# Push/Pull/Legs - twice a week?



## Dan TT (May 9, 2012)

Has anyone tried a push / pull / legs routine where it works at 3 on 1 off so you can hit each part twice a week?

Looking to use it as a way to increase my frequency. Worried about recovery though.

looked at for example:

1st push: bench, pec deck, shoulder press, side raises, rope, tri pushdown

But that's like 21 sets and seems a bit much?

I usually just train like: back/chest/legs off shoulders/arms/abs&legs off repeat


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## Dan TT (May 9, 2012)

bump


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## geordie_paul (Aug 12, 2007)

Dan TT said:


> Has anyone tried a push / pull / legs routine where it works at 3 on 1 off so you can hit each part twice a week?
> 
> Looking to use it as a way to increase my frequency. Worried about recovery though.
> 
> ...


This is how I have changed my training to recently, it is important to reduce volume if increasing the frequency as you want to be recovered before hitting the body part again, a push sesh for me would probably be about 10 working sets to failure plus multiple warm ups


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Once a week will work just fine. If you're doing it twice a week then I'd strongly suggest lowering the volume to 1-2 exercises per muscle in each workout, but if you're gonna go that route you might as well just go on an upper/lower split mate.


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## Dan TT (May 9, 2012)

geordie_paul said:


> This is how I have changed my training to recently, it is important to reduce volume if increasing the frequency as you want to be recovered before hitting the body part again, a push sesh for me would probably be about 10 working sets to failure plus multiple warm ups


Tried my first session of it today at did push, session was:

shoulder press 1 warm up 2 working

side raise 1 / 2

bench 1 / 2

pec deck 1 / 2

rope 1 / 2

tri pushdown 1 /2

So I did 10 working sets. Enjoyed it to be honest and was different


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## elliot438 (Mar 9, 2013)

It's a good split, i've done it before but found it wasn't really for me. Always enjoyed a bit more volume in my training and more than 1 day of rest per week.


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## Dan TT (May 9, 2012)

I said:


> Once a week will work just fine. If you're doing it twice a week then I'd strongly suggest lowering the volume to 1-2 exercises per muscle in each workout' date=' but if you're gonna go that route you might as well just go on an upper/lower split mate.[/quote']
> 
> What would an upper/lower split look like? Never looked into it...


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## biggestdog2007 (Apr 7, 2010)

PPL rest is a great split, hitting everything twice a week is optimal imo. Once is too infrequent.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Dan TT said:


> What would an upper/lower split look like? Never looked into it...


Here's a good example of the split and exercise selection Power Hypertrophy Upper Lower (P.H.U.L.) Workout | Muscle & Strength


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Huge fan of PPL! Do it.

I've posted great big paragraphs about PPL and recovery on the forums before so I won't write out a whole essay again but definitely give it a shot. Frequency is King and your recovery will be perfectly fine as long as the program is good (obviously along with your diet, sleep etc).

You should see a lot of progress with the higher frequency and your body will adapt to recover quicker also.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

PPLx2 is a great programme. The trouble is people try to fit it into a 7 day programme, which imo doesn't work.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> PPLx2 is a great programme. The trouble is people try to fit it into a 7 day programme, which imo doesn't work.


How do you mean into a 7 day program?


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> How do you mean into a 7 day program?


They try to work PPLx2 into a standard 7 day week. I don't understand why folks concentrate on the 7 day week so much.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

Dan TT said:


> Has anyone tried a push / pull / legs routine where it works at 3 on 1 off so you can hit each part twice a week?
> 
> Looking to use it as a way to increase my frequency. Worried about recovery though.
> 
> ...


I'm training this way - 6 days a week, PPL, each bodypart twice a week. Power once a week (4 sets), Volume once a week (8-12 sets)

Only train like this on-cycle, and after 8 weeks or so I'm starting to feel a bit burned out. Off cycle I drop the volume down quite a bit.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> They try to work PPLx2 into a standard 7 day week. I don't understand why folks concentrate on the 7 day week so much.


I'm totally confused; PPL does fit into 7 days though... in fact, it fits perfectly into 7 days (with one days rest, whether it's 3 on 1 off - or - 6 on 1 off)...


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> I'm totally confused; PPL does fit into 7 days though... in fact, it fits perfectly into 7 days (with one days rest, whether it's 3 on 1 off - or - 6 on 1 off)...


It depends on how many rest days you take. Too many people try to fit pplx2 into a 7 day split. You don't have to use a 7 day split to benefit from it.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> It depends on how many rest days you take. Too many people try to fit pplx2 into a 7 day split. You don't have to use a 7 day split to benefit from it.


Ah I see!

The reason most people try to fit it into 7 days is to train with increased frequency to train each muscle group twice per week... the '7 day' week is just a good way to gauge/measure your frequency.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> Ah I see!
> 
> The reason most people try to fit it into 7 days is to train with increased frequency to train each muscle group twice per week... the '7 day' week is just a good way to gauge/measure your frequency.


I believe the "7 day" frequency is a bit of a myth tbh. PPLx2 hyper and strength will get results.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> I believe the "7 day" frequency is a bit of a myth tbh. PPLx2 hyper and strength will get results.


... but it's got nothing to do with any "7 day myth" (not even sure what myth that is...) - it has everything to do with muscle protein synthesis and the fact that at MOST it is only elevated for 48 hours max (but most often not even that) and essentially about making far better and more efficient use of your time to elicit more progress.

I do agree with you that people who don't know any better will believe that you should only train a muscle group 'once per week' but that's the polar opposite to someone using PPL to increase their frequency within a 7 day period.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> But it's got nothing to do with any "7 day myth" (not even sure what myth that is...) - it has everything to do with muscle protein synthesis and the fact that at MOST it is only elevated for 48 hours max (but most often not even that) and essentially about making far better and more efficient use of your time to elicit more progress.


The 7 day myth is that you have to fit all your training within 7 days "very old skool I admit". I love training PPLx2 as it hits the muscles twice every 10 days.


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## RowRow (Nov 17, 2011)

Dan TT said:


> Has anyone tried a push / pull / legs routine where it works at 3 on 1 off so you can hit each part twice a week?
> 
> Looking to use it as a way to increase my frequency. Worried about recovery though.
> 
> ...


I currently train pull, push legs, repeat, off.

Only do between 6 and 12 working sets a session


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> The 7 day myth is that you have to fit all your training within 7 days "very old skool I admit". I love training PPLx2 as it hits the muscles twice every 10 days.


I do see what you're saying on some level, and it's better than twice every 14 days for instance but it doesn't matter what number of days you use as the "measurement" of frequency; at the end of the day, whether you say you train every muscle group 2 x per 7 days or 2 x per 4 days, you instantly know which is a higher frequency when corresponding to higher levels of MPS.

It's just a way to compare, using a standard "week" as something that the general population universally use and understand. Your 2 x 10 day PPL is not going to be as effective as 2 x 7 week... not that it matters (whatever works for you is perfectly fine) but it's just a way to recognise the rate of frequency.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> I do see what you're saying on some level, and it's better than twice every 14 days for instance but it doesn't matter what number of days you use as the "measurement" of frequency; at the end of the day, whether you say you train every muscle group 2 x per 7 days or 2 x per 4 days, you instantly know which is a higher frequency when corresponding to higher levels of MPS.
> 
> It's just a way to compare, using a standard "week" as something that the general population universally use and understand.* Your 2 x 10 day PPL is not going to be as effective as 2 x 7 week... not that it matters (whatever works for you is perfectly fine) but it's just a way to recognise the rate of frequency.*


*
*

*
*

Would you care to explain the "bold and underlined" parts?


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

PS I never said that those programmes worked.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> Would you care to explain the "bold and underlined" parts?


Yep sure; when you train at a higher frequency, this will benefit you in many ways; greater frequency of elevated muscle protein synthesis (more growth in shorter space of time) but also much better progress in terms of neuromuscular adaptation, strength, technique and motor patterns. Lastly, you also benefit from increased rate of recovery due to the repeated bout effect.

So essentially if one person is going to be training every muscle group twice per 7 days, they will be getting greater benefits from the more frequent levels of training than another person doing the same frequency over 10 days.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> PS I never said that those programmes worked.


That's okay I didn't think so - and also I'm not saying your method isn't good of course, but I'm just trying to explain the theory/concept and science behind the measure of frequency etc.. 

At the end of the day it's the consistency that's important and everyone has their preferences... BUT just in the context of utilising more optimal methods, this is how I see it.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> Yep sure; when you train at a higher frequency, this will benefit you in many ways; greater frequency of elevated muscle protein synthesis (more growth in shorter space of time) but also much better progress in terms of neuromuscular adaptation, strength, technique and motor patterns. Lastly, you also benefit from increased rate of recovery due to the repeated bout effect.
> 
> So essentially if one person is going to be training every muscle group twice per 7 days, they will be getting greater benefits from the more frequent levels of training than another person doing the same frequency over 10 days.


That depends on the intensity surely?


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> That depends on the intensity surely?


Nope...

Even if you train ALL OUT, there is no way your MPS will be elevated any longer than 48 hrs, and as for the other benefits (neuromuscular and repeated bout effect), those have nothing to do with intensity but solely frequency alone.

Also, there is only so much you can activate and recruit within a workout. Once you reach a certain level of intensity, you cannot force any more yield in results.

If you had two people and one was training at a good intensity but 2 x more frequent than another person who trains SUPER intensely to the point they are sick and can't walk, the former will still get better results.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> Nope...
> 
> Even if you train ALL OUT, there is no way your MPS will be elevated any longer than 48 hrs, and the other benefits (neuromuscular and repeated bout effect) have nothing to do with intensity but solely frequency alone.
> 
> ...


So how does the csn cope with this then?


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> So how does the csn cope with this then?


The CNS isn't as delicate as people seem to believe... however, let's consider this is a worry; a frequency of 2 x per week (even 3 and 4 x per week...) is not going to fry your CNS as long as the program is specifically suited to that frequency. For instance, you will notice the change in volume to accommodate for increased frequency.

... many times have I implemented a twice per day program (hitting each muscle group 4 x per week!) and will be nowhere near any problems with my CNS.

It comes down to intelligent programming, sufficient nutrition and sleep.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> The CNS isn't as delicate as people seem to believe... however, let's consider this is a worry; a frequency of 2 x per week (even 3 and 4 x per week...) is not going to fry your CNS as long as the program is specifically suited to that frequency. For instance, you will notice the change in volume to accommodate for increased frequency.
> 
> ... many times have I implemented a twice per day program *(hitting each muscle group 4 x per week!) *and will be nowhere near any problems with my CNS.
> 
> It comes down to intelligent programming, sufficient nutrition and sleep.


Hitting each MG 4x per week now that is interesting? Care to share your programme for gains?


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

@andyhuggins @Kristina You both make good points. Kristina particularly about the duration of increased protein synthesis in the muscle, and andy particularly about the volume of the workout vs the frequency. For example, you can't mash the chest with, say, 8 exercises, and expect the muscles to be fully recovered and to hit them again a few days later, whereas with 1-2 exercises they'll be fully recovered. There needs to be a balance between volume and frequency of course. A lot of it depends on how often you deload as well though - so for a person with average-poor recovery ability, if they trained PPL twice a week at full volume they'd be heavily fatigued by about 4-5 weeks and would stall and eventually regress if they continued. If they deloaded at the 4 week mark though and took it easy for a week, then that accumulated fatigue would dissipate and they could then start over again fresh. "Controlled over-reaching" I believe is the name for this approach.

Whereas on the other end of the table, if you keep leaving it too long between each workout you'll start regressing between workouts, and your progress wouldn't be would it could potentially be. So either way, if you either don't allow full recovery or take too long between sessions, you won't progress as well as you could and it's up to you to experiment and see what frequency works best for you.

Just thought I'd throw my 2p into your guys' pond there, think you're both right but it depends how you go about things as to whether or not your frequency will work :thumbup1:


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> Hitting each MG 4x per week now that is interesting? Care to share your programme for gains?


... haha sure I can. I will post it tomorrow when I get on my computer (I'm in bed on tapatalk right now!).

It will also be my program for 8 weeks of my prep to April.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> ... haha sure I can. I will post it tomorrow when I get on my computer (I'm in bed on tapatalk right now!).
> 
> It will also be my program for 8 weeks of my prep to April.


Only 8 weeks prep, you must be on point then.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> Only 8 weeks prep, you must be on point then.


No... my prep is 16 weeks.

For 8 of those weeks, I will be implementing it.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> No... my prep is 16 weeks.
> 
> For 8 of those weeks, I will be implementing it.


Implementing What?

What training?

What diet?

What rest?


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

> @andyhuggins @Kristina You both make good points. Kristina particularly about the duration of increased protein synthesis in the muscle, and andy particularly about the volume of the workout vs the frequency. For example, you can't mash the chest with, say, 8 exercises, and expect the muscles to be fully recovered and to hit them again a few days later, whereas with 1-2 exercises they'll be fully recovered. There needs to be a balance between volume and frequency of course. A lot of it depends on how often you deload as well though - so for a person with average-poor recovery ability, if they trained PPL twice a week at full volume they'd be heavily fatigued by about 4-5 weeks and would stall and eventually regress if they continued. If they deloaded at the 4 week mark though and took it easy for a week, then that accumulated fatigue would dissipate and they could then start over again fresh. "Controlled over-reaching" I believe is the name for this approach.
> 
> Whereas on the other end of the table, if you keep leaving it too long between each workout you'll start regressing between workouts, and your progress wouldn't be would it could potentially be. So either way, if you either don't allow full recovery or take too long between sessions, you won't progress as well as you could and it's up to you to experiment and see what frequency works best for you.
> 
> Just thought I'd throw my 2p into your guys' pond there, think you're both right but it depends how you go about things as to whether or not your frequency will work 1:


Yep I do agree with most of what you mention completely... except that twice per week frequency is really not that taxing. I wouldn't expect anyone to need to deload every 4 weeks with that frequency.

Sure, when you go into the more advanced 3 and 4 frequency... that requires more attention to overreaching and deload where necessary, but 2 x per week is certainly not going to burn you out unless you have some big shortcomings with your diet and sleep (under recovering).


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

andyhuggins said:


> Implementing What?
> 
> What training?
> 
> ...


BUMP


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> Implementing What?
> 
> What training?
> 
> ...


Implementing the program I was talking about.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> Implementing the program I was talking about.


And the programme is?


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

@Kristina You never mentioned a programme tbh?


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> And the programme is?


.... are you serious? Did you miss what I said?

You can't have because you quoted my post.

I seem to sense hostility...

Well, no idea why. I wasn't trying to insult you but was having a civil conversation. Not sure why you've taken something the wrong way.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

@Kristina I must have missed the programme you recommended. Would you care to state it again?


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> @Kristina I must have missed the programme you recommended. Would you care to state it again?


I think maybe you should read some of the last posts on the thread because I think you're misunderstanding something.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Kristina said:


> Yep I do agree with most of what you mention completely... except that twice per week frequency is really not that taxing. I wouldn't expect anyone to need to deload every 4 weeks with that frequency.
> 
> Sure, when you go into the more advanced 3 and 4 frequency... that requires more attention to overreaching and deload where necessary, but 2 x per week is certainly not going to burn you out unless you have some big shortcomings with your diet and sleep (under recovering).


Yeah depends on the volume really. Like I train on an upper/lower type split which is twice a week frequency, and I deload every 8 weeks. That's because per session I only do 1-2 exercises per muscle though - my recovery ability is average at best and I know from past experience (trained 3 days a week, twice a day for a while) that if I were to do, say, 3-6 exercises per muscle twice a week, I'd burn out within weeks. That's with my diet spot on, eating lots and sleeping well. Whereas someone with a better recovery ability than myself might be able to train like that for 2-3 months before they start to get fatigued. So yeah, it's definitely person dependant I say :thumbup1:


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> I think maybe you should read some of the last posts on the thread because I think you're misunderstanding something.


That is why I asked you to state it again.


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

Kristina said:


> ... *haha sure I can. I will post it tomorrow when I get on my computer (I'm in bed on tapatalk right now!). *
> 
> It will also be my program for 8 weeks of my prep to April.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> That is why I asked you to state it again.


... haha. First of all, this is a forum so you can re-read what was said if you missed something...

... and second of all, no idea why but you're trolling. I have no time nor desire to continue conversing with you when you're being such a juvenile so... I'm out. Night night.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> ... haha. First of all, this is a forum so you can re-read what was said if you missed something...
> 
> ... and second of all, no idea why but you're trolling. I have no time nor desire to continue conversing with you when you're being such a juvenile so... I'm out. Night night.


 TBH I am not a troll. I just considered the info you were giving as just "copy and paste" As it was just so all enveloping.


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

:nono: andy, look what you done did. Now apologise and go sit on the naughty step you little toerag.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

I said:


> :nono: andy' date=' look what you done did. Now apologise and go sit on the naughty step you little toerag.[/quote']
> 
> SORRY @Kristina I am now sat on the naughty step


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

andyhuggins said:


> TBH I am not a troll. I just considered the info you were giving as just "copy and paste" As it was just so all enveloping.


What????

Well my friend... you couldn't be more wrong. NO copy and paste there whatsoever.

I shall take that as a compliment, though.

Yes, I felt the need to return and reply to that comment because all of what I said is 100% my knowledge and I work bloody hard every single day to be the best person I can be in my field. I learn, I study, I practice, I read, I attend seminars, I plan to present seminars, I research and that means case studies. It's highly insulting that someone I decide to have a conversation with decides to completely throw that right in my face and tell me that it's copy and paste (and it wasn't even anything particularly complex!!).

But you know what... I have nothing to prove to you.

This time, I am out.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Kristina said:


> What????
> 
> Well my friend... you couldn't be more wrong. NO copy and paste there whatsoever.
> 
> ...


Ohh well you will get over it. Then hopefully you will move on to give some serious advice.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

@Kristina


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

Kristina said:


> I'm totally confused; PPL does fit into 7 days though... in fact, it fits perfectly into 7 days (with one days rest, whether it's 3 on 1 off - or - 6 on 1 off)...


100% agree


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## SickCurrent (Sep 19, 2005)




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