land have they got left? Where else could they operate from? Your comparing Israel which is a well built country also supported by USA to a land which is like a prison really. Palestinians have not exactly got a secure military base like Israel have they? If they are the people's army they are going to use whatever they can to strike from. If your in a jungle or mountains same thing. Yes of course Israel are going to get the better of them, you cant compare the two one is heavily funded better equipment, fighter jets. Other's use stones, RPGs missiles, and bullets.


Missing the point, they are making civilian buildings valid military targets... Its their own fault these places are being targeted


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

crouchmagic said:


> I can't helps but always get drawn back to this point. If there were no rocket attacks, and no tunnell attacks, the deaths would stop.
> 
> However, that is not going to happen. Hamas have said they will only stop when the blockade is lifted. There's no chance that will happen because Israel see the blockade as the only way to stop Hamas getting an easy rearmament, and I do somewhat believe that even if the blockade was lifted, Hamas would still continue. Couple this with Hamas' poor relations with Egypt, Israel and many other of the middle east countries... It is so complicated. Hamas major ally recently is Qatar.
> 
> With Hamas wanting the blockade lifted, and Israel refusing to lift blockade because of safety fears, there really is no immediate end to this violence. It's a he'll of a long way away. The conflict has been raging for years now, and it will continue to do so.


Reps for a good, non biased post mate. Too many people on this thread see this issue as black and white and are unwilling to accept the blame lies with both parties.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Dave1180 said:


> Call them freedom fighters call them whatever you like that makes you feel better about them... But... If they are using civilian buildings to fire from, or store or plan that then makes those valid military targets.. So who's to blame that a school gets bombed? Israel for hitting a valid target or hamas for turning a school in to a military target?


Israel are to blame for nuking schools etc ....there response when asked was that they were 'investigating'...you trying to say all the thousands of areas they have bombed have been scenes of hamas activity...your very misguided or plain stupid....weres your proof hamas turned anything into a place for military operation....don't you think the silence and lack of evidence from Israel is astounding....even more astounding, is the number of Jews who have forced their discontent and angry at the Zionist government for their actions....the media is incredibly pr Israel, so where is the proof hamas are using all these places for launching operations....their main way of attack is through the tunnels.....unless Hamas are directly firing and being an incredible risk to Israel security, then they have no right or justification for launching the bombs on the places they have been hiting


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

crouchmagic said:


> I can't helps but always get drawn back to this point. If there were no rocket attacks, and no tunnell attacks, the deaths would stop.
> 
> However, that is not going to happen. Hamas have said they will only stop when the blockade is lifted. There's no chance that will happen because Israel see the blockade as the only way to stop Hamas getting an easy rearmament, and I do somewhat believe that even if the blockade was lifted, Hamas would still continue. Couple this with Hamas' poor relations with Egypt, Israel and many other of the middle east countries... It is so complicated. Hamas major ally recently is Qatar.
> 
> With Hamas wanting the blockade lifted, and Israel refusing to lift blockade because of safety fears, there really is no immediate end to this violence. It's a he'll of a long way away. The conflict has been raging for years now, and it will continue to do so.


cant argue with your post....Israel is trying to wipe out the palestians from their lands completely, so of course hamas have a right to fight back, they have no choice...should they wait until they have been completely banished...unless you've lived in a country were this or something similar is happening, you wont understand the mindset (and that isn't a dig)...personally, its unfortunate given the battlefield is so densely populated, but that never stopped Britain from bombing Germany, American Japan etc....no country ever involved in War, wasn't guilty of actions which deliberately targeted innocent civilians


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

barsnack said:


> Israel are to blame for nuking schools etc ....there response when asked was that they were 'investigating'...you trying to say all the thousands of areas they have bombed have been scenes of hamas activity...your very misguided or plain stupid....weres your proof hamas turned anything into a place for military operation....don't you think the silence and lack of evidence from Israel is astounding....even more astounding, is the number of Jews who have forced their discontent and angry at the Zionist government for their actions....the media is incredibly pr Israel, so where is the proof hamas are using all these places for launching operations....their main way of attack is through the tunnels.....unless Hamas are directly firing and being an incredible risk to Israel security, then they have no right or justification for launching the bombs on the places they have been hiting


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=8qHcU4rXAueg7Abk7YCYDg&url=http://www.vox.com/2014/7/30/5937119/palestinian-civilian-casualties-gaza-israel&cd=1&ved=0CB4QqQIwAA&usg=AFQjCNEoHrb0FOssqaTaVNXFsl8rhJVgIA&sig2=8497TYaM4EMuCfdZTKqLyQ

Have a quick read of that, a quick Google search threw this up...


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Dave1180 said:


> https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=8qHcU4rXAueg7Abk7YCYDg&url=http://www.vox.com/2014/7/30/5937119/palestinian-civilian-casualties-gaza-israel&cd=1&ved=0CB4QqQIwAA&usg=AFQjCNEoHrb0FOssqaTaVNXFsl8rhJVgIA&sig2=8497TYaM4EMuCfdZTKqLyQ
> 
> Have a quick read of that, a quick Google search threw this up...


hhaha you actually quoting a ****ing paper by Max FISHER from Vox....theu guy is one of the biggest embrassments to Journalism

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/06/21/voxs-max-fisher-doesnt-know-what-hes-talking-about/

theres even more articles on his made up facts......ci have no respect for any argument with you now


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

I have no respect for someone who says I'm stupid for stating that a terrorist organisation has stores of weapons.. I'd say it's a bit stupid to think they dint store them... What do you think they do, just stumble across a rocket in the street and fire it because it's there??

Also, you say they only attack through the tunnels.. Probably not the best way of firing rockets over a wall really is it?

How about you show me proof of them not storing weapons or using civilian buildings for military tasks?


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

The common misconception that Israel is fighting Hamas, is a load of bollocks!

The Zionist aim is to exterminate the Palestinians from the Holy land, this is eveident by Israel's ever expanding map.

They want to make the Palestinians lives hell and unbearable so they just give up and get up and leave!..but this isn't going to happen!

In order for the return of the Golden age, where the Jews are waiting for their Messiah to rule from Jerusalem, from the throne of King David.

Are the Israeli's that reside in israel today even Israelite?? or European Jews, non-semitic people, who came from an area known as Khazar.

These are the people that coined the Zionist movement.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

Dave1180 said:


> Call them freedom fighters call them whatever you like that makes you feel better about them... But... If they are using civilian buildings to fire from, or store or plan that then makes those valid military targets.. So who's to blame that a school gets bombed? Israel for hitting a valid target or hamas for turning a school in to a military target?


Just recently, Israel were told 17 times, yes 17 fcuking times that a UN shelter had no weapons or the like in it, and yet it was still targeted. A fcuking shelter for refugees which contained scared families. Thats only opne example.



crouchmagic said:


> Let's get things a little straighter
> 
> Hamas are recognised as a terrorist organisation by quite a few Western states. The US, the EU etc. Russia, China, and others do not recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation.
> 
> ...


see my earlier post about the bullsh1t of hamas using people as human sheilds. This was found to be untrue by a non bias BBC reporter.

When have hamas killed innocent civilians through car bombings, bus bombings and the like?


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

crouchmagic said:


> Here's quite an interesting list over on Wikipedia: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks
> 
> It's a list of suicide attacks from Palestine against Israel. Most notable ones are the bus bombings and the cafe bombing in the early 2000s. Such activities are what has helped Hamas attain their terrorist status
> 
> Edit: Further reading will show that Hamas / other groups have used children to carry out some of these attacks...


I dont think hamas have been around that long, wikipedia is always a poor source for information


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

crouchmagic said:


> I can't helps but always get drawn back to this point. If there were no rocket attacks, and no tunnell attacks, the deaths would stop.
> 
> However, that is not going to happen. Hamas have said they will only stop when the blockade is lifted. There's no chance that will happen because Israel see the blockade as the only way to stop Hamas getting an easy rearmament, and I do somewhat believe that even if the blockade was lifted, Hamas would still continue. Couple this with Hamas' poor relations with Egypt, Israel and many other of the middle east countries... It is so complicated. Hamas major ally recently is Qatar.
> 
> With Hamas wanting the blockade lifted, and Israel refusing to lift blockade because of safety fears, there really is no immediate end to this violence. It's a he'll of a long way away. The conflict has been raging for years now, and it will continue to do so.


and i can't help but think, if israel was to stop stealing palestine land, stop the random air strikes, stop arresting people a lot of them children in palestine and lift restrictions there would be peace.

And that isn't going to happen because israel wants the palestine people to perish and wont stop until their exterminated.

Egypt had good relations with palestine, until the latest goverment was ousted in a coup where an american backed president took over. Countries are scared to back Palestine due to the sanctions they could face from the west


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## Armitage Shanks (Jul 7, 2014)

The old regime in Egypt would have a good relationship with Hamas as they are all part of the Muslim Brotherhood...


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## MR RIGSBY (Jun 12, 2007)

zak007 said:


> I dont think hamas have been around that long, wikipedia is always a poor source for information


Mate you are obviously passionate about this subject and I agree with some if what you write, but you need to open your mind a little and realise Hamas aren't the righteous freedom fighting good guys you think they are.

Hamas have claimed responsibility for many suicide attacks on Israel, where civilians were killed. Just accept that.

Now as I have said I certainly don't agree with what Israel are doing, but you need to realise there are 2 sides to this conflict and to simply say one side is right and the other wrong is just naive.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

crouchmagic said:


> The proof is in the pudding in that list mate. There's no denying that Hamas have carried out suicide attacks on civilians, and that;s why they are a recognised terrorist organisation by certain states. The list also shows who claimed responsibility, and Hamas have claimed responsibility for a fair few.
> 
> Nowadays Wikipedia is decent because of the references used and a lot of areas get checked over. I'm sure other sources out there would verify the information in that list.
> 
> ...


I'm 90% sure Hamas hasnt been around that long to have carried out said attacks.

IMO it is as simple as that, the PM netanyahu has said it many of times and they will never relinquish control of palestine nor stop until they've taken them all out.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

MR RIGSBY said:


> Mate you are obviously passionate about this subject and I agree with some if what you write, but you need to open your mind a little and realise Hamas aren't the righteous freedom fighting good guys you think they are.
> 
> Hamas have claimed responsibility for many suicide attacks on Israel, where civilians were killed. Just accept that.
> 
> Now as I have said I certainly don't agree with what Israel are doing, but you need to realise there are 2 sides to this conflict and to simply say one side is right and the other wrong is just naive.


I agree that Hamas may have done some things, I am yet to see evidence however its probably true but what I try to convey is they would never exist if Israel hadn't stolen Palestinian land and Israel's continued aggression.

I agree it will take both sides to put down their weapons for there to be a ceasefire, however a permanent I believe will never happen.


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## T100 (Oct 8, 2011)




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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

zak007 said:


> I'm 90% sure Hamas hasnt been around that long to have carried out said attacks.
> 
> IMO it is as simple as that, the PM netanyahu has said it many of times and they will never relinquish control of palestine nor stop until they've taken them all out.


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=dxbdU5X5ONPG7Ab50YGQBg&url=http://m.gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/israel-and-hamas-timeline-of-conflict-1.1357261&cd=7&ved=0CDIQFjAG&usg=AFQjCNGNKbfHHEiWllSnFPp8z0KhQMkmvw&sig2=95-8O-5g8NOQmx6pDxHg2A


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## StillTraining (May 7, 2012)

T100 said:


>


This picture depicts what is really going on, like a real life version of what you posted


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/495572438827409408


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## Sigma (Apr 13, 2014)

StillTraining said:


> This picture depicts what is really going on, like a real life version of what you posted
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/495572438827409408


It must take some damn fine military psyoping to get someone to do that to another human being.


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Sigma said:


> It must take some damn fine military psyoping to get someone to do that to another human being.


They're 'only following orders'....so they don't accept any personal responsibilty. :sad:


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## husky (Jan 31, 2010)

latblaster said:


> They're 'only following orders'....so they don't accept any personal responsibilty. :sad:


That one doesnt hold any water after the Nuremberg trials that allowed so many German soldiers to be put to death for their actions following orders against the jews


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

husky said:


> That one doesnt hold any water after the Nuremberg trials that allowed so many German soldiers to be put to death for their actions following orders against the jews


Yes, I 100% agree. My post was meant to be ironic.


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## husky (Jan 31, 2010)

latblaster said:


> Yes, I 100% agree. My post was meant to be ironic.


Lol I know mate was agreeing with you


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

zak007 said:


> I agree that Hamas may have done some things, I am yet to see evidence however its probably true but what I try to convey is they would never exist if Israel hadn't stolen Palestinian land and Israel's continued aggression.
> 
> I agree it will take both sides to put down their weapons for there to be a ceasefire, however a permanent I believe will never happen.


Hamas has been around since the late 80s


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## StillTraining (May 7, 2012)

Sigma said:


> It must take some damn fine military psyoping to get someone to do that to another human being.


There's some seriously nasty stuff coming out, some are going to mountain tops with chairs and beers and watching the fireworks. Clapping when they see the explosions. Others are singing in large groups 'schools out in gaza... There's no children left'. The newspapers are publishing 'when genocide is right' justifying what they are knowingly doing to women/children in gaza. But the worse stuff is what is being said in their parliament and what they are trying to achieve.

That said, there's some good people there than know this attack is wrong and 50,000 marching against it.

I didn't care much for twitter before, but you can see the truth of what's really happening there. You won't see the truth on BBC.


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## StillTraining (May 7, 2012)

This YouTube video explains the media games, very interesting how it's done.


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## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

Wiki is not an reliable source from an academic point of view, I am sure other academics can vouch for this. Most Universities I know will not class wiki for citation when doing academic writing / papers. I know I was not allowed to cite wiki in my academic essays.


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## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

You are better off getting evidence from

"Joey Essex" lol


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## Sigma (Apr 13, 2014)

StillTraining said:


> There's some seriously nasty stuff coming out, some are going to mountain tops with chairs and beers and watching the fireworks. Clapping when they see the explosions. Others are singing in large groups 'schools out in gaza... There's no children left'. The newspapers are publishing 'when genocide is right' justifying what they are knowingly doing to women/children in gaza. But the worse stuff is what is being said in their parliament and what they are trying to achieve.
> 
> That said, there's some good people there than know this attack is wrong and 50,000 marching against it.
> 
> I didn't care much for twitter before, but you can see the truth of what's really happening there. You won't see the truth on BBC.


They are indoctrinating young kids to hate palestine with a passion:


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## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

@Sigma, others might say the above pictures are from an open day in an Israeli Army base for military families lol


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

TOMORROWLAND


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## Simspin (Sep 5, 2011)

Non! they both want to pack it in, its just stupid pointless killing!


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## HCF (Dec 19, 2012)

StillTraining said:


> This picture depicts what is really going on, like a real life version of what you posted
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/495572438827409408


That's actually a picture of an American troop with an Afghan civilian, however there are far worse pictures coming out of Gaza at the moment. Terrible stuff.


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## zak007 (Nov 12, 2011)

This is a good video of how the media twist things

Its clear the reporter on Fox news has a clear Bias towards Israel

Its a shame theres no face to face debate


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## militant (Jul 12, 2014)

HCF said:


> That's actually a picture of an American troop with an Afghan civilian, however there are far worse pictures coming out of Gaza at the moment. Terrible stuff.


Its very common for Israeli soldiers to behave in that manner, fcking hate them.


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## Venom (Feb 17, 2014)

Palestine doesn't even have an army. Its basically cavemen vs an advanced civilisation.

I can't believe this is even up for debate.


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

I was originally pro Palestinian - and after watching the documentary film 5 broken cameras - i was appalled by the Israeli actions - absolute ba*stards - just shot a guy in the leg for no reason at all !! it was a disgrace

fast forward to now - Israel uses a overwhelming force to crush its opposition in the west bank - Militarily an overwhelming force scenario causes lots of civilian casualties- but that is how Israel wages its wars against Hamas

Now hamas know this and you have hamas firing 100's and 1000's of its useless rockets that cause few deaths - Hamas and the world knows the west bank will get pounded by and overwhelming force and will take civilian casualties !!

but they still keep doing it and still keep getting pounded and killed

Must be like negotiating with total morons


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)




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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

I made a comment once to a client the day after watching Schindler's list and then watching the news reports of Israel attacks on Palestine - i commented " i think the jews given the change will do to the Palestinians what Adolf did to them " he half agreed " i think your half right there Romper"

Later in the day read the Hong Kong Tattler - and had an artical about the client i commented to - The head of the Jewish businessman association !! ooops

The thing about the Israelis and Zionists is there not stupid !! and learn well


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

romper stomper said:


> I was originally pro Palestinian - and after watching the documentary film 5 broken cameras - i was appalled by the Israeli actions - absolute ba*stards - just shot a guy in the leg for no reason at all !! it was a disgrace
> 
> fast forward to now - Israel uses a overwhelming force to crush its opposition in the west bank - Militarily an overwhelming force scenario causes lots of civilian casualties- but that is how Israel wages its wars against Hamas
> 
> ...


Oh....so that's alright then.


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

romper stomper said:


> I was originally pro Palestinian - and after watching the documentary film 5 broken cameras - i was appalled by the Israeli actions - absolute ba*stards - just shot a guy in the leg for no reason at all !! it was a disgrace
> 
> fast forward to now - Israel uses a overwhelming force to crush its opposition in the west bank - Militarily an overwhelming force scenario causes lots of civilian casualties- but that is how Israel wages its wars against Hamas
> 
> ...


That's their plan though don't you think? Knowing that they'll get that reaction from Israel, knowing it'll cause civilian casualties, they keep doing it so as even Israeli allies feel the need to condemn their actions.


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## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

romper stomper said:


> I was originally pro Palestinian - and after watching the documentary film 5 broken cameras - i was appalled by the Israeli actions - absolute ba*stards - just shot a guy in the leg for no reason at all !! it was a disgrace
> 
> fast forward to now - Israel uses a overwhelming force to crush its opposition in the west bank - Militarily an overwhelming force scenario causes lots of civilian casualties- but that is how Israel wages its wars against Hamas
> 
> ...


Yer they should just give up and let Israel take all the land off them....


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Dave1180 said:


> That's their plan though don't you think? Knowing that they'll get that reaction from Israel, knowing it'll cause civilian casualties, they keep doing it so as even Israeli allies feel the need to condemn their actions.


erm no...their land is being taken from them at an alarming rate...any country that would have their land at stake, would fight...just imagine if Israel or anyone else, came into England and started to bulldoze English homes, and banish English people from mass areas...you not think England would fight back


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

barsnack said:


> erm no...their land is being taken from them at an alarming rate...any country that would have their land at stake, would fight...just imagine if Israel or anyone else, came into England and started to bulldoze English homes, and banish English people from mass areas...you not think England would fight back


That's not what I'm saying... Im saying in my opinion they've figured out that they can't win through fighting so they're trying to get the world to condemn Israel for its actions and force Israel to back out through pressure from the rest of the world.


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Dave1180 said:


> That's not what I'm saying... Im saying in my opinion they've figured out that they can't win through fighting so they're trying to get the world to condemn Israel for its actions and force Israel to back out through pressure from the rest of the world.


okay, get you know....once again, if you look a the Maps which show how much land Israel have stole, and its astonishing...the Palestinians rightly so, believe they are being 'removed' from their lands, so have every right to fight back....no doubt they know they will suffer a lot of casualities, but the Zionist Government of Israel, don't want peace, which is the main issue...so do you sit back, watch your peoples suffering, and accept your land being taken off you...or do you fight./....you fight...simple


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> Oh....so that's alright then.


not really - but we all know what will happen



> That's their plan though don't you think? Knowing that they'll get that reaction from Israel, knowing it'll cause civilian casualties, they keep doing it so as even Israeli allies feel the need to condemn their actions.


just what my thoughts are - Hamas are killing their own by their actions - and everyone thinks Israel are the bad guys - we all know what they do when rockets are fired , that had been a constant , and that constant of overwhelming force is getting sympathies for the Palestinians.


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

This thread just keeps going in circles.

Bottom line is : No Israel = No Hamas

The resistance will never die and Israel will never stop with their war crimes until they've wiped out all the Palestians and secured their land.

There will never be peace in the region, it's basically all or nothing for both sides.


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## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

Sub-Zero said:


> This thread just keeps going in circles.
> 
> Bottom line is : No Israel = No Hamas
> 
> ...


Only a matter of time till a REAL terrorist group decided it's time to start attacking Israel. Thanks to the us they are getting some real fire power


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## Sub-Zero (May 2, 2011)

gycraig said:


> Only a matter of time till a REAL terrorist group decided it's time to start attacking Israel. Thanks to the us they are getting some real fire power


Exactly; without the US Israel wouldn't exist!


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## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

Sub-Zero said:


> Exactly; without the US Israel wouldn't exist!


Isis are stealing military weapons from Iran / Iraq army whatever it is and now America pledging more equipment to the same army :S bonkers


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## kuju (Sep 15, 2010)

I have swung back and forth on this.....ultimately my position is the same as it was to start with; i'm with the people in the middle - be they Israeli or Palestinian...the ones who are suffering the effects of a war raged by religious nutjobs in power (on both sides).

However - whilst I agree that Hamas continually hammering Israel with largely useless rocket will exacerbate the situation and give Isarael teh excuse it needs - the fact is....when Israel bulldozes homes, evicts people by force, steals land - nto one superpower that supports them does anything to step in. They are not held accountable for their actions by the rest of teh world in any capacity that makes sense. So i'm leaning toweards the palestinians...because Israel needs to be dragged up by it's bootstraps by the UK and US. Sure defend yourselves against rocket attacks.......but as someone else pointed out - when the IRA chucked bombs at us - we didn't carpet bomb Northern Ireland in retaliation...which is pretty close to what's happening there. Hamas have no reason to stop if Israel are allowed free rein when any ceasefire is called. Israel MUST be made accountable and made to withdraw from Palestinian land when a truce is called.......that may lead Hamas to stop.

However the bottom line is still that a few religious nutjobs are once again making a war for other peope to fight and for non-combatants to die in.

Fvck religion.


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## robbo9 (Mar 24, 2012)

Civilian casualties reported on the news are not all civilians. Hamas make out they are but they are not. The majority of killinga in gaza are in fact militants but hamas want pity so theu record them as civilians.


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## spod (Mar 25, 2010)

robbo9 said:


> Civilian casualties reported on the news are not all civilians. Hamas make out they are but they are not. *The majority of killinga in gaza are in fact militants* but hamas want pity so theu record them as civilians.


.....so the body of that 5 year old girl i saw on the news the other day was actually that of a Hamas militant???

You cannot possibly know that your statement is in any way correct.

I'm sure there are instances where militants have been recorded as civilians but it is also clear that large numbers of innocent civilians have been killed by the Israeli army.

I think as far as fudging the figures and presenting a distorted, propagandist view of the conflict to the rest of the world goes, Israel are better than just about everyone else.


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## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

kuju said:


> I have swung back and forth on this.....ultimately my position is the same as it was to start with; i'm with the people in the middle - be they Israeli or Palestinian...the ones who are suffering the effects of a war raged by religious nutjobs in power (on both sides).
> 
> However - whilst I agree that Hamas continually hammering Israel with largely useless rocket will exacerbate the situation and give Isarael teh excuse it needs - the fact is....when Israel bulldozes homes, evicts people by force, steals land - nto one superpower that supports them does anything to step in. They are not held accountable for their actions by the rest of teh world in any capacity that makes sense. So i'm leaning toweards the palestinians...because Israel needs to be dragged up by it's bootstraps by the UK and US. Sure defend yourselves against rocket attacks.......but as someone else pointed out - when the IRA chucked bombs at us - we didn't carpet bomb Northern Ireland in retaliation...which is pretty close to what's happening there. Hamas have no reason to stop if Israel are allowed free rein when any ceasefire is called. Israel MUST be made accountable and made to withdraw from Palestinian land when a truce is called.......that may lead Hamas to stop.
> 
> ...


Never have I agreed so much with a statement in my life. you read my mind.


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## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> However the bottom line is still that a few religious nutjobs are once again making a war for other peope to fight and for non-combatants to die in.


one of the major reasons

i personally class both religions as crazy - too extreme for this modern day and age - Diet restricted by region - how you dress , who you associate with, when to eat blah blah blah, blah blah blah

personally i class any person that prays 5 times per day to be ????? normal ???


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## robbo9 (Mar 24, 2012)

spod said:


> .....so the body of that 5 year old girl i saw on the news the other day was actually that of a Hamas militant???
> 
> You cannot possibly know that your statement is in any way correct.
> 
> ...


Did i ever say all??? I like it how people dont see the full picture. I dont agree with killing civilians. Unfortunatly the terrorist group hamas has ruined gaza. And domt forget civilians in gaza are against hamas but if they speak out they are killed. They use them as human shields. If your family home was attacked evwry day what would you do? Israel sends flyers warnings etc to get those civilians out of the way but hamas makes them stay and many missions have been aborted to try keep the population down.


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## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

robbo9 said:


> Did i ever say all??? I like it how people dont see the full picture. I dont agree with killing civilians. Unfortunatly the terrorist group hamas has ruined gaza. And domt forget civilians in gaza are against hamas but if they speak out they are killed. They use them as human shields. If your family home was attacked evwry day what would you do? Israel sends flyers warnings etc to get those civilians out of the way but hamas makes them stay and many missions have been aborted to try keep the population down.


It's a war neither side will stop till the other is gone, it just so happens Israel is winning so is seen as the bad guys.

There will never be peace till 1 side Is wiped out.

If Israel gave all there land back Hamas would still attack them.

If Hamas stopped attacking Israel would still bulldoze houses and expand.

Your blaming Hamas for fighting back against Israel which basically has them surrounded after taking all there land ?z


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## aman_21 (Jul 29, 2013)

Are you "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine"? It isn't even noon yet as I write this, and I've already been accused of being both.

These terms intrigue me because they directly speak to the doggedly tribal nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. You don't hear of too many other countries being universally spoken of this way. Why these two? Both Israelis and Palestinians are complex, with diverse histories and cultures, and two incredibly similar (if divisive) religions. To come down completely on the side of one or the other doesn't seem rational to me.

It is telling that most Muslims around the world support Palestinians, and most Jews support Israel. This, of course, is natural -- but it's also problematic. It means that this is not about who's right or wrong as much as which tribe or nation you are loyal to. It means that Palestinian supporters would be just as ardently pro-Israel if they were born in Israeli or Jewish families, and vice versa. It means that the principles that guide most people's view of this conflict are largely accidents of birth -- that however we intellectualize and analyze the components of the Middle East mess, it remains, at its core, a tribal conflict.

By definition, tribal conflicts thrive and survive when people take sides. Choosing sides in these kinds of conflicts fuels them further and deepens the polarization. And worst of all, you get blood on your hands.

So before picking a side in this latest Israeli-Palestine conflict, consider these 7 questions:

***

1. Why is everything so much worse when there are Jews involved?

Over 700 people have died in Gaza as of this writing. Muslims have woken up around the world. But is it really because of the numbers?

Bashar al-Assad has killed over 180,000 Syrians, mostly Muslim, in two years -- more than the number killed in Palestine in two decades. Thousands of Muslims in Iraq and Syria have been killed by ISIS in the last two months. Tens of thousands have been killed by the Taliban. Half a million black Muslims were killed by Arab Muslims in Sudan. The list goes on.

But Gaza makes Muslims around the world, both Sunni and Shia, speak up in a way they never do otherwise. Up-to-date death counts and horrific pictures of the mangled corpses of Gazan children flood their social media timelines every day. If it was just about the numbers, wouldn't the other conflicts take precedence? What is it about then?

If I were Assad or ISIS right now, I'd be thanking God I'm not Jewish.

Amazingly, many of the graphic images of dead children attributed to Israeli bombardment that are circulating online are from Syria, based on a BBC report. Many of the pictures you're seeing are of children killed by Assad, who is supported by Iran, which also funds Hezbollah and Hamas. What could be more exploitative of dead children than attributing the pictures of innocents killed by your own supporters to your enemy simply because you weren't paying enough attention when your own were killing your own?

This doesn't, by any means, excuse the recklessness, negligence, and sometimesoutright cruelty of Israeli forces. But it clearly points to the likelihood that the Muslim world's opposition to Israel isn't just about the number of dead.

Here is a question for those who grew up in the Middle East and other Muslim-majority countries like I did: if Israel withdrew from the occupied territories tomorrow, all in one go -- and went back to the 1967 borders -- and gave the Palestinians East Jerusalem -- do you honestly think Hamas wouldn't find something else to pick a fight about? Do you honestly think that this has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they are Jews? Do you recall what you watched and heard on public TV growing up in Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Egypt?

Yes, there's an unfair and illegal occupation there, and yes, it's a human rights disaster. But it is also true that much of the other side is deeply driven by anti-Semitism. Anyone who has lived in the Arab/Muslim world for more than a few years knows that. It isn't always a clean, one-or-the-other blame split in these situations like your Chomskys and Greenwalds would have you believe. It's both.

***

2. Why does everyone keep saying this is not a religious conflict?

There are three pervasive myths that are widely circulated about the "roots" of the Middle East conflict:

Myth 1: Judaism has nothing to do with Zionism.

Myth 2: Islam has nothing to do with Jihadism or anti-Semitism.

Myth 3: This conflict has nothing to do with religion.

To the "I oppose Zionism, not Judaism!" crowd, is it mere coincidence that this passage from the Old Testament (emphasis added) describes so accurately what's happening today?

"I will establish your borders from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea, and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you. Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods." - Exodus 23:31-32

Or this one?

"See, I have given you this land. Go in and take possession of the land the Lord swore he would give to your fathers -- to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- and to their descendants after them." - Deuteronomy 1:8

There's more: Genesis 15:18-21, and Numbers 34 for more detail on the borders. Zionism is not the "politicization" or "distortion" of Judaism. It is the revival of it.

And to the "This is not about Islam, it's about politics!" crowd, is this verse from the Quran (emphasis added) meaningless?

"O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you--then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people." - Quran, 5:51

What about the numerous verses and hadith quoted in Hamas' charter? And the famous hadith of the Gharqad tree explicitly commanding Muslims to kill Jews?

Please tell me -- in light of these passages written centuries and millennia before the creation of Israel or the occupation -- how can anyone conclude that religion isn't at the root of this, or at least a key driving factor? You may roll your eyes at these verses, but they are taken very seriously by many of the players in this conflict, on both sides. Shouldn't they be acknowledged and addressed? When is the last time you heard a good rational, secular argument supporting settlement expansion in the West Bank?

Denying religion's role seems to be a way to be able to criticize the politics while remaining apologetically "respectful" of people's beliefs for fear of "offending" them. But is this apologism and "respect" for inhuman ideas worth the deaths of human beings?

People have all kinds of beliefs -- from insisting the Earth is flat to denying the Holocaust. You may respect their right to hold these beliefs, but you're not obligated to respect the beliefs themselves. It's 2014, and religions don't need to be "respected" any more than any other political ideology or philosophical thought system. Human beings have rights. Ideas don't. The oft-cited politics/religion dichotomy in Abrahamic religions is false and misleading. All of the Abrahamic religions are inherently political.

***

3. Why would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

This is the single most important issue that gets everyone riled up, and rightfully so.

Again, there is no justification for innocent Gazans dying. And there's no excuse for Israel's negligence in incidents like the killing of four children on a Gazan beach. But let's back up and think about this for a minute.

Why on Earth would Israel deliberately want to kill civilians?

When civilians die, Israel looks like a monster. It draws the ire of even its closest allies. Horrific images of injured and dead innocents flood the media. Ever-growing anti-Israel protests are held everywhere from Norway to New York. And the relatively low number of Israeli casualties (we'll get to that in a bit) repeatedly draws allegations of a "disproportionate" response. Most importantly, civilian deaths help Hamas immensely.

How can any of this possibly ever be in Israel's interest?

If Israel wanted to kill civilians, it is terrible at it. ISIS killed more civilians in two days (700 plus) than Israel has in two weeks. Imagine if ISIS or Hamas had Israel's weapons, army, air force, US support, and nuclear ****nal. Their enemies would've been annihilated long ago. If Israel truly wanted to destroy Gaza, it could do so within a day, right from the air. Why carry out a more painful, expensive ground incursion that risks the lives of its soldiers?

***

4. Does Hamas really use its own civilians as human shields?

Ask Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas how he feels about Hamas' tactics.

"What are you trying to achieve by sending rockets?" he asks. "I don't like trading in Palestinian blood."

It isn't just speculation anymore that Hamas puts its civilians in the line of fire.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri plainly admitted on Gazan national TV that thehuman shield strategy has proven "very effective."

The UN relief organization UNRWA issued a furious condemnation of Hamas after discovering hidden rockets in not one, but two children's schools in Gaza last week.

Hamas fires thousands of rockets into Israel, rarely killing any civilians or causing any serious damage. It launches them from densely populated areas, including hospitals and schools.

Why launch rockets without causing any real damage to the other side, inviting great damage to your own people, then putting your own civilians in the line of fire when the response comes? Even when the IDF warns civilians to evacuate their homes before a strike, why does Hamas tell them to stay put?

Because Hamas knows its cause is helped when Gazans die. If there is one thing that helps Hamas most -- one thing that gives it any legitimacy -- it is dead civilians. Rockets in schools. Hamas exploits the deaths of its children to gain the world's sympathy. It uses them as a weapon.

You don't have to like what Israel is doing to abhor Hamas. Arguably, Israel and Fatah are morally equivalent. Both have a lot of right on their side. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't have a shred of it.

***

5. Why are people asking for Israel to end the "occupation" in Gaza?

Because they have short memories.

In 2005, Israel ended the occupation in Gaza. It pulled out every last Israeli soldier. It dismantled every last settlement. Many Israeli settlers who refused to leave wereforcefully evicted from their homes, kicking and screaming.

This was a unilateral move by Israel, part of a disengagement plan intended to reduce friction between Israelis and Palestinians. It wasn't perfect -- Israel was still to control Gaza's borders, coastline, and airspace -- but considering the history of the region, it was a pretty significant first step.

After the evacuation, Israel opened up border crossings to facilitate commerce. The Palestinians were also given 3,000 greenhouses which had already been producing fruit and flowers for export for many years.

But Hamas chose not to invest in schools, trade, or infrastructure. Instead, it built anextensive network of tunnels to house thousands upon thousands of rockets and weapons, including newer, sophisticated ones from Iran and Syria. All the greenhouses were destroyed.

Hamas did not build any bomb shelters for its people. It did, however, build a few for its leaders to hide out in during airstrikes. Civilians are not given access to these shelters for precisely the same reason Hamas tells them to stay home when the bombs come.

Gaza was given a great opportunity in 2005 that Hamas squandered by transforming it into an anti-Israel weapons store instead of a thriving Palestinian state that, with time, may have served as a model for the future of the West Bank as well. If Fatah needed yet another reason to abhor Hamas, here it was.

***

6. Why are there so many more casualties in Gaza than in Israel?

The reason fewer Israeli civilians die is not because there are fewer rockets raining down on them. It's because they are better protected by their government.

When Hamas' missiles head towards Israel, sirens go off, the Iron Dome goes into effect, and civilians are rushed into bomb shelters. When Israeli missiles head towards Gaza, Hamas tells civilians to stay in their homes and face them.

While Israel's government urges its civilians to get away from rockets targeted at them, Gaza's government urges its civilians to get in front of missiles not targeted at them.

The popular explanation for this is that Hamas is poor and lacks the resources to protect its people like Israel does. The real reason, however, seems to have more to do with disordered priorities than deficient resources (see #5). This is about will, not ability. All those rockets, missiles, and tunnels aren't cheap to build or acquire. But they are priorities. And it's not like Palestinians don't have a handful of oil-rich neighbors to help them the way Israel has the US.

The problem is, if civilian casualties in Gaza drop, Hamas loses the only weapon it has in its incredibly effective PR war. It is in Israel's national interest to protect its civilians and minimize the deaths of those in Gaza. It is in Hamas' interest to do exactly the opposite on both fronts.

***

7. If Hamas is so bad, why isn't everyone pro-Israel in this conflict?

Because Israel's flaws, while smaller in number, are massive in impact.

Many Israelis seem to have the same tribal mentality that their Palestinian counterparts do. They celebrate the bombing of Gaza the same way many Arabs celebrated 9/11. A UN report recently found that Israeli forces tortured Palestinian children and used them as human shields. They beat up teenagers. They are oftenreckless with their airstrikes. They have academics who explain how rape may be the only truly effective weapon against their enemy. And many of them callously and publicly revel in the deaths of innocent Palestinian children.

To be fair, these kinds of things do happen on both sides. They are an inevitable consequence of multiple generations raised to hate the other over the course of 65 plus years. To hold Israel up to a higher standard would mean approaching the Palestinians with the racism of lowered expectations.

However, if Israel holds itself to a higher standard like it claims -- it needs to do much more to show it isn't the same as the worst of its neighbors.

Israel is leading itself towards increasing international isolation and national suicide because of two things: 1. The occupation; and 2. Settlement expansion.

Settlement expansion is simply incomprehensible. No one really understands the point of it. Virtually every US administration -- from Nixon to Bush to Obama -- hasunequivocally opposed it. There is no justification for it except a Biblical one (see #2), which makes it slightly more difficult to see Israel's motives as purely secular.

The occupation is more complicated. The late Christopher Hitchens was right when he said this about Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories:

"In order for Israel to become part of the alliance against whatever we want to call it, religious barbarism, theocratic, possibly thermonuclear theocratic or nuclear theocratic aggression, it can't, it'll have to dispense with the occupation. It's as simple as that.

It can be, you can think of it as a kind of European style, Western style country if you want, but it can't govern other people against their will. It can't continue to steal their land in the way that it does every day.And it's unbelievably irresponsible of Israelis, knowing the position of the United States and its allies are in around the world, to continue to behave in this unconscionable way. And I'm afraid I know too much about the history of the conflict to think of Israel as just a tiny, little island surrounded by a sea of ravening wolves and so on. I mean, I know quite a lot about how that state was founded, and the amount of violence and dispossession that involved. And I'm a prisoner of that knowledge. I can't un-know it."

As seen with Gaza in 2005, unilateral disengagement is probably easier to talk about than actually carry out. But if it Israel doesn't work harder towards a two-state (maybe three-state, thanks to Hamas) solution, it will eventually have to make that ugly choice between being a Jewish-majority state or a democracy.

It's still too early to call Israel an apartheid state, but when John Kerry said Israelcould end up as one in the future, he wasn't completely off the mark. It's simple math. There are only a limited number of ways a bi-national Jewish state with a non-Jewish majority population can retain its Jewish identity. And none of them are pretty.

***

Let's face it, the land belongs to both of them now. Israel was carved out of Palestine for Jews with help from the British in the late 1940s just like my own birthplace of Pakistan was carved out of India for Muslims around the same time. The process was painful, and displaced millions in both instances. But it's been almost 70 years. There are now at least two or three generations of Israelis who were born and raised in this land, to whom it really is a home, and who are often held accountable and made to pay for for historical atrocities that are no fault of their own. They are programmed to oppose "the other" just as Palestinian children are. At its very core, this is a tribal religious conflict that will never be resolved unless people stop choosing sides.

So you really don't have to choose between being "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine." If you support secularism, democracy, and a two-state solution -- and you oppose Hamas, settlement expansion, and the occupation -- you can be both.

If they keep asking you to pick a side after all of that, tell them you're going with hummus.


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## skinnnyfat (Feb 26, 2012)

robbo9 said:


> Did i ever say all??? I like it how people dont see the full picture. I dont agree with killing civilians. Unfortunatly the terrorist group hamas has ruined gaza. And domt forget civilians in gaza are against hamas but if they speak out they are killed. They use them as human shields. If your family home was attacked evwry day what would you do? Israel sends flyers warnings etc to get those civilians out of the way but hamas makes them stay and many missions have been aborted to try keep the population down.


If the people I stole a country from started fireing rockets I would move out not murder their children or place them in a giant prison camp.


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## skinnnyfat (Feb 26, 2012)

robbo9 said:


> . They use them as human shields. If your family home was attacked evwry day what would you do? Israel sends flyers warnings etc to get those civilians out of the way but hamas makes them stay and many missions have been aborted to try keep the population down.


As the international news crews said you get told to leave last minute but have no idea where to go and they have been told to stay off roads at night or they may get shot. All this warning stuff is propaganda bull****. There are not many places to go when you are locked in a prison.


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## skinnnyfat (Feb 26, 2012)

Interesting revision of history aman, shame it's mostly bollocks.


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## A B (Dec 16, 2012)

spod said:


> .....so the body of that 5 year old girl i saw on the news the other day was actually that of a Hamas militant???
> 
> You cannot possibly know that your statement is in any way correct.
> 
> ...


Hamas are known for using children under 5 for suicide bombers and training them as militant extremists, not saying this 5 year old was but you cant put it past these animals.


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## skinnnyfat (Feb 26, 2012)

A B said:


> Hamas are known for using children under 5 for suicide bombers and training them as militant extremists, not saying this 5 year old was but you cant put it past these animals.


 When have hamas used a 5 year old as a bomber? first I ever heard this and Google has no examples.


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## Youngchelsea92 (Aug 22, 2014)

Why do we need to pick sides. Both sides are medieval animals.


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## Youngchelsea92 (Aug 22, 2014)

skinnnyfat said:


> When have hamas used a 5 year old as a bomber? first I ever heard this and Google has no examples.


Every time Hamas use a school/hospital/public place to stash weapons knowing it could be hit


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## robbo9 (Mar 24, 2012)

aman_21 said:


> Are you "pro-Israel" or "pro-Palestine"? It isn't even noon yet as I write this, and I've already been accused of being both.
> 
> These terms intrigue me because they directly speak to the doggedly tribal nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. You don't hear of too many other countries being universally spoken of this way. Why these two? Both Israelis and Palestinians are complex, with diverse histories and cultures, and two incredibly similar (if divisive) religions. To come down completely on the side of one or the other doesn't seem rational to me.
> 
> ...


I think what you have written here is great. The majority of it i agree with and just want to say well written. I see that you are unbiased and appreciate that. I do like to see the point from both sides as i know that there are biased stories from both sides. Ps i live in Israel


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## Khaos1436114653 (Aug 28, 2009)




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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

robbo9 said:


> I think what you have written here is great. The majority of it i agree with and just want to say well written. I see that you are unbiased and appreciate that. I do like to see the point from both sides as i know that there are biased stories from both sides. Ps i live in Israel


What's it like over there? Is it safe enough walking round the streets? I always imagine it to be really posh for some reason.


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## robbo9 (Mar 24, 2012)

I live in the south 30 minutes from gaza and i feel safe. I am on the way to tel aviv now to see my family that have come to see me. Yes people have not come to israel because of the situation but many still come becauae of the love for the country and howbits protected. I was in a bomb shelter last night yet still felt safe. The people in israel try not let whats happening get in there every day doings. Its far from posh ha


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## robbo9 (Mar 24, 2012)

But like everywhere there are some nicer areas


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

robbo9 said:


> But like everywhere there are some nicer areas


Something really draws me to Israel, i've always wanted to visit it. Would you reccomend a non-Jewish couple holidaying there? or is that a complete no go?


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## robbo9 (Mar 24, 2012)

Absolutley!!! The reason i said it is because i came with my non jewish friends (both christian and asian (some being muslim) and they loved it and have even come back without me.


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## robbo9 (Mar 24, 2012)

If you want any info im happy to help as much as i can


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## BettySwallocks (Aug 1, 2012)

robbo9 said:


> If you want any info im happy to help as much as i can


I'm going to have a look into it all mate, may go around easter time next year i'll fire you a PM if i have any questions mate cheers.


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## Calanthe (Aug 26, 2014)

Ofcourse I'm on the side of innocence. *PALESTINE !*


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## pipezilla (Sep 20, 2014)

anyone on the Israeli side need a history lesson.


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## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

pipezilla said:


> anyone on the Israeli side need a history lesson.


Shocking isn't it. Our media completely skew what's actually going on. The population of gaza is 50% children. They are in prisoned. They have been forced back and back, had their villages destroyed and taken over by Israel, not just taken over but the things the Israelis have done to palastinian families is discusting. The people of gaza have home made missiles to defend themselves with, it's like throwing a stone at a riot squad in comparison. The Israelis on the other hand have tested out new chemical weapons which literally burn your flesh, if you go to gaza you will see thousands of people, half of which children, covered in burns and missing limbs. They don't stand a bloody chance, and because our government are paly paly we turn a blind eye.


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## pipezilla (Sep 20, 2014)

IGotTekkers said:


> Shocking isn't it. Our media completely skew what's actually going on. The population of gaza is 50% children. They are in prisoned. They have been forced back and back, had their villages destroyed and taken over by Israel, not just taken over but the things the Israelis have done to palastinian families is discusting. The people of gaza have home made missiles to defend themselves with, it's like throwing a stone at a riot squad in comparison. The Israelis on the other hand have tested out new chemical weapons which literally burn your flesh, if you go to gaza you will see thousands of people, half of which children, covered in burns and missing limbs. They don't stand a bloody chance, and because our government are paly paly we turn a blind eye.


terribly portrayed in the media especially by bias scum scum like fox news. they are treated like second class citizens and when they fight back they are terrorists. they are out manned out weaponed. its like a kid throwing a stone at a tank and he is somehow made look like the terrorist.

View attachment 162320


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

Used to think that Israel were the good guys, coz I believed all the media bs.

Then I started to dig a bit deeper & now see the reverse is true,

But does anyone know why we are fed these lies about Palestine being the "enemy"?


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## jim2509 (Dec 30, 2010)

Neither side as certain elements on both sides do not want peace and will lose their power base should peace be achieved. The whole area is one giant sorry stinking mess, which I guess we are at least partly responsible for.

The sad thing is the complete lack of value the middle east has on human life. I remember seeing a picture once of a father desperately trying to shield his terrified son from harm whilst caught in a a crossfire. Some cowardly bastard Israeli sniper then shot the child, leaving the father hysterical and distraught....that is not soldiering or being tough.

I lost a lot of respect for the Israeli Army after seeing that.


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## josephbloggs (Sep 29, 2013)

latblaster said:


> Used to think that Israel were the good guys, coz I believed all the media bs.
> 
> Then I started to dig a bit deeper & now see the reverse is true,
> 
> But does anyone know why we are fed these lies about Palestine being the "enemy"?


i think a lot has to do with the political support we give israel directly and indirectly, we are obviously big allies with the US and the US is the biggest financial backer of israel, in fact israel is the US's largest recipient of foreign aid and we are don't really want to **** off our powerful ally.

if you look at how we go around the world helping to overthrow regimes we don't like, in libya and syria and the reason the public are given for this is that they are despotic regimes and we are protecting the civilians there. if the media really lay it bare what israel is doing in palestine it would shine a light on the ridiculous hypocrisy and double standards. on one hand we take down tyrants then on the next we support others. i don't actually think the media goes as far as showing palestine as the "enemy" but i think they try to portray it as being a both sides are as bad as the other kind affair. when israel are clearly the aggressor, if as you say you dig a bit deeper.

thats my opinion anyway.


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## frankie1905 (Aug 27, 2013)

Calanthe said:


> Ofcourse I'm on the side of innocence. *PALESTINE !*


Haha innocence?!? Should definitely read a bit more into the situation there's blood on both sides just like when we were in Northern Ireland! The difference is we eventually put a stop to the bombings and entered the peace process, how can Israel do this when Palestine are firing missiles and using dirty tactics like car bombs and suicide vests! They are the fuel to the fire always have been always will be just because Israel have better weapons doesn't mean ish they have to otherwise they would be wiped off the map it's a bitter survival that's war end of!


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

@josephbloggs

Good post Joe.

I think alot of the 'Political Unrest" is stirred up covertly...maybe by the us.

Then they can be the "saviours" & take the country over.

The US have too much of an interest in Myanmar (Burma) simply because they have huge natural resources.


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## raj-m (May 28, 2010)

Israel kills more innocent kids.

its simple, Palestine

every American president thats sworn in always mentions Israel as an ally


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

I am on neither side, although it is obvious one side has a secular rational government in charge and the other have foaming at the mouth anti-semites in charge who openly call for the extermination of the jews and who idolize people like the Grand Mufti and other Jihadists who planned to collude with the Nazi's to kill and deport the jews of Israel to Europe to be exterminated and used as slave labour.

Do Palestinians have righteous grievances? Of course, but they also have a lot of people who have such extremist stances against Israel due to hatred and devotion to religious scripture rather than those clear and reasonable grievances.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

raj-m said:


> Israel kills more innocent kids.
> 
> its simple, Palestine
> 
> every American president thats sworn in always mentions Israel as an ally


More German women and children died in ww2 than all allied nations civillian losses, would that mean you would of supported th e Axis during ww2?

Palestinian Jihadists actually target women and children, Israel goes to great lengths to avoid killing children, the problem is Palestinian fighters launch missiles out of school grounds, they use peoples homes as fire bases, that makes it impossible for Israel to only kill fighters.


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## dann19900 (Dec 29, 2012)

still team palestine but hardly as 1 sided as people make out. As far as I've read. The UN gave part to the jews, the arab countries didn't like this and around 10 countries invaded israel and got smashed to bits? Didn't Israel even offer a lot of the land back that they'd taken from their counter attack? And also as above palestinians would do themselves a favour kicking out all the terrorists. Not sure what people mean about the media being unfair either? It was constantly on tv showing israel smashing them senseless before ISIS took over news stories


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## 1990 (Jan 31, 2011)

Boycott apartheid Israeli goods


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

Normsky said:


> More German women and children died in ww2 than all allied nations civillian losses, would that mean you would of supported th e Axis during ww2?
> 
> Palestinian Jihadists actually target women and children, Israel goes to great lengths to avoid killing children, the problem is Palestinian fighters launch missiles out of school grounds, they use peoples homes as fire bases, that makes it impossible for Israel to only kill fighters.


Ehm, just a quick fact check, the Soviet loses outstripped ever other nations loses by enormous amounts. Estimated deaths from some for WW2 are upwards of 60 million, the deaths of Soviet 'citizens' is estimated by some as being 26 million. Polish, Czech loses were also immense.

In relation to the intifadas and Israeli Iron Wall strategy (maximum force) - the Palestinians being deprived of a legitimate nation state and thus a functioning budget cannot 'choose' to target. They do not have the resources to do so. Why? Full land and sea sanction have denuded the 'state' the opportunity to feed its people nevermind invest in advanced weaponry to hone in on military targets. Israel however receives $13 billion of direst funding from the US per annum, and hugely discounted and favourable options n advanced weaponry. Which can target military installations. Now, I am no apologist for terror, and indiscriminate murder is intolerable, abhorrent and indefensible. But an important debate such as this needs accurate context.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

dann19900 said:


> still team palestine but hardly as 1 sided as people make out. As far as I've read. The UN gave part to the jews, the arab countries didn't like this and around 10 countries invaded israel and got smashed to bits? Didn't Israel even offer a lot of the land back that they'd taken from their counter attack? And also as above palestinians would do themselves a favour kicking out all the terrorists. Not sure what people mean about the media being unfair either? It was constantly on tv showing israel smashing them senseless before ISIS took over news stories


Aint got time right now, but the part about 10 countries invading Israel is Bllx, you have to be careful with reading about this issue, much propaganda gets spread by Israelis, despite that world opinion is against them, they control much of the media. If the media were to report all the facts fairly and if rich and powerful nations were not biased, Israel would be forced to end its occupation just as the South Africans were forced to end apartheid.


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

12 gauge said:


> Aint got time right now, but the part about 10 countries invading Israel is Bllx, you have to be careful with reading about this issue, much propaganda gets spread by Israelis, despite that world opinion is against them, they control much of the media. If the media were to report all the facts fairly and if rich and powerful nations were not biased, Israel would be forced to end its occupation just as the South Africans were forced to end apartheid.


Ehm, tbh even Palestinians, Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians and the Lebanese don't deny invading Israel....they have had 3 direct wars. Those are indisputable facts of history. Why would they deny this or Israel make this up? There is no conspiracy regarding the wars, just different opinions on the reasons for and legitimacy of. Frankly Israelis can hardly be blamed for the stretch of land (it is inhospitable and other than satsumas, olives and tomatoes) devoid of exportable natural resources they were granted as territory. For the 50 years before this Zionist such as Herzl were trying to find land anywhere to escape persecution, including in South America.


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## Warrior87 (Nov 24, 2014)

All is just ridiculous...they are the same race. Jews from Israel and surrounding areas and Palestinians are all Semites. Yes...the same race.

Zionism is the problem.

Israel is essentially an illegal country who illegally hold un-sanctioned and unregulated nuclear weapons.

Palestine was a country for hundreds of years, my Grandad was stationed there for a short while during ww2

I am in no way anti-Jewish, but Zionism which is a political doctrine has killed hundreds of thousands! And Eye for an eye leaves us all blind


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

notdorianyates said:


> Ehm, tbh even Palestinians, Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians and the Lebanese don't deny invading Israel....they have had 3 direct wars. Those are indisputable facts of history. Why would they deny this or Israel make this up? There is no conspiracy regarding the wars, just different opinions on the reasons for and legitimacy of. Frankly Israelis can hardly be blamed for the stretch of land (it is inhospitable and other than satsumas, olives and tomatoes) devoid of exportable natural resources they were granted as territory. For the 50 years before this Zionist such as Herzl were trying to find land anywhere to escape persecution, including in South America.


Here is something I wrote in a previous thread



> In 1947 after the situation spiralled out of control the British handed the problem over to the united nations, the U.N decided to give 43% of the land to the Palestinians despite the fact that they comprised in excess of 2 thirds of the population and owned over 92% of the land, Jews were to be given 56% even though they comprised one third of the population and owned less than 8% of the land.Not only were the Jews given most of the land, they were given the most fertile land.At this point the Zionists took advantage of their superior military preparations and immediately began occupying major Arab cities in Palestine.It was at this point that the ethnic cleansing and expulsion and massacre of Palestinians began on a mass scale. Contrary to popular belief it was only after hundreds of thousands of Palestinians had been driven out of their homes that the neighbouring Arab countries sent troops into Palestine after Israel officially announced its statehood. Israel went on to defeat the outnumbered Arab army and in fact took over a large part of the designated Palestinian state,the new state of Israel encompassed 78% of the total land of Palestine.


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

Warrior87 said:


> All is just ridiculous...they are the same race. Jews from Israel and surrounding areas and Palestinians are all Semites. Yes...the same race.
> 
> Zionism is the problem.
> 
> ...


Good post mate. Lots don't realise the term anti-Semitism actually refers to all from the Mashreg (Mashreq = east of Egypt/ Arabia) not simply Jews as we tend to think. Israel is a legal country but occupies illegally lands that were designated to the Palestinians and then occupied in 1968, then 1972. The real problem stems from British occupation after WW2, and incredibly a Tory government who needed a small Jewish constituency in England to win - and gave their support to the idea of a Jewish homeland in what was then land occupied by 'Palestinians' (although it was not a nation state as we know it).


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

12 gauge said:


> Here is something I wrote in a previous thread


Absolutely agreed. Infrequently have the surrounding nations attacked, embargoed or criticised Isreal's illegal occupation out of moral compunction, they have done it from Nasser, to Sadat, to Asad, to Abdullah to divert domestic unrest against an all too easy target. Nasser did this to help him create the idea of a pan- Arab nationalism. In fact groups such as Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad are funded and staffed by nationals from these countries. And btw, the still regional power of the time and ex-occupier of the territory at the time, Britain, stood back and allowed the ethnic cleansing to take place whilst abstaining (alongside the US) from key votes at the UN.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

notdorianyates said:


> Ehm, just a quick fact check, the Soviet loses outstripped ever other nations loses by enormous amounts. Estimated deaths from some for WW2 are upwards of 60 million, the deaths of Soviet 'citizens' is estimated by some as being 26 million. Polish, Czech loses were also immense.
> 
> In relation to the intifadas and Israeli Iron Wall strategy (maximum force) - the Palestinians being deprived of a legitimate nation state and thus a functioning budget cannot 'choose' to target. They do not have the resources to do so. Why? Full land and sea sanction have denuded the 'state' the opportunity to feed its people nevermind invest in advanced weaponry to hone in on military targets. Israel however receives $13 billion of direst funding from the US per annum, and hugely discounted and favourable options n advanced weaponry. Which can target military installations. Now, I am no apologist for terror, and indiscriminate murder is intolerable, abhorrent and indefensible. But an important debate such as this needs accurate context.


I was talking about the Ariel bombardments because both GB and Germany and France were all EU nations who suffered them. The German civillians were killed at a much higher rate from bombs than their GB and French counterparts.

You are 100% correct about the SU and their civillian population being hardest hit, however the comparison was between the EU allies and axis as both the stats I mentioned were about bombs killing cvillians, which is how most are killed in Palestine.

The poster said because more Palestinian kids die than Israeli kids he supports the Palestinian side. More German kids dies than English kids, does this mean that he would support the German side over the English?

My point was death toll does not automatically indicate which side is morally virtuous.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

notdorianyates said:


> Absolutely agreed. Infrequently have the surrounding nations attacked, embargoed or criticised Isreal's illegal occupation out of moral compunction, they have done it from Nasser, to Sadat, to Asad, to Abdullah to divert domestic unrest against an all too easy target. Nasser did this to help him create the idea of a pan- Arab nationalism. In fact groups such as Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad are funded and staffed by nationals from these countries. And btw, the still regional power of the time and ex-occupier of the territory at the time, Britain, stood back and allowed the ethnic cleansing to take place whilst abstaining (alongside the US) from key votes at the UN.


The first Islamic opposition to Israel was by the AlQassam Brigade who opposed legal immigration by Jews to land legally purchased from Palestinians, not on the basis of occupation but out of religious hate for Jewry. It was not until groups like these started killing legal and peaceful Israeli settlers that Israeli's started killing Muslims in the region.


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

Normsky said:


> I was talking about the Ariel bombardments because both GB and Germany and France were all EU nations who suffered them. The German civillians were killed at a much higher rate from bombs than their GB and French counterparts.
> 
> You are 100% correct about the SU and their civillian population being hardest hit, however the comparison was between the EU allies and axis as both the stats I mentioned were about bombs killing cvillians, which is how most are killed in Palestine.
> 
> ...


Nicely put Normsky! Great moral argument. Actually there is a great book and debate on this about our aerial bombardment of German cities during the final years of WW2 suggesting that as they in fact killed more civilians that Nagasaki/ Hiroshima the British are equally guilty or war crimes as other nations (which of course being subjective is probably true). But as you suggest it is the moral stance that is important, the reasons for the war, ours being the final nation left in Europe free of Nazism etc. And there by makes a double link to the Palestinian issue. Being the only nation-state where Jews have guaranteed protection from a government (instead of the 2,000 years of history of persecution) and the second being the fact that it was out of the very atrocities of the Second World War that mean that Israel would become the nation-state that would protect Jews.


----------



## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Warrior87 said:


> All is just ridiculous...they are the same race. Jews from Israel and surrounding areas and Palestinians are all Semites. Yes...the same race.
> 
> Zionism is the problem.
> 
> ...


Zionism was a movement that was trying to get the jews out of Europe as they were being beaten to death, burnt alive, subjected to mass killing and pogroms and forced expulsions all throughout Europe, by the hundreds of thousands, which culminated in the Holocaust.

Zionist settlers to Israel bought the land from Palestinians, Israeli's only settled on purchased land until Muslims started killing jews, they then fought back. Back in the day the Israeli's were the underdogs, now however the roles are reversed.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

We should just seperate them by building a big wall of pork.


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## Man Like What (Oct 25, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Zionism *was* a movement that was trying to get the jews out of Europe as they were being beaten to death, burnt alive, subjected to mass killing and pogroms and forced expulsions all throughout Europe, by the hundreds of thousands, which culminated in the Holocaust.
> 
> Zionist settlers to Israel bought the land from Palestinians, Israeli's only settled on purchased land until Muslims started killing jews, they then fought back. Back in the day the Israeli's were the underdogs, now however the roles are reversed.


'Was' being the operative word. It's not something very different.

That last paragraph is just nonsense.


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

Normsky said:


> The first Islamic opposition to Israel was by the AlQassam Brigade who opposed legal immigration by Jews to land legally purchased from Palestinians, not on the basis of occupation but out of religious hate for Jewry. It was not until groups like these started killing legal and peaceful Israeli settlers that Israeli's started killing Muslims in the region.


Hmmm arguable. Actually it was political Zionism unxder Herzl in the late 19th century that started the antagonism between the two peoples. Political Zionism was actually not hugely religious. The real problems for the two religions increased with migration due to Herlz's movement. Irgun in the late 20s and 30s increased its activity against British 'occupation', terror activities that agitated against Palestinians. ANd who became the first Israeli PM- Irgun key member, Menachem Begin.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

notdorianyates said:


> Hmmm arguable. Actually it was political Zionism unxder Herzl in the late 19th century that started the antagonism between the two peoples. Political Zionism was actually not hugely religious. The real problems for the two religions increased with migration due to Herltz's movement. Irgun in the late 20s and 30s increased its activity against British 'occupation', terror activities that agitated against Palestinians. ANd who became the first Israeli PM- Irgun key member, Menachem Begin.


I believe Izz ad-Dn bin Abd al-Qder bin Mustafa bin Yousef bin Muhammad al-Qassm's (looked up his proper name couldn't remember it all ) black hand group was the first group to enact the real hostilities that then pushed the Israeli side to respond and commit their own atrocities.

I am not denying the responses by Israel were just as bad as those perpetrated by the Jihadists, but they were not the ones who started them is my only point.

People unjustly paint the conflict as being started by Israel, yet reading any non political historical text on the issue, you see Muslims killing peaceful settler who purchased land fairly from Arabs, what were the jews supposed to do?


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

> We should just seperate them by building a big wall of pork.


Atheists would just settle there and demolish it with their rational mouths, plus which side would build it, muslims or jews


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Atheists would just settle there and demolish it with their rational mouths, plus which side would build it, muslims or jews


Catholics and Protestants should build it, they have a fantastic history of settling historical disputes with monumental walls that simply defer issues but never sort them.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

notdorianyates said:


> Catholics and Protestants should build it, they have a fantastic history of settling historical disputes with monumental walls that simply defer issues but never sort them.


It is a conspiracy, A cabal of graffiti artists engineered the troubles in order to build the peace lines for their twisted need for art space


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## Warrior87 (Nov 24, 2014)

Normsky said:


> Zionism was a movement that was trying to get the jews out of Europe as they were being beaten to death, burnt alive, subjected to mass killing and pogroms and forced expulsions all throughout Europe, by the hundreds of thousands, which culminated in the Holocaust.
> 
> Zionist settlers to Israel bought the land from Palestinians, Israeli's only settled on purchased land until Muslims started killing jews, they then fought back. Back in the day the Israeli's were the underdogs, now however the roles are reversed.


Have you been smoking crack? Zionism has been around longer than the Holocaust. Besides the most powerful Jewish families and also the most powerful families in the world...Rothschild and Rockerfellers did noting to prevent the Holocaust, in full knowledge of what was happening. The Rockerfellers in fact helped the Nazi's by providing a key ingredient in the gas used to exterminate millions. At the same time bank rolling both sides of the war


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## Sams (Nov 3, 2013)

Whats the latest on this one anyway, don't watch the news


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

Warrior87 said:


> Have you been smoking crack? Zionism has been around longer than the Holocaust. Besides the most powerful Jewish families and also the most powerful families in the world...Rothschild and Rockerfellers did noting to prevent the Holocaust, in full knowledge of what was happening. The Rockerfellers in fact helped the Nazi's by providing a key ingredient in the gas used to exterminate millions. At the same time bank rolling both sides of the war


How did you not tell by my sentence I have actually studied the history of zionism and indeed know it predates the holocaust. As I said zionism was a movement that aimed to remove the jews of Europe from the anti-semitic enviorement which included ethnic cleansing, forced expulsion, mass killing in Europe, the Holocaust was merely the end result of hundreds of years of jews being massacred.

Zionism was a response to treatment a billion times worse than the palestinians have ever endured.

By the way all these jewish conspiracies are just repackaged anti semitic hate from European anti-semitism sentiment that was what caused the holocaust.

Yes Jews due to their forced removal of most jobs by christians ended up in the usury and investment capital industries, as a result they are over represented in those fields, this does not constitute world domination by the jewish Illuminati.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Normsky said:


> Zionism was a response to treatment a billion times worse than the palestinians have ever endured.


Over exaggerated Bllx, the zionists are committing crimes against the Palestinians, similar to what the Nazis committed against the Jews.


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

12 gauge said:


> Over exaggerated Bllx, the zionists are committing crimes against the Palestinians, similar to what the Nazis committed against the Jews.


They are in no way similar, Nazi's gassed jews, hunted down jews and shot them in the thousands into ditches, used them as slave labour, performed experiments on jewish children unspeakably horrific and sadistic.

Israeli's drop leaflets warning muslim civillians of bombing raids against Hamas.

Comparing those is anti Semitic.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)




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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

Normsky said:


> It is a conspiracy, A cabal of graffiti artists engineered the troubles in order to build the peace lines for their twisted need for art space


Arrest Banksy NOW!! LOL!


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## Warrior87 (Nov 24, 2014)

Normsky said:


> How did you not tell by my sentence I have actually studied the history of zionism and indeed know it predates the holocaust. As I said zionism was a movement that aimed to remove the jews of Europe from the anti-semitic enviorement which included ethnic cleansing, forced expulsion, mass killing in Europe, the Holocaust was merely the end result of hundreds of years of jews being massacred.
> 
> Zionism was a response to treatment a billion times worse than the palestinians have ever endured.
> 
> ...


I think you are a Zionist spy!!! Someone arrest this man


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

Normsky said:


> I believe Izz ad-Dn bin Abd al-Qder bin Mustafa bin Yousef bin Muhammad al-Qassm's (looked up his proper name couldn't remember it all ) black hand group was the first group to enact the real hostilities that then pushed the Israeli side to respond and commit their own atrocities.
> 
> I am not denying the responses by Israel were just as bad as those perpetrated by the Jihadists, but they were not the ones who started them is my only point.
> 
> People unjustly paint the conflict as being started by Israel, yet reading any non political historical text on the issue, you see Muslims killing peaceful settler who purchased land fairly from Arabs, what were the jews supposed to do?


Non-political historical text....on the Arab-Israeli conflict?! Well, having written part of my PhD on it I have struggled to find any such text! Avi Schlaim's book is a good start, but then I would say that I suppose...!

To misquote a common maxim, one man's peaceful settler is anothers foreign coloniser. I am not certain that the term jihadi applies to those early protagonists either, it was not at this stage a wholly religious exchange but about the even older human battle over territory and resources and from the 'Palestinians' perspective, and that of the United Nations (and LofN) they were there first.

Some would argue that although Jewish settlers (not Israelis) may not have started the violence, it was their increasing presence that agitated into today's implacable animosity. In a similar way that Protestants may not start the violence on Orange Order Marches, they cannot surely be wholly absolved of the blame.


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## lostwars (Nov 7, 2008)

the jewish army are child killers, theres no justification for murdering a few kids having a kickabout on the beach


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## SickCurrent (Sep 19, 2005)

I've condensed this thread no need to read all 30 pages...


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

SickCurrent said:


> I've condensed this thread no need to read all 30 pages...


Fantastic, a cartoon version of what usually appears on the news when there is another Gaza flare-up.

Well found SC!


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

notdorianyates said:


> Non-political historical text....on the Arab-Israeli conflict?! Well, having written part of my PhD on it I have struggled to find any such text! Avi Schlaim's book is a good start, but then I would say that I suppose...!
> 
> To misquote a common maxim, one man's peaceful settler is anothers foreign coloniser. I am not certain that the term jihadi applies to those early protagonists either, it was not at this stage a wholly religious exchange but about the even older human battle over territory and resources and from the 'Palestinians' perspective, and that of the United Nations (and LofN) they were there first.
> 
> Some would argue that although Jewish settlers (not Israelis) may not have started the violence, it was their increasing presence that agitated into today's implacable animosity. In a similar way that *Protestants may not start the violence on Orange Order Marches*, they cannot surely be wholly absolved of the blame.


yes they always do


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

barsnack said:


> yes they always do


My bad, should have said "....arguably, may not always start the violence"!!!


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## Normsky (Aug 29, 2014)

notdorianyates said:


> Non-political historical text....on the Arab-Israeli conflict?! Well, having written part of my PhD on it I have struggled to find any such text! Avi Schlaim's book is a good start, but then I would say that I suppose...!
> 
> To misquote a common maxim, one man's peaceful settler is anothers foreign coloniser. I am not certain that the term jihadi applies to those early protagonists either, it was not at this stage a wholly religious exchange but about the even older human battle over territory and resources and from the 'Palestinians' perspective, and that of the United Nations (and LofN) they were there first.
> 
> Some would argue that although Jewish settlers (not Israelis) may not have started the violence, it was their increasing presence that agitated into today's implacable animosity. In a similar way that Protestants may not start the violence on Orange Order Marches, they cannot surely be wholly absolved of the blame.


I know that is one side of the arguement, however I don't see legal immigration by any group to foreign lands to be reason to engage in violence against them, in my personal opinion, people claiming its the Israeli's fault for migrating there are just as bad as people who claim jewish migration and establishment in Germany was at fault for the Nazi's genocide of Jews.

This is why I maintain the claim the reason the conflict is so hard to settle is that the palestinian side are not rational actors, their legitimate political grievances are later reasons for fighting the jews, the initial and enduring reason was anti semitism, nationalism and xenophobia.

If people from Luxembourg migrated en masse to Wigan and they became 99% of the population and democratically gained independence and nationhood my reaction would not be to kill them, my reaction would be to simply be a good person and treat them how they treated me. I would not support a charter calling for all Luxembourg born peoples to be driven into the sea.


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## latblaster (Oct 26, 2013)

notdorianyates said:


> Fantastic, a cartoon version of what usually appears on the news when there is another Gaza flare-up.
> 
> Well found SC!


'

Might be a slightly glib comment, but with the dumbing, oversimplification & 'instant' everything. ..

I wonder how long before there's a News Show that really is just cartoons.

It would make its soo much easier for the 'great unwashed' to understand. :bounce:

:whistling:


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

latblaster said:


> '
> 
> Might be a slightly glib comment, but with the dumbing, oversimplification & 'instant' everything. ..
> 
> ...


Lol, my money's on Channel 5!!


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## AlexB18 (Dec 10, 2013)

Ive voted couldn't give a damn but that doesn't truly reflect my opinion on the matter, tbh I don't know anywhere near enough about the history behind the two countries to make a proper informed decision as to whos side im on as it were, that said any conflict over religion is in my opinion stupid anyway. However I do feel for the innocent women and children caught up in this conflict.


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

Normsky said:


> I know that is one side of the arguement, however I don't see legal immigration by any group to foreign lands to be reason to engage in violence against them, in my personal opinion, people claiming its the Israeli's fault for migrating there are just as bad as people who claim jewish migration and establishment in Germany was at fault for the Nazi's genocide of Jews.
> 
> This is why I maintain the claim the reason the conflict is so hard to settle is that the palestinian side are not rational actors, their legitimate political grievances are later reasons for fighting the jews, the initial and enduring reason was anti semitism, nationalism and xenophobia.
> 
> If people from Luxembourg migrated en masse to Wigan and they became 99% of the population and democratically gained independence and nationhood my reaction would not be to kill them, my reaction would be to simply be a good person and treat them how they treated me. I would not support a charter calling for all Luxembourg born peoples to be driven into the sea.


hi mate, keep coming back to this! To put my response in context: I am an internationalist and have worked at the Holocaust centre in Yad Vashem and in DC, but I don't see the correlation here

1) Agreed in regard to immigration and violence. But Jewish immigration was not legal in a modern context, it was legitimised in very murky domestic UK politics (as I wrote earlier) and as a result the Palestinians had a forced influx to deal with. In a moment of pedantry, they were Europeans (in the main) who were Jewish, not Israelis. There was not really migration of Jews to Germany in any particular number, the Jews in Germany, were Germans, who were Jewish instead of, for instance, Protestant. I've never heard an argument that suggests anti-Semitism in Germany post the Dreyfus affair flare-up in France was in any degree related to immigration.

2. The motions passed by the UN General Assembly on behalf of the Palestinians have been based in international law and a return to either pre-War of Independence or 1967 borders. Irrespective of any original, debatable, xenophobic assertions. It is definitely arguable that both sides can be equally nationalistic, myopic and bigoted - but the arguments since CLinton's push for peace in the 1990s have been absolutely rooted in international law.

3. Any international migration as you describe on this scale would have consequences. Look at the consequences when small populations move in to new communities - you could cite Italians moving in to NY and the reactions of the existing Irish, Poles to Peterborough or the European Jewry to Palestine. The difference is the Iron Wall reaction of Israel - always and purposefully disproportionate to deter future attacks (this is simply a stated fact of the IDFs military doctrine). It would be like in your analogy, a large population moving from Luxembourg to Wigan without the consent of the British government, or people. The immigrants taking land, becoming the majority, actively relocating / displacing the original inhabitants, becoming militarily superior and in response to any insurrection (yes, indiscriminate, arguably through necessity) disproportionally responding. How would the local community, and the population of that region feel?

When you then put this in a more realistic context, of a group from an entirely different continent, religion and culture being allowed through an outside agent to whom you have no ability to influence (the whole region was at best a group of dominions in the early 20th century therefore were given no say, as evidenced in the make up of the League of Nations) moving to what have for at least dozens of generations been your culture's/ races'/ religion's lands it would be difficult to imagine a situation taking place where there wasn't animus and at least occasional violence.


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## Tonk007 (Jan 1, 2012)

lostwars said:


> the jewish army are child killers, theres no justification for murdering a few kids having a kickabout on the beach


x100


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

There's no justification for blowing yourself up in a crowded coffee shop either.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Dave1180 said:


> There's no justification for blowing yourself up in a crowded coffee shop either.


Whens the last time that happened, it doesn't stop the Israelis from shelling kids though does it?


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

I'm sick of this constant obsession with the welfare of foreign nations, the Westminster elite love to ignore the cries of our own people while working and middle class people visit food-banks to survive, mass unemployment is present in our major towns and cities, homelessness rampant and over population is straining our public services to the breaking point. If only they would concentrate on Britain for f'ing change, you know that place we live in...


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

12 gauge said:


> Whens the last time that happened, it doesn't stop the Israelis from shelling kids though does it?


Which doesn't stop Palestinians from attacking worshippers or shoppers does it?


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Dave1180 said:


> Which doesn't stop Palestinians from attacking worshippers or shoppers does it?


The Palestinians are reacting to severe provocation, the Zionist controlled media only shows you the reaction and not the provocation.


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

12 gauge said:


> The Palestinians are reacting to severe provocation, the Zionist controlled media only shows you the reaction and not the provocation.


The Israelis are only reacting to provocation from a terrorist organisation...

We can keep going around in circles if you fancy it?

Its become a complete pile of crap and tit for tat attacks


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Dave1180 said:


> The Israelis are only reacting to provocation from a terrorist organisation...
> 
> We can keep going around in circles if you fancy it?
> 
> Its become a complete pile of crap and tit for tat attacks


Thats bllx, if I take what belongs to you, you wouldn't say that.


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

I wouldn't take it out on your family and friends


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Dave1180 said:


> I wouldn't take it out on your family and friends


Yeah, if my family and friends kicked you and your family out of your home and left you with nothing and dehumanised you to the point where you felt you had very little to live for,I'm sure you'd be a reasonable person capable of making rationale decisions.


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

No I'm pretty sure I'd then go attack your family, friends, neighbours or anyone you've spoken to or worked with...


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Dave1180 said:


> No I'm pretty sure I'd then go attack your family, friends, neighbours or anyone you've spoken to or worked with...


Not all Palestinians do that, but are we to blame the victims in all of this for going crazy and absolve the real criminals of all blame?


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## lostwars (Nov 7, 2008)

Dave1180 said:


> There's no justification for blowing yourself up in a crowded coffee shop either.


firstly theres a huge difference between a trained fighter pilot fighting in a professional army and a 13 yr old child who is so naive, he is been used by other more experienced fighters who will use his innocence to carry out what is such a horrific operation

secondly the above methods of killing for some reason dont carry the same amount of anger or disgust, to kill from the skies where you dont see or here the sounds of your victims chatting away, laughing, making plans, while a kid walks into the centre of the group having a coffee break is much more personal,evil even

no picture your brother or cousin whos 13, he dont talk politics, he loves his PS4 maybe has his 1st g/f, what would he have to have seen or witness to become so distressed hateful angry that he would kill women and children out for a coffee in the middle of the day?

maybe he had to scrape bits of his brothers and sisters brain matter from his eyes after a brave israeli pilot decided to drop a 1000lb warhead into his family home from 10,000 feet, the soldier didnt know who was in the apartment block, but it was close to a makeshift medical center and sure the aftermath of your bomb is only been witnessed after you land safely back in israel happy you have killed a number of palestinians hopefully some fighters were been treated in the small hospital

such lowlifes the palestinians to put a medical center right beside a block of housing

the interior minister reports latter in the day that a group of militants were getting ready to launch what are just fancy halloween kasam rockets into israel and the fighter pilot had to rteact to protect the borders, although complete lies, hell do the same to morrow and the day after until over

2200 palestinian dead mostly civilians, thousands wounded to the extend every family has been affected by the slaughter during the summer of 2014

77 israeli dead, 65 soliders killed


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## lostwars (Nov 7, 2008)

GCMAX said:


> I'm sick of this constant obsession with the welfare of foreign nations, the Westminster elite love to ignore the cries of our own people while working and middle class people visit food-banks to survive, mass unemployment is present in our major towns and cities, homelessness rampant and over population is straining our public services to the breaking point. If only they would concentrate on Britain for f'ing change, you know that place we live in...


well maybe you should ask your local MP why the UK sold upto 7million quids worth of killing material to israel during the summer while now there debating on if theyl recgonise palestine as a state

considering the balflour agreement a british MP who decided after world war 2 that he could not draw up a map which was fair to palestine, the UK has a huge resonsibility to make peace in the region, only it dont suit them and never will

the UK did a fair bit of invading and conquering other nations in the past, stealing its natural mineral wealth, silver Gold wheat corn rice,alot has changed since because there not to happy that the countries they invaded, some of there citizens have the neck to want to go to england and start a future, cheeky beggers

englands population resembles a team in the premiership, you have ppl from 100s of countries wanting to come to the UK

so generations gone are to blame for the watering down of what it was to be british, and alot of that has happened post WW11


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## dave1180 (Aug 19, 2009)

12 gauge said:


> Not all Palestinians do that, but are we to blame the victims in all of this for going crazy and absolve the real criminals of all blame?


Were the 5 people attacked in the synagogue responsible for any attacks on Palestinians?

I'm pretty sure if it was Palestinian people being hacked up with meat cleavers while praying you'd be pretty appalled but seen as it wasn't the attack was ok and justified.. That there is the problem.. Palestinians and people like yourself are unwilling to accept that things like that are wrong, instead you all look for excuses. Just like the poster above making excuses for suicide bombers..


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## josephbloggs (Sep 29, 2013)

Dave1180 said:


> *Were the 5 people attacked in the synagogue responsible for any attacks on Palestinians?*
> 
> I'm pretty sure if it was Palestinian people being hacked up with meat cleavers while praying you'd be pretty appalled but seen as it wasn't the attack was ok and justified.. That there is the problem.. Palestinians and people like yourself are unwilling to accept that things like that are wrong, instead you all look for excuses. Just like the poster above making excuses for suicide bombers..


were any of the children killed by israeli air raids responsible for any attacks on isarelis?

you can go around in circles with this until the cows come home. the bottom line is israel is illegally occupying palestine and continues to build further settlements on their land. the entire world more or less agree that israel is illegally occupying palestine even the US (israel's biggest ally) officially agrees with this.

so until a reversal of the occupation starts to take place, israel is the aggressor. you cannot take chunks of another country and force your own will on the people there and expect them not to try and fight back in whatever manner they can.


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

lostwars said:


> well maybe you should ask your local MP


Written letters and emailed MP's approx. 5 times in the past, never got a reply. It's a waste of time as they are not my MP's, they don't serve the people anymore.



lostwars said:


> UK has a huge resonsibility to make peace in the region


NO. We have a huge responsibility to fix our own countries problems, first and foremost before we collapse from bankruptcy and social upheaval.



lostwars said:


> the UK did a fair bit of invading and conquering other nations in the past, stealing its natural mineral wealth


Sick of hearing this tired left-wing, anti-British rhetoric. The Great British Empire ended over 150 years ago and no single person alive today is responsible for any negative aspects of it, of which there were a few but also many positives which never get talked about like the industrial revolution or the many amazing inventions during that inspiring period of history.



lostwars said:


> so generations gone are to blame for the watering down of what it was to be british


The Labour party are primarily responsible for the evaporation of our national identity due to their cloak and dagger policy of mass immigration in the 90's, which no sane Briton would have ever agreed to.


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## lostwars (Nov 7, 2008)

GCMAX said:


> Written letters and emailed MP's approx. 5 times in the past, never got a reply. It's a waste of time as they are not my MP's, they don't serve the people anymore.
> 
> NO. We have a huge responsibility to fix our own countries problems, first and foremost before we collapse from bankruptcy and social upheaval.
> 
> ...


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## lostwars (Nov 7, 2008)

joesphbloggs somes it up perfectly


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

lostwars said:


> The British empire ended 150 years ago? In 1864? How?


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

notdorianyates said:


> I said (over) 150 years ago so it's not inaccurate. Abolition of slavery occurred in 1833 and since then no more countries have been invaded and conquered: unless you are including Iraq, Afghan and Libya and if you are, I would say it was more of an American requirement for British government to cooperate with their murderous schedule than an act of free will by British parliamentarians.
> 
> EDIT: discounting the infamous Tony B Liar of course.


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## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

GCMAX said:


> I said (over) 150 years ago so it's not inaccurate. Abolition of slavery occurred in 1833 and since then no more countries have been invaded and conquered: unless you are including Iraq, Afghan and Libya and if you are, I would say it was more of an American requirement for British government to cooperate with their murderous schedule than an act of free will by British parliamentarians.


Some countries only gained independence is the 1940's and 1960's, up until then they were a part of the British empire.


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

lostwars said:


> i support free movement if the person is going to work within 6 mths of arrival in any european country


Why 6 months? Surely if there was a work placement here that a home grown citizen could not fill then you would want the outsider to immediately start work in that position, not in 6 months.

It has been remarked upon recently by many politicians and left wing sources that free movement of Labour is part of the EU, this is disingenuous at best as this would not cause many problems, unfortunately the truth is that the free movement of people, whether they are here to work or not, forms an underlying principle of the EU constitution. Labour has nothing to do with it.


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## YahyaKoprulu (Dec 7, 2014)

i think israel is the biggest terrorist country in the world


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## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

I wish I had bigger muscles


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## mymumbeatsme (Sep 12, 2014)

barsnack said:


> I wish I had bigger muscles


Me too, brah. Me too.


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

YahyaKoprulu said:


> i think israel is the biggest terrorist country in the world


Well as a statememt of facts, the US has invaded more foreign countries than any other, China has invaded none (of course Tibetans would argue differently.) So I guess it depends how you define terrorism.


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## notdorianyates (Nov 12, 2014)

GCMAX said:


> Ah, well I understand. Generally empire is considered as the possessiom of foreign territories in which case GB had a vast empire into the 1910s, which then through necessity became dominions as well as continued sovereign lands (india etc). All of which the Americans loathed. Ostensibly through an article of faith in peoples right to self governance but really because it kept Britain powerful.


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

I have been in Israel a few times and had these conversations. Actually some Israelis do f#ck me off talking about their holy land and forefathers constantly like they have some God given right to do what they want. Heard it more than once. The easy jet flight was a nightmare. There are no allocated seating so I had all these Hasidic jews passengers moving everyone around because a guy can't sit next to their wife. We refused and they complained to the airline staff. They insisted we move which annoyed my missus. She told one of them to go and get a BA flight the cheap gits and stop affecting others with their belief. Apparently we are anti-Semites now. Strangely enough the other Israelis had a lot to say about them, they see them as spongers, by the fact they never join the army, don't work, don't pay taxes. Interesting .

On the other hand it, some peoples interpretation and preaching of ISLAM is spreading like a cancer and needs to be cut out. Its like a christian examining the old testament and deciding to bring hellfire to all those who might have crossed him once. To be fair the Muslim Council of Britain do say a lot against it despite what the media might portray.

At some point people need to let go of history, Do we blame the Germans for Hitler, No of course not

... Mind you we should never forget that no-one can now sport that fetching mustache look, nor the fact that he soured a perfectly fine name for many people, the BASTARD!


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## GCMAX (Dec 31, 2013)

Palestine has joined the Hague (International Criminal Courts) and Israel is to appear as a defendant up on war crimes. Still waiting for proceedings to start.

ICC prosecutor rejects Israelâ??s fears of bias in war crimes investigation â?? RT News


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## chickenjunkie (Jan 6, 2015)

Israel has clearly violated, among other things, the Geneva convention's prohibition on moving one's civilian population into occupied territory. Then there are numerous instances of assassination and terror bombings e.g. in Egypt in 1955


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## robbo9 (Mar 24, 2012)

JohhnyC said:


> I have been in Israel a few times and had these conversations. Actually some Israelis do f#ck me off talking about their holy land and forefathers constantly like they have some God given right to do what they want. Heard it more than once. The easy jet flight was a nightmare. There are no allocated seating so I had all these Hasidic jews passengers moving everyone around because a guy can't sit next to their wife. We refused and they complained to the airline staff. They insisted we move which annoyed my missus. She told one of them to go and get a BA flight the cheap gits and stop affecting others with their belief. Apparently we are anti-Semites now. Strangely enough the other Israelis had a lot to say about them, they see them as spongers, by the fact they never join the army, don't work, don't pay taxes. Interesting .
> 
> On the other hand it, some peoples interpretation and preaching of ISLAM is spreading like a cancer and needs to be cut out. Its like a christian examining the old testament and deciding to bring hellfire to all those who might have crossed him once. To be fair the Muslim Council of Britain do say a lot against it despite what the media might portray.
> 
> ...


I have to agree with you on these certain ultra religious Jews...they give the other Jews a bad name and the easyjet/jet2 flights to israel are horrible. I feel bad for the people that work on these flights


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