# To All The Steroid Users Out There!



## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

Check out these records from the British Drug Free Power-lifting Association!

Shows how strong you can be when natural!!

http://www.bdfpa.co.uk/records/GBRMUP.pdf


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## Glassback (Jun 18, 2010)

Why on earth would you make a thread like this? I dont take steroids but if I did I would find it antagonising. It still takes massive commitment, hard training, discipline and determination on steroids or not.


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## henleys (Sep 28, 2010)

lol.

i know many people that are stronger than me that don't have a better physique than me.


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Regardless whether I'm using PED's or not, as a bodybuilder I'm only interested in using the lightest weights possible in the safest manner possible to trigger maximum hypertrophy. You can keep your bench press records mate.


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## Dagman72 (Apr 2, 2009)

There is a difference between powerlifting and bodybuilding.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

I know a fair few bdfpa competitors that use...


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## roadz (Aug 28, 2008)

I don't use AAS myself, but I must admit, I do look at some AAS user's logs and think 'really? You're hammering the gear and those are your lifts?'

So I guess he does have a point in some way... I await your abuse lol


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## defdaz (Nov 11, 2007)

Yep but this is a bodybuilding forum.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

defdaz said:


> Regardless whether I'm using PED's or not, as a bodybuilder I'm only interested in using the lightest weights possible in the safest manner possible to trigger maximum hypertrophy. You can keep your bench press records mate.


Also, who wants to look big but not be strong? The two should go hand in hand.


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## Glassback (Jun 18, 2010)

I think Defdaz is point out a key difference between bodybuilding and Powerlifing. A bloke in our gym is very big, looks brilliant but doesnt go over a given weight for specific areas for safety. I couldnt argue with him either, he looked really good.


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## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

Yikes didn't mean to ruffle any feathers with this post just thought it was quite interesting!

I thought this section here was the strength and power part for the 3 power lifts and high weight lifts..?

The junior records I find really interesting...also anyone that cares check out the womens records pretty sick lol


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## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

Dagman72 said:


> There is a difference between powerlifting and bodybuilding.


I realise this but you do get bodybuilders that like to do powerlifting and vice-versa(obv alot less as you go into the 125s etc!) and I just thought it would be a good read for y'all...


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## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

bayman said:


> Also, who wants to look big but not be strong? The two should go hand in hand.


To a degree they do but i think if you asked the guys on here whether they wanted to be big OR strong most would say big.


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## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes you can be strong and natural, fair play to them 

Interesting reading mate thanks.


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## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

Ummm...not to put to fine a point on it but when BDFPA lifters start putting up numbers that are comparable with non tested lifters then you might have a point.

Until then all your saying is "look - drug free powerlifters are stronger than normal people and some drug using bodybuilders" . Well no **** sherlock, what a ****ing revelation that is.


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## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

Well those records are also unequipped so you could easily add alot more weight on to the squat and deadlift and comparing them to this organisation( http://www.britishpowerliftingorganisation.com/BPO_Mens_Powerlifting_Records_-_07_November_2010.pdf) the difference isnt alot at all!


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## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

On The Rise said:


> Well those records are also unequipped so you could easily add alot more weight on to the squat and deadlift and comparing them to this organisation( http://www.britishpowerliftingorganisation.com/BPO_Mens_Powerlifting_Records_-_07_November_2010.pdf) the difference isnt alot at all!


No, just circa 100kg on the squat and 100kg on the deadlift, barely a difference...lol.


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## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

OK Big difference in the 100kg+ classes but not in the lower classes which are healthier weights anyway!


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

It seems like someone has a chip on their shoulder 

All records should be respected - regardless of equipment etc. They are rsecords for a reason - that noone else has done more under the same circumstances.


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## Dig (Aug 28, 2007)

Using bdfpa isnt the best idea when trying to show the strength of tested lifters, better option would be to use gbpf were the standard is generally much higher and also tested. With those records you havent quite made the point you were trying to make i dont think as many of the 'records' are average at best.


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

defdaz said:


> Yep but this is a bodybuilding forum.


Yes but this is the strength and power subforum, and we dont give a **** about abs or body fat percentages or who looks the most **** in fake tan and there mothers g string, its all about lifting heavy ass weights


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## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

OK Yeah fair point. Im just an 21yo only been lifting 6 months or so seriously only just started researching into powerlifting but me old man was a powerlifter. Heres the records of the other organisation recommended an these are some serious lifts el naturel!

http://www.gbpf.org.uk/Competitions/records.aspx


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## Doink (Sep 21, 2010)

also just because somebody is tested it doesn't mean they don't use PEDS, or haven't used peds... some use very wisely and take clearance times etc into account.

It's not all black and white. Granted they wuill be lifting clean... doesn't mean they were clean to get there though does it?

Overall it's a bit of a pointless thread, stating the obvious like wee g said.


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## flapjack (Mar 1, 2008)

martin brown said:


> It seems like someone has a chip on their shoulder
> 
> All records should be respected - regardless of equipment etc. They are rsecords for a reason - that noone else has done more under the same circumstances.


Good point:thumbup1:


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## Musashi (Oct 21, 2009)

martin brown said:


> It seems like someone has a chip on their shoulder
> 
> All records should be respected - regardless of equipment etc. They are rsecords for a reason - that noone else has done more under the same circumstances.


Yep spot on mate.

Effort and dedication is required to set a record.


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## henleys (Sep 28, 2010)

bayman said:


> Also, who wants to look big but not be strong? The two should go hand in hand.


9 times out of 10 IMHO big people are normally strong.


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## goe1988 (Sep 14, 2008)

> All records should be respected - regardless of equipment etc. They are rsecords for a reason - that noone else has done more under the same circumstances.


Martin your a worl class equipped powerlifter, im just after your take on an argument we have in the gym a lot, do you (an equipped powerlifter) feel more proud of your raw lifts or equipped lifts? and when your numbers go up from meet to meet (as u learn equipment) do you still feel proud knowing its the equipment making you stronger not your own body getting stronger


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## Dig (Aug 28, 2007)

goe1988 said:


> Martin your a worl class equipped powerlifter, im just after your take on an argument we have in the gym a lot, do you (an equipped powerlifter) feel more proud of your raw lifts or equipped lifts? and when your numbers go up from meet to meet (as u learn equipment) *do you still feel proud knowing its the equipment making you stronger not your own body getting stronger*


I'm sure Martin will answer but to quickly point out that statement is way off the mark, most experienced lifters like Martin have the technique pretty much nailed or close to it so must get stronger to improve equipped numbers, your statement will more likely reflect lifters fairly new to equipment, even then getting stronger is still important obviously.


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## goe1988 (Sep 14, 2008)

that statement is not way off the mark, an while i agree it is more pronounced on newer lifters, it still holds true. its not uncommon either for raw lifts to drop an equipped numbers to rise.


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Is pretty far off  lol.

The equipment argument will always be there and I couldnt care less tbh. My numbers go up usually because I get stronger actually - I've been using the same squat suit, deadlift suit and bench shirt for around two years - and added 45kg to my squat, 50kg to my deadlift and 50kg to my bench. That's about strength increase.

Raw lifts don't count for anything in equipped lifting. I dont lift raw so I'd happily knock 10kg off my raw lifts if it adds 10kg onto my equipped ones. But it doesn't work like that and most people know it 

You cant be weak and have a massive lift in equipment - it just requires strength at different parts of the lift. It's almost different exercises.

Please don't shoot me down this is my opinion and I respect anyone who lifts either raw or equipped - but the strongest guys in euipment are going to be the strongest out of it too most of the time.


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## littlesimon (May 24, 2010)

The equipped v unequipped argument is just nonsense. Strong equipped lifters will be strong raw lifters, simple.

People seem to think you can just slide into a suit and hit a 250kg bench press. :cursing:

Its the same kind of mentality as thinking gear will turn someone into a 300lb monster with abs overnight.

Its basically a way of trying to discredit someones achievements.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

MarkFranco said:


> Yes but this is the strength and power subforum, and we dont give a **** about abs or body fat percentages or who looks the most **** in fake tan and there mothers g string, its all about lifting heavy ass weights


To be fair mark his comment about the bodybuilding forum was in reply to the guy mentioning logs and gear use to build muscle......and I don't wear a g string 



On The Rise said:


> Yikes didn't mean to ruffle any feathers with this post just thought it was quite interesting!
> 
> I thought this section here was the strength and power part for the 3 power lifts and high weight lifts..?
> 
> The junior records I find really interesting...also anyone that cares check out the womens records pretty sick lol


you make a post bragging about natural lifting more than guys who use gear, what reaction did you expect?

I watched some guys bench last week at castles gym (Gerry fox) assisted or not they where strong, they where using methods I had never seen with huge rubber bands, blocks and chains......

I have never understood why people like to make the comparison between bodybuilders and strength guys, there goals are totally different, of course you will get the odd few who will look like a bodybuilder yet be as strong as a powerlifter but these guys are rare.

I train for muscle growth not strength, yes I am stronger that average Joe but I am not that strong in some lifts even as a bodybuilder of my size.....


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## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

Yeah OK thats cool and your point of strength training over muscle training is true. I'm finding it hard atm to figure out exactly what route I wanna go down but ultimately at this point in my early weight lifting hobby I wanna get stronger and bigger. So the argument as to whether BB's routine or PL's routines would be best for is debatable. I'm also a little confused cause I would happily do abit of both kinda training to get stronger and also put on lean muscle but not sure how possible that is...


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Dagman72 said:


> There is a difference between powerlifting and bodybuilding.


This. /thread


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## Seyyed-Merat (Sep 1, 2007)

martin brown said:


> Is pretty far off  lol.
> 
> The equipment argument will always be there and I couldnt care less tbh. My numbers go up usually because I get stronger actually - I've been using the same squat suit, deadlift suit and bench shirt for around two years - and added 45kg to my squat, 50kg to my deadlift and 50kg to my bench. That's about strength increase.
> 
> ...


You just saved me a huge rant, x2 what martin said....


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## Team1 (Apr 3, 2008)

...But look how big you "could" get if you do take steroids










Taking the ****. Point being there is some good natural or supposed natural lifts there. Dont mean everyone could achieve that without steroids....just the same as not everyone could achieve that amount of mass with steroids


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## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

Well obv not cause they are records duh!


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## Ironclad (Jun 23, 2009)

Team1 said:


> ...But look how big you "could" get if you do take steroids
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I bet he struggles with 15K dumbbells... :lol:


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

On The Rise said:


> Well obv not cause they are records duh!


Yes and they can be broken and do pretty often......


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

On The Rise said:


> Yeah OK thats cool and your point of strength training over muscle training is true. I'm finding it hard atm to figure out exactly what route I wanna go down but ultimately at this point in my early weight lifting hobby I wanna get stronger and bigger. So the argument as to whether BB's routine or PL's routines would be best for is debatable. I'm also a little confused cause I would happily do abit of both kinda training to get stronger and also put on lean muscle but not sure how possible that is...


Lean muscle as opposed to what? Unlean muscle? Fat muscle?

Also, watch the big guys like branch warren, ronnie coleman and jay cutler etc train... they bench, squat and deadlift 5+ plates a side there strong and big... you cant get big supersetting and doing 21's with the pink dumbells


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Steven Scoular said:


> Don't forget that a lot of guys in non tested powerlifting organisations are drug free and strong too. Just because somebody competes in a non tested org doesn't necessarily mean they are on performance enhancing drugs.


same can be said for tested aswell...


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

MarkFranco said:


> Lean muscle as opposed to what? Unlean muscle? Fat muscle?
> 
> Also, watch the big guys like branch warren, ronnie coleman and jay cutler etc train... they bench, squat and deadlift 5+ plates a side there strong and big... you cant get big supersetting and doing 21's with the pink dumbells


agreed and no one is saying you will be weak if you are a bodybuilder but at some point most(not all) guys who want to build muscle will increase reps from singles, triples etc....

you don't have to carry alot of muscle to be strong just as you don't have to super strong to have muscle, it is all about training, diet and genetics.....Johnny Jackson is a beast he apparently the strongest Pro out there yet he has not placed top 6 in the Olympia or won any decent shows like the Arnold, he has been beaten buy guys less strong than him.....just guys have won power lifting comps that are not that muscle bound and are fatter than others.....

i certainly do not think bodybuilders are better than power lifters.....i just don't understand guys who show doing singles and triples when that does not stimulate muscle growth and they risk injury.....


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## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

MarkFranco said:


> Lean muscle as opposed to what? Unlean muscle? Fat muscle?
> 
> Also, watch the big guys like branch warren, ronnie coleman and jay cutler etc train... they bench, squat and deadlift 5+ plates a side there strong and big... you cant get big supersetting and doing 21's with the pink dumbells


Sorry I'm not as knowledgeable as alot of you guys and please dont misinterpret my posts as know-it-all arogance. I am more trying to stimulate discussion between you guys and learn as much as I can. When I said lean muscle I guess I thought by doing higher rep sets you burn more calories and put on more muscle:fat than by doing kinda 6-8 rep sets so giving you a leaner look, not actually leaner muscle. I hear people in the gym going on about 21s high rep pyramid sets etc so just trying to figure out what stuff to actually take on board and what to just dismiss as a pointless training regime which would be better left alone!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

On The Rise said:


> Sorry I'm not as knowledgeable as alot of you guys and please dont misinterpret my posts as know-it-all arogance. I am more trying to stimulate discussion between you guys and learn as much as I can. *When I said lean muscle I guess I thought by doing higher rep sets you burn more calories and put on more muscle:fat than by doing kinda 6-8 rep sets so giving you a leaner look, not actually leaner muscle*. I hear people in the gym going on about 21s high rep pyramid sets etc so just trying to figure out what stuff to actually take on board and what to just dismiss as a pointless training regime which would be better left alone!


no mate this is wrong, 21s would be used to increase the intensity for most......the optimum set range to build muscle in my opinion is 8-12 as long as you lift a heavy weight relevant for you you will build muscle, if your diet is decent you will also burn fat....


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

Pscarb said:


> agreed and no one is saying you will be weak if you are a bodybuilder but at some point most(not all) guys who want to build muscle will increase reps from singles, triples etc....
> 
> you don't have to carry alot of muscle to be strong just as you don't have to super strong to have muscle, it is all about training, diet and genetics.....Johnny Jackson is a beast he apparently the strongest Pro out there yet he has not placed top 6 in the Olympia or won any decent shows like the Arnold, he has been beaten buy guys less strong than him.....just guys have won power lifting comps that are not that muscle bound and are fatter than others.....
> 
> i certainly do not think bodybuilders are better than power lifters.....i just don't understand guys who show doing singles and triples when that does not stimulate muscle growth and they risk injury.....


The training is different for powerlifting and bodybuilding because the goals are different obviously but I think people all to often forget the biggest bodybuilders are STRONG as hell and some have better lifts than some powerlifters

Ronnie colemans 800lbs deadlift for 3 reps is one example... That is a massive lift for any one no matter what they do, i cant remember the guys name but he has videos squatting 500lbs for 20 reps.

Im not saying you have to do low reps and train like a powerlifter to get big but you certainly have to lift relatively heavy weights like ronnie coleman said "Every one wants to be big but dont nobody want to lift no heavy ass weights"


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

sorry mate but you give one or two examples as i have in previous posts... but it is not the norm yes Bodybuilders are strong but how strong is relative, there are strong bodybuilders Ronnie, Jackson, Branch to name a few but these guys have not lifted singles or triples to get that big.....i am sure you can name some very muscular powerlifters but they are not the norm.....

i know many guys who far far out lift me but have not got the muscle i have and yet they use more gear?? my genetics are not great but i am still bigger than them, yes it is hard to lift 400lb on a bench for 3-5 reps but it is harder to lift 300lbs for 10-12 reps(example weight) does that mean the person who lifts 300lbs for 10-12 is weaker than the guy lifting 400lbs for 3-6 reps? or does it mean he is lifting with more intensity and with his head as the risk of injury is less??


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## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

From a beginners point of view here is it not possible to combine the two to a certain degree? I mean mixing 3-5s with 10-12s etc etc can't be a bad thing can it..?


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

hell yes from a begininger point of view lifting the compound movements like

Squat

Dead

Bench

go for rep ranges of 6-8 to build a muscle base then go with the sport you like....


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

In reply to On the Rise this is what i do, ill use bench/chest day for example

Flat barbell bench ill use the set/rep range of 3x5, 5x5, 10x3 or 5/3/1 These also wont be to failure, and ill try increase each lift every week, not fussed about increasing reps

Then Ill do DB incline press 4-5 sets of 8-12 reps, these may or may not be to failure depending on the weight ive picked and how tierd I am

Cable flyes 4-5 sets again 12-15 reps and these ill try to go to complete failure

then some tricep work 3 sets usually fairly high rep


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## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

MarkFranco said:


> In reply to On the Rise this is what i do, ill use bench/chest day for example
> 
> Flat barbell bench ill use the set/rep range of 3x5, 5x5, 10x3 or 5/3/1 These also wont be to failure, and ill try increase each lift every week, not fussed about increasing reps
> 
> ...


Cheers mate Ima give sommin similar to this a go! Any reason why you dont go to failure-not even on the last set?

Im thinking of going 5x5 on BB bench tonight. Followed by maybe 3x10 on DB incline(get quite tired after bench). Then Ill do some cable flyes 3-4 sets I think and matybe some weighted seated dips or something!


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## Matt090 (Oct 19, 2007)

British Drug Free Power-lifting Association...... yeh drug free its a load of cr4p what about gh and peptides etc.... its never drug free


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## donpaulo666 (Oct 31, 2008)

I have seen many records broken. British, European and World within the BDFPA and the athletes who broke the records were not tested in any way. The athletes I know personally do not use BUT many do!!! If they will not test then cheating pricks will get away with it! There are non drug tested feds for these pricks to compete in but 1. they would get nowhere and 2. They would not get the sponsorship/backing from work etc. Cheating pricks, you know who you are!


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

you can be strong and natural yeah for sure.....But you can be stronger, bigger, and horny as fcuk with some extra test inside ya.......I know my choice.......


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## redneil75 (May 6, 2009)

thats the template for a good PL BB hybrid as far as i can make out. low reps on the compounds and higher on the assist lifts. i still cant understand weights put down in pounds though! means nothing to my tiny mind unless they are in kilos! lol


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

Exactly, why not mix the two and be a strong as fcuk bodybuilder who looks sh!t hot.....I dunno, something like me for instance.....


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## MarkFranco (Aug 26, 2010)

donpaulo666 said:


> I have seen many records broken. British, European and World within the BDFPA and the athletes who broke the records were not tested in any way. The athletes I know personally do not use BUT many do!!! If they will not test then cheating pricks will get away with it! There are non drug tested feds for these pricks to compete in but 1. they would get nowhere and 2. They would not get the sponsorship/backing from work etc. Cheating pricks, you know who you are!


YOU MAD?


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## kernowgee (Jan 30, 2011)

The 100m in the Olympics and the tour de france are as drug free as those BDPA records, wherever you have a record and known cheat the majority opt to cheat. I would treat it with a massive pinch of salt, reminds me of East German\Russion ladies shot putters who were nats LOL

The only people that are pure nats are those who treat Bodybuilding as a hobby and are not trying to beat anyone just pull a few girls and look good in the summer


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

kernowgee said:


> The 100m in the Olympics and the tour de france are as drug free as those BDPA records, wherever you have a record and known cheat the majority opt to cheat. I would treat it with a massive pinch of salt, reminds me of East German\Russion ladies shot putters who were nats LOL
> 
> The only people that are pure nats are those who treat Bodybuilding as a hobby and are not trying to beat anyone just pull a few girls and look good in the summer


Absolutely not true. I know Martin Duckett who has an awesome physique and is totally drug free......


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## kernowgee (Jan 30, 2011)

Robsta. I am not doubting you, but in truth the only person who knows if a person is clean is that person.


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

I agree, but when you know someone as well as i do martin you know he'd steadfastly refuse to take any AAS etc.....He's totally not for them at all.......now to incinuate that they all do, and he is a top natural competitor, is not on imo.....yes there are some cheating low life cnuts that need their eyes picking out with mcdonalds straws but not all are mate. Marting could go into any fed, natty or not and hold his own mate.


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## K1eran (Jan 9, 2011)

Very intresting thread! You could be as strong as an elephant and look like 1 an all lol :bounce:


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

bayman said:



> I know a fair few bdfpa competitors that use...


i have helped guide quite a few athletes through drug tests in the early 90s.. passing a drug test means only that- you've passed a test that looks for specific items, and the old faithful testosterone IS STILL the basis for passing drug tests as you only need to manipulate the test/epitest ratio... to a natural RATIO not level..

However, you can use peps and many other things and pass a drug test.. and fail by taking to much Jack3d.. LOL

But regardless, there may well be some large strong lifters, but I train for cosmetic goals, where my girl says "you look hot" not whether I can deadlift a car... because, who cares? I get no benefit from that... but looking good gets me laid


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## littlesimon (May 24, 2010)

> I can't help but get ****ed off when I read sh!t like this.
> 
> Sorry mate but that's total bullocks!


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## littlesimon (May 24, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> But regardless, there may well be some large strong lifters, but I train for cosmetic goals, where my girl says "you look hot" not whether I can deadlift a car... because, who cares? I get no benefit from that... but looking good gets me laid


I'm pretty sure your physique would reap the benefits of a 300kg + deadlift.


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## Robsta (Oct 2, 2005)

littlesimon said:


> I can't help but get ****ed off when I read sh!t like this.
> 
> Sorry mate but that's total bullocks!


Tbh I agree....


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## joey8s (Feb 21, 2011)

littlesimon said:


> I can't help but get ****ed off when I read sh!t like this.
> 
> Sorry mate but that's total bullocks!


also agreed, i very nearly went down the road of takin the juice after falling ill and losing 10kg in about 2 months, then my brother an ex-pro bodybuilder ended up in hospital cos he went a bit mad on the juice. since then im always going to be all natural.

i think the point people are missing though is that its not the steroids that make bodybuilders massive alone its the training they do, my brother weighs about 100kg atm and i weigh 65kg but i lift almost the same weights as him, often more in explosive work. he is still really strong compared to the average joe but i know i would rep him under the table on dips or pull ups, power to weight ratio is where its at!


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## Ashcrapper (Jul 3, 2008)

kernowgee said:


> The 100m in the Olympics and the tour de france are as drug free as those BDPA records, wherever you have a record and known cheat the majority opt to cheat. I would treat it with a massive pinch of salt, reminds me of East German\Russion ladies shot putters who were nats LOL
> 
> *The only people that are pure nats are those who treat Bodybuilding as a hobby and are not trying to beat anyone just pull a few girls and look good in the summer*


Half the lads who go in my gym take a boatload of gear to look good in summer


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## donpaulo666 (Oct 31, 2008)

MarkFranco said:


> YOU MAD?


What are you on about!?


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## donpaulo666 (Oct 31, 2008)

Robsta said:


> you can be strong and natural yeah for sure.....But you can be stronger, bigger, and horny as fcuk with some extra test inside ya.......I know my choice.......


Probably the best quote I have ever heard!


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## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

On The Rise, how much can you lift? Are you natty?


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## puurboi (Feb 16, 2011)

Arguably the best BB of all time was Arnie and he could still deadlift over 700lbs and squat over 600lbs easily and doing 450lbs for reps. He was big and the best BB and was strong, they SHOULD go hand in hand, people just get off track.

That is my opinion of it anyway


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

and you are entitled to your opinion but lets just be clear...in your opinion Arnold was the best of all time but in reality he was not....he did not win the most Mr Olympia titles, he had weak legs compared to his upper body and even for his time he did lack midsection definition when compared to his peers.....

why should being big and strong go hand in hand and what do you call strong?? is that not relative to the individual?? does that mean small guys cannot be strong as that SHOULD go hand in hand??


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## sully807 (Jul 28, 2010)

bayman said:


> Also, who wants to look big but not be strong? The two should go hand in hand.


many times bodybuilders have preached the mantra, its not what you lift, its what you look like you can lift. Bodybuilders look their best when they are their weakest, learn a thing or two about bodybuilding mate


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## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

Huntingground said:


> On The Rise, how much can you lift? Are you natty?


I'm 21 haven't been training long and am not very strong but plan on competing in a drug-free PL comp sometime in the near future(check my log in the progress/journals section if ya interested). I guess part of my opinion is based on the fact my dad was an ex PLer/BBer and was always natty and hes constantly tellin me stories about steroid users etc etc I don't plan on taking anytime soon but damn I would fcking love to give em a go maybe I will never try them until my dad dies or loses his marble cause I know he would be able to tell pretty easily if I started using and then refused to enter a drug-free comp lol...


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## Wardy211436114751 (Jan 24, 2011)

Ashcrapper said:


> Half the lads who go in my gym take a boatload of gear to look good in summer


Yeah I guess these are the people I have less respect for. Like my mate/training partner who used to train abit then took like 6 months off and started back up with me. First session back he tells me hes on the roids im like wtf you lazy idiot atleast go natty for abit an get your natural strength up abit first!


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