# Heavy Duty



## B-GJOE

I've just finished spending the last 2 hours watching a Mike Mentzer seminar on Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=55C533C48B2BE7C8

I am up trying new and radically different things, but ffs can I really grow bigger and stronger doing 1 set of squats, 1 set of reverse grip pulldowns, 1 set of deadlift, and 1 set of dips every 14 days???

I think I may give it a bash, I'm not affraid of the unconventional and non traditional. What's your thoughts??


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## essexboy

Joe.I do.My routine is Nautilus pullovers, to failure,naut pulldowns to failure, 30 second neg and a static hold, chest press,cybex hip press, naut seated dip to failure. one set each once every 5/7 days.i will use an a/b routine, as well so alternate with leg etx, hammer rows, neg dips , deadlifts.


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## BLUTOS

Its a mad thing, check on you tube and see Tom Platz doing leg extensions, as one point he's just laying down and barely moving his lower leg more than a few inches just to kill the muscle a wee bit more cos he's run out of energy for full range of motion.

Give it a try! I think that the old heavy duty system the Mentzer brothers (RIP) did also had a few warm up sets and the one work set was the final all or nothing set.

Mind you at the time of all this we had the barbarian brothers doing arm curls with 150 pound dumbells for reps.

I think with all the history of weight training we have at our finger tips now we just have a better toolbox of exercises and styles to dip into.

Best training advice I ever had was training to cycles, dont be afraid to drop the poundage for a gain.


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## B-GJOE

Bump!

Looking for more reponse guys. Anyone given Heavy Duty a real run, I'd like to know, would really love to get good results and free up loads of time.


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## Rambo55

Anyone whos read any real world studys on muscluar growth and neurulogical (sp) adations would understand that HIT training is rocking horse ****e mate,


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## essexboy

Rambo55 said:


> Anyone whos read any real world studys on muscluar growth and neurulogical (sp) adations would understand that HIT training is rocking horse ****e mate,


you obviously do then, so why not elighten us, instead of just making a sweeping statement.An opinion is just that.Worthless.


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## Rambo55

I will get some posted dude.


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## essexboy

B|GJOE said:


> Bump!
> 
> Looking for more reponse guys. Anyone given Heavy Duty a real run, I'd like to know, would really love to get good results and free up loads of time.


Er.. thought i did that Joe.22 months in.Starting weight 168, now at 215.Was training twice weekly, now once a week, to preserve recovery.


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## essexboy

Rambo55 said:


> I will get some posted dude.[/quoteplease dont bother posting reams of Psuedo science.The exact catalyst that stimulates muscle growth is not known anyway, so merely citing "an expert view" will do little to strengthen your statement.Studies are rarely unbiased, and generally have ulterior motives.All I can cite is real world experience, so unless my metabolism is not of this world, then ill continue with an HIT protocol.If you require evidence of its effacasy, im sure Con would be more than happy to oblige.


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## B-GJOE

Thanks essex, I know you responded well to my thread, however. Just looking for more evidence of success than just 1 advocate. Kind of human nature to gain reassurance that your decisions are right. What literature do recommend I read to structure an appropriate training program for myself?

I am currently taking 2 weeks off training then want start back fresh with new ideas. Havn't had any time off at all this year, even after doing a show, i was back in gym 3 days later. I am listening to my body, and I am pooped. Want to avoid over training, but not loose intensity.


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## essexboy

B|GJOE said:


> Thanks essex, I know you responded well to my thread, however. Just looking for more evidence of success than just 1 advocate. Kind of human nature to gain reassurance that your decisions are right. What literature do recommend I read to structure an appropriate training program for myself?
> 
> I am currently taking 2 weeks off training then want start back fresh with new ideas. Havn't had any time off at all this year, even after doing a show, i was back in gym 3 days later. I am listening to my body, and I am pooped. Want to avoid over training, but not loose intensity.


Joe, the final logical progression of Jones/Mentzer Hit is Body by science.you can buy the book, or check out the you tube videos.However, if you really want the meat & potatoes of the origin, search for the nautilus bulletins . this was jones finest works.Also im not sure if your aware of the colorado experiment? search that as well, and make sure you see the before/after pics of Casey.you can also goto dardens HIT site.your options for w/o, can be a split, as per mentzer pre-ex. or full body. i prefer the total exaustion that the full body permits, but thats just me.Heavy Duty 2, mind and body, is mentzers finest work, i believe.


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## paulo

dorian yates a warriors story a better read mate- similar principles


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## Prodiver

I followed Mentzer's Heavy Duty in the 80s with good results, but found it difficult to keep up because of my offshore tours of duty.

I certainly gained strength, but always felt I wasn't doing enough - mistakenly I'm sure - and wondered if I could have gained more size by doing just the right number of reps.

What's the current wisdom on the right HIT routines for sizeas opposed to strength, Essexboy, or are they still considered immutable?


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## BigDom86

not trying to ruffle any feathers. but this guy was on a shít load of gear and peptides so wouldnt any training really work? as compared to arnolds volume training?

i enjoy training so i wouldnt like to train in this heavy duty fashion and only train once a week etc.


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## Galtonator

I tried the routine in heavy duty 2. the one with the supersets and to be honest i got stronger and it worked as well as anything else i have used.


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## essexboy

Prodiver said:


> I followed Mentzer's Heavy Duty in the 80s with good results, but found it difficult to keep up because of my offshore tours of duty.
> 
> I certainly gained strength, but always felt I wasn't doing enough - mistakenly I'm sure - and wondered if I could have gained more size by doing just the right number of reps.
> 
> What's the current wisdom on the right HIT routines for sizeas opposed to strength, Essexboy, or are they still considered immutable?


Pro,The general tenants havent really changed, although they is a variety of protocols that fall under the HIT umbrella.My opinion, is to induce a systematic effect.To put the whole system, in to a state of panic, in as short time frame as possible,(to preserve recovery)and induce overall (not localised) growth.So,focus is on the big compounds.his is what has worked for me.What has changed, is frequency.Mentzer stated that he was wrong to suggest 4 day a week training.Recovery, is individual, some can recover, from 3/4 days a week , some cant.Most BB train from tradition,and the recommendations of peers.They dont question anything.Most want to use the gym as a social event,and to "enjoy" not as a tool to reach a goal.


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## essexboy

BigDom86 said:


> not trying to ruffle any feathers. but this guy was on a shít load of gear and peptides so wouldnt any training really work? as compared to arnolds volume training?
> 
> i enjoy training so i wouldnt like to train in this heavy duty fashion and only train once a week etc.


Who are you refering to Dom?


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## BigDom86

Mike Mentzer

i dont doubt the principles work though


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## B-GJOE

Seems to be some better input, which I really expected to find in such a subject. I've ordered Menzers books from amazon.

The wisdom of....

HIT the Mike Mentzer way

I've put body by science in my wish list to order when I have read the above 2.

Been surfing around a bit, and there seems to be more than 1 approach to HIT, which is to be expected because we are all different. Anyone got any sample WO's

From what I have read so far, I really believe that I have been over training. Especially that I am currently 224lbs and Natty since my recent comp.

I've been encorporating some intensity boosting principles to my workouts but still doing many sets. Just for example, my last bicep workout was:

Dumbell curls (Both curled together) to positive failure, followed by body drag curls without rest to positive failure. Sets X 3

Single arm preacher curls, tripple drop sets, each 1 to positive failure. Sets X 3

EZ bar 21's. Sets X 3

That's hell of a lot of intensity on 1 small muscle, and based on my very limited new HIT knowledge that's a certain recipe for over training. Which probabbly explaines why I am currently FOOKED!


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## Guest

Start with his earlier less extreme ways of training first and then if you feel the need move on to this.

Will it work purely depends on how you are willing and able to train.....


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## BigDom86

Con said:


> Start with his earlier less extreme ways of training first and then if you feel the need move on to this.
> 
> Will it work purely depends on how you are willing and able to train.....


what were these earlier ways out of interest?


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## B-GJOE

Con said:


> Start with his earlier less extreme ways of training first and then if you feel the need move on to this.
> 
> Will it work purely depends on how you are willing and able to train.....


I knew it wouldn't be long before you came on board Con, nice to see you.

I second the above post, what are the early less extreme ways.

Thanks Bud


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## Guest

For example taken straight from the wisdom of MM (i have the book next to me as i type this). Here is a routine he prescribed for Yates in 1992. Now we can argue Yates was using drugs while you are not, however, Yates's training ability was far higher than what most people can manage so i suggest trying it.....

Day 1 chest delts triceps

1: db flyes no rest dips full rom one set to failure

2: rest one minute

3: db side laterals one set to failure

4: rear raises one set to failure

5: tricep push downs one set to failure

REST FOR TWO DAYS

Day 2 back traps and biceps

1:close grip pull downs one set to failure emphasize the contracted position

2: barbell rows one set to failure

3: *shrugs one set to failure

4: barbell or preacher curls one set to failure

REST TWO DAYS

Day 3 Legs

1:leg extensions no rest squats one set to failue

2:leg curls one set to failure

3:** toe raises TWO sets to failure

*personally i would do one working set of deadlifts instead as they stimulate more growth.

** i find this strange as Yates had naturally superb calves what warranted a second set?!

Now his so called MOST PRODUCTIVE ROUTINE

Workout one

leg ext and leg press 1 superset

squats one set

leg curls 2 sets

calves raises 2 sets

toe presses 1 set

db flys or pec deck 1-2 super sets with

incline presses

dips 2 sets

tri pushdown 1 super set with

dips 1 set

lying tri ext 2 sets

Work out 2 this is the same week so it is a two day per week programs

nautilus pullovers 2 super sets

close grip pull downs 1 set

bent over rows 2 sets

universal shrug machine 2 super sets

upright rows 1 set

nautilus laterals 2 super sets

nautilus presses 1 set

rear delt rows 2 sets

standing bb curls 1 set

concentration curls 2 sets

6-8 REPS TO FAILURE ON EVERY THING

BigDon they did not have peptides back then. You need to learn how to train for your own body. IMO if you can train hard enough this program is the best as it gives you maximum time out side the gym to grow and do other things.


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## Galtonator

Some people will never try this as they just can see time outside the gym is when you grow. Try every training method you can as you might be missing out on something


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## hilly

Con said:


> For example taken straight from the wisdom of MM (i have the book next to me as i type this). Here is a routine he prescribed for Yates in 1992. Now we can argue Yates was using drugs while you are not, however, Yates's training ability was far higher than what most people can manage so i suggest trying it.....
> 
> Day 1 chest delts triceps
> 
> 1: db flyes no rest dips full rom one set to failure
> 
> 2: rest one minute
> 
> 3: db side laterals one set to failure
> 
> 4: rear raises one set to failure
> 
> 5: tricep push downs one set to failure
> 
> REST FOR TWO DAYS
> 
> Day 2 back traps and biceps
> 
> 1:close grip pull downs one set to failure emphasize the contracted position
> 
> 2: barbell rows one set to failure
> 
> 3: *shrugs one set to failure
> 
> 4: barbell or preacher curls one set to failure
> 
> REST TWO DAYS
> 
> Day 3 Legs
> 
> 1:leg extensions no rest squats one set to failue
> 
> 2:leg curls one set to failure
> 
> 3:** toe raises TWO sets to failure
> 
> *personally i would do one working set of deadlifts instead as they stimulate more growth.
> 
> ** i find this strange as Yates had naturally superb calves what warranted a second set?!
> 
> Now his so called MOST PRODUCTIVE ROUTINE
> 
> Workout one
> 
> leg ext and leg press 1 superset
> 
> squats one set
> 
> leg curls 2 sets
> 
> calves raises 2 sets
> 
> toe presses 1 set
> 
> db flys or pec deck 1-2 super sets with
> 
> incline presses
> 
> dips 2 sets
> 
> tri pushdown 1 super set with
> 
> dips 1 set
> 
> lying tri ext 2 sets
> 
> Work out 2 this is the same week so it is a two day per week programs
> 
> nautilus pullovers 2 super sets
> 
> close grip pull downs 1 set
> 
> bent over rows 2 sets
> 
> universal shrug machine 2 super sets
> 
> upright rows 1 set
> 
> nautilus laterals 2 super sets
> 
> nautilus presses 1 set
> 
> rear delt rows 2 sets
> 
> standing bb curls 1 set
> 
> concentration curls 2 sets
> 
> 6-8 REPS TO FAILURE ON EVERY THING
> 
> BigDon they did not have peptides back then. You need to learn how to train for your own body. IMO if you can train hard enough this program is the best as it gives you maximum time out side the gym to grow and do other things.


those look interesting,

con what mike mentzer book/books would you suggest reading if i was going to buy 1 or 2?


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## essexboy

Hilly, buy HD 2 , or the wisdom of mentzer, or HIT the mentzer way.Any will give you an insight.Hit mentzer way has some amazing trainning pics too.


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## hilly

thnks pal, ill have a look round amazon.


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## essexboy

Con said:


> Start with his earlier less extreme ways of training first and then if you feel the need move on to this.
> 
> Will it work purely depends on how you are willing and able to train.....


As Con says, The key is How hard are you willing to train? You need a partner whos tuned in, to coax every last rep in perfect form.you really have to develop a gun to head mentality.if you can do this, the routine is not the critical factor, its the APPLICATION of the principles thats the key.To perfrom a set of perfect leg etx, to total faliure, without bottling out when it gets hard, then to squat or leg press to collapse does require a certain mentality. :confused1:


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## B-GJOE

Well I think I will read the books when I get them next week. Work out a routine, and then start an 8 week journal, I'll be the human guinea pig.

Just 1 more question, how can I get the required intensity without a training partner? Drop sets??


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## BigDom86

essexboy said:


> As Con says, The key is How hard are you willing to train? You need a partner whos tuned in, to coax every last rep in perfect form.you really have to develop a gun to head mentality.if you can do this, the routine is not the critical factor, its the APPLICATION of the principles thats the key.To perfrom a set of perfect leg etx, to total faliure, without bottling out when it gets hard, then to squat or leg press to collapse does require a certain mentality. :confused1:


is there any good video examples of training like this? i take it you do slow negatives etc and help with a spot for forced negatives and such things


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## Galtonator

if you look on you tube there is a lot of short videos


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## essexboy

B|GJOE said:


> Well I think I will read the books when I get them next week. Work out a routine, and then start an 8 week journal, I'll be the human guinea pig.
> 
> Just 1 more question, how can I get the required intensity without a training partner? Drop sets??[/quoteJ
> 
> Joe if you train alone,firstly use machines(if of good quality) smith machines etc, so that when you fail , your not compromising safety.If your going to do more than a couple of sets per bodypart, just go to positive failure.too much inroad , can quickly lead to overtraining.i use a nautilus circuit, so safety is not a worry, i can fail, and walk away.On leg press i will sometimes train one legged, then when you fail, the resting leg can help to raise the weight for a few negs.dips, & chins are easy, as you can fail, then use your legs to reset, for negs.


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## essexboy

B|GJOE said:


> Seems to be some better input, which I really expected to find in such a subject. I've ordered Menzers books from amazon.
> 
> The wisdom of....
> 
> HIT the Mike Mentzer way
> 
> I've put body by science in my wish list to order when I have read the above 2.
> 
> Been surfing around a bit, and there seems to be more than 1 approach to HIT, which is to be expected because we are all different. Anyone got any sample WO's
> 
> From what I have read so far, I really believe that I have been over training. Especially that I am currently 224lbs and Natty since my recent comp.
> 
> I've been encorporating some intensity boosting principles to my workouts but still doing many sets. Just for example, my last bicep workout was:
> 
> Dumbell curls (Both curled together) to positive failure, followed by body drag curls without rest to positive failure. Sets X 3
> 
> Single arm preacher curls, tripple drop sets, each 1 to positive failure. Sets X 3
> 
> EZ bar 21's. Sets X 3
> 
> That's hell of a lot of intensity on 1 small muscle, and based on my very limited new HIT knowledge that's a certain recipe for over training. Which probabbly explaines why I am currently FOOKED!


Iused Dardens arm specialisation w/o last year.One minute chin, thats a slow 30 seconds up, then 30 seconds lowering, you need a partner for this who can call out 5.10,15, as you gradually inch your way up.same for lowering, then straight into regular curls for 6/8 reps, to failure.start at 30sec up/down, then try and add 5 seconds every w/o, to try and get to a minute up/down. the intensity is mindblowing.


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## essexboy

BigDom86 said:


> is there any good video examples of training like this? i take it you do slow negatives etc and help with a spot for forced negatives and such things


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## essexboy

B|GJOE said:


> Seems to be some better input, which I really expected to find in such a subject. I've ordered Menzers books from amazon.
> 
> The wisdom of....
> 
> HIT the Mike Mentzer way
> 
> I've put body by science in my wish list to order when I have read the above 2.
> 
> Been surfing around a bit, and there seems to be more than 1 approach to HIT, which is to be expected because we are all different. Anyone got any sample WO's
> 
> From what I have read so far, I really believe that I have been over training. Especially that I am currently 224lbs and Natty since my recent comp.
> 
> I've been encorporating some intensity boosting principles to my workouts but still doing many sets. Just for example, my last bicep workout was:
> 
> Dumbell curls (Both curled together) to positive failure, followed by body drag curls without rest to positive failure. Sets X 3
> 
> Single arm preacher curls, tripple drop sets, each 1 to positive failure. Sets X 3
> 
> EZ bar 21's. Sets X 3
> 
> That's hell of a lot of intensity on 1 small muscle, and based on my very limited new HIT knowledge that's a certain recipe for over training. Which probabbly explaines why I am currently FOOKED!


 http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/the_rebirth_of_hit


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## essexboy

BigDom86 said:


> what were these earlier ways out of interest?


 this is where Mentzers work was based, he meet casey at the 71 america.casey was the youngest ever winner (19) mentzer came 10th.

http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/blog/2007/09/casey-viator-and-colorado-experiment.html


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## B-GJOE

Bluddy 'Ell essexboy, thanks a million for all your supportive posts mate. Reps to ya


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## BigDom86

essexboy said:


> this is where Mentzers work was based, he meet casey at the 71 america.casey was the youngest ever winner (19) mentzer came 10th.
> 
> http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/blog/2007/09/casey-viator-and-colorado-experiment.html


yep you shown me this before. very impressive indeed  i heard it was supposedly done without PEDs too?


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## essexboy

B|GJOE said:


> Bluddy 'Ell essexboy, thanks a million for all your supportive posts mate. Reps to ya[/quote
> 
> Your welcome.you have advantageous genes. I think youll do well.


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## essexboy

BigDom86 said:


> yep you shown me this before. very impressive indeed  i heard it was supposedly done without PEDs too?


There is some debate.Casey was being paid on a $ per lb of muscle.The temptation must have been great.However,Casey was terrified of Jones.He was an awesome character, Casey was a 19 year old kid.He was told that if he was caught using anything, hed be sacked.Casey had only used Dinabol previously.He says he was clean.I believe him.Remember he was re-gaining muscle that he previously held.He is still huge,today.


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## Gerry_bhoy

Can't believe I didn't notice this thread.

Watched Mentzer's whole seminar last night.

So a compromise between Mentzer and Jones would be a full body workout every 4-5 days or so, 1 working set to failure per bodypart?

Or maybe even Mentzer's A/B - one every 5 days, therefore going 10 days between the same bodypart?


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## essexboy

Gerry_bhoy said:


> Can't believe I didn't notice this thread.
> 
> Watched Mentzer's whole seminar last night.
> 
> So a compromise between Mentzer and Jones would be a full body workout every 4-5 days or so, 1 working set to failure per bodypart?
> 
> Or maybe even Mentzer's A/B - one every 5 days, therefore going 10 days between the same bodypart?


yup.id start with an a/b routine.i used to use this

ohp

nautilus pullover

pulldown

leg press

chest cross.

B)

leg extension

hammer row

weighted negative dips

deadlifts.


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## marso

Joe, have a read of this as well..

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/getting-started/58641-high-intensity-terms-old-article-mine.html


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## Cheese

Advertising your own work i see.

It was a good read and i've repped you accordingly mate.


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## Pritch30099

I've got HIT the mike mentzer way book and its fantastic. I was always a very strong believer less can never be better but now im sold. It makes perfect logic and im taking his advice truly on board.


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## B-GJOE

Bump!

Right guys, here is the plan. I am just starting my 2nd week of a layoff, my body needed it, and I am enjoying it, eating crap, and being pretty normal, getting a bit fat too.

I am currently half way through 'Body by Science' and got 'The Wisdom of Mike Mentzer' and 'High Intensity Training The Mike Mentzer Way' on standby. Plan to finish them all this week. Also got an interesting book called 'Strength Training Anatomy' Just to complete my science lession on how the muscle work.

I am going to choose a very simple plan. Something like the 'Body of Science' Big 5 workout. 5 Exercises 1 set of each, super slow mo movement, to failure at about 90 seconds time under resistance. Once a week. That will work out at about 15 minutes every 7 days in the Gym.

The reason I am going to choose the simplest of plans is because I am not a chicken sh!t who is affraid to test things to the max. The only way to see if less is more, is to truely do less. I think doing a half hearted experiment (some principles lobbed into my current regime) wouldn't achieve anything.

I plan to do an 8 week run, and run a journal on this forum. Covering diet, training, body measurements etc.

I will be doing this Natty also, with very minimal supplementation.

Debating theory on a forum is one thing, having the balls to test the theory is something else.

So there you have it, for those of you affraid to try, you can follow my up and coming journal, and together we will see what happens.

I plan to go to the gym this Saturday coming to get a feel for the weights I need to be handling, as no doubt it will be much less than traditional type of rep and set construction.

Then the following Saturday will be Workout 1 of 8.

I love this experimenting stuff, I read about Keto end of 2008, and experimented with it for 7 months and won tall class lincs. Now it's time to find the best way to build strength and size. FFS I've had 17½" Bi's for too long now, time to move up a notch, for me lots of drugs isn't my way.

I'm waffling now, kind of spewing up on the keyboard so to speak. So time to submit this post, and look forward to the up and coming Journal.


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## B-GJOE

Bumpy Bump!


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## essexboy

Good luck Joe.I do the big five myself.the most important thing i can tell you is PERFECT form, especially when its starts getting tough.Your subconcious will do everything to try and make it easier, remember this, it doesnt want change!! good luck.ill be watching closely.


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## Guest

Cheese said:


> Advertising your own work i see.
> 
> It was a good read and i've repped you accordingly mate.


 Well i am glad you approve of Marso's work :thumb: .....lol

Sounds good Joe. I will be interested to see how you get on with super slow. Personally i disagree with superslow and MM certainly did not have his guys doing superslow as found in some HIT theories around on the net. I am of course talking about 10 second positive and negatives, science has proved that to be rubbish. However 3 seconds up 3 second down with a full 1 second contraction would work very well perhaps thats what you mean with superslow.

In order for you to give any sort of accurate account of this training you will have to do it for at least 6 months IMO. Because at first your body will change purely due to adjusting to the new work load. Plus you will not be able to train all out for quite some time.....the body needs to be trained to do this just like any other thing.

I suggest you add in DC stretching but that is up to you. Personally i have found the stretching to be a great aid when doing very low volume.

Personally the lowest i have gone on volume is two days per week training and I stopped doing this for the simple reason that my body can handle a little more than that even with out drugs. Currently i do 3 days per week. Under this and i find my self gaining too much fat.

I like your attitude its very all or nothing


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## B-GJOE

essexboy said:


> Good luck Joe.I do the big five myself.the most important thing i can tell you is PERFECT form, especially when its starts getting tough.Your subconcious will do everything to try and make it easier, remember this, it doesnt want change!! good luck.ill be watching closely.


Form is not a problem for me, I am big on correct form already.


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## B-GJOE

Con said:


> Well i am glad you approve of Marso's work :thumb: .....lol
> 
> Sounds good Joe. I will be interested to see how you get on with super slow. Personally i disagree with superslow and MM certainly did not have his guys doing superslow as found in some HIT theories around on the net. I am of course talking about 10 second positive and negatives, science has proved that to be rubbish. However 3 seconds up 3 second down with a full 1 second contraction would work very well perhaps thats what you mean with superslow.
> 
> In order for you to give any sort of accurate account of this training you will have to do it for at least 6 months IMO. Because at first your body will change purely due to adjusting to the new work load. Plus you will not be able to train all out for quite some time.....the body needs to be trained to do this just like any other thing.
> 
> I suggest you add in DC stretching but that is up to you. Personally i have found the stretching to be a great aid when doing very low volume.
> 
> Personally the lowest i have gone on volume is two days per week training and I stopped doing this for the simple reason that my body can handle a little more than that even with out drugs. Currently i do 3 days per week. Under this and i find my self gaining too much fat.
> 
> I like your attitude its very all or nothing


Well I conclude that only 3 things can happen.

1. I maintain

2. I gain

3. I lose

Scenario 1 will mean that I will be achieving what I am already doing with 5 hours a week.

Scenario 2. Mega!!!

Scenario 3. I adjust and gain again. You learn more from your mistakes than from your successes.


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## B-GJOE

My diet during the experiment will be fairly low carb, moderate fat and protein.


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## Guest

B|GJOE said:


> Well I conclude that only 3 things can happen.
> 
> 1. I maintain
> 
> 2. I gain
> 
> 3. I lose
> 
> Scenario 1 will mean that I will be achieving what I am already doing with 5 hours a week.
> 
> Scenario 2. Mega!!!
> 
> Scenario 3. I adjust and gain again. You learn more from your mistakes than from your successes.


 Great attitude and what better a time to try it than when you are not putting chemicals into your body ( a time where you should have your ideal training already mapped out).

Do please keep this updated because this truly interests me.


----------



## jw007

I like Heavy duty principles, But I dont think they work for every body

Nearest I have got

I do one exercise and 3-4 heavy working sets (warm ups 1st)

and do one body part every 9 days

Ie

*monday* bench press 4 sets, bicep curls 2 sets

*wed* squats 3 sets

*fri* DL 3 sets

*monday* military press 3 sets

CGBP 2 sets

Thats as little as I have found works for me

Not sure barve enough just to do 1 working set tho

Be very interested


----------



## hilly

me 2 as i am going to do something similar next year.


----------



## B-GJOE

I havn't chosen the exact workout yet, but it will almost certainly be 1 workout per week.

I've still got my 2 MM books to read yet.


----------



## Cheese

I'm subcribed. I'm interested to see how you get on.


----------



## B-GJOE

Cheese said:


> I'm subcribed. I'm interested to see how you get on.


It will be September 26 that I start.


----------



## BigDom86

interested to see how you do. maybe could weekly update with pics to see? if its possible. i know your already in good shape anyway


----------



## B-GJOE

BigDom86 said:


> interested to see how you do. maybe could weekly update with pics to see? if its possible.* i know your already in good shape anyway*


Not now mate. Put on 2½ stone since show.


----------



## marso

Thanks for the acknowledgement and reps:beer:

A few things:

Going to once per week on a consolidated routine is (in my opinion and 20 years of using HIT principles) a mistake, many who have gone this route (myself included at one point) found they continually get stronger but do not see a corresponding increase in size, this is due many factors, but if you consider that muscle is a metabolically demanding process then the body will always look for the most cost effective manner in which to adapt (as per S.A.I.D) what happens with consolidated routines is that the gains come more via the neurological system....ie: you get more skilled or your muscle become more effecient at lifting heavier weights thereby sparing itself the metabolic process of making new muscle tissue.. (this is usually a source of great debate on any HIT sites by the way)

Try training twice per week or once every 3-4 days, do not be governed by the calender..

In relation to Superslow, science (specifically what science by the way?) has not refuted that slow reps are rubbish, what HAS been shown by various studies, is that there is no real significant difference in muscular loading when using a rep cadence (not speed as this is different) of 3/3 to that of 10/10, also 10/10 is merely a guideline anything from 6-10 seconds for both positive and negative is fine, 10/10 was used as its easy to remember and is a nice round number its also slow enough to prevent segmenting, ie: a nice slow movement instead of a series of jerks when attempting to move slowly under load...

Mentzer when upon reading the Ultimate Exercise Bulletin #1 was full of praise and its author a Dr Doug McGuff, who runs and practises SUPERSLOW..

As per GAS, (General Adaptation Syndrome) you will see results from HIT *within days,* not weeks or months, nothing else is physiologically possible, the body does not wait and decide whether or not it should adapt to a stressor, and then at some point along the line make its mind up..

HIT and the principles which govern will work for *EVERYONE *as we are all governed by these same principles, it us usually the MIS application which leads those who try it and thus state it doesn't work for them or is not for everyone..

Anyone that is interested in HIT should in my opinion check out the I.A.R.T and more specifically the writings of Brian Johnston.

A few links

http://www.ultimate-exercise.com/

http://www.exercisecertification.com

http://www.teamhitonline.com/

Also and again apologies for what appears blantant self promotion, but this is merely so show I do and have practised what I preach and have walked the walk when it comes to HIT

Have a read of this:

http://www.teamhitonline.com/uploads/paul.pdf

My current routines (which is not fixed) is usually this

All done for 3-5 reps @ 10/10 cadence to failure..I mainly use machines unless stated otherwise:

Seated Leverage Shoulder Press

Seated Leverage Row

Seated Chest Press Or Dips

Seated Supinated Pulldown

Lying Leg Curl

Leg Press Or Tru Squat

Workout B:

Leg Ext

Standing Leg Curl

Calf Raise

Chest Fly

Lateral Raise

Rear Delts Raise or Torso Row (like a reverse pec deck)

Bicep Curl

Tricep Ext

I'll sometimes do 30 seconds up and 30 seconds down chin followed immediately by curls

and the same for Dips followed by Tricep Extensions.


----------



## B-GJOE

Thanks for your valuable input, I still havn't decided on my routine yet. Still reading my books. I'll post my intentions once decided.


----------



## marso

Joe, don't over think the structure of a routine, as it is merely a series of exercises in a specific order, you are starting to fall into the HIT trap of over analysing every detail in looking for the perfect routine and will end up spinning you wheels


----------



## marso

Here is another very useful link:

http://arthurjonesexercise.com/


----------



## B-GJOE

marso said:


> Joe, don't over think the structure of a routine, as it is merely a series of exercises in a specific order, you are starting to fall into the HIT trap of over analysing every detail in looking for the perfect routine and will end up spinning you wheels


Over analysing is not a HIT trap I am falling into it is my own trap. I love to analyse, study, and feed my head with stuff. I also like Mike Mentzers philosophical mind. He was obviously an objectivist judging by the amount of Ayn Rand quotes in his work. I read the entire works of Ayn Rand once.

The reason I haven't chosen a workout yet is because I haven't yet seen my options. I first read body by science which was basically a single routine, with a few HIT techniques thrown into the mix. I haven't got to the routines in Mike Mentzers book, only read the chapters on the 7 principles, and the intensity increasing techniques.

I have always trained high intensity, but probably been doing too many sets. I always conduct exercises slowly with good form, full range of motion, and every set to positive failure.

So for me it is really just a reduction in volume, and frequency. Although I say I do every set to positive failure as a matter course, there is always that phsychological factor that comes into play. 'I've got another 10 sets to do' which may have been preventing true failure from a psychological stand point.

So my thinking is that if I reduce the volume I may push myself harder on the fewer sets I'll be doing. And by reducing the frequency I will allow myself more growth time.

I thin in all likelihood I'll end up doing an A/B split training Wednesday & Saturday.

I also find it a little ironic that you say I am over analysing yet you keep posting up more and more links for me to read. Surely this will increase my analytical hunger.


----------



## marso

B|GJOE said:


> Over analysing is not a HIT trap I am falling into it is my own trap. I love to analyse, study, and feed my head with stuff. I also like Mike Mentzers philosophical mind. He was obviously an objectivist judging by the amount of Ayn Rand quotes in his work. I read the entire works of Ayn Rand once.


Me too, and I'm always looking for new things to learn in regards to exercise science its why I have over 30 books on the subject and have written a few articles as this was a way of me getting my thoughts down in writing...

Mentzer was indeed an objectivist, as am I....



> The reason I haven't chosen a workout yet is because I haven't yet seen my options. I first read body by science which was basically a single routine, with a few HIT techniques thrown into the mix. I haven't got to the routines in Mike Mentzers book, only read the chapters on the 7 principles, and the intensity increasing techniques.


The links I posted should give you a broader understanding on the principles which govern HIT as in my opinion Mentzers Heavy Duty does have some flaws, Body By Science is a step in the right direction, you may want to look at Jreps or Zone Training too...



> I have always trained high intensity, but probably been doing too many sets. I always conduct exercises slowly with good form, full range of motion, and every set to positive failure.
> 
> So for me it is really just a reduction in volume, and frequency. Although I say I do every set to positive failure as a matter course, there is always that phsychological factor that comes into play. 'I've got another 10 sets to do' which may have been preventing true failure from a psychological stand point.


You've just discovered the secret of HIT! In that intensity is also governed by volitional and as well as physical effort...



> So my thinking is that if I reduce the volume I may push myself harder on the fewer sets I'll be doing. And by reducing the frequency I will allow myself more growth time.


 Correct...



> I thin in all likelihood I'll end up doing an A/B split training Wednesday & Saturday.
> 
> I also find it a little ironic that you say I am over analysing yet you keep posting up more and more links for me to read. Surely this will increase my analytical hunger.


Lol, that's a fair point, but at least I'm feeding it the right food!!!


----------



## B-GJOE

Nice to meet a fellow objectivist. I must admit though, it has been several years since I read Ayn's entire works, and it was especially hard reading. The novels 'Fountainhead' and 'Atlas Shrugged' are fantastic novels. Also enjoyed 'We the living' however, I remember really struggling with 'Objectivist Epistemology'. I think quantum physics is probably easier to read, and i've tried a bit of that too.

I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.


----------



## Gerry_bhoy

Joe are you planning on doing warm up sets before your one set failure for the big 5?

McGruff didn't seem to do them in his vid.

I think im going to try the big 5 myself (might even split it in two over 7-8 days if I replace the seated rows with deads but ill see).

Did my first HIT session yesterday, near killed me


----------



## essexboy

Gerry_bhoy said:


> Joe are you planning on doing warm up sets before your one set failure for the big 5?
> 
> McGruff didn't seem to do them in his vid.
> 
> I think im going to try the big 5 myself (might even split it in two over 7-8 days if I replace the seated rows with deads but ill see).
> 
> Did my first HIT session yesterday, near killed me


Warm ups are for poofs Gerry.


----------



## marso

Warm ups are a personal choice;

Some say a warm is required as it raises core temperature and sets you up neurologically for what you are about to attempt

Others say that if one is lifting in a smooth and controlled manner for a sufficient time under load, then the preceding reps prior to an all out attempt upon reaching failure is all the warm up you need...


----------



## Gerry_bhoy

Been doing 5 mins on the treadmill to get my blood going at the start of sessions lately. Ill do about 4 reps at about 75% weight per exercise then my set to failure a min later.

I fcuking hate warm up sets anyway


----------



## Phez

sorry to just jump into the convo like this but I was considering using this HIT method and was wondering what you r opinions are:

perform 1 compound exercise to failure at 10 reps e.g. bench press, drop the weight by 20 percent and do another set to failure, increase the weight by 20 percent from the first weight and have a spotter help with the lifting part of the exercise while you concentrate on the lowering and perform to failure immediately after this follow up by an isolation move for ten reps to failure e.g. dumbell flyes

An example plan would be

Mon-Chest,Triceps

Tuesday-Legs,Abs

Wed-Rest

Thurs-Back, Biceps

Friday-Shoulders

Weekend-Rest

any opinions or ideas would be very much appreciated

thank you


----------



## Guest

Well i love to discuss the idea behind HIT and the whole philosophy of it BUT in the real world there are no top bodybuilders or any other kind of athlete for that matter using this superslow technique only.

I mean by all means go ahead and do this but explosive lifting recruits more fast twitch fibers than slow fibers and this is fact not fiction. Fast twitch fibers grow the largest so make your own decision to which way you want to lift.

Personally i have been off gear for 12 weeks and it looks like i will be taking a lot longer off as my hdl levels are not good currently. I have been thinking about various training techniques so now i am going to try whole body work outs. Growth is largely systemic thus to me it makes sense to train the body as a whole when your only goal is maintance.


----------



## BigDom86

are you starting a new log cornelius?


----------



## Guest

BigDom86 said:


> are you starting a new log cornelius?


 Perhaps....i will make a home log detailling starting weight, diet and work outs. I will do this for 8 weeks straight (no way can i stick to any thing longer than 8 weeks straight!). If i am happy with how i look and things went well i will post up the log if i feel like a skinny cnut i wont:lol:

My weight is very low currently as i have been eating very little lately i weighed in at 220lb on the nose this am but i was told by some guys in the gym who compete that i look 4 weeks out (not true as my legs are fatter than my upper body but upper is lean currently). I honestly have not even had a multi vitamin in weeks and weeks. Protein has been around 200grams for a long while now. It is truly amazing how little food the body really needs most people grossly over eat.

Any way this is not my thread so enough about me

P.S. Kudos on spelling my name correctly mate few people do!


----------



## BigDom86

go back to powerlifting or strongman training please!!! its where you belong!

now back on topic of thread, very interesting. i couldnt mentally drop to that volume though lol not yet anyway


----------



## Gerry_bhoy

Con said:


> Well i love to discuss the idea behind HIT and the whole philosophy of it BUT in the real world there are no top bodybuilders or any other kind of athlete for that matter using this superslow technique only.
> 
> I mean by all means go ahead and do this but explosive lifting recruits more fast twitch fibers than slow fibers and this is fact not fiction. Fast twitch fibers grow the largest so make your own decision to which way you want to lift.
> 
> Personally i have been off gear for 12 weeks and it looks like i will be taking a lot longer off as my hdl levels are not good currently. I have been thinking about various training techniques so now i am going to try whole body work outs. Growth is largely systemic thus to me it makes sense to train the body as a whole when your only goal is maintance.


Although im excited about this and facinated by the theory behind it, its not something that I will be doing exclusively. In 4-5 months time Id imagine ill change back to a push/pull/legs 5x5 then back to HIT after a similar period


----------



## Guest

Gerry_bhoy said:


> Although im excited about this and facinated by the theory behind it, its not something that I will be doing exclusively. In 4-5 months time Id imagine ill change back to a push/pull/legs 5x5 then back to HIT after a similar period


 Don't get me wrong it is a superb routine! Also i am huge fan of MM and all HIT disciples if you ever saw my book collection you would see why:thumbup1:

However, i am an athlete i compete in various iron sports such as bodybuilding and powerlifting and thus i have to make sure i am training to get the desired results NOT only train in a fashion that i enjoy and endulges my philosophy regarding life.

Reducing your overall volume and learning how to put full effort into your sets is the number one most important principle of HIT. 99% of people have no idea how to perform a correct set to failure. Learn this and you will sky rocket your gains!


----------



## B-GJOE

Nice to see my thread coming back to life. When I started this thread the HIT philosophy was new, but due to my nature I've been reading lots of HIT stuff, some pro, some con. So now I am none the wiser on what to do. I am now thinking of doing a 3 way split, training every tue & sat. So each routine every 10 days, but I will be probably do 3 sets instead of the recommended HIT 1. But each set will be to failure. Not full decided yet, will probably change by next saturday when I start. As for now, just had 2 weeks out, so will be going into the gym today to do a full body workout, not too heavy, just limbering up ready for the the new routine starting next saturday.


----------



## hertderg

Interesting stuff Joe , I'll be following your progress from next week for sure.

Off to read some of the links from Marso as I'm very interested in this method.


----------



## marso

Con said:


> Well i love to discuss the idea behind HIT and the whole philosophy of it BUT in the real world there are no top bodybuilders or any other kind of athlete for that matter using this superslow technique only.


This is an age old argument, but it does not prove anything, as many if not all top bodybuilders are a by -product of their training and genetics , many don't have a clue on how best to train one only has to look at the training DVD's for evidence of this....



> I mean by all means go ahead and do this but explosive lifting recruits more fast twitch fibers than slow fibers and this is fact not fiction. Fast twitch fibers grow the largest so make your own decision to which way you want to lift.


In order for this statement to be a fact, there can be no evidence which contradicts it, otherwise its merely a hypothesis, as it turns out, fast twitch fibers are recruited last ( via the size principle of recruitment) the main factors are *high intensity of effort, using an appropriate level of resistance and within an optimal time under load*. Speed of movement does not more recruit more of the fast twitch fibers, and yes there is scientific evidence which supports this.

(Palmieri 1983, Sale 1986, Wilmore & Costill 1988), Devries 1980, Wescott 1987)..to name a few..

They do have the highest potential for growth, as per their characteristics they have the ability to to produce the greatest amount of force they also fatigue very quickly and require extended rest periods...

Lifting fast, ballisticically, explosively or whatever you want to call it, increases force rates which can exceed the tensile limit of tendons and muscles resulting in injuries and tears, reduces muscular loading via increased momentum..

As stated anything from a 3/3 cadence is deemed slow enough to ensure even muscular loading and reduce the possibility of injury..



> Personally i have been off gear for 12 weeks and it looks like i will be taking a lot longer off as my hdl levels are not good currently. I have been thinking about various training techniques so now i am going to try whole body work outs. Growth is largely systemic thus to me it makes sense to train the body as a whole when your only goal is maintance.


A wise choice considering your decision to go natural...


----------



## marso

One last thing and just for a bit of fun :cool2: I train HIT using slow reps but here is some proof that it can does indeed build strength which can then be demonstrated..me flipping an 800lbs tire.

l2cx7rdXz14[/MEDIA]]


----------



## marso

This guy ain't exactly small and trains using slow exclusively too..he is being spotted by Doug McGuff of Ultimate Exercise and Body By Science fame..

This is a true reflection of what a high intensity super slow workout should look like..


----------



## Guest

marso said:


> This is an age old argument, but it does not prove anything, as many if not all top bodybuilders are a by -product of their training and genetics , many don't have a clue on how best to train one only has to look at the training DVD's for evidence of this....
> 
> Very true that is why i included other athletes not only the ultra genetically gifted bodybuilders but also strength athletes and your run of the mill athlete like a rubgy player. Now if if strength and size goes hand in hand does it not make sense to train in the manner that makes you lift the most weight because that after all is the most strenght.( of course i disinclude lifts such as olympic lifts where technique and momentum have a massive role to play.)
> 
> In order for this statement to be a fact, there can be no evidence which contradicts it, otherwise its merely a hypothesis, as it turns out, fast twitch fibers are recruited last ( via the size principle of recruitment) the main factors are *high intensity of effort, using an appropriate level of resistance and within an optimal time under load*. Speed of movement does not more recruit more of the fast twitch fibers, and yes there is scientific evidence which supports this.
> 
> (Palmieri 1983, Sale 1986, Wilmore & Costill 1988), Devries 1980, Wescott 1987)..to name a few..
> 
> They do have the highest potential for growth, as per their characteristics they have the ability to to produce the greatest amount of force they also fatigue very quickly and require extended rest periods...
> 
> Lifting fast, ballisticically, explosively or whatever you want to call it, increases force rates which can exceed the tensile limit of tendons and muscles resulting in injuries and tears, reduces muscular loading via increased momentum..
> 
> Ok, this seems like a fair point but then how do you explain a 1 rep max? A marathon runner will naturally have far less potential for a big 1 rep max in any lift due to mainly type two muscle fibers now a top class sprinter who mainly has type one fibers will have a far higher one rep max. Thus if it is not down to the fast twitch fibers what is it down to?
> 
> As stated anything from a 3/3 cadence is deemed slow enough to ensure even muscular loading and reduce the possibility of injury..
> 
> A wise choice considering your decision to go natural...


Impressive tire lift, i do a bit of that stuff my self and it certainly is harder than it looks.


----------



## marso

Another good friend of mine, Doug Holland @ his Intelligent Exercise gym, practising what he preaches, that being super slow..

Doug is about 5ft 5 and 150lbs and can deadlift well in excess of 500lbs when he chooses too..


----------



## Guest

Now those chins ups are impressive!!!


----------



## B-GJOE

I went to the gym today after 2 weeks off, just did a whole body workout but did some HIT type training.

Leg Ext with long pause at contraction followed by leg press slow.

Bb flies followed by incline press, all slow and controlled

seated row

bicep barbell curl followed by palms up pulldown

side laterals followed by press.

calf raises

scull crushers followed by dips

I was surprised at the deep deep pain i felt in the muscles. and the weights i was handling, much lower than normal.


----------



## marso

Originally Posted by *marso* 

This is an age old argument, but it does not prove anything, as many if not all top bodybuilders are a by -product of their training and genetics , many don't have a clue on how best to train one only has to look at the training DVD's for evidence of this....

Very true that is why i included other athletes not only the ultra genetically gifted bodybuilders but also strength athletes and your run of the mill athlete like a rubgy player. Now if if strength and size goes hand in hand does it not make sense to train in the manner that makes you lift the most weight because that after all is the most strenght.( of course i disinclude lifts such as olympic lifts where technique and momentum have a massive role to play.)

What is to say that one has to lift fast to lift the most weight? And if the goal is hypertrophy then the focus should be how the weight is lifted not simply how much weight is lifted..

For sure there has to a sufficient level of load and this has to be progressive ( as per the progressive overload principle) so one's training should be specific ( as per the principle of specifity) for example if one is training to lift in a powerlifting meet, the as the contest draws closer then one has to train in a manner which is specifically the same as contest conditions, but body-building or general training for visual appearance does not require this and hence one should train in a manner which fits these requirements in a safe and productive manner...

Powerlifting, Rugby etc all require specific SKILLS which to be practised but this should be kept separate from the general strength training in the gym..

IE: Build strength don;t demonstrate it..

One can get a lot stronger without a corresponding increase in size so size and strength are related in a linear fashion..



> In order for this statement to be a fact, there can be no evidence which contradicts it, otherwise its merely a hypothesis, as it turns out, fast twitch fibers are recruited last ( via the size principle of recruitment) the main factors are *high intensity of effort, using an appropriate level of resistance and within an optimal time under load*. Speed of movement does not more recruit more of the fast twitch fibers, and yes there is scientific evidence which supports this.
> 
> (Palmieri 1983, Sale 1986, Wilmore & Costill 1988), Devries 1980, Wescott 1987)..to name a few..
> 
> They do have the highest potential for growth, as per their characteristics they have the ability to to produce the greatest amount of force they also fatigue very quickly and require extended rest periods...
> 
> Lifting fast, ballisticically, explosively or whatever you want to call it, increases force rates which can exceed the tensile limit of tendons and muscles resulting in injuries and tears, reduces muscular loading via increased momentum..
> 
> Ok, this seems like a fair point but then how do you explain a 1 rep max? A marathon runner will naturally have far less potential for a big 1 rep max in any lift due to mainly type two muscle fibers now a top class sprinter who mainly has type one fibers will have a far higher one rep max. Thus if it is not down to the fast twitch fibers what is it down to?


What is there to explain? A 1 rep max is merely a demonstration of strength using a specific load, nothing more nothing less, also if one reduces ROM a bit here and there, and raise the hips or joints to increase leverage and thus increases there 1RM does these mean they infact got stronger?

There are in fact three muscle fibres types, Slow, Mixed and Fast, sprinters are made that way as they do possess a higher number of fast twitch fibers, they also posses a higher level of *neurological efficiency *(which gives them the ability to recruit a higher number of these muscle fibres) neurological efficiency, explains why you sometimes see a smaller guy outlifting a larger more muscled guy,, so having an abundance of fast twitch fibers is no guarantee of great strength, and last but not least sprinters posses the genetic traits in terms of limb length etc which allow them to excel at their chosen sport, consider Jamaica one of the smallest islands with limited money & resources for training athletes, yet they continue to produce the best sprinters, against the likes of the USA and Russia who have a larger gene pool and training resources,...Kenya and Ethopia produce the best long distance runners...coincidence?


----------



## Guest

Fair enough Paul you certainly have a way with words and make some superb points.

I have just finished reading your PDF file on your own training and found it to be very well written and informative!


----------



## BigDom86

thanks for the videos marso. really good


----------



## marso

Con said:


> Fair enough Paul you certainly have a way with words and make some superb points.
> 
> I have just finished reading your PDF file on your own training and found it to be very well written and informative!


Thanks Con, fair play and all due respect to you mate you are a well rounded and very knowledgeable guy yourself, and your physique is outstanding..

:beer:


----------



## marso

Con said:


> Don't get me wrong it is a superb routine! Also i am huge fan of MM and all HIT disciples if you ever saw my book collection you would see why:thumbup1:
> 
> However, i am an athlete i compete in various iron sports such as bodybuilding and powerlifting and *thus i have to make sure i am training to get the desired results NOT only train in a fashion that i enjoy and endulges my philosophy regarding life.*
> 
> Reducing your overall volume and learning how to put full effort into your sets is the number one most important principle of HIT. 99% of people have no idea how to perform a correct set to failure. Learn this and you will sky rocket your gains!


I somehow missed this post, its spot on especially the point which I have highlighted...far too many do not follow this and if they did there results would be much much better..

Nice post Con..


----------



## B-GJOE

well i may have to delay my HIT training due to injury. I fell ar5e over tit on Saturday afternoon, whilst playing with my niece, and my elbow broke my fall, giving me a nice bruised and swollen elbow, that hurts like sh1t. gutted!!


----------



## Rudedog

Hope you have a speedy recovery mate


----------



## B-GJOE

Rudedog said:


> Hope you have a speedy recovery mate


I'm hoping to not have to delay. I think if I start on legs Saturday, and do chest back following Tuesday I will be OK. Elbow is still slightly swollen and bruised, but pain is easing, been resting and using ibuprofen gel.


----------



## Gza1

Hay big joe so glad your started this thread, been on holiday for 2wks and read mikes book and decided to give his principles ago, as i feel im over training, training religeously 4 days a week. What routine you are you going to run? Chest/back, legs, delts/arms? The A and B workouts con posted look interesting also unsure what to do, if i did the A and B routine it would be a huge drop in volume for me


----------



## B-GJOE

Gza1 said:


> Hay big joe so glad your started this thread, been on holiday for 2wks and read mikes book and decided to give his principles ago, as i feel im over training, training religeously 4 days a week. What routine you are you going to run? Chest/back, legs, delts/arms? The A and B workouts con posted look interesting also unsure what to do, if i did the A and B routine it would be a huge drop in volume for me


I am doing the workout from HIT The Mike Mentzer Way.

1. Chest / Back

2. Legs / Abs

3. Arms / Shoulders

4. as 2 then back to 1

Just 1 set per body part, with pre-exhausts on chest, back and quads.

Did my first leg session yesterday, can't believe I've got aching legs today from just 1 set, I think I am going to get positives from this experiment. Will be back later to put up my diet, training results, etc later on.


----------



## BigDom86

what did your whole leg session look like yesterday?


----------



## B-GJOE

BigDom86 said:


> what did your whole leg session look like yesterday?


Leg extension to pre exhaust, about 5 seconds up hold for 2 seconds 5 seconds down

no rest

Leg Press 5 seconds up 5 down, not quite lockout to prevent the muscle relaxing. Knees to the armpit stretch at the bottom.

got 11 and half on extensions

12 on leg press. (Only 190kg) normally do 370

13 reps on calf raises, again 5 up 5 down and really pushed it hard at the top of movement for hold of 2

and that was it!


----------



## big_jim_87

how long did it take you?


----------



## Gza1

Im stil trying to decide wether to run the same heavy duty routine or try and put one together my self, with the routine your doing how many days rest are you having between workouts? Also are you doing 525 on all exercises? Nice leg session btw i bet 5 sec statics on legs kill!


----------



## essexboy

B|GJOE said:


> Leg extension to pre exhaust, about 5 seconds up hold for 2 seconds 5 seconds down
> 
> no rest
> 
> Leg Press 5 seconds up 5 down, not quite lockout to prevent the muscle relaxing. Knees to the armpit stretch at the bottom.
> 
> got 11 and half on extensions
> 
> 12 on leg press. (Only 190kg) normally do 370
> 
> 13 reps on calf raises, again 5 up 5 down and really pushed it hard at the top of movement for hold of 2
> 
> and that was it!


Feel your pain Joe..........


----------



## essexboy

Gza1 said:


> Im stil trying to decide wether to run the same heavy duty routine or try and put one together my self, with the routine your doing how many days rest are you having between workouts? Also are you doing 525 on all exercises? Nice leg session btw i bet 5 sec statics on legs kill!


Gaz, its not the exercises per se that make the routine effective.Its the application, of the underlying principles.some may find that the pre-ex cycle to be too demanding, and result in overtraining.as long as your routine is rounded, and not excessive,exercise selection is best gauged by personal choice. bear in mind however the hardest exercises are the most effective, their very nature being the most debilitating for the system.


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## Inggasson

Isn't this the kind of training that prematurely ended Dorian's career?


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## essexboy

Inggasson said:


> Isn't this the kind of training that prematurely ended Dorian's career?


No.Bad form did.Using the 5/2/5(correct) protocol that Joes is, will not result in injury.Ballistic (throwing)training is the best route to injury.


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## Inggasson

Fair enough


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## B-GJOE

If I remember correctly Dorian said on record fairly recently that it was his bad form that gave him the injuries, and he also said that HIT is still the best type of training there is.

I thought is was a combination of injury and excessive requirements of gear that ended his career.


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## Guest

B|GJOE said:


> If I remember correctly Dorian said on record fairly recently that it was his bad form that gave him the injuries, and he also said that HIT is still the best type of training there is.
> 
> I thought is was a combination of injury and excessive requirements of gear that ended his career.


No what finished his career was the fact that he still trained like this a few weeks out from a contest when his body fat and water levels were too low to deal with this kind of training.

Nice looking work out by the way. Certainly takes some getting used to!


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## B-GJOE

10 minutes to complete a workout and only 2 workouts a week, this is going to give me so much time back to pursue other interesting activities.

Even if this sort of training doesn't workout for me, I have to admit that I really admire Mr Mentzer and his work ethics, philosophy, and approach to life and training. A real breath of fresh air. RIP

A man after my own heart so to speak.


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## essexboy

This is a passge form one of the last interviews MM did.one of my favourites.

" I firmly believe that, in terms of practical necessity, I've "perfected" high-intensity training theory and application. I started out training my clients using Arthur Jones' application of 12-20 sets per workout with my clients. No one made progress, and many regressed. I knew the problem wasn't undertraining; it had to be overtraining. So I cut the sets back to seven to nine sets three days a week and some made minimal progress for while, but hit a plateau soon thereafter. At this point, I was in a quandary. Again, I knew the problem wasn't undertaining, but, how could it be that less training was required?

It actually kinda scared me for a brief time. How could it be that I was discovering a radically different application of high-intensity than Jones and everyone else? At one time I actually thought Jones was infallible, that he was so incredibly smart,he had to be right. He was basically correct with the theory: To be productive, exercise must be intense, brief and infrequent. Where he was wrong was on the application of the theory. I kept reducing the volume and frequency of my clients training until, finally, they were performing only two to four sets per workout once every four to seven, and in some cases every 10 - 14 days. The volume and frequency requirements of any given individual depend on his innate recovery ability, with individual recovery ability, like all genetic traits, being expressed across a very broad range."


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## marso

Try this for a leg cycle:

Leg Press> Leg Ext>Squat....all done back to back with no rest, you'll have to reduce your normal squat weight by about 40%.

also try Leg Curl>Stiff Legged Deadlift

And Calf Raise 1& 1/4's. To perform this, raise into the fully contracted position, then come down a quarter of the way, then raise back up into the fully contracted position, then go down into a full stretch, repeat until failure...


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## B-GJOE

As promised guys my new training regime started yesterday, and my diet starts tomorrow, just spent the last hour prepping food etc.

Firstly some stats

Current Body Wight 224lbs (16st dead)

Body Fat 13.6%

Thigh 26"

Calf 17"

Bicep 17¼"

Neck 17"

Waist 36"

Chest 48½"

Supplements will be a multivitamin, Creatine, glutamine, bcaa, eaa PWO, and protein powder.

Juice None this is a Natty experiment. Been clean now since my show 18th Jul

Training

Will train saturdays and (tuesdays or wednesdays). All exercises will be performed in strict form 5 seconds up, 5 seconds down, and where applicable hold peak contraction for 2 seconds.

Work Out 1

*Chest & Back*

1 x Flat Flies 6-10 Reps

No Rest

1 x Incline Bench Press 6-10 Reps

1 x Straight Arm Pull Down 6-10 Reps

No rest

1 x Palms up Close Grip Pulldown 6-10 reps

1 x Deadlift 6-10 reps

Workout 2

*Legs & Abs*

1 x Leg Extensions 12-20 Reps

No Rest

1 x Leg Press 12-20 Reps

1 x Calf Raise 12-20 Reps

1 x Situps 12-20 Reps

Workout 3

*Shoulders & Arms*

1 x Side Laterals 6-10 Reps

1 x Bent Over Laterals 6-10 Reps

1 x Straight Bar Curls 6-10 Reps

No rest

1 x Palms Up Pulldown 6-10 Reps

1 x V Bar tricep pushdowns 6-10 Reps

No Res

1 x Dips 3-5 Reps

The order is 12321232 and so on.

Started on workout 2 and will be going to workout 1 next. Only did this because I train at 2 gyms and the weekend gym has the better leg equipment.

*Diet:*

Meal 1:

80g Oats

30g Palatinose

300ml Skimmed Milk

300g Raw Whole Egg

10g Fish Oil

Meal 2:

150g Chicken Breast

300g Sweet Potato

150g Broccoli

5g Fish Oil

Meal 3:

Desert (See below)

Meal 4:

300g Whole Raw Egg

Meal 5:

Desert (See below)

Meal 6:

50g Peanut Butter

750g Gold Top Full Cream Jersey Milk

Desert:= 3 Tubs of Quark, 250g 90+ Protein, 240g Coconut Oil, 2 Packets of Sugar Free Jelly + Water. Mixed together and divided into 8 portions, left to set (Yum!)

Total Calories=3828

Protein 253g/1012cals

Carbs 208g/834cals

Fats 220g/1982cals (A lot of MCT's from coconut oil)

Calorie Percentages 26.44 Protein/21.78 Carbs/51.78 Fats

Diet Exceptions:

PWO 80g Dex, 10g BCAA, 10g EAA, 10g Glutamine, 10g Creatine.

McDonalds on Sunday Evenings

First Workout Results:

Leg Extension 135 x 11½ Reps

Leg Press 190 x 13 Reps

Calf Raise 106 x 11 Reps

Situps 9 Reps


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## hilly

looks very good joe will be interesting to follow ure progress.


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## Gerry_bhoy

Hows it coming along, Joe?

Lost the will to live during my session tonight. Torture.


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## Cheese

My HIT routine starts on Monday. I using a 3 routine split, training on Mondays and Thursdays.

I'm still ironing out the finer details of which excercise goes where. I might use your split from above Joe.

Out of interest would you do a full circuit with low weight to warm all of the muscles I plan on using and then do the circuit again HIT style? Or should I do warm up set followed by heavy set for each excercise?


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## Gerry_bhoy

Cheese said:


> My HIT routine starts on Monday. I using a 3 routine split, training on Mondays and Thursdays.
> 
> I'm still ironing out the finer details of which excercise goes where. I might use your split from above Joe.
> 
> Out of interest would you do a full circuit with low weight to warm all of the muscles I plan on using and then do the circuit again HIT style? Or should I do warm up set followed by heavy set for each excercise?


Covered earlier in the thread I believe mate (question I asked infact). Matter of choice.

Personally, Im doing the body by science full body and I don't do any warm up sets anymore. Just a 10 min stretch and light cardio to get the blood going.

I think the logic was that the reps up until failure were warm up enough.


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## Gerry_bhoy

Yep, page 5.


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## B-GJOE

Things went a bit to pot at the start of this week diet wise. The missus had an accident, and got taken into hospital Sun, Mon night, so had to take care of the kids, take time off work, and drive back and forth from hospital, so ate a bit more conveniently than laid out diet. Life has a funny way of screwing up plans. Anyway, diet back on track yesterday and today, and missus on the mend, but still being the house husband.

Last nights training not too good either, the elbow injury I got 12 days ago was niggling and it was back and chest. Got through it though.

Dumbell flies 25kg x 8

Incline Press 70kg x 4

Straight arm pulldown 80kg x 8

Reverse palms up pulldown 95kg x 6

Deadlift 120kg x 6

I don't know if these weights are any good for his type of training, but certainly less than I would normally do. Haven't done deads for years, but I did do a 250kg for 1 rep in jan this year as part of strongman thing they ran at the gym. Back exercises were good weights but a lot depends on the machine you are using imo. I used the cable cross over machine, but I don't think I would've done as much weight on the lat pulldown machine, someone else had that.

All muscles trained are aching today.

The most amusing thing was the look on peoples faces when I came in, lifted less than normal, and walked out within 15 minutes of entering the Gym. People at the gym expect to see me do volume and about an hour. I was chuckling to myself.


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## Gerry_bhoy

Nice. Was reading HIT the MM way last night. Sticking with the BBS big 5 at the moment but will look to encorporate some of the stuff MM covers later i.e. once positive failure is reached hold contracted position for so many secs then go to negative failure.

Joe do you find your forearms are giving way before anything else on the pull down when done at a slow speed? MM pointed that out in the book i believe to.


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## B-GJOE

Gerry_bhoy said:


> Joe do you find your forearms are giving way before anything else on the pull down when done at a slow speed? MM pointed that out in the book i believe to.


That'll be a resounding yes, but this is new, so I am sure they will adapt in time. I know that you are not doing deads, but they are even worse, even though i had straps, the pain was killing, and a slight slip on the strap and I nearly lost the bar.


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## marso

> The most amusing thing was the look on peoples faces when I came in, lifted less than normal, and walked out within 15 minutes of entering the Gym. People at the gym expect to see me do volume and about an hour. I was chuckling to myself


Yep, I get that all the time too, but I'm well used to it by now, I also get a lot of strange stares when I've done just two reps (@10/10 cadence) and most other people have done an entire set!! :thumb:

The forearm issue is down to the way you are performing them, you need to learn to pull from the elbow and not the hands...allow me to explain.

When starting the pulldown, initiate the movement by pulling from the elbow, try to imagine you are pushing down with the back of your arms, your hands should merely act as anchors, I start my supinated pulldowns with a lat shrug and then allow the arms to follow, you should find this will reduce the stress the feel in your forearms and hands, with HIT, you also need to learn to relax as much as possible outside muscles so they do not get brought into play...


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## Cheese

I gave HIT a go for the first time tonight... very strange, its going to take a while to get used to it. I'm starting properly on monday.

I noticed after doing bicep curls followed by tricep push down i got pins and needles in my hands, I asume ths is because all of the blood is going to the tris and isn't making its way down to my hands towards the end of the set.


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## Gerry_bhoy

marso said:


> Yep, I get that all the time too, but I'm well used to it by now, I also get a lot of strange stares when I've done just two reps (@10/10 cadence) and most other people have done an entire set!! :thumb:
> 
> The forearm issue is down to the way you are performing them, you need to learn to pull from the elbow and not the hands...allow me to explain.
> 
> When starting the pulldown, initiate the movement by pulling from the elbow, try to imagine you are pushing down with the back of your arms, your hands should merely act as anchors, I start my supinated pulldowns with a lat shrug and then allow the arms to follow, you should find this will reduce the stress the feel in your forearms and hands, with HIT, you also need to learn to relax as much as possible outside muscles so they do not get brought into play...


Cheers, Marso.

Was concerned that my back/bis weren't getting a good seeing to as it was my forearms that were causing failure.

They actually burn, and are pumped/swollen so much that yesterday I could only get through a few reps in the shoulder press. Was thinking of making the pull down my last exercise for the upper body, but ill try your form tips.

Another thing that gets a few looks is lifting with my mouth wide open and tongue almost out, panting like a dog to keep my BP down so I don't get a head ache - which I didn't get this week :thumbup1:


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## oasis

I got his final book High Intensity Training, he makes some wacky comparisons to my mind, but none the less it's a cracking read and I've certainly altered my split round as a result of reading this book, which as seen me go to a three day as opposed to a four. I have to admit at not having the corouge to follow it to the letter [meaning one all out set] but since reading through this I have began to try the theory on my legs, leaving my upper body training as was.


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## B-GJOE

I suspect that you guys think I have abandoned this thread. Well evidence would prove that I have.

I am still doing heavy duty training, the routine I outlined earlier, however, the elbow injury i spoke about earlier is still there, and I have got fluid on the thing now. Also had the flu, so have really struggled to push my workouts. Due to injury and flu, the demotivation hasn't really helped with diet. Have had periods of appetite loss from flu, followed by insatiable hunger and binges.

The good news is that despite all the life situations getting in the way, I have not gone backwards, but also not as far forward as I could have if I was in a healthier state. I think the elbow is probably about 2 weeks away from full recovery, and current flu has peaked, so fingers crossed back on track soon.


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## Gza1

Hope u get back soon mate, I'm the same I started heavy duty agen and the came down with the flu, totaly draines you dusnt it


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## tiptoe

With regards to things like flu and bugs in general I have noticed that since I stopped HIT I have stopped really picking up bugs colds flu ect (touch wood!). Now since I started training about 7 years ago I have always trained HIT but I have noticed that this last year I began feeling run down more and being more suseptable to colds ect. No changes in anything I have done eating resting training ect still the same. So I decided I might be overtraining so added a couple more days rest between workouts. Still this continued all year up untill recently when I decided for the first time to change things up and do a more basic old skool syle push pull legs routine heavy weights but not training to failure and aiming for sets reps and not training to failure at all. I can honestly say that I feel so much recovered and fresh for workouts and seem to have stopped picking up these stupid bugs.

Maybe after a long time my CNS has been fried but I can not see myself training to failure for a long time.


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## B-GJOE

Hi guys

I am having to take another break. The elbow injury is not improving, full of fluid and very painfull on pushing, pressing movements. Had cold and flu symptoms for almost 2 weeks. Time to stop being stubborn and take another break until the flu symptoms have passed and the injury is healed. Just going nowhere attempting to continue training a body that need repair. Very dissapointed, as I took a break just before changing to HIT. Life has a sick way of getting in the way of your plans and goals. But it's comforting to remember that it's only temporary.


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## Gerry_bhoy

Best idea, Joe. Hope you have a speedy recovery.


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## thereisnoexit

If I had reps I'd give you them all - id seen clips of this but never found the entire thing - hes somewhat of a hero to me, he took a logical and scientific approach - incredibly insightfull


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## B-GJOE

First session back in the Gym this evening. Elbow still hurts a little, been draining the fluid, and resting it. Had a pretty good session, strength only down a very small amount since last session. Hopefully on the road to a full recovery now.


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## mindmuscle

B|GJOE said:


> Elbow still hurts a little, been draining the fluid, and resting it.


How do you drain the fluid??


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## B-GJOE

mindmuscle said:


> How do you drain the fluid??


Stick a needle in it then squeeze the crap out. The condition is called bursitis where bursis around the joint fills with fluid, usually caused by trauma such as a hard hit, like I received. The fluid usually dissipates on it's own, but sometimes you need to get a doctor to drain it. As the national health is pretty useless most of the time, and they would probably have just sent me home with advise to rest and ibuprofen, I took it upon myself to self drain when the pressure and build up got painfull. Only a little niggling pain now.


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## Cheese

Good to hear your on the mend.

I'm still sticking to the routine you outlined but last week decided to try my one rep max on bench press.

It's up by 15kg's. I can only put this down to training in such a controlled manner for the past month. I have been doing 7 seconds positive and 7 seconds negative on bench press as this is kind of a happy medium between 3 and 10 seconds.

The most gruelling excersice i find is leg press followed by leg extensions. During the leg extensions its difficult not to let out cries of pain but its a great feeling once you get off the machine and the blood rushes to the muscles. I have never felt a feeling like it after training legs before, kind of indescribable. They tingle.


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## B-GJOE

HIT on legs is a killer, but it takes a man to cry like a little girl through the pain of training. LOL


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## Gerry_bhoy

Good to see you're back in training, Joe. Did you start you're nephew on the Body By Science 5?

As of last week, I took a wee break from HIT. Will go back in about 2 months. Back to a Push, Pull, Legs 5x5 for now.

It is brutal, maybe I wasn't strong enough to stick to it, when your head is telling you thats enough, I find it hard to tell if i've hit geniune failure. All trial and error I suppose, hope to go back refreshed before two long anyway.


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## Cheese

I might have to leave HIT for a couple of weeks as my training partner is on maternity leave. Going to positive failure without a spotter is a bit dodgy at best and negative is a no no.


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## B-GJOE

Gerry_bhoy said:


> Good to see you're back in training, Joe. Did you start you're nephew on the Body By Science 5?
> 
> As of last week, I took a wee break from HIT. Will go back in about 2 months. Back to a Push, Pull, Legs 5x5 for now.
> 
> It is brutal, maybe I wasn't strong enough to stick to it, when your head is telling you thats enough, I find it hard to tell if i've hit geniune failure. All trial and error I suppose, hope to go back refreshed before two long anyway.


It was my step son, not my nephew. He is only 14, 15 this month. I put him through big every saturday, he's got lots of spirit and guts. No special diet, just told him to have as many eggs and full fat milk as he can. Here is a picture of him just 4 weeks into training.

I also think he took the eggs thing a little too seriously. Here is a vid he put on youtube


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## Paulus

There's a small series of once weekly workouts on youtube using basic HIT principles. A few people might be interested in the use of the "rush factor" technique. The subject of the videos has got his workouts down to under 4 minutes whilst making significant strength progression and fat loss.

http://www.youtube.com/user/PureHIT2008

Cheers

Paulus


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## tiptoe

great link mate thanks!


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## Paulus

tiptoe said:


> great link mate thanks!


No probs. I'm glad you found them interesting.


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## essexboy

Gerry_bhoy said:


> Good to see you're back in training, Joe. Did you start you're nephew on the Body By Science 5?
> 
> As of last week, I took a wee break from HIT. Will go back in about 2 months. Back to a Push, Pull, Legs 5x5 for now.
> 
> It is brutal, maybe I wasn't strong enough to stick to it, when your head is telling you thats enough, I find it hard to tell if i've hit geniune failure. All trial and error I suppose, hope to go back refreshed before two long anyway.


gerry you might find that a partner, who can push you through a w/o will help enormously.They can help standardise your routine, and keep records, as you progress.


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## mazzucazze

I know this is an old thread but I'm wondering if you guys kept using this training method and with which results


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## Mark W H

An interesting read. I remember reading about this in the early 90's when i hadn't long been in the gym and tried supersets and drop sets instead to up the intensity of my workouts. I was probably massively overtraining and under-eating at the time.

I've been doing rippetoes upto christmas and am looking for a change for the new year. Was planning on a "normal" BB workout with numerous sets in the 7-10 rep range, but may well give this a go.


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## hsmann87

I've pretty much always trained in a similar way Dorian used to train.

I.e. one maximal set to failure. However he revisited each bodypart every 6th day, but I revisit every bodypart every 10th day as i need more recovery etc as im not a filthy dirty roider! lol

The thing with training with one maximal set to failure is that it takes a long time to actually be able to yield such intensity and harness enough from that set to stimulate the motor neurones of the muscles enough. But once you are able to do it, you honestly are in no position to perform a better set.

Maybe work into it by doing 2 sets to failure to begin with and then move to 1 set to failure...

Experiment with it.

Good luck mate


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