# Ephedrine AM Fasted Cardio



## UKWolverine (Apr 25, 2009)

I read somewhere, think it was by Lyle McDonald, that you shouldn't take eph pre fasted cardio, just the caffeine. Then throw in the eph dose 30 mins after the cardio.

Does anyone else prescribe to this theory?


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

no. y would you do this?


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## UKWolverine (Apr 25, 2009)

big_jim_87 said:


> no. y would you do this?


Lyle thinks it's a bad idea to have eph pre fasted cardio, just wondered if anyone else agrees with this, not sure about the science behind his argument I will try and track down the article.


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## clairey.h (Feb 8, 2009)

have no idea about the science behind it, would like to know as I always take eph before fasted cardio infact before most cardio, I always assumed it gave the metabolism a bump start???????


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Eph and cafh are superior to either alone. Eph with no caf doesn't even helo fatty acid oxidisation iirc..


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## UKWolverine (Apr 25, 2009)

I can't find the bloody article can I  I'll keep digging, for now ignore me.


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## UKWolverine (Apr 25, 2009)

Give the man a cigar!

Getting Rid of Stubborn Bodyfat- by Lyle McDonald

Without going into the brutally long and complicated mental computations that led me to this (and I'm still working on the overall scheme), here's my current thoughts on how to approach it.

First and foremost, this is one of the places where morning/pre-breakfast cardio is probably crucially important.

An hour or two before cardio, take 200 mg caffeine with 1-3 grams of L-tyrosine (*NO ephedrine*).

There are two segments to the cardio:

- The first segment is for mobilization, to get those stubborn fatty acids out of the fat cell.

- The second segment is the oxidation part, to burn them off in the muscle.

For the first segment of the cardio, use a machine that you don't normally use. So if you normally do the treadmill, do the first segment on the stairmaster or bike or something. Just make it different.

First segment:

warmup: 3-5 minutes

go hard: 5-10 minutes. I mean hard, as hard as you can stand for the entire time. This will NOT be fun on lowered blood glucose. I've considered putting intervals here but haven't found the data I need to make up my mind. If you do intervals, go something like 5X1' all out with a 1' break (10' total intervals)

Rest 5', just sit on your butt, drink water, try not to puke.

Go to your normal cardio machine. Do at least 30 minutes at moderate/high moderate intensity (below lactate threshold but decent intensity). I'd say 45' maximum here but I'm still making up my mind and looking at data.

Go home, and wait and hour before having a small protein meal (25-50 grams or so). No dietary fat. 2-3 hours later, go back to normal diet eating. Your daily calories shouldn't be any different than they were already, they are just distributed differently, you only have 100-200 immediately after cardio, and then the rest afterwards.

I'd do that maybe 3 days per week to start, and see what happens.

Why this works

To get stubborn fat mobilized, you have to overcome a fairly severe resistance in terms of both blood flow and lipolysis, this requires very high concentrations of catecholamines (adrenaline/noradrenaline). Sadly, jacking up levels of catecholamines (necessary for mobilization) limits burning in the muscle which is why you follow the high intensity with low intensity.

Basically, you jack up levels to get the fat mobilized, and then let them fall so that the fatty acid can be burned in the muscle.

*I have a study showing that Ephedrine before intense activity lowers the catecholamine response, that's the reason for avoiding it. Studies also show a lower than normal catecholamine response as people adapt to a given type of cardio; doing a different machine will result in a higher catecholamine response than you'd other wise get.*

The bigger problem with stubborn fat has to do with:

- Blood flow to the fat cells: which is typically very low, odds are your butt is cold to the touch compared to other areas of your body

- It's harder to mobilize: both because of impaired blood flow, and because of adrenoceptor issues.

Oral yohimbe (0.2 mg/kg) can be effective when used over the long term. Don't take it within 3-4 hours of taking ephedrine, and start with a half-dose to assess tolerance (some people get really freaky responses from it). IF you can find pharmaceutical yohimbine, it's far far better than the herbal version (and most of the herbal versions are crap, the only one I trust is Twinlab Yohimbe Fuel).

Taking the yohimbe with caffeine prior to morning cardio does seem to help with very stubborn fat.


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## UKWolverine (Apr 25, 2009)

To my mind Lyle has structured this stubborn fat plan of attack around that cardio protocol and for it to work you need a maximum catecholamine response, which ephedrine blunts to a degree.

Oh I must of made up the thing about throwing in the eph dose in 30 mins after the cardio.


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## clairey.h (Feb 8, 2009)

UKWolverine said:


> To my mind Lyle has structured this stubborn fat plan of attack around that cardio protocol and for it to work you need a maximum catecholamine response, which ephedrine blunts to a degree.
> 
> *Oh I must of made up the thing about throwing in the eph dose in 30 mins after the cardio.*


pmsl.....wasnt that part of the basis of this thread.....lol :laugh:


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## hungryshark (May 21, 2009)

As far as i know ephedrine is a synthetic manufactured adrenaline substitute so yes it makes sense if you have taken some eph then adrenaline response will be lower as the adrenoceptor sites are already occupied and any negative feedback will reduce response.


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## hungryshark (May 21, 2009)

however surely as eph is similar it would be doing the same thing as adrenaline thats why people use it to give the metabolism a bump and shift the fat??...

oooo now i'm going to have to go do some research lol


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## UKWolverine (Apr 25, 2009)

clairey.h said:


> pmsl.....wasnt that part of the basis of this thread.....lol :laugh:


 :blush: My bad, I sometimes have this tendency to invent facts, it's like Chinese whispers the story always changes as it's passed on.


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## UKWolverine (Apr 25, 2009)

hungryshark said:


> however surely as eph is similar it would be doing the same thing as adrenaline thats why people use it to give the metabolism a bump and shift the fat??...
> 
> oooo now i'm going to have to go do some research lol


Be interested in hearing what you come up with mate :beer:


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