# Cant bloody decide - bulk or cut?! ARGH.



## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

Right this is pissing me off now.

I cant bloody decide what to do. Basically at the minute ive tried cutting out a bit of carbs to try loose a bit of weight but its not really happening as i dont have the time or money to get down a proper strict diet i just have to eat what i can (usually reasonable clean though).

So at the minute im neither growing nor cutting really. Sick and tired of my stubborn small arms! i want them bigger! But i also want better abs! Not sure wether to encorporate cardio into my routine and proper go for it to lose some weight, but then i dont want to lose any size at all! :cursing:

Posting this in natty because i dont want to take any AAS to help with this. Any advice? Just started on a tub of 250g creatine maybe i should really hammer it for these 4-5 weeks that im on the creatine try squeeze as much size on as i can, then cut? I dunno. :confused1:

Any advice for my stubborn biceps? Tried so much to get them to budge. FST-7 worked a bit, but then gains slowed down and ive bodged my forearm up which means i cant use bar bells now so im stuck with dumbbells or bloody resistance bands!

Any help much appreciated boys


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

Personally I would gain muscle whilst losing fat.

Bulking and cutting is just an excuse for getting fat or losing muscle.


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

1Tonne said:


> Personally I would gain muscle whilst losing fat.
> 
> Bulking and cutting is just an excuse for getting fat or losing muscle.


Im a massive hard gainer. And i dont mean massive as in lots of mass. I mean its very hard for me to gain.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

whats your weight buddy ?


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

uhan said:


> whats your weight buddy ?


Im 6' 1 at roughly 80kg mate


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## Gee-bol (Jul 2, 2009)

surely if your that much of a hardgainer you shouldnt need to do a cut you shouldnt naturally be lean?


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

The majority of people are hardgainers. Or in truth natural gainers. People who gain easily are lucky and/or have everything spot on in regards to training needs.

Everyone has a point of gaining muscle and losing fat. You just need to find the right amount of calories that enable minimal weight gain. Add in some Cardio at low intensity to strip some fat. And eat your meals at the right times to best enable nutrient uptake by muscles and reduce the likelihood of excess being stored.

Too many people throw hard gainer around lime it's a curse. Realistically most people are just gaining at the normal average Joe rate.they then compare themselves to someone with more muscle (be it aas or not as we all know it still takes a lot of work) and call themselves hard gainers. Just isn't the case.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Barker said:


> Im 6' 1 at roughly 80kg mate


bulk without question , whats your upper arm measure 12 inches ?


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## Rekless (May 5, 2009)

pics would help.

Depends what your body compisition looks like now really.


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

My advice, from experience is to fight the urge to cut.

I have only been bodybuiding just over two years now and have never competed but have cut 4 times. In my opinion this has always been a waste of time i could have spent growing! i will no only ever cut if its for a competition, just eat well when bulking, do cardio to help stay lean, and pile some muscle mass on.


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

uhan said:


> bulk without question , whats your upper arm measure 12 inches ?


Disagree fully. Let's say he's carrying some fat as abs aren't already showing. Going on bulk and eating more calories than is required will help growth, but in advertently add fat levels. It's a no brainer. Slaughter yourself in the gym to gain 10lbs or muscle in a year, only to do a harsh cut to get the abs out and end up losing it through muscle loss.

You are natty. Youcant cut weight without losing muscle. You can however lose fat whilst building muscle. You just need to eat right and at the right times...and give it time. Most people can't accept this takes months not weeks.

And you can't expect the results an assisted bber would get doing the bulk cut protocol.


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

My advice is to eat and train consistantly.

Much better approach than cutting and bulking imo


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

1Tonne said:


> Disagree fully. Let's say he's carrying some fat as abs aren't already showing. Going on bulk and eating more calories than is required will help growth, but in advertently add fat levels. It's a no brainer. Slaughter yourself in the gym to gain 10lbs or muscle in a year, only to do a harsh cut to get the abs out and end up losing it through muscle loss.
> 
> You are natty. Youcant cut weight without losing muscle. You can however lose fat whilst building muscle. You just need to eat right and at the right times...and give it time. Most people can't accept this takes months not weeks.
> 
> And you can't expect the results an assisted bber would get doing the bulk cut protocol.


your suggesting he cuts ?? @ 80kg body weight but wants bigger arms too lol id bet he wants to be bigger all over so bulk unless for a competition .

btw where did i say dirty bulk or non clean bulk or in fact clean bulk ....i didnt .


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

MarkFranco said:


> My advice is to eat and train consistantly.
> 
> Much better approach than cutting and bulking imo


Totally agree. Eventually you will find what it takes to lean out whilst get stronger and fitter.


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

If I was trying to encourage growth from stubborn arms I wouldn't do any direct arm work. Stick to bench, dips, and rows, hack at a tree stump with a two handed axe and carry paving stones up and down your garden path. 2 inch growth in 8-12 months no bother.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Mingster said:


> If I was trying to encourage growth from stubborn arms I wouldn't do any direct arm work. Stick to bench, dips, and rows, hack at a tree stump with a two handed axe and carry paving stones up and down your garden path. 2 inch growth in 8-12 months no bother.


this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ may sound a little odd but it does work .

also the bigger the delts the bigger the arm can grow .


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## bowen86 (Mar 17, 2008)

pics would be useful.


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

uhan said:


> your suggesting he cuts ?? @ 80kg body weight but wants bigger arms too lol id bet he wants to be bigger all over so bulk unless for a competition .
> 
> btw where did i say dirty bulk or non clean bulk or in fact clean bulk ....i didnt .


If you actually read both of my posts, you would realise I said neither bulk nor cut. There's no such thing as a dirty bulk or clean bulk or lean bulk or any of that bro science that gets repeated day in and day out. So what, the guys 80kg. Doesnt mean he should eat tonnes in an attempt to gain muscle. If this were the case we wouldn't ever have fat people. Everyone would just walk around bench as fook.

You cannot force feed growth. You can eat to little and lose weight both fat and muscle. You can eat too much and gain muscle and inadvertently fat. Or youcan eat the right amount, train intensely, do some Cardio and lose fat whilst gaining muscle.

If you wish to believe dogmatic bodybuilding jargon that says you can only do it "this way" then that is your choice.


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## NickBirch (Jun 5, 2010)

1Tonne said:


> Disagree fully. Let's say he's carrying some fat as abs aren't already showing. Going on bulk and eating more calories than is required will help growth, but in advertently add fat levels. It's a no brainer. Slaughter yourself in the gym to gain 10lbs or muscle in a year, only to do a harsh cut to get the abs out and end up losing it through muscle loss.
> 
> You are natty. Youcant cut weight without losing muscle. You can however lose fat whilst building muscle. You just need to eat right and at the right times...and give it time. Most people can't accept this takes months not weeks.
> 
> And you can't expect the results an assisted bber would get doing the bulk cut protocol.


Nailed it really, asTonne mentioned bbing naturally youll find muscle gain and bodyfat tend to go hand in hand if your eating and training right increasing calories slightly might yield better results but its all about learning your own body theres no real call for a bulk/cut cycle unless you compete, theres nothing to stop you adding extra calories for 4-8 weeks and then dropping to maintenance levels for 4-8 weeks etc play around and see what happens dont go extreme in terms of adding 3k calories for 12 weeks so bulk and then 12 weeks of a huge defecit you just dont need to do this.(exageration on numbers i know)


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

1Tonne said:


> If you actually read both of my posts, you would realise I said neither bulk nor cut. There's no such thing as a dirty bulk or clean bulk or lean bulk or any of that bro science that gets repeated day in and day out. So what, the guys 80kg. Doesnt mean he should eat tonnes in an attempt to gain muscle. If this were the case we wouldn't ever have fat people. Everyone would just walk around bench as fook.
> 
> You cannot force feed growth. You can eat to little and lose weight both fat and muscle. You can eat too much and gain muscle and inadvertently fat. Or youcan eat the right amount, train intensely, do some Cardio and lose fat whilst gaining muscle.
> 
> If you wish to believe dogmatic bodybuilding jargon that says you can only do it "this way" then that is your choice.


i read both your posts and i said bulk however i did not say as you did gain muscle while losing fat that was not in question , if it was i would have agreed with you to gain muscle whilst losing fat however you simply over complicated things . the question was .....bulk or cut ........BULK .


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## Matt 1 (May 8, 2010)

Bulkcut.


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## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

dont know why people think that they must either bulk or cut. why not just grow whilst staying relatively lean:confused1:

and i dont really believe it when people say they are hardgainers. people who are "hardgainers" just dont know how their body best responds yet...which isnt a bad thing as the majority of this iron game is about learning your own body

i think there is a fine line between being a hardgainer and not having the genetics of perhaps ronnie coleman

just stick at it mate. tweak your own diet and training up. only you can discover what works best for you


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

uhan said:


> i read both your posts and i said bulk however i did not say as you did gain muscle while losing fat that was not in question , if it was i would have agreed with you to gain muscle whilst losing fat however you simply over complicated things . the question was .....bulk or cut ........BULK .


This is why people make the same mistakes month aftermonth cos no one bothers to tell em like it is.

Is simple to sit there and say "he asked for bulk or cut so I chose bulk" even tho it's essentially completely wrong. Feel free to argue with me as much as you want, it makes no difference.

To the op, don't listento those spouting the se old bber dogma youread in the majority of posts.

Bulking and cutting is an awful way for natural bbers to attempt a food physique.

Lose fat and gain muscle is the right approach.


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

uhan said:


> bulk without question , whats your upper arm measure 12 inches ?


14 inches flexed mate, but personally i think theyre small in comparison to the rest of me, after all the longer your limbs are the more muscle you need on them to make them look muscular.

Im really dont know my ar5e from my elbow with my training atm. Its all over the bloody place. Im just about managing to cut out the majority of sweets/chocolate etc. except he odd one here and there. Ive just had a bowl of tuna mayo, is this bad or good? i dint even know... some would say maybe i should've made it into a sandwich to get some carbs in? But ive been trying to drop a few carbs to drop body fat, but its not bloody dropping! Started training abs twice a week, well see how that goes cant see it doing much though.

Just sick and tired of looking and feeling small and like im not growing. I find it really hard to eat loads as i still live at home, i have no income and im at college in the day time. Im trying pretty hard and just dont seem to be getting and rewards. Then i see people growing like theres no tomorrow and they probably couldnt tell me what a carbohydrate or lattimus dorsi is.

EDIT: Pics later if i remember


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

Hsmann, you just copied me  jokes. Spot on info.

And no I won't edit my mistakes, will merely jump on my iPhone...


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

1Tonne said:


> This is why people make the same mistakes month aftermonth cos no one bothers to tell em like it is.
> 
> Is simple to sit there and say "he asked for bulk or cut so I chose bulk" even tho it's essentially completely wrong. Feel free to argue with me as much as you want, it makes no difference.
> 
> ...


lol i aint arguing im agreeing but your assuming he`s a bodybuilder . as for being simple to sit here and say "he asked for bulk or cut so I chose bulk" thats the answer to the question , however the recommended approach would be to say ....fix the diet so you are gaining muscle whilst losing fat .


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## hsmann87 (Jun 22, 2010)

1Tonne said:


> *Hsmann, you just copied me *  * jokes. Spot on info.*
> 
> And no I won't edit my mistakes, will merely jump on my iPhone...


lol i know but i only read your post(s) after i wrote mine!

great minds bruvva. great minds. although i fvckign hope that aint you in your avvi :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

uhan said:


> lol i aint arguing im agreeing but your assuming he`s a bodybuilder . as for being simple to sit here and say "he asked for bulk or cut so I chose bulk" thats the answer to the question , however the recommended approach would be to say ....fix the diet so you are gaining muscle whilst losing fat .


Hrs on a bodybuilding forum...talking about bulking or cutting...wanting bigger arms. Pretty sure that's building ones body. When trying to help someone with their goals, sometimes there more to it than simply answering the question at face value. Same with most things in life come to think about it.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Barker said:


> 14 inches flexed mate, but personally i think theyre small in comparison to the rest of me, after all the longer your limbs are the more muscle you need on them to make them look muscular.
> 
> Im really dont know my **** from my elbow with my training atm. Its all over the bloody place. Im just about managing to cut out the majority of sweets/chocolate etc. except he odd one here and there. Ive just had a bowl of tuna mayo, is this bad or good? i dint even know... some would say maybe i should've made it into a sandwich to get some carbs in? But ive been trying to drop a few carbs to drop body fat, but its not bloody dropping! Started training abs twice a week, well see how that goes cant see it doing much though.
> 
> Just sick and tired of looking and feeling small and like im not growing. I find it really hard to eat loads as i still live at home, i have no income and im at college in the day time. Im trying pretty hard and just dont seem to be getting and rewards. Then i see people growing like theres no tomorrow and they probably couldnt tell me what a carbohydrate or lattimus dorsi is.


honestly m8 ive been there best 2 bits of advice anybody could ever give you is A/ fix your diet workout what nutrients your body needs to grow (not gaining to much fat) , B fix your training read books listen to advice on routines try it see what works .


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

hsmann87 said:


> lol i know but i only read your post(s) after i wrote mine!
> 
> great minds bruvva. great minds. although i fvckign hope that aint you in your avvi :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


What If it is? Personally I think I'm rocking the mangina 

Ps you look better than me so I still hate you. Saw your journal pal, looking spot on. Not on here much now as spend most my time on tm.

Sorry for thread hijack op.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

1Tonne said:


> Hrs on a bodybuilding forum...talking about bulking or cutting...wanting bigger arms. Pretty sure that's building ones body. When trying to help someone with their goals, sometimes there more to it than simply answering the question at face value. Same with most things in life come to think about it.


its not a bodybuilding forum though its a muscle forum lol guess i shouldn't be here then as im not a bodybuilder .


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

uhan said:


> its not a bodybuilding forum though its a muscle forum lol guess i shouldn't be here then as im not a bodybuilder .


Ok mate. Keep dishing out the well thought through ideas. Hopefully the op will figure out what it takes.

I'm just going to leave this here..

UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum

Welcome to the UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum.

Personally I think you should be here. You have more to learn, that's for sure.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

1Tonne said:


> Ok mate. Keep dishing out the well thought through ideas. Hopefully the op will figure out what it takes.


why not help the guy with his diet ?


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum

Welcome to the UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum.

Just again in case you missed it.

And because he hasn't posted a diet for us to critique. No one can advise a diet without knowing a lot more info. Better the op does more readin, works out a diet and a training programme. Then posts it for critique.

Realistically, he'll learn more from trying and adapting rather than listening to anyone else since we all respond differently when it comes to diet and training. One idea or protocol doesn't fit all.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

1Tonne said:


> UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum
> 
> Welcome to the UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum.
> 
> ...


i`ll let you have the bodybuilding forum one cant say ive ever seen that  :thumbup1:


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

Now now ladies.

I know my diet needs improving. I highly doubt i will be able to get my diet spot on for a long time as i dont have the money or time, i just have to do what i can.

I do want to compete naturally one day, just to throw that out there, but i also want to look good for the summer haha (i.e visible abs when relaxed.)

Just taken a load of pictures for you to abuse ill upload them in a bit when ive edited my gay tensing face out.


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## swampy9785 (Sep 27, 2008)

Barker said:


> Now now ladies.
> 
> I know my diet needs improving. I highly doubt i will be able to get my diet spot on for a long time as i dont have the money or time, i just have to do what i can.


No offence, but what is the purpose of asking for help with your diet etc if you wouldnt be able to stick to it anyway?? I dont think it would matter if you were bulking or cutting if it wont be spot on?


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

swampy9785 said:


> No offence, but what is the purpose of asking for help with your diet etc if you wouldnt be able to stick to it anyway?? I dont think it would matter if you were bulking or cutting if it wont be spot on?


Oh sorry didn't realise i was asking for advice on my diet, my bad.

You make it sound as if i can help the fact that its not spot on. If my diet was spot on other things would suffer, such as sleeping as id be up till stupid o'clock cooking, and money, i have bugger all.

But just so y'all know this is what my diet today is like.

MP whey shake with water

3 chocolate weetabix with milk

-

1 tin tuna with mayo

-

Chicken+bacon pasta bake (yes its a microwave meal but i like them for the 44g protein and convinence)

-

then ill work out, probs have a banana 30 mins before

-

PWO shake

-

chicken fillet, rice and peas later

-

then probs have another helping of chicken rice and peas if i have time

-

pre bed shake ill be using the nutrisport stuff ive got in that has the casein in it, also throw in 2 full eggs for the little bit of fat.


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

Barker said:


> Oh sorry didn't realise i was asking for advice on my diet, my bad.
> 
> You make it sound as if i can help the fact that its not spot on. If my diet was spot on other things would suffer, such as sleeping as id be up till stupid o'clock cooking, and money, i have bugger all.
> 
> ...


This is useless without measurements mate, is it 100g chicken or 250? Is it 1 scoop of whey or 3? Whats pwo shake......


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

oats with milk put a small half serving of whey in try and have 40 g of protein

-

1 tin tuna with mayo add rice or pasta

-

Chicken+bacon pasta bake (yes its a microwave meal but i like them for the 44g protein and convinence)

-

then ill work out, probs have a banana 30 mins before + MP whey shake with milk

-

PWO shake

-

chicken fillet, rice and peas later

-

then probs have another helping of chicken rice and peas if i have time

-

pre bed shake ill be using the nutrisport stuff ive got in that has the casein in it, also throw in 4 full eggs for the little bit of fat

ive changed it a little bit trying to adjust to your budget of very little also drink more milk if possible .

try and have 100g chicken minimum 200g would be great .


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

kieren1234 said:


> This is useless without measurements mate, is it 100g chicken or 250? Is it 1 scoop of whey or 3? Whats pwo shake......


Well i dont exactly measure my chicken out, i just have what looks a 'decent amount'. But id say its always between 200-300g, probably more towards 300g. If i do get some more chicken fillet im before bed it will only be around 100-150g thats if ive cooked a bit too much and saved it.

Scoops of MP protein is 1.5 of the MP scoop. I think its the small MP scoop, but it really doesnt look that small. PWO shake is just whey in water. Bed time shake i use milk.


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

uhan said:


> oats with milk put a small half serving of whey in try and have 40 g of protein
> 
> -
> 
> ...


Cannot stand oats mate, although i may give them another go for a bit. Also i cant be taking in that much whey, just dont have the money for it. Also dont want to be overloading on milk as i suffer from acne and aparently staying away from milk can help. Not going to steer clear but obviously dont want to be having loads.


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## swampy9785 (Sep 27, 2008)

Barker said:


> Oh sorry didn't realise i was asking for advice on my diet, my bad.
> 
> You make it sound as if i can help the fact that its not spot on. If my diet was spot on other things would suffer, such as sleeping as id be up till stupid o'clock cooking, and money, i have bugger all.


Its called planning...No one is up all night making food. How do you think everyone else sticks to a strict plan. Even being short of money, there are threads on this site of people in similar situations. Just have to plan and budget correctly

'Oh sorry didn't realise i was asking for advice on my diet, my bad' - i dont even really know what to say about this


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

Barker said:


> Well i dont exactly measure my chicken out, i just have what looks a 'decent amount'. But id say its always between 200-300g, probably more towards 300g. If i do get some more chicken fillet im before bed it will only be around 100-150g thats if ive cooked a bit too much and saved it.
> 
> Scoops of MP protein is 1.5 of the MP scoop. I think its the small MP scoop, but it really doesnt look that small. PWO shake is just whey in water. Bed time shake i use milk.


If you dont ever measure food, how will you ever know what to modify in the diet to suit your needs?? I may be being a bit too detailed here but its what i do so i know if i ammend any measurements, how it effect my gains etc.


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

try and source an alternative for the extra protein maybe extra chicken breast ? i used to have porridge now i just eat it as oats but you could add some kind of sauce into it maybe ?

as for milk i know what your saying i went to the docs and got a shed load of accutane been on it nearly a year best thing i did was see a decent doc 

just have to poke around the diet section see what can be done on a shoe string budget .


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Lean bulk imo, you can gain size while dropping a little bf with cardio, but diet is most important


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## Fullhouse (Mar 31, 2010)

1Tonne said:


> Personally I would gain muscle whilst losing fat.
> 
> Bulking and cutting is just an excuse for getting fat or losing muscle.


Impossible unless ur a newbie you can't do both


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## exalta (Jul 23, 2009)

If you're already 15% bf or above, cut.

http://www.ironmagazine.com/article123.html

Otherwise, train and eat to add lean muscle and minimize fat. For me, even calling it 'bulking' puts you in the wrong frame of mind, and just invokes images of fat guys going to pizza hut for their 'PWO meal'.


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

Fullhouse said:


> Impossible unless ur a newbie you can't do both


I advise you continue to research more. If you wish to believe advanced trainers cannot grow and stay lean whilst keeping low body fat percentages then you are sadly mistaken.


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## Fullhouse (Mar 31, 2010)

1Tonne said:


> I advise you continue to research more. If you wish to believe advanced trainers cannot grow and stay lean whilst keeping low body fat percentages then you are sadly mistaken.


There is a difference between lean gains and gaining muscle and losing fat.


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

Fullhouse said:


> There is a difference between lean gains and gaining muscle and losing fat.


Let's for example say we have a large bber. Always been fat, but has trained for 8yrs. Carries a good amount of muscle. He can still gain and lose fat. Would you call him a newbie?

But yes, there is a difference between gaining whilst staying lean and gaining whilst losing fat. Afterall, we all have some sort of fat level. Impossible to lose it all.

You are right in one aspect but incorrect on another. And I accept my answer wasn't directly comparable to your statement. Altho I still think it's was very generalised. Your statement implies a newbie is anyone without sub 10% body fat, which just isn't the case. So again, newbie or not, anyone carrying excess bf can lose fat whilst gaining muscle. Just has to be done slow enough.

And Congrats on your like. Think I upset uhan earlier, must be a vendetta


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## pipebomb (Oct 3, 2009)

He could try something like a rapid adaptation technique like i posted on another thread, the logic seems decent im about to try it myself shortly

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/losing-weight/132372-loosing-fat-while-gaining.html#post2220137


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

1Tonne said:


> Let's for example say we have a large bber. Always been fat, but has trained for 8yrs. Carries a good amount of muscle. He can still gain and lose fat. Would you call him a newbie?
> 
> But yes, there is a difference between gaining whilst staying lean and gaining whilst losing fat. Afterall, we all have some sort of fat level. Impossible to lose it all.
> 
> ...


it`ll take more than you to upset me brother unless i get on the tren lol

i think its the purple kinda close to red , or maybe its just you


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

Right so ive got some pictures.

The ones where im 'posing' had pretty decent lighting, so i may look leaner than i actually am, so i took some relaxed ones in different lighting so hopefully you can get a better idea.

Excuse the bad poses haha



























































































Not sure why the last two have rotated themselves :confused1:

Thought id never say this but any guesses at bf%?


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

looks like you just need to build your ab`s up a bit more with weighted crunches and stuff .


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## pipebomb (Oct 3, 2009)

About 11% maybe 12 hard to say really


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

Forget bf, doesn't matter.

Personally would settle on foods I enjoy eating and can stick to. Calf the calories and track your progress. You know your eating enough when your comfortably gaining 1-2pbs a month. Would keep Cardio in to reduce the amount of fat you'd put on but at the levels you are it wouldn't take much. 2-3 30min sessions a week would prob be enough. But the amount of food you settle on will likely dictate that.


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## pipebomb (Oct 3, 2009)

I wouldn't say forget bf its a good way to keep track of things.


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

pipebomb said:


> I wouldn't say forget bf its a good way to keep track of things.


Aye I can be a useful way of measuring growth. But realistically, posting pics won't give a realistic answer. Too many variables. Calipers or body pod will be needed.

Realistiy, mirror says it all. Jiggle about, if it wobbles, it's fat. If you start wobbling more, cut back on the cals. If less, keep going to happily lean then slowly up cals and watch for changes.


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## Fullhouse (Mar 31, 2010)

1Tonne said:


> Let's for example say we have a large bber. Always been fat, but has trained for 8yrs. Carries a good amount of muscle. He can still gain and lose fat. Would you call him a newbie?
> 
> But yes, there is a difference between gaining whilst staying lean and gaining whilst losing fat. Afterall, we all have some sort of fat level. Impossible to lose it all.
> 
> ...


Yes I agree in theory done slowly with alot of cardio and the right diet, personally I like most wouldn't be happy to do this can take years to see little change and most would give up before they reach their target. This is the reason that most bbers use phased cycles of bulk and cut (12 weeks at a time as more than that most people lose interest). BTW I know newbie sub 10% like my bro, thinks he's a hard-gainer but just doesn't eat and does kick boxing, his's about 6% all year round. Oh and one other thing if your believe that you can gain muscle and lose bf at the same time then why does your status say 'Dieting....ugh' do you not practice what you preach! Well that's my penny's worth have a nice day fella


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## pipebomb (Oct 3, 2009)

1Tonne said:


> Too many variables Calipers or body pod will be needed.


Thats what i meant i should have explained myself better. callipers will do the trick.


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## 1Tonne (Jun 6, 2010)

Havenet changed it since attempting a Keto diet around 6 months ago. How do you know it takes years? I can show you atleast 8 journals of members I know that are don't it over approximately 5months.

But no, I tried it as I hate commenting on something I haven't personally attempted. Altho i shed some weight, it was by far a good way of going about it for me personally. Altho I learnt a lot from it which has carried over to my current lifestyle.

The reason most bbers use the styles of bulk and cut is because it's what a lot of aas bbers do. The aas reduces the amount of muscle mass lost. Often gettin extremely good results. Then everyone decides that's best for them, whether on aaa or not. Add in confusion about diets and other factors and boom, another guy posting a thread about help for bulking and cutting cos it didnt work for them.

I agree with what you say, a lot do it. Doesn't mean it's the best, healthiest or even most rewarding way to go about it.

But hey , whatever floats your boat.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

I have to agree with fullhouse I'm afraid. I don't believe you can do both at the same time effectively, it would be such a slow process it wouldn't be worth it IMO. Lookin at the OPs pics he could be ripped in 5 weeks or so, he could then bulk while stayin fairly lean(not the same as losing fat while gaining muscle). Personally if I was him I'd just bulk now slowly maybe .5 to 1 lb a week and not worry about cutting til he's much bigger.

I think the opposite is true AAS users could do both much more effectively, for Natties IMHO its one or the other.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

1Tonne said:


> Personally I would gain muscle whilst losing fat.
> 
> Bulking and cutting is just an excuse for getting fat or losing muscle.


Mate I'm sorry but this is wrong IMO, almost every bodybuilder natty or assisted cuts and plenty do it with very little muscle loss if any,

and bulking as far as I'm concerned means putting on muscle, just because some people abuse this and eat whatever and get fat doesn't mean

people shouldn't bulk properly anymore. Trying to build muscle while losing fat is a way of getting nowhere IMO. I believe if you do one or the other

you'll see better results.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

To the OP what is your long term goal? How big do you want to get eventually?


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

pipebomb said:


> Thats what i meant i should have explained myself better. callipers will do the trick.


Looking in a mirror would be far better imo, but people like to complicate things and have such a hard on for bf%

Maybe if the average lifter just trained rather than bulked or cutted they would get some where


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

Nice clean diet just slightly over your maintenance needs, 20-30 mins cardio 4 times per week (after training if needs be)

JMO after seeing your pics, because of the long limbs, the arms and overall bodyweight are going to have to rise a fair bit until they look big IMO.

Don't be tempted to eat 5hit, nice and simple, grow nice and slow, and do it by keeping slop off at the same time.


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

36-26 said:


> To the OP what is your long term goal? How big do you want to get eventually?


Want to compete naturally one day


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## Jim78 (Aug 20, 2010)

Barker said:


> Want to compete naturally one day


well no offence but better give up crying over the hardgainer tag and man up about it, ifyour not growing, you arn't eating enough, end of story.

Post up a genuine diet, and be brutally honest.


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## ashers (May 8, 2010)

just had a read through and you have a good base. start the creatine, eat around maintenance and train hard.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

MarkFranco said:


> Looking in a mirror would be far better imo, but people like to complicate things and have such a hard on for bf%
> 
> Maybe if the average lifter just trained rather than bulked or cutted they would get some where


lol, couldn't agree more. Most beginners (read: less than 3 years training experience) just need to forget the BS about bulks and cuts and learn to train. Forget fancy BS diets just eat well.

Train hard, eat well, look better. Get strong, stay fast and enjoy it too.


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