# is decline essential



## pieball (Mar 4, 2008)

is it essental to do decline,flat and incline to build a good all round chest,im buying a bench for home but alot of them dont do decline


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

If you want to do decline just get something to put under the front of the bench, hey presto

decline bench


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## willsey4 (Apr 21, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> If you want to do decline just get something to put under the front of the bench, hey presto
> 
> decline bench


Exactly, not many gyms have decline benches. Just put some wood under the bench etc.

Whether you have to do decline or not depends on how your chest looks like and your genetics. If your lower chest needs work then include incline in your workouts.

However flat benching might work the lower chest aswell. If not cable crossovers work my lower chest well.


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## skipjack (Mar 28, 2010)

willsey4 said:


> Exactly, not many gyms have decline benches. Just put some wood under the bench etc.
> 
> Whether you have to do decline or not depends on how your chest looks like and your genetics. If your lower chest needs work then include incline in your workouts.
> 
> However flat benching might work the lower chest aswell. If not cable crossovers work my lower chest well.


I would have thought incline worked your upper chest?? :confused1: Does for me anyway...


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## m575 (Apr 4, 2010)

might be because they're on about decline not incline lol


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

skipjack said:


> I would have thought incline worked your upper chest?? :confused1: Does for me anyway...


Where did you see upper chest or incline in Willseys post???

there is a belief that a pressing movement works the chest whatever angle

it is, the chest is just one muscle so cannot be isolated at all ie upper mid or lower simply don't exist.

Changing angles will just take out or bring in differing muscles.

I'm not certain where I stand with this although I do believe the best pressing

movement to isolate the chest from other muscles (pressing wise) is decline

pressing.

Although I always find the ROM too short with this, just the way I'm built


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## 71081 (Apr 23, 2009)

willsey4 said:


> Exactly, not many gyms have decline benches. Just put some wood under the bench etc.
> 
> Whether you have to do decline or not depends on how your chest looks like and your genetics. *If your lower chest needs work then include incline in your workouts. *
> 
> However flat benching might work the lower chest aswell. If not cable crossovers work my lower chest well.


Here is what he means tel....... :thumbup1:


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## skipjack (Mar 28, 2010)

71081 said:


> Here is what he means tel....... :thumbup1:


Thankyou very much man!!


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

71081 said:


> Here is what he means tel....... :thumbup1:


Did you read my post:confused1: :confused1:

You cannot isolate differing parts of one muscle, its impossible, down to genetics

which press will work best for you.

The chest is not like the delts, biceps, triceps with a number of heads, its just

one muscle.

This is the general consensus nowadays

I was just saying I wasn't sure where I stood on whether its the truth or not

but ppl in the know tell me its a fact


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Oops, my bad, didn't notice willseys deliberate mistake, apologies for misunderstanding your

posts

pretty obvious it was a slip of the keyboard though:rolleye:


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## 71081 (Apr 23, 2009)

did u read my post.....ha ha


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## Dsahna (May 25, 2009)

tel3563 said:


> Where did you see upper chest or incline in Willseys post???
> 
> *there is a belief that a pressing movement works the chest whatever angle*
> 
> ...


Im with you there tel,i thought the belief of changing the shape of a muscle with different exercises went out with the ark!


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

KJW said:


> My chest is always hefty sore after decline.
> 
> Very rarely do it as a result.


Yeah you don't want to actually get a big chest or any thing:whistling:

Decline is my fav then comes flat. I don't do incline bench as it hurts my shoulders and does very little for my chest.

Decline activates the most chest fibers so what do you think incline is doing?


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## deeppurple (Mar 13, 2010)

look away from the sea.

I CAN TAKE YOU ANYWHERE.


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## Phez (Sep 2, 2009)

I've read that incline bench press only activates 5% more muscle fibres in the upper chest then flat bench press does.......however it said that reverse grip flat bench press activates 30% more......

What are people's thoughts on this?


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## willsey4 (Apr 21, 2008)

Sorry guys, there was a mistake in my previous post. Was meant to say decline!

Would also like to say about incline that imo too many people have the bench too high which therefore brings your shoulders too much into play. On incline have the bench about 20 to 25 percent incline.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

There's a good article here - Variations In The Bench Press, that reviews muscle activation in bench press variations (grip width as well as torso angle) as measured by EMG and should help clarify which exercises performed with standard form work which part of the chest.

I can also link an abstract of the study they refer to if anyone wants to look at it.


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## WillOdling (Aug 27, 2009)

I do flat, incline and decline


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## rs007 (May 28, 2007)

pieball said:


> is it essental to do decline,flat and incline to build a good all round chest,im buying a bench for home but alot of them dont do decline


No it isn't essential.

It depends more on your pec tie ins to be honest - although we are all essentially the same, the devil is in the detail, and we all have subtley different muscle bellies, tie ins, tendon lengths - and this means that the specific angle that does one person wonders, may do nothing - or even injure - someone else.

Case in point, weeman an me.

We only ever used to do incline bench. Brian didn't like flat, and I just followed suit.

But then I thought, my chest just isnt changing, and to top it off, it hurts my shoulders.

So I started doing flat.

Very little shoulder pain, and very quickly started being able to push semi decent wieghts. Chest also thickened a bit for the first time in years, especially the upper, which goes against current gym wisdom.

But flat hurts Brian.

When you look at our different pec shape and tie in points, it does become mechanically clear why it works this way...

So no, you don't need all 3 - I mean you might - but your sweet spot might be anywhere on the angle from decline to incline.

The only way to know is to experiment I am afraid!


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Phez said:


> I've read that incline bench press only activates 5% more muscle fibres in the upper chest then flat bench press does.......however it said that reverse grip flat bench press activates 30% more......
> 
> What are people's thoughts on this?


there is no "upper chest muscle"

How could you train chest with reverse grip bench, its a triceps exercise hence

the tri's will weaken long before any chest muscle fibers are worked efficiently

So I suppose my thoughts are "a load of tripe"


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> There's a good article here - Variations In The Bench Press, that reviews muscle activation in bench press variations (grip width as well as torso angle) as measured by EMG and should help clarify which exercises performed with standard form work which part of the chest.
> 
> I can also link an abstract of the study they refer to if anyone wants to look at it.


This is not an extensive reference list. Some of the titles look like they have nothing to do with the question at hand either.

It looks like a mix of opinion and a little research.

There is lots more out there as has been discussed before on this site.

Opinion will vary, so you can always find some science to back your standpoint whatever it is 

Barnett, C., Kippers, V., and Turner, P. (1995). Effects of variations of the bench press exercise on the EMG activity of five shoulder muscles. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 9(4): 222-227.

Elliot, B.C., Wilson, G.J., and Kerr, G.K. (1989). A biomechanical analysis of the sticking region in the bench press. Medicine, Science, Sports and Exercise. 21(4): 450-462.

Lockhardt, R.D. (1974). Living Anatomy: A Photographic Atlas of Muscles in Action and Surface Contours, 7th ed. London: Farber & Farber.

McCaw, S.T. and Friday, J.J. (1994). A comparison of muscle activity between a free weight and machine bench press. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 8(4):259-264.

Thompson, C.E. and Floyd, R.T. (1994). The shoulder joint. In: Manual of Structural Kinesiology, 12th ed. Smith, J.M. Ed. St. Louis, MS: Mosby-Year Book.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

phys sam said:


> Opinion will vary, so you can always find some science to back your standpoint whatever it is


There should be a big sign in every gym with these exact words on it:thumbup1:


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Lois_Lane said:


> ...
> 
> Decline is my fav then comes flat. I don't do incline bench as it hurts my shoulders and does very little for my chest.
> 
> Decline activates the most chest fibers so what do you think incline is doing?


 :thumb:

Inclines are shoulder exercises. By the time you get to 60º upright your delts are doing all the work: your pecs actually lengthen as you press, so don't contract or contribute any force.

The reason guys think they work the upper chest is because the tendons get stressed at a different angle and therfore ache, but the two pec mucles are both tied into the same insertion on the humerus, and move as one.

Declines and cable crosses give by far the biggest range of movement and work the pecs most directly and hardest.


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## boofstien (May 29, 2010)

I prefer dips over bench, I find it easier on my sholders and seems to give me deeper soreness and pump. Esspecially if I go to negitive failure also.

I would have thought dips to be better for the lower pecs than the decline but this is my uneducated 2pence only.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

phys sam said:


> This is not an extensive reference list. Some of the titles look like they have nothing to do with the question at hand either.
> 
> It looks like a mix of opinion and a little research.
> 
> ...


What 'standpoint' was I trying to use science to back up? I didn't state an opinion in my post, just offered people an article to look at (which is basically a close and accurate rewrite of the conclusions from Barnett study first in your list of cited ones... hardly based on just "a little science").


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## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

rs007 said:


> No it isn't essential.
> 
> It depends more on your pec tie ins to be honest - although we are all essentially the same, the devil is in the detail, and we all have subtley different muscle bellies, tie ins, tendon lengths - and this means that the specific angle that does one person wonders, may do nothing - or even injure - someone else.
> 
> ...


Nice post Rams.

On paper you could argue Decline beats Flat, which beats Incline, which beats etc etc, but everyone is so different theres no cut and dry approach.

I find with heavier flat work it becomes less chest and more delts/tri's, decline work is more chest/tri's, but i have to be careful with my rotator cuff. Incline gives a half-decent feeling, but understandably is quite delt-dominant.

TBH unless you're at the top end of the competing, you can get by with 2-3 presses and a fly movement if you want. Beyond that theres far too much splitting hairs.

Too much is made of chest focuses. When was the last time you saw someone trying to isolate their semitendinosus, semimembranosus and biceps femoris heads? :lol:


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Ak_88 said:


> ...
> 
> On paper you could argue Decline beats Flat, which beats Incline, which beats etc etc, but *everyone is so different* theres no cut and dry approach...


This is so often said, but it shouldn't be exaggerated.

We're much more alike than different.

That's why we can be certain that medicine, bodybuilding, etc. work.


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## robc (Sep 21, 2008)

Lois_Lane said:


> Yeah you don't want to actually get a big chest or any thing:whistling:
> 
> Decline is my fav then comes flat. I don't do incline bench as it hurts my shoulders and does very little for my chest.
> 
> Decline activates the most chest fibers so what do you think incline is doing?


activating the most shoulder fibres


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## Guest (May 30, 2010)

Prodiver said:


> This is so often said, but it shouldn't be exaggerated.
> 
> We're much more alike than different.
> 
> That's why we can be certain that medicine, bodybuilding, etc. work.


That's the opposite to what you say when it comes to carbs mate..


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

Dan said:


> That's the opposite to what you say when it comes to carbs mate..


Not at all! I don't know why you should think that...

We all react very similarly to carb intake.

It's far more our varying daily routines, workouts and the weather that alter how much carbs we need.


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## Guest (May 30, 2010)

Prodiver said:


> Not at all! I don't know why you should think that...
> 
> We all react very similarly to carb intake.
> 
> It's far more our varying daily routines, workouts and the weather that alter how much carbs we need.


I just got the impression you meant everyone is different regarding carbs, fair play :thumbup1:


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## robc (Sep 21, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> Not at all! I don't know why you should think that...
> 
> We all react very similarly to carb intake.
> 
> It's far more our varying daily routines, workouts and the *weather* that alter how much carbs we need.


 :lol:

Seriously though, do you mean if it is hot or cold? please discuss.


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## Guest (May 30, 2010)

robc said:


> :lol:
> 
> Seriously though, do you mean if it is hot or cold? please discuss.


Use your brain :lol: If you are in an exceptionally cold place, would you need more or less carbs?


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## robc (Sep 21, 2008)

Dan said:


> Use your brain :lol: If you are in an exceptionally cold place, would you need more or less carbs?


hey you I am using my brain its how I managed to login in the first place :lol:

let alone build my own pc out of spare cardboard, tape, chickenwire and mouldy potatoes.


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## BlitzAcez (Mar 6, 2008)

I always imagined it to be something like

Decline 60% lower 30% middle and 10% upper.

Flat 20% lower 60% middle and 20% upper.

Incline 10% lower 30% middle and 60% upper.

Is that not right then :confused1:


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## dman (Jun 15, 2009)

i would say do decline. i can flat bench SO much more than decline...


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

robc said:


> :lol:
> 
> Seriously though, do you mean if it is hot or cold? please discuss.


Yes. If the weather's cold, and you spend alot of time outside, if the gym's cold, etc., you'll use more energy and need more calories.

To get these you might eat some more fats and oils, or just up your carbs a bit...


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

BlitzAcez said:


> I always imagined it to be something like
> 
> Decline 60% lower 30% middle and 10% upper.
> 
> ...


No, a muscle contraction is a muscle contraction. I think the reason some people fail to develop the upper chest is simply due to a lack of overall pec size and full ROM working the muscle fully.


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## 71081 (Apr 23, 2009)

I PERSONALLY think that flat is essential. decline and incline COULD also be done for improving the chest. But the people to listen to are the guys who do the shows etc.

My chest routine is:

Something on flat.

Something on incline

Something on decline

Then cable work.

Press ups to finish if i have anything left in the tank.

Swap the incline and decline round occassionally!


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

BlitzAcez said:


> I always imagined it to be something like
> 
> Decline 60% lower 30% middle and 10% upper.
> 
> ...


Yes. It's not right. The "lower" pec, the pectoralis minor, is not below the upper as you stand up - it's behind it.

You cannot work the upper part of your pecs more, or less, than the lower by varying the angle of an exercise.

You can put the maximum stress on all the muscle fibres of your pecs by working them in the shortest path with the greatest range of movement, and declines and cable crosses do this.


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## 71081 (Apr 23, 2009)

good stuff patrick!!! NOTED!!


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## robc (Sep 21, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> Yes. The "lower" pec, the pectoralis minor, is not below the upper as you stand up - it's behind it.
> 
> You cannot work the upper part of your pecs than the lower more, or less, by varying the angle of an exercise.
> 
> You can put the maximum stress on all the muscle fibres of your pecs by working them in the shortest path with the greatest range of movement, and declines and *cable crosses* do this.


I know the angle of movement is a little different, not pushing down and in, but can normal flat bench flies with db's work just as good? or is the pushing downward motion essential for better development?

Oh and it makes sense about needing more calories in a colder climate, needing more energy to keep your internal temp at the correct level..



Lois_Lane said:


> No, a muscle contraction is a muscle contraction. I think the reason some people fail to develop the upper chest is simply due to a lack of overall pec size and full ROM working the muscle fully.


I believe the muscle is mostly concentrated in the lower and outer regions more than the inner upper area and hence when you start to build really big pecs then the upper becomes more visible, not because it isnt there, it just isnt big enough to be so visible? would I be right in believing this?


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

robc said:


> ...can normal flat bench flies with db's work just as good? or is the pushing downward motion essential for better development?...


Hypertrophy depends on the stress you place on a muscle.

Any muscle is stressed maximally when it is concentrically, and especially eccentrically, contracted from its shortest to its longest over its most direct path.

The pec muscles are designed not to bring your forearms from out at the sides to vertical, as in flat benching and flyes, but to bring your hands from outstretched overhead, like Leonardo's Renaissance man, forward and down to your nuts, and declines and cable crosses mimic this movement better than any other exercise.

Pressing with weights is good for general thickness as you have to control the weights, but the force reduces to zero at the top of any press; cables impose constant force troughout the movement.

Everyone should have muscle diagrams and get to know all the insertion (attachment) points and the shortest contraction paths...


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## robc (Sep 21, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> Hypertrophy depends on the stress you place on a muscle.
> 
> Any muscle is stressed maximally when it is concentrically, and especially eccentrically, contracted from its shortest to its longest over its most direct path.
> 
> ...


very well said mate thanks


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## tom_91 (Jul 7, 2009)

Sorry to change the subject a little, but prodiver, what would you say the exercises are with the shortest paths for the other muscles?


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

tom_91 said:


> Sorry to change the subject a little, but prodiver, what would you say the exercises are with the shortest paths for the other muscles?


How long have you got!?

What muscles did you have in mind?


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## tom_91 (Jul 7, 2009)

well currently for the other muscles main muscles i'm doing;

shoulders- lat raise,reverse fly,barbell press

legs- leg ext, leg curl, squat

back- pulldown, barbell rows, deadlifts

Any improvement possible?


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## robc (Sep 21, 2008)

I would say take it to pm as to not jack the thread but to be fair I think this knowledge will be interesting and helpful to a few people


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

tom_91 said:


> well currently for the other muscles main muscles i'm doing;
> 
> shoulders- lat raise,reverse fly,barbell press
> 
> ...


Shoulders: strict one-arm lateral raises, the arm kept well out to the side, work all three delts, but chiefly the central main delts, as do overhead/military presses - dumbells are best; front raises work the front delts; the rear delts are hard to isolate - bent over or reverse flyes work the traps of the back more.

Legs mucle paths are obvious - but a change of foot position can relieve your knee joints of dangerous loads in squats,extensions, curls and calf raises.

Back: a wide grip pulldown does not give the greatest stress and movement to the lats: close grip pulldowns with a v-handle or under-grip work better. Don't lean back, except to crank out the last few reps, as doing so makes it more of a traps exercise than lats.

Dumbell bent-over rows give a greater range of movement than barbell. Rest your chest on a bench or, better, your forehead on something so you do them strictly and can't cheat.

Strict and slow - no heaving or throwing the weights in any exercise.


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## tom_91 (Jul 7, 2009)

ok thanks will bear that in mind!


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## robc (Sep 21, 2008)

Prodiver said:


> Shoulders: strict one-arm lateral raises, the arm kept well out to the side, work all three delts, but chiefly the central main delts, as do overhead/military presses - dumbells are best; front raises work the front delts; *the rear delts are hard to isolate* - bent over or reverse flyes work the traps of the back more.
> 
> Legs mucle paths are obvious - but a change of foot position can relieve your knee joints of dangerous loads in squats,extensions, curls and calf raises.
> 
> ...


I found reverse flys on the machine isolated them well.. or at least it felt like it..


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## Prodiver (Nov 14, 2008)

robc said:


> I found reverse flys on the machine isolated them well.. or at least it felt like it..


It'd be nice to think so, but reverse flyes also work the traps which go from the neck down to the lower middle of the back and out to the scapula.


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## phys sam (Jan 11, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> What 'standpoint' was I trying to use science to back up? I didn't state an opinion in my post, just offered people an article to look at (which is basically a close and accurate rewrite of the conclusions from Barnett study first in your list of cited ones... hardly based on just "a little science").


woah there nelly

It was a general point not aimed at you or your beliefs.

However, my point re: pathetic reference list and one study only still stands.


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## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

Please don't talk about problems with EMG, i still have nightmares over the 'problems' (understatement!) i had with EMG during my dissertation last year.

Great tool, fcking hard to reliably use :lol:


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Oops, think I somehow deleted my post :confused1:

Yeah, EMG studies unreliable when you get the electrode placement wrong, especially when systemically over a whole study... I do still like the Barnett study though and the article write up of it... yes phys sam, I know it has limitations and a small range of source material, but limitations don't necessarily mean inaccuracy... that conclusion can only be made when better scientific evidence is provided and I've yet to find any or see any presented.

For me personally, weighted dips (forward lean, elbows flared) seem the most productive chest exercise... much better than any bench press variation for my body type.


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