# Short burst cycling explained-



## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

One of the best approaches Ive ever used to build muscle tissue is short burst cycling, before i go any further i want to state that short cycling can be implemented to what ever level you are, its not only for the advance Bodybuilder it can be for all stages, its just the amount of gear Mg is adjusted to suit the individual's level. The best part of this thread will be aimed at advanced bodybuilders because of the high dose used with burst cycling but no discussion on dosages will be made on the open board unless it needs to be discussed.

Muscle tissue doesn't grow continuously over long periods of time, weight gain and muscular growth doesn't happen that way. Not in infants, toddlers, teenagers, or even weight trainers. Instead, weight gain seems to come in spurts or surges. It's amazing how you can train hard and eat very well year round yet only seem to make progress in quick little infrequent spurts of growth even with taking all the AAS compounds the body still gets use to whats being taken and builds up tolerance and adapts. If you look back over your cycle history you will notice the growth spurts within the cycles, we don't keep on growing because if we did we would all be 500lbs+. This method can build huge tissue gains in that short growth window if everything is in place.

*Pre -Cycle Primming*- First you must open the growth window and create a very anabolic environment for muscle tissue to grow, muscle receptors will get very excitable and upgrade to except more glucose which will shift the muscle to fat ratio which in turn will create muscle tissue to build very quickly, when this is coupled with a short burst cycle right after a prime the results can be outstanding, some of you will understand this from rebound cycling after a comp, its very similar except the prime isn't as harsh as the pre-cycle comp diet and the prime is only directed at creating and opening the growth window for the cycle, its a pre-cycle prime.(details of primming is in a separate thread).Hgh protocol should be ran during the prime at low dose and kicked up when cycle starts.

*Duration* - Short burst cycling usually last for around 30 days, there is no set rule on the length of cycle and normally it can be open ended and stopped when growth slows/stops. You have to listen to the body and adjust, with burst cycling it shouldn't be ran for long periods of time, longer doesn't mean more or better gains.Keep it short and feed the growth window and build the tissue and stop, recover and maintain.

*Dosages*- The dose for a short burst cycle is alot more than you would normally use in a standard length cycle, because of the prime and the body being in a very anabolic environment it can take on board alot more than usual and over loading androgens will fully push the body to grow, it also takes time for the body to adjust to the high level of hormones in relation to sides so before you are experiencing them your off cycle. Over your cycle history you would of tried the heavy dosages and seen the sides come and where its not worth the risk's to muscle gain, this is why its kept to a short period before the body can adjust with sides the cycle is over and growth is completed. Individual dosages are designed off your cycle history, there is no set dose it all depends on what your cycle history looks like, someone who normally uses 500mg per wk will be completely different to the guy who uses 1500mgs per wk when designing short burst cycles, but both will have the benefit of using high amounts what they normally don't run.

*Side effects*- If your looking for the best effective way to run hormones without to much negative feedback staying on for long periods of time probably isn't the best option to take. Ive had far better blood work back from high burst cycles than when Ive ran longer cycles at alot less dosage. There is minimal impact on the HPTA and recovery is far easier than trying to bring back natural production from a long cycle, there is some elevated aggression because of the high amount of androgens but overall this can be channeled into your workouts. PCT should be painless and within normal boundaries of how you recover. Blood pressure in some can be a problem but not serious but needs to be checked throughout the period so aids can be used to combat the problem if needed. Water retention is low but can be elevated if this system is ran for long periods, but if there is a problem normal AI can be used to help this issue and OTC herbal diuretics. Tren user's within this system get bad BW results due to the harshness of the compound but boy does it produce gains but you have to be prepared to have a hard recovery and sides, kinda defeats the object but again, down to the individual.

*Compounds*- Because its a short period of time the normal way would to run short ester's, but you can use long ester's within a short cycle, i know what some of you are thinking but it can be done with great results, because of the androgen overload your simply frontloading long ester's to an amount were it is effective straight from the start, the only problem is you have to drop them out 14 days before the end and swap them with fast ester's so everything is clear for PCT, i know what some are saying sounds pointless but its not, to the BB's who prefer long ester and they respond better to them, remember its designed of your cycle history so if your better with long esters go with them until 14 days from the end and swap to fast ester's, the daily injection and the amount of tissue the body can produce in a short period is amazing, if anyone wants to discuss long ester's with this theory i will but at this moment in time i will stop before i complicate things more. Short ester's and fast acting compounds are used and the exact compounds depends on what your trying to achieve but normally its Test based or what you respond best to, 2 /3 compounds are ran at a time but no need to run loads, keep them limited less is better,Ive even known guys used 1 compound with stunning results. HGH is increased to a high amount when cycle starts just like all the compounds. I did a study once with some BB's and the dosages range alot with all different HGH protocol's which is interesting reading but i can go into that at a later date.

*Maintenance* - Due to the HPTA being shut down or suppressed for a short period of time its far better to get it to respond when the cycle is over, remember being shut down for weeks on end cause's serious issues about recovery and maintenance, shorter shut downs produces easier recovery no matter how much you have pushed in the body,which in turn results in better maintenance which equals keeping more gains. Once you have shut down your HPTA its down and its the period of shutdown what cause's damage, would you rather shut down your HPTA for 14 weeks or 30 days?? or continually shutting down and recovering isn't the other best approach either, depends on the person's goals and what he wants to achieve with BBing, some of my friends who are at a high level use short burst cycling coupled with bridge's because of what they have to compete with on stage and get ready for photo shoots nearly all the time. Recovering from a standard or long cycle it cost muscle tissue while trying to recovery even with all the peptide's chemicals this day and age we still lose tissue, with this theory losing tissue is limited.

*Diet* - After the prime as been implemented correctly, the cycle should be started and this day should line up with the first high carb day after the low day carbs within the prime, calories from then on should be increased to over maintenance, different opinions here to how much, again down to knowing your body and how it responds, many who increase too fast will create huge water retention due to the increase of carbs, some don't and over load can be implemented, if your one of these guys who has water retention when carbs are increased after being depleted then over maintenance should be ran for 1 week then, overload should be used, if your not and you don't carry the water from the carbs increase calories well over maintenance and go with growth, feed the dramatic growth what can occur if you have done the procedure correctly.Over eat, over feed, overload on the first day of the cycle straight after the prime from low carb phase.One last thing and i hope many understand this- diet is 24hr dedication while running the theory.

*Training* - Train to how you grow, best advice here is heavy intense workouts to total failure,HIT style or what ever works for you, you have the answers on how you grow. Intense is the key, stimulation of the whole body to grow, don't waste this time, remember to train how i am recommending is impossible for 10-12 weeks, its to hard and wouldn't last 4 weeks, before a turn around is needed and lay up from the heavy training session, so with this in mind you can mentally focus on this because its only for around 30 days long. Ive used many ways myself but the best for me with this style of cycling was heavy drop sets to failure plus forced, swapped to pre-exhausted drop sets to failure the following next total body workout, then swapped again. Workouts are short but seriously intense but you have the food/chemicals and energy to support this for this short period so don't waste it, Ive seen huge amounts of tissue build from this, myself i created 10lbs of clean tissue in a very short period of time after PCT and maintenance. Everybody's different to how much they build and comes down to if you have primed correctly, designed the perfect stack for you, placed the correct amount of mg's in the blood every day and how well you train to build fresh tissue.

When i was first learnt this method my whole body changed to a serious level,I never went back to the normal way of cycling, it suited me so much and the growth was amazing. Borreson sat me down and explained in detail how this can happen and to this day things have moved forward so much from Paul's day but i always remember him saying "please try it you will be amazed" he was right and it could for you. Look at Dorian what he did straight after a show....he was back in the gym the day after while the other were on vacation, he was using the growth window to create a very anabolic environment for tissue to grow and he used it, thats why in some years he produced some serious muscle tissue gains what has been seen since due to his method and style, many top pro's used this system but its tweaked to suit their individual's needs.

Please note, i am not saying do short burst cycles with little time off and then back on short burst cycle, no i haven't gone into that side of things, all i am doing is explaining the whole theory behind short burst cycling with first hand experience from myself and many bodybuilder's.

Marcus


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

excellant read mate makes loads of sense.....i have a 11day window after my last comp before i pack my speedo's and fly to cyprus i am wanting to incorperate this theory in those 11 days do you think this is possible? the overload on the first day with nutrition won't be a problem after 17weeks of dieting 

if you think this is feasable marcus i will pm you for a chat concerning dose...


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## am1ev1l (Feb 25, 2008)

Nice post.

I've been thinking about trying this for some time now. Would you sugest using the same compounds that you'd stack in a longer cycle or is it best to stick to test alone?


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> excellant read mate makes loads of sense.....i have a 11day window after my last comp before i pack my speedo's and fly to cyprus i am wanting to incorperate this theory in those 11 days do you think this is possible? the overload on the first day with nutrition won't be a problem after 17weeks of dieting
> 
> if you think this is feasable marcus i will pm you for a chat concerning dose...


I dont think 11 days is enough Paul, maintenace and PCT and training while in cyprus could be an issue. What about this- seeing you have been dieting for 17 weeks your not going to be in all that bad of a position when you come back, alittle prime might only be needed because of where your body is already, then you could foucs totally on the job in hand to open the window and grow some size?? thoughts


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

am1ev1l said:


> Nice post.
> 
> I've been thinking about trying this for some time now. Would you sugest using the same compounds that you'd stack in a longer cycle or is it best to stick to test alone?


I would recommened compounds what you have used in the past which has given you some excellent results, if thats Test go with it and couple it with a suitable combo.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

yes mate that was my next option you know how it is wanting to take as much advantage of the situation....although PCT would not be an issue with the ROHM PCT caps training on holiday after 17 weeks of dieting my wife would chop my danglys off 

so you reckon do this straight after the holiday or fully recover then use this method....your thoughts are appreciated mate


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## Guest (May 2, 2008)

Sorry if I have missed this info, but are you a competitive bodybuilder/pro Marcus? I have read alot of your posts recently, all very informative and all have given me plenty of info to think about, much appreciated, a few I have copied and saved to my PC!


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## Aftershock (Jan 28, 2004)

May seem like a silly question but how do you "feel" when running this protocol.

How is your sense of wellbeing and mood affected by the sudden influx of a high amount of androgens and food?

I gained 21lb in 7 days on a rebound once with very little gear (admittedly 2/3 of that was just water and glycogen going back in), but I felt like I had been run over by a bus 

Is is just a case of train/eat/sleep during this period and not doing much else?


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> yes mate that was my next option you know how it is wanting to take as much advantage of the situation....although PCT would not be an issue with the ROHM PCT caps training on holiday after 17 weeks of dieting my wife would chop my danglys off
> 
> so you reckon do this straight after the holiday or fully recover then use this method....your thoughts are appreciated mate


It would depend on how your diet is good to be like after the comp and during holiday, if you are going to run a prime but nothing to serious because of the condition your in, maybe say 2-3 days low and re-feed you will still be in the growth window and will create that anabolic edge when you get back, or if you just going to eat everything in site..........and i dont blame you after 17 wks, then you will need to do a slight prime but nothing long infact short and create the environment again.


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

Waheed_Akhtar said:


> Sorry if I have missed this info, but are you a competitive bodybuilder/pro Marcus? I have read alot of your posts recently, all very informative and all have given me plenty of info to think about, much appreciated, a few I have copied and saved to my PC!


I am not a Pro bodybuilder, i hope ive been of help


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

Aftershock said:


> May seem like a silly question but how do you "feel" when running this protocol.
> 
> How is your sense of wellbeing and mood affected by the sudden influx of a high amount of androgens and food?
> 
> ...


Its a strange feeling when running it, kind of a head rush and a funny sensation throughout the body but normally that doesnt last long approx 10days. Mood good, well being through the roof.

Did you rebound from a comp diet? Some of that 27lbs is only weight and tissue what you lost anyway, this isn't like that, this is about still holding your tissue and creating the environment to build new found tissue.

Remember its similar process but the prime isn't anywhere near as harsh on the muscle tissue, so you uphold far more tissue, infact hopefully all your muscle tissue, its all about creating that anabolic growth window pre-cycle. Kind of think of the 6-8 weeks primming as part of the cycle and the 30 days as the last section to complete.

The last 30 day which is the cycle is the most intense, everything in your life as to be right, totall focus 24hr dedication with the food and serious workouts, but rememeber its only for 30 days or so!! so you can mentally prepare yourself for the attack.


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## Aftershock (Jan 28, 2004)

marcus300 said:


> Did you rebound from a comp diet? Some of that 27lbs is only weight and tissue what you lost anyway, this isn't like that, this is about still holding your tissue and creating the environment to build new found tissue.


Call it a dry run for a comp diet, still to take the plunge on that one. I just wanted to get the feel of how my body would react. Yes at least 2/3 of the sudden weight gain was tissue I had prior to the diet and the glycogen going back in. I actually went on an all inclusive holiday straight after stopping the diet so there was lots of food around. However the strength gain on my return was phenomenal, new PB's all over the place.



marcus300 said:


> Remember its similar process but the prime isn't anywhere near as harsh on the muscle tissue, so you uphold far more tissue, infact hopefully all your muscle tissue, its all about creating that anabolic growth window pre-cycle. Kind of think of the 6-8 weeks primming as part of the cycle and the 30 days as the last section to complete.


Thats was I was thinking, the previous rebound was the result of a harsh diet and this probably partly the cause of me feeling rough when I was rebounding.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Marcus i will be eating but i wont want to go mad as i know from experiance this can make me ill so i will do a small prime the week i get back then do a burst i will PM you this weekend on dosages if you dont mind....


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## noturbo (Oct 27, 2006)

As you need fast acting gear would orals like dbol/tbol be ok for this approach?


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

noturbo said:


> As you need fast acting gear would orals like dbol/tbol be ok for this approach?


You dont always need fast acting gear, in general yes it would be better for alot of BB's.

Orals will put alot of stress on the liver due to the amount you would have to run them at, they could be used for additional support but only at a moderate dose, i do know BB's who put orals in with this type of cycling at high dose but they have reported appetite issue so i would use injectables, it would be something less to think about and be concerned with, think its a safer option.


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## Slamdog (Jun 11, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> training on holiday after 17 weeks of dieting my wife would chop my danglys off


and there was you thinking of visiting stuart mcroberts gym in nicosia........


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## Littleluke (Nov 21, 2005)

Excellent post mate, reps to you. Will be looking into this for my post comp and off season. Thank you.


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## Rebus (May 22, 2006)

Got a competition on Sunday and this is just what the Dr ordered for my rebound which ive never done before. I PM'd a knowledgable guy from this board re the rebound and what i have seems very much like what you have described.

Top marks. Out of interest where does your knowledge/experience come from?


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Great post marcus, great thread.


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## wogihao (Jun 15, 2007)

Marcus, you knew Paul B, can you fill in the blanks with is cycle article, it must have been scanned wrong because its missing the leading digit on the cycle informaiton...

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroids-associated-drugs-articles/32550-evil-men-do-paul-borreson.html


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Wogihao Marcus has said he will not go into dosages for obvious reasons, i have this article with all the doses and it is certainly not something i would be happy with on the open board with so many newbies looking for a quick fix...


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## Guest (May 2, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> Wogihao Marcus has said he will not go into dosages for obvious reasons, i have this article with all the doses and it is certainly not something i would be happy with on the open board with so many newbies looking for a quick fix...


Paul could you pm me the articles, i am not a newbee and i wont be using the protocols but i am very intrested in all of those kind of writings and all the ideas from training to gear that these guys have written in general.

If not fair enough thought it couldnt hurt to ask

Great post marcus i have read it before and 100% agree with the priming idea not only for cycles but just for general growth in general!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Con will do mate just got to dig it out i have no issues with that


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

wogihao said:


> Marcus, you knew Paul B, can you fill in the blanks with is cycle article, it must have been scanned wrong because its missing the leading digit on the cycle informaiton...
> 
> http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroids-associated-drugs-articles/32550-evil-men-do-paul-borreson.html


Paul was a legend and was very advanced for his time, but some of his methods are very extreme and i wouldnt advice them, many times in his articles he advice's using Benzo's and other prescribed medication and even Rec drugs which IMHO doesnt have any use what so ever with bodybuilding.

Things have moved on so much since Paul brought this type of cycling to the table, infact his method is very out of date but still you can understand the theory. His world was a complicated one and many times hard to understand.By just looking at his work you should understand what i am talking about but i cant openly post dosages what he intended because dosage is worked of the bodybuilders cycle history and shouldnt be taken what is written IMHO.

I will discuss dosages here but i feel alot of newbie's will start to think this is right for them and its clearly not, its a theory for a bodybuilder who has come to a hault in his progress and needs a push back into growth.


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

Con said:


> Paul could you pm me the articles, i am not a newbee and i wont be using the protocols but i am very intrested in all of those kind of writings and all the ideas from training to gear that these guys have written in general.
> 
> If not fair enough thought it couldnt hurt to ask
> 
> ...


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

Great original post.

I ran a short burst (aka SHIC) cycle approx. 18 - 24 months ago. I assume I'm not allowed to mention the doses but the compounds were as follows:

Days 1 - 5: Sustanon

Days 6 - 10: Primobolan

Days 11 - 30: Tren Hex, Test Prop, Oral Winny

GH Throughout which had been running for weeks prior to the start of the cycle.

I gained 24lbs on this cycle, admittedly it was after a 3 month diet so some of those gains would be due to the rebound effect, but I was impressed nonetheless. I experienced zero sides except some post jab soreness from putting too much Sus in my quads.

Paul Borresen's book 'The Stack' is dedicated to explaining the theory behind this type of cycle and is a very interesting read, it's certainly not like any other BB publication I've ever seen.

Although there are many variations, the typical protocol in 'The Stack' book is one where the user would load up on heavy androgens (usually long estered) then switch to anabolics (again long estered) before finishing the cycle on short estered gear and/or orals, timing the final phase of the cycle to end when the frontloaded long esters are clearing.


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

Rich-B said:


> Great original post.
> 
> I ran a short burst (aka SHIC) cycle approx. 18 - 24 months ago. I assume I'm not allowed to mention the doses but the compounds were as follows:
> 
> ...


First hand experinece,

The diet before the cycle sounds abit extreme for 12 wks, if it was just a pre-cycle prime you wouldnt off lost so much weight to put it back on when the cycle started, but again i dont know what your intention were but you more or less have done what ive stated, thanks for outlinning the cycle and results, Excellent.


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

The diet wasn't intended as a pre-cycle prime at the time, I was just trying to get my abs showing for my holiday. I decided to do a cycle when I started looking too skinny and had been reading about SHICs for some time to thought I'd give one a try. Next cycle in approx 12 weeks will be my second SHIC, I intend to run the pre-cycle prime this time as you have outlined in your other thread.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Rich you can put your doses down mate, as these where relevant to your cycle experiance which is the message we are trying to send....


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

O.K. mate, the doses were as follows:

Days 1 - 5: Sus 500mg/day

Days 6 - 10: Primo 200mg/day

Days 11 - 30: Tren Hex 76mg EOD

Days 11 - 30: Test Prop 100mg/day

Days 11 - 30: Winny tabs 50mg/day

The GH was Ansomone @ 4iu/day


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Rich can you put down the amounts you would normally cycle with so we all can see how the doses sum up...


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

An average 10 - 12 weeker would be:

Weeks 1 - 12: Test 750mg/wk

Weeks 1 - 10: Deca 400 - 600mg/wk

Weeks 13 - 15: Test Prop 100mg EOD

OR

An average 6 week short estered cycle would be:

Weeks 1 - 6: Test Prop 100 - 200mg EOD

Weeks 1 - 6: Tren Ace 75mg EOD or Masteron 200mg EOD

I tend to avoid orals these days.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

thanks mate this will give the members an indication on how you come up with the SHIC amounts


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

Rich-B said:


> An average 10 - 12 weeker would be:
> 
> Weeks 1 - 12: Test 750mg/wk
> 
> ...


If thats what you would normally use the short cycle isn't a burst short cycle, i would believe the gains must of been from the prime along side a standard short cycle. Well done just shows how important the prime is when doing any kind of cycling.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Marcus maybe you can give Rich what doses you would advise on the burst cycle given what he would normally use


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## ymir (Jun 4, 2007)

Im coming off my diet in 8-10 weeks and my plan was going to rebound and use the "growth window" I will propably weigh about 185-190 at the end of my diet, Im thinking of using this chance to rebound coupled with a burst cycle, Im abit unsure of the dosages tho

I would like to do it as a experiment to see how far I can push the rebound, I'm abit unsure on the dosages tho, Before and after pics will of course be a given if I make a log of it.

All I know atm is that it will contain lots of dianabol and Test


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

marcus300 said:


> If thats what you would normally use the short cycle isn't a burst short cycle, i would believe the gains must of been from the prime along side a standard short cycle. Well done just shows how important the prime is when doing any kind of cycling.


Presumably you think the dose should be higher for the burst cycle for it to be classed as a burst cycle?

As Pscarb has mentionned, if this is the case what would you suggest?


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## wogihao (Jun 15, 2007)

are we talking a gram a day for 2 weeks of test then switch to deca marcus?


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## thestudbeast (Jul 20, 2007)

This idea seems to be floating around more and more lately but this is the best I've seen it explained and the priming is brand new to me, top threads.


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## takeone (May 23, 2007)

after running a good pct how long would you suggest a good time to be off till you ran a similar course?


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

Rich-B said:


> Presumably you think the dose should be higher for the burst cycle for it to be classed as a burst cycle?
> 
> As Pscarb has mentionned, if this is the case what would you suggest?


The short cycle you stated is roughly the same mg as the average cycle so it isn't a heavy or burst cycle it just an average short cycle, i am not knocking it one bit infact the short cycle is a good combo, especailly with the results you had but i am just stating that it just shows how important the prime is if results can be achieved even with and average short cycle dose. If it was going to be a burst or heavy it would be alot more than you would normally use, in your case you wouldnt need to run anything heavier because of the results you are getting from your cycles anyway, well done.

It was going to advice you of the dosages to use for a short heavy cycle, i would need alot more cycle history and results, but going of just your last short cycle and what you achieved i wouldnt advice running any high amounts because they are not needed, carry on what you are doing, results speak for themselves.


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

wogihao said:


> are we talking a gram a day for 2 weeks of test then switch to deca marcus?


No, why would you swap to deca after 2 weeks for only 2 wks and have to wait for the deca to leave before pct started?

I am not just going to start stating high amounts of mg per day when there are so many newbies on this site, also its worked of a guys cycle history and how he responds so just throwing dosages up in the air is like telling a guy to eat a load of chicken to get big. It goes deeper than just high dosages. If you read the article again hopefully it may come clear wogihao


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

There are many ways to do short cycling and to be honest i prefer any kind of short cycling towards the standard types what are around. The above thread is more or less based on heavy,burst (call it what you want) short cycling, even though the above method of training and primming can be implemented into any kind of short cycle so know matter what stage or level you are this can be done with great effect.

When i say burst or heavy i mean heavier than you would normally use, remember the guy using 250mg per wk will be different to the guy who is using 1000mg per wk, but both will be using heavier then they normally use and hopefully bursting into another growth phase.

Going slightly of the subject but i feel it needs to be mentioned is, we all grow muscle at different speeds some guys just pile it on others struggle,this whats separates alot of the top pro's, but it all comes down to our genetic and the make-up of how our bodies grow. With this day and age of high tec chemicals we can push the boundaries of our genetic potential, but some of us can build muscle easier than others and learning why this is will be of great advantage for you achieving your goals.

Now studies have be done to understand why some of us grow at a quicker rate than others, alot show that its the body's pathway of creating and processing Testosterone is the key (muscle fibers are another). Test is simply the king of hormones for size and strength and understanding how we process this does give huge headways into building more muscle.

Alot of the guys who don't respond well to gear or don't keep responding well to further cycles is how the body tries to keep homeostasis state, one of the main enzyme is SHBG which is to blame for why some people don't respond or keep responding to AAS like others do. Running cycles close together or not addressing SHBG is one of the most worst things a BBer can do if he is a person who i described above.

Hopefully guys here understand SHBG, if you don't i will explain in detail for you if needed. What i am trying to say is when designing a burst cycle many avenues need to be looked at around how your own body grows and builds tissues, many of us have high levels of SHBG because of what we do to our body's with AAS many have high levels anyway naturally, if they are hard gainers.This needs addressing when designing a short cycle because this is our own bodies process of opening the growth window, we need to free up has much free Test as possible otherwise we wont grow no matter what, so understand someones cycle history is very important to designing cycles what will produce serious growth for that individual.

We have already addressed the priming aspect and training and eating so fine tunning designing the cycle will produce the best gains possible.


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

takeone said:


> after running a good pct how long would you suggest a good time to be off till you ran a similar course?


Depends on your goals and what your trying to achieve, someone who wants to stand on stage with the best of them will be a different approach than the guy who doesn't.


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

Excellent post marcus, reps. Where can i find the study(ies)? Excellent read BTW.


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

bigacb said:


> Excellent post marcus, reps. Where can i find the study(ies)? Excellent read BTW.


Thanks bigacd, the studies regarding the SHBG and how they can destroy muscle building no matter what you take are widely available if you do a simple search.


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

Ok mate no probs just got to be careful what i go on and search for, im in work and it all gets monitored. Il save it for a rainy day.


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

bigacb said:


> Ok mate no probs just got to be careful what i go on and search for, im in work and it all gets monitored. Il save it for a rainy day.


Basically SHBG is the body's way at maintaining homeostasis, testosterone weather its produced naturally or injected is either held in a "bound" or "free" state. What determines how much "free Test" is floating around our bodies so we can have benefits of building muscle tissue and all the other benefits of Test is SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin).

Studies have shown people with high levels of SHBG find it harder to build muscle than others, this is one of the reason why some bb'ers grow faster and quicker than others and seem to gain on alot on less gear. The more Test what is held in a "bound" state isn't working towards your goal, only the free testosterone is. This is why some who start to inject more test at a huge rate don't make anymore gains than on low dose, SHBG is producing more and holding what your injecting more of in a bound state, kinda pointless exercise.

Wise bodybuilders and top pro's know how to allow more free test be taken up by the cells rather than in a bound state rendering it useless, designing cycles and using compounds what attach to SHBG will allow more free test to flow. Notice how well gains are when you have a long time of gear? this is one of the reason's that a natural way of lowering SHBG.

Bloodwork has been taken on people who have been on test for a number of wks and its clearly shows the build up of SHBG which renders more test useless in a bound state, our own bodies system creating a homeostasis state, if your one of the many guys who class themselves has hard gainers this is one area were you should be looking and i am sure BW would clearly show how much free test is available and how much high levels of SHBG you have.

Certain compounds what attach itself to SHBG and certain natural remedies can help to free up more test.So careful planning of cycles is the key to great gains or better gains than you normally achieve, link all the issues together and create a very anabolic environment and you have cracked it to further muscle gains.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

the last time my Bloods where tested i had lowish Test levels(8.7) but very low SHBG my Doc said that althopugh my Test was on the low side because of my SHBG levels being what they where it was better than someone who had very high test levels and high levels of SHBG.....proviron is one compound that can help with SHBG binding


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks for the post marcus very informative again.


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## bigacb (Nov 13, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> the last time my Bloods where tested i had lowish Test levels(8.7) but very low SHBG my Doc said that althopugh my Test was on the low side because of my SHBG levels being what they where it was better than someone who had very high test levels and high levels of SHBG.....proviron is one compound that can help with SHBG binding


Im glad im running proviron for the first time on this course then


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> the last time my Bloods where tested i had lowish Test levels(8.7) but very low SHBG my Doc said that althopugh my Test was on the low side because of my SHBG levels being what they where it was better than someone who had very high test levels and high levels of SHBG.....proviron is one compound that can help with SHBG binding


Thats a good postion to be in Paul, your spot on with the proviron, its a must compound for binding to the SHBG


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

bigacb said:


> Im glad im running proviron for the first time on this course then


Yes it will help to free up more test for you to use,


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## wogihao (Jun 15, 2007)

bigacb said:


> Im glad im running proviron for the first time on this course then


Not just proviron - alough its very good you could also use winstrol it has a similar efect.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

yes but that is another steroid to add to the others you are using in my opinion it is better to add Proviron than another main steroid unless your cycle warrants winny...


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

Rich-B said:


> Originally Posted by *Rich-B*
> 
> An average 10 - 12 weeker would be:
> 
> ...


Marcus.....

Just to clarify, the burst cycle I did was the one listed below, I get the impression you are thinking it was the short 6 weeker listed above. The two above are typical none burst cycles I would usually do.

Days 1 - 5: Sus 500mg/day

Days 6 - 10: Primo 200mg/day

Days 11 - 30: Tren Hex 76mg EOD

Days 11 - 30: Test Prop 100mg/day

Days 11 - 30: Winny tabs 50mg/day

The GH was Ansomone @ 4iu/day


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

Rich-B said:


> Marcus.....
> 
> Just to clarify, the burst cycle I did was the one listed below, I get the impression you are thinking it was the short 6 weeker listed above. The two above are typical none burst cycles I would usually do.
> 
> ...


Ahh right, cross wire's


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

marcus300 said:


> Thanks bigacd, the studies regarding the SHBG and how they can destroy muscle building no matter what you take are widely available if you do a simple search.


Not flaming, but if you are going to say "studies have shown" then really you should provide them rather than tell the O.P. to go off and find them.


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## BB_999 (Feb 20, 2006)

Pscarb said:


> proviron is one compound that can help with SHBG binding


If a cycle contains Masteron does this negate the need for Proviron for the purpose of enhancing free test?


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## wogihao (Jun 15, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> yes but that is another steroid to add to the others you are using in my opinion it is better to add Proviron than another main steroid unless your cycle warrants winny...


I was just thinking from a cost basis/avaliblity, but I totaly agree provrion is a nice mild substance.


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

TH&S said:


> Not flaming, but if you are going to say "studies have shown" then really you should provide them rather than tell the O.P. to go off and find them.


Here are some articles and studies relating to SHBG what ive got on my computer, i am not posting full studies due to length, just do a simple search on SHBG and it will come clear what this enzyme does.

http://SHBG/printout75.html

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2265.1993.tb01769.x

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/jan00-cover2.html

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/1/157

http://www.ironmagazine.com/printout75.html


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## marcus300 (Apr 22, 2008)

Pscarb said:


> yes but that is another steroid to add to the others you are using in my opinion it is better to add Proviron than another main steroid unless your cycle warrants winny...


I would agree with this, proviron is a nice little addition what can control raising SHBG by attaching itself which will leave more free test to do its job


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## Trenzyme (May 4, 2008)

Rich-B said:


> If a cycle contains Masteron does this negate the need for Proviron for the purpose of enhancing free test?


Mast will take care of shbg mate


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## brickhoused (Mar 12, 2008)

Which other compounds would also help?


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

marcus300 said:


> Basically SHBG is the body's way at maintaining homeostasis, testosterone weather its produced naturally or injected is either held in a "bound" or "free" state. What determines how much "free Test" is floating around our bodies so we can have benefits of building muscle tissue and all the other benefits of Test is SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin).
> 
> Studies have shown people with high levels of SHBG find it harder to build muscle than others, this is one of the reason why some bb'ers grow faster and quicker than others and seem to gain on alot on less gear. The more Test what is held in a "bound" state isn't working towards your goal, only the free testosterone is. This is why some who start to inject more test at a huge rate don't make anymore gains than on low dose, SHBG is producing more and holding what your injecting more of in a bound state, kinda pointless exercise.
> 
> ...


what natural remidies are there for this?


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

Pscarb said:


> the last time my Bloods where tested i had lowish Test levels(8.7) but very low SHBG my Doc said that althopugh my Test was on the low side because of my SHBG levels being what they where it was better than someone who had very high test levels and high levels of SHBG.....*proviron is one compound that can help with SHBG binding*


since injecting test can increase SHBG will taking proviron to inhibite SHBG effects also cause a SHBG increase?

lets say if someone wanted to use little or no aas would prov be benificial or would the SHBG increase over time to compensate for the SHBG that is being inhibited?

is there any studies on the best dose of prov for inhibiting SHBG effects? without other aas use (for inhibiting SHBG from natty test)


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Estrogen can elivate SHBG, so taking an AI would be a good idea anyway for estrogen management.


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## Rebus (May 22, 2006)

Perhaps ignorance despite my years of experience, but whilst i understand the consequences of 'shut down' from gear use etc, i have to admit i get a bit confused about all this SHBG and such like.

Could someone maybe explain for the benefit of other what steroid caused what effect in general, obviously not individual steroid but i think you get the picture.

Ie, whats shut down and why and what gets it back to normal and the benefit of doing so as opposed to cruising and not getting things back to ' normal ' :confused1:


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

when your natural (not on aas) your hormones/body are in a state called homeostasis. this is were your body is perfectly "tuned" and running perfectly with the correct mix of anabolic and catabolic hormones.

when you go on aas you add more hormones to the mix which increases anabolic hormones and decreases catabolic hormones, this "knocks" your body out of homestasis (out of tune) which it doesnt like.

your body doesnt want this to happen so your brain starts to do the only thing it can which is reduce your anabolic hormones (turn natty testosterone off) to try and get back to homeostasis so you have the correct "mix" of hormones. this is shut down. the more aas you use, the longer your on, and the more suppressive aas you use the more you will be shut down.

the longer your shut down makes it the long and harder for you to recover.

the hormone which tells you testis to produce testosterone is called LH hormone, this is the hormone that gets shut down by the brain which in turn shuts down natty test production.

HCG mimikes LH when injected. so HCG can be used to help recovery. it can be used may ways. so use it mid and just before end of cycle to "shock" the testis which makes it easier for them to respond to your natty LH.

nolv and clomid is used for pct "post cycle theropy" which helps/ aids the body to produce LH and lower estrogen (i dont no exactly how thes 2 work so i will leave it at that)

when you come off aas you go from a high anabolic enviroment/ low catabolic to a low anabolic to high catabolic enviroment.

the longer it takes you to get your natty test back to normal and fully recovered the greater chance you have of loosing your muscle mass gained do to a hormonal inbalance which is low test and high catabolic hormones which is very bad.

cruising is basicly staying on aas so your natty hormones wont have a chance to recover till you come off aas and run pct. even after pct if you have been on aas a long time, it may still take months to fully recover.

you want to recover as quickly as poss to stand the best chance off keeping all gains.

1 more thing to add. your body doesnt want to grow if it did then you would be bigger, your body is happy the way it is. you are the 1 wanting it to grow. your body increases muscle mass and strength as a defence mechanism when you lift weights and damage muscle tissue.

so your body doesnt want to get bigger, you are forcing it to. wen you come off aas if you dont have a good pct plan, keep training and diet sound then your body will do its very best to get rid of all that extra size you have gained so it can go back to the way it was, it will take time to re-adjust and reache "homeostasis" again. i have been told this takes around 6-9month for this to happen.

i think this is just about write. can someone more experienced chewck all this sorry if ive got some of it wrong lol im sure its correct tho


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

One thing to add here, your body can not hold more muscle than your natural hormones will allow.


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## Rebus (May 22, 2006)

Good info there and in Laymans terms. Which bit refers to SHBG ?


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

BRABUS said:


> Good info there and in Laymans terms.


 cheers i wrote it myself :thumb:

i didnt mension SHBG. i dont no much about DHBG iv just recently found out about it and its effects.

there is a post further back on this thread that explains it i think


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## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

hackskii said:


> One thing to add here, your body can not hold more muscle than your natural hormones will allow.


damn i new id forget to add something lol :thumb:


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