# Natural size building



## EXTREME

How would you two (our natty mods) go about a size building phase? What differences would you make to diet, supplementation and training compared to normal?


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## aka

exciting thread, subscribed


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## jonnymc

Good post doug, looking forward to it


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## SX Dave

subscribed ;-)


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## AChappell

I use a variety of different tools at my disposal during the building phase. I know a lot of guys will take different approaches, but the approach I take is based on my own philosophies, principles, knowledge and experience gained over years of bodybuilding, and I've done pretty well at it.

To get maximal results from your building phase you have to realise that growth is a multi variable triad: nutrition, supplementation, training, rest, injury prevention and mental focus are all essential to maximise growth for the hardcore bodybuilder. Lot's of guys will tell you it's 90% nutrition which to an extent is true but realise the other components are equally as important.

Now you don't all have to be hardcore bodybuilders to implement some of the techniques I use but understand the better you integrate some of these into your routine the better results your likely to get.

Now this is likely to be a long post so instead of me spending hours at the keyboard I'll post as and when I get the chance on each of the areas I highlighted as important.

Injury Prevention

Injuries will be directly linked to the way you train. Lee Haney always said "stimulate don't annihilate" he also said your better to train at 80% all year round instead of 100% for six months, really there are no truer words. I used to train really heavy and get loads of niggles and injuries, sometimes I couldn't squat for months. I now realise the mistakes I was making with my training. No one can train at 100% week in week out sooner or later it will catch up with you. So train within your means but that doesn't mean you should lift P**** weights either.

Therefore pre-abilitation should be an important training principle incorporated into my training program. I now warm up and cool down before sessions and I stretch regularly before and after a session. I also stretch and use a foam roller on days off from the gym. The greater your range of motion and the more flexible you are the less likely you are to become injured. hold your stretches for 20s to reduced stiffness and up to 45s if you want to increase your flexibility. Some guy's will tell you that it can potentially take the power out of your muscles, I don't really buy in to that, I'm not a powerlifter the evidence is anecdotal, show me some real evidence. Massage should also be an option if you can try to get deep tissue or a sports massage once a month at least you'll notice the difference, especially if your struggling to stretch.

Pain is a messenger, its directly linked to muscle and tendon damage, so don't exacerbation things if your training and feel pain. Remember bodybuilding is a marthon not a sprint, you've got years of lifting ahead of you, one less set of leg extension won't kill you in the long run. It will if you pop your pattella tendon though. Should you get a injury though never underestimate the power of ice, get it on yourself asap and keep it on for days. Inflammation is a bad M**********r! Your bodies own immune system will literally eat away at healthy tissue while it cleans up damage, it doesn't discriminate so put some ice on it and take some NSAIDS.

Of course injury prevention is directly linked to your training and the preparation you put into to planning, which is something I'll talk about in my next post.

In the mean time stretch, lift within your means, get a foam roller and a massage and if it hurts don't do it and for god sakes put some ice on it.


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## crazycal1

> Lot's of guys will tell you it's 90% nutrition which to an extent is true but realise the other components are equally as important.


my fave book brawn has 1 chapter on diet..

its served me well...

i like the stuff you post matey..

methinks everyone was hoping you`d share some magic beans with them lol..


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## AChappell

TheCrazyCal said:


> my fave book brawn has 1 chapter on diet..
> 
> its served me well...
> 
> i like the stuff you post matey..
> 
> methinks everyone was hoping you`d share some magic beans with them lol..


Thanks Cal, I'll try to keep sharing my experience and knowledge. I haven't read Brawn but I'm sure the message is the same as this, there are no short cuts.

I used to read a column in flex years ago that summed it up perfectly, I think it was Ernie Taylor who wrote it (well probably ghost written for him) it might be still going I'm not sure. It used to always end with the same. Are you eating 5- 6 meals a day , are you resting enough, are you training hard enough, are you lifting heavy enough, are you supplementing enough, are you using correct form.................If your not doing all that, your limiting your growth.

Training

Now there are a number of different theory's on training, high reps, low reps, single sets multiple sets and so on..........I think like many, I've read about almost every technique and tried almost every approach under the sun.

So which is best? Well they all have their place in a bodybuilders training program to a certain degree. I will say this though, I have yet to meet a good natural bodybuilder who has succeeded with the single rep system alone, employed by Menzter and Yates. Useful when your short of time, but perhaps not as the foundations of a mass building routine.

Myself I like to take a periodized approach to my training with the view of preparing my body for heavy lifting phases and hypertrophy phases, since like I said in my previous post injury prevention is vital. Now you can't train 100% all the time but you can get close for a few months to really pack on some mass.

A typical periodized approach would look like this:

July - Septemeber: 6 weeks, Endurance training 20 reps per set, low rest, high intensity, super sets. Split routine Week off.

September - November: 6 weeks, Hypertrophy training, 8 - 12 reps per set, medium rest, drop sets, Split routine Week off.

November - December: 6 weeks: Max Strength Phase, 4 - 6 reps per set, Push, Pull, Legs. Long rests. week Off, forced reps, chains and bands.

January - Febuary: 4 Week Powerlifting phase. 1 - 3 reps per set, bench, Dead, Squat, long rest. week off, forced reps, chains and bands.

You can alter this sort of cycle to meet your own needs. I also take a percentage approach implementing this sort of training when it comes to max strength and powerlifting phases, around 90% on the first week of a strength cycle and go from their.

Taking this approach I've managed 200kg squats, 245kg deadlifts, 145kg bench press, which are not to bad lifts and big weights = big muscles.

Now there might be a few reading this saying why would, you do a powerlifting cycle your a bodybuilder, that's fine I understand but, Rob Hope, David Hannah, Vicky McCann, and Liam Armstrong but to name a few are all top class natural bodybuilders its no coincidence they are also great powerlifters. While if you take a look at other natural athletes like sprinters and rugby players all have big legs all can squat phenomenal weight. So for a juiced bodybuilder it might not be essential to implement such strategies, for a natural I think it's important for multiple reasons.

Chiefly the effect it has on increasing natural hormone secretion via the strain on the CNS that these weights place.

A few points on exercise choice, form, rep speed, and advanced techniques

Exercise choice :- I always tell my clients if you can do it with a barbell instead of a machine, then go with the barbell. Compounds are best they stress the CNS to a greater extent causing a greater release of GH, IGF and testosterone. A few guys will say your body can't tell the difference between a machine and a free weight which is true, but your body sure as hell can tell the difference between load baring exercise and non load baring.

There is also a train of thought that you should keep your body guessing and do a different routine every time you enter the gym, now to a degree this is true, but the draw back of this approach is, you never accumulate weight in one exercise, so while you should change your exercises, I tend to stick with certain ones for 6 weeks and simply rotate the order in which they are performed.

Form is paramount, if it's heavy or light, your last rep should be a carbon copy of the first and you should always look to maximise a set by contracting the muscle during the concentric phase and keeping tension on the muscle during the eccentric phase. Usually the hardest way to do a exercise is the best way.

Rep speed is dependent on the exercise but generally it should be faster during power and compound exercises to engage fast twitch response fibres and slower during the the downward phase of the motion. Whatever your speed though, it should always be controlled.

While advanced techniques should be employed from time to time they needn't be used every session or every set. The main focus of my training has always been to overload the muscle with weight and good form always being the first point of call. If you manage to do that week in week out there is no need to consistently destroy your muscles.

Now Big Ron Coleman said there is no such thing as over training as long as you eat enough, there is defiantly such a thing as training too long, growth takes place out of the gym not in the gym so limit your time after all, training eats into eating time pardon the pun.

The longer you train the longer your body switches on protein degrading mechanisms and catabolic glucocorticoids so as a rule of thumb 1hr max in the gym, then it's time to get that all important post workout shake down your neck.


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## Brockyboy

^^^ lovin this thread ^^^


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## crazycal1

> Now Big Ron Coleman said there is no such thing as over training as long as you eat enough, there is defiantly such a thing as training too long, growth takes place out of the gym not in the gym so limit your time after all, training eats into eating time pardon the pun.


i havent met anyone NATURAL who`s eaten theyre way out of overtraining but ive met loads who try..



> I have yet to meet a good natural bodybuilder who has succeeded with the single rep system alone


due to my back probs i did actually grow my legs on pure singles :wink:

im not totally natural tho...just a dabbler..

i had to start out with a bare bar on blocks so it was raised..ended up at 255kg


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## calver11

Yeah I am enjoying this


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## jakal2001

im feeling this.... Thanks guys, for sharing useful information..!!

subscribed


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## AChappell

TheCrazyCal said:


> i havent met anyone NATURAL who`s eaten theyre way out of overtraining but ive met loads who try..
> 
> due to my back probs i did actually grow my legs on pure singles :wink:
> 
> im not totally natural tho...just a dabbler..
> 
> i had to start out with a bare bar on blocks so it was raised..ended up at 255kg


Good lifting Cal, I don't doubt you can get strong with such a method, but from a bodybuilding point of view I have yet to see guys on stage with that really hard look that comes with more sets. Most still tend to be somewhat soft that's why I don't rate it, of course there is usually more to it than simply that style of training.

The next topic I will talk about is nutrition and supplementation I think these go pretty much hand in hand, it's a massive subject so I'll split it down into the three macros for now and then I'll post a summary for maximum growth.

Some of my views and opinions will probably upset a few people on this subject and fly in the face of a few bodybuilding beliefs. I do however know a fair bit about nutrition through countless hours in classrooms, reading papers and writing them so believe me when I say I know what I'm talking about.

Protein: the first thing you have to about bodybuilding nutrition is that protein should be well in truly kicked off its pedastool as the most important nutrient for muscle growth. Quite simply it's not. When it comes to dieting or cutting weight it's role becomes far more important, but realize your primary focus should be on consuming vast amounts of energy rather than protein if you want to make serious gains.

The reasons are quite simple for one the habitual protein requirements of your average male or female is only around 50 - 60g per day, throw in some training or if your a world class athlete your still only talking between 90 - 120g. Throw some anabolics into the picture and again the requirements are simply not much greater again. Nitrogen retention studies by Tarnoplosky showed this back in the early 90s. Basically the stronger and more muscular you are the more you retain the ability to re-cycle aminos. The very principle of the free amino acid pool dictates that anything you don't use to build muscle or oxidized as energy will simply pissed out!

Now thats not to say you should bin the protein supplements and go back to a diet of beans on toast, but you should rethink your intake if your on excessive amounts, 1g per lb of bodyweight is more than enough to satisfy requirements and even still you could probably get away with around 12% of your total intake as protein and still grow.

By far and away a more important thing than total protein requirements is protein timing. Certain amino acid's namely BCAA are highly potent signalling molecules that can trigger protein synthesis and maximize anabolism via mTOR, insulin, GH and IGF-1 signalling. So you might be reading this thinking all the protein I'm eating is causing me to build muscle and grow, but actually, all that protein your eating is switching on the machinery to facilitate growth. Effectively allowing for a positive nitrogen or protein balance if you will. This is the reasons why high protein diets are so effective in building and retaining muscle, they create an anabolic environment. So with that in mind you need to think about when to take such nutrients, but what it's also worth knowing that optimal energy intake( i.e enough energy to satisfy both homeostasis, physical activity and work) also generates a situation of positive nitrogen balance probably via effects on ghrelin, growth hormone and IGF. At this point the penny should have dropped that eating a bagel might be just as effective as a protein shake or is it?

Well as I mentioned nutrient timing is important and switching on the anabolic machinery should be your main priority and focus throughout the day. A surplus of calories with the majority coming from clean carbs will do just that and keep your body finally ticking over at a positive nitrogen balance. However BCAA and Whey or which is high in branch chains can spike MPS to a higher extent than any other nutrient could possibly hope to so the best times to consume high amounts of whey or BCAA would be. In the morning fasted as soon as you wake up to reverse catabolism, prior to training, during training and after training. Protein synthesis is an energy expensive process that old saying you don't build while your in the gym is true quite simply you don't . Therefore form the time you start training to around about 2-3 hrs after exercise your effectively braking down muscle tissue while the building process is on hold. Thus adding protein prior to a workout, BCAA during and BCAA with your post workout will actually, stop breakdown out stripping synthesis. This is also an excellent strategy during pre contest phases.

It should be noted that you effectively have a window of around 30 - 60 minutes post workout where your metabolism where catabolism will be elevated significantly, so it's important to take advantage of this time to build muscle. A good post workout source should be a lean LOW FAT cut of meat. Saturated fats can inhibit the mTOR signalling cascade so something lean in the initial our should be your first choice, while PUFA from fish are anti inflammatory and will reduce the exercise effect. Bed time is the other time protein will be useful a slow digesting protein like cottage cheese, eggs or a supplement like Extreme pro-6 will again prevent anabolism and help you hold onto your hard earned muscle.


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## luther1

Very informative. Just to verify,my first meal of the day(breakfast) should be some sort of complex carbs followed by some protein? If i have two slices of wholegrain bread with peanut butter,followed by a Pro-6 shake,would this be a good start to the day? Many thanks


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## AChappell

I think you'd be fine to start the day like that, however bare this in mind too if you wish to get more out of your breakfast time, after all it is the most important meal of the day.

Ideally your best bet would be to consider protein timing a whey shake as soon as you wake up would be your best bet. This would be to immediately take yourself out of a negative nitrogen balance. 20g of protein from whey would be more than enough. Whey also spikes insulin and GH levels so I'd then wait around 20 - 30 minutes and then consume a breakfast high in complex carbs, like the wholegrain bread you've suggested and peanut butter. Personally for a mass building phase I'd be inclined to eat a whole lot more than a cupple of slice's maybe 5-6, but then your goals maybe different. Food also has distinct advantages over supplements something I eluded to in my last post ie the effect on anabolic hormones like CCK, Grehlin, GH, gastrin, secretin and neurotensine but to name a few hormones that are up-regulated by stomach distention. So a food source of protein such as eggs, which are also slow digesting, like pro-6 would be a better option from that point of view. Save the Pro-6 for bedtime.


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## GALTONATOR1466867927

Sorry about not replying.This is what i do

I keep my weight training the same one week heavy one week supersets etc. My cardio come down to about 30 mins 5 times a week before food. I have asthma and find the cardio really helps. Food wise I keep things the same 5 days a week as on diet just add in more carbs and fats and at the weekend I still eat 6 times a day but I have a shake when i;m out rather than getting in whole foods as it's just easier. Thast all really just a slight increase in food, a decrease in cardio and I also don't drink loads and loads of water like on diet. I only really get 5-10kg over contest shape


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## BurnsideNo1

Questions answered with every word for me! Can't stop reading so please don't stop writing. Thank you for sharing your experience, priceless! :nod:


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## andyboro1466867929

I suppose i should start by saying that im not natty but im following this thread because well - it still applies just as much in my opinion..

Quick question if you dont mind - I using fasted cardio at the moment to assist dropping BF - reading that would it actually make more sense for me to have a shake first and just drop the carbs?


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## AChappell

I'm glad you like the thread Andy. Being natural it's important to squeeze everything out of diet, nutrition, and planning to maximize results, using these principles in combination with the dark side will produce great results.

The fasted cardio comes back to the point about, protein synthesis and breakdown, but it should also be noted that metabolically there is absolutely no difference between fasted state or fed state cardio. A study in the states settled that argument. The study showed that fat oxidation was exactly the same when subjects were fed or unfed. So your actually putting yourself at a disadvantage and sacrificing muscle tissue when you perform cardio fasted. The old argument that your body uses muscle as fuel is also inaccurate in this instance, your body will ALWAYS priorities carbohydrates/glycogen and lipids/fats over protein rather your body will simply be using the protein to perform cellular functions to maintain homeostasis. Anyway moving onto the next macronutrients:

*Carbohydrates (CHO)*

It is important to realize first and foremost for bulking and cutting, CHO and fats are not your enemy and should not be treated like the bastard son of protein. CHO have many important physiological and metabolic roles and are utilised as a energy source while pentose sugars make up bases in DNA, thus they also have important structural roles. The very nature of bodybuilding involves the utilisation of metabolic pathways that primarily focuses on the use of CHO derived glycogen as it's main energy source and like I mentioned before will ALWAYS be priorities for the use of energy. So this idea that you could take aminos and our body would utilize them for energy while you exercise is really just nonsense.

Since we have established that CHO is your main source of fuel it's important to know how much to eat in order to meet your bodies energy demands and to avoid making the classic noob mistake, eating tons of protein and not enough carbs or fats (your body ends up using the protein as energy and you never have a large enough surplus to maximize growth). There are multiple ways you can calculate total energy intake the approach I would use myself and is most accurate is to calculate your basal metabolic rate (BMR) using the Sheffield equations -that is the minimum amount of calories required to maintain normal cellular function or homeostasis- using your lean mass. So if you can estimate bodyfat% (BF%) using skin folds or guesstimate your BF% from the mirror if your more experienced, simply subtract that from your current weight and you will have your lean mass. Then you need to account for the amount of work and physical activity on top of your BMR, once that has been calculated a surplus is required in order to promote growth. Like they say if you want to be a 100k bodybuilder you need to eat like one, or rather more than what you do at your current weight. This is were the approach becomes less scientific is estimating the surplus but from what I've read from various nutritionists like Chris Aceto, and Charles Glass and using my own experience 350 - 400 calories is enough to facilitate growth without accumulating large amounts of bodyfat and should keep you in the 10 - 15% range. The same 350- 400 calorie reduction is also interestingly usually enough of a deficit for cutting, provided you use this approach and create whats called a baseline diet.

Once you have calculated your total requirements CHO should make up 60% of your total intake with 20% coming from fats, Of course if you don't want to go through this process at the very least you should look to aim for 2.5g of CHO per lb of bodyweight. The type of CHO consumed is also vitally important for the bulking and cutting phase. Many guru's often tout the use of the Glycemic Index (G.I) and stress the importance of only consuming low GI foods. However talking to endocrinoligists who deal specifically with diabetics has changed my opinion slightly on this. Low GI foods should still be the staple, but these foods are rarely consumed in isolating, thus the G.I becomes obsolete really. The glycemic load (G.L) of the meal will change as soon as protein, fat or fibre are introduced so I don't worry about eating things like white bread, white rice or fruit and I'm lean 10% BF. That being said I still consume more complex starches as my primary source of CHO. Fast digesting CHO should be the main port of call following a workout and should be the only time they are consumed, because of their role in insulin signalling, IGF-1, GH signalling and protein breakdown suppression. However following a workout your metabolism is elevated to a greater degree than at rest, thus your ability to consume all types of CHO will also be increased and a product like build and recover would be ideal source of CHO following a workout. With the effects of slower and faster digesting CHO in combination with protein yet to be investigated following a work out. This remains a research area of particular interest to myself that hopefully I'll be able to do some work in going forward.


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## luther1

Hi,another great post. Is it best to consume a higher carb intake on training days then slightly reduce on rest days,or is that purely for the pro's to juggle their carb intake on on/off training days? Thanks James


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## AChappell

James RM said:


> Hi,another great post. Is it best to consume a higher carb intake on training days then slightly reduce on rest days,or is that purely for the pro's to juggle their carb intake on on/off training days? Thanks James


HI James, It stands to reason that because your exercising your body would require more calories, so think of it in terms of energy intake rather than carb intake. I generally eat more food on day's when I'm exercising in line with this.

Fats

This is a subject I could literally write pages on, the role of fats in bodybuilding is less well understood, as I mentioned before CHO are the primary source of energy in bodybuilding. However respiratory exchange ratio studies have shown that fats are utilised heavily as an energy source at rest i.e as your sitting at your laptop reading this. Thus fats should be regarded as important nutrients in helping you achieve your daily energy target. They also play important structural roles within cells and as signalling molecules and in the synthesis of hormones like testosterone from cholesterol esters and prostaglandins (important immune regulating molecules). With that in mind it's obvious they shouldn't be neglected, however fats are complicated by the fact the fact there are several different types, saturated, monounsaturated (MUFA), polyunsaturated (PUFA) and trans fats, there are also essential and non-essential fats.

Timing of fat's like protein is also an important factor that must be considered since saturated fats can negatively affect protein synthesis (another reason why cheat meals and fast foods are retarded). While trans fats are biologically altered fats that quite simply can't be utilised so will just end up stored in adiposities, i.e they will make you fat or clog your arteries.

Generally though you should consider fats as an aid, to help increase your total energy content, embrace them instead of avoiding them. I usually bulk up the calories in my meals by adding neutral monounsaturated fats from extra virgin olive oils, eat olives, or consume peanut butter. However too much fat will cause you to store some and a increasing waist line correlates well to lower testosterone levels. As a guide I make sure 20% of my total energy intake comes from fats, to prevent me accumulating fat.

Saturated fats are found largely from animal sources, so regardless of how much lean mince or turkey you eat, you should hit your saturated fatty acid target for the day quite easily provided you follow a typical bodybuilding diet. If somehow you manage to avoid saturated fat altogether don't worry your body can synthesis it anyway along with MUFA. They do play important structural roles butdon't emphasis them for the reason I explained above. Animal foods are also high in n-6 fatty acids like arachidonic acid and the essential linoleic acid (LA). So again consuming these in your diet should be no problem when following a typical bodybuilding diet, vegetable oils like sunflower or rapeseed also contain high amounts of n-6 fatty acids. It's more important to consume the n-3 essential fatty acid alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) found in nuts and vegetables or better still eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) or docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) found in oily fish. You can ensure your intake of these essential fats by consuming oily fish, or take fish oil capsules. I typically consume around 3 to 4 portions of mackerel or salmon per week.

Now there will be a few reading this smugly thinking I take Udo's/3,6 and 9 capsules/CLA or LA/ALA and that you'd be fine. The reality is you may as well be drinking a bottle of sunflower oil for all the good that's doing you. Those people that take flaxseed and eat lots of nuts are also somewhat misguided with this approach too if they avoid eating fish.

The fact is LA and ALA compete for the same elongase 5 and 6 dehydrogenase enzymes, with LA or n-6 being the predominately converted fatty acid. Thus if you take the two fats together your almost guaranteeing poor uptake of the important n-3 fatty acid, and an imbalance in your n-6 to n-3 ratio, which trust me is bad news for your health and bodybuilding. While ALA in itself is poorly converted (less than 5%) to long chain DHA or EPA acids that have important physiological roles. So it's easy to see why you'd be at a disadvantage relying on vegetable sources for ALA or consuming things like Udos oil. Now the reason why this imbalance will have a negative effect is the consistent inflammatory state this creates which is bad news for your blood pressure, and the reason people always site red meat as a being bad for your health.

Fat's should also not be eaten in and around workout's for one you don't want to depress your ability to synthesis protein and secondly even healthy fats like those from fish oils may have a negative effect on muscle building properties. This is via the anti-inflammatory properties that are found within fish, thus they could dampen the anabolic response associated with inflammation after training, just like taking NSAIDS essentially.

As for MUFA it's regarded as neutral i.e it won't cause you any negative health effects while most of the beneficial effects on LDL and HDL are the result of replacing saturated fats and n-6 PUFA, so you should consider these as a important addition to the diet, without worrying about if its good or bad. So embrace fats just make sure you embrace the right ones.


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## urbanenergie

Reduce your cardio, up your calorie intake, get more compound lifts and get more recovery between workouts, easy......


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## crazycal1

do you think this level of detail is really neccessary for a typical trainer andy?


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## AChappell

Hey Cal, I didn't really intend into to go into as much detail on a few topics but I guess I got carried away and just went with it. I seen this thread as an opportunity though to A)for me to put down a few principles which I follow and the reasons why I do in the off season B)Help build a reputation as someone who knows a thing or two about diet and nutrition C) make people realize that if they want to take things to the next level they should plan their training and think about their diets and D) get people into the natural bodybuilding section of the forum, hence with a informative thread.

A lot of trainers will be used to the mantra of eat a ton of protein and lift big, I see it everyday as a personal trainer I'm sure you do too and they always say they are struggling to grow. So I think explaining things like difference in macro nutrient breakdown , reason why different fats and carbs should be emphasized or why things are worth doing in a certain way.

Typical trainers can probably skim most of this and just read the take home points but the competitive bodybuilders seem to be technically inclined and always want to know the reasons why things work in certain ways so they can manipulate them. So I guess thats more the target audience.


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## crazycal1

lol you cool andy..

anything you say on here specially in this thread is probly gonna be taken as a must do lol..


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## luther1

I'm going to kick the salmon into touch as a post workout meal after reading that!


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## AChappell

I've been quite busy as of late with Uni work so I've not really been able to keep on top of this but I should be able to add a few more posts within the next week.

Natural Size Building

*Supplements*

Supplements are a bone of contention for many people, some people swear by them while other people quite frankly don't believe in them. Me I'm somewhere in the middle I believe in some while others are junk imo. While someone like myself is at a distinct advantage of being aware of the roles of all the aminos, lipids, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals and how they interact with our metabolism, its almost impossible to keep up with all the combinations of plant extracts and herbs found in supplements. The rule that if something is good for you, then more must be better does not hold true in this instance, too much vitamin A will cause your liver to fail, while too much vitamin E will cause a reduction in Isometric force production, for example, even so called superfoods like berries containing phytochemical-antioxidants are actually designed by plants to poisonous to animals. It is also worth remembering that whole foods will always be a better source of vitamins and minerals, with many synthetic vitamin and nutrient analogues poorly absorbed, while whole foods have distinct advantages over supplements in terms of releasing growth factors caused by stomach distention and digestion that is not seen when liquids are consumed. So before you go away and purchase the latest massfx 6000 anabolic protein advanced heat shock simulator in search of the 5lb of muscle it promises, put your cynical hat on for a second and think would a extra meal a day not be more effective compared to a 1% boost from a supplement. Anyway this is a subject that could be debated until the cows come home below is a list of supplements I would recommend taking during the mass building phase of a diet.

Protein Powder: There are several different types concentrate, isolate, hydrosolate's, whey, casein, soya, milk, egg and even beef. Your choice of protein powder will depend largely on your beliefs (soya vs beef), tastes(concentrate vs Isolate), and budget (milk and egg). Protein is quality is rated on a chemical score compared to an egg which has a complete amino acid profile, while proteins are graded depending on their limiting aminos. Whey is regarded as one of the most complete protein sources (well over 140% of egg) should should be a staple in the diet. Now I don't intend to go into the differences between the different types, especially with a expert like Extreme on the board but it's worth mentioning that, proteins from animal sources are better retained than that of vegetable ( the reason can be attributed to the quality of the protein) while casein tends to be the slowest digesting protein in a concentrated form so ideal for taking at night, unless of course it is hydrosolated.

Whey is the ideal supplement to take upon waking, pre and post workout to promote anabolism. This works mainly through the effects of the mTOR signalling cascade that directly stimulates protein synthesis, thus creating a positive nitrogen balance or retention. There is a theory about protein pulsing and the constant stimulation of protein synthesis but I would be going over covered ground that is included in the section on protein requirements. You can also get your hands on post workout formulas that are ideal for taking after a workout that contain a combination of protein, carbs and multivitamins. That will boost recovery compared to whey itself because of the effects of combined protein and carbs on insulin and grehilin on muscle protein breakdown and IGF-1 hormones. No research has been done on the effects of different types of carbs and protein combinations on these growth factors , so its anyones guess as to what your main carbohydrate source should be in the post workout shake but generally speaking fastdigesting would be better than loading oats in with some whey.

Casein as mentioned above is ideal for taking when going periods without a meal i.e when your sleeping because of its slow transit time it takes a long time to digest and therefore keeps the body in an anabolic state for longer. Many companies do combination proteins to decrease digestion like syntha 6, pro-6 and midnight express.Therefore a time release protein should be a staple in a mass building diet.

BCAA: The goal of any bodybuilder should be to promote anabolism to optimal levels for as long as possible and this is where BCAA come in, as I mentioned before in the protein section these aminos directly stimulate anabolism, no tracer studies have been done to suggest they are used as a energy substrate while doing cardio like everybody seems to think and as I pointed out earlier on glycogen is always the main source of energy utilized by the muscle. If you could afford it I would suggest consuming BCAA 10g with every meal pre during and post workout at a ratio of 9:1:1 leucine, isoleucine, valine. If you can't afford it then pre during and post workout is when I would priorities your intake.

Creatine: There are multiple different forms the original monohydrate, lipid buffered ethelester, alkaline buffered kre-alkylin, and now nitrates. Creatine has been around since the 80s and is one of the few supplements to have actually had a lot of research done on it along with BCAA, and protein powder. It also works, Your bodies ability to enchance its own natural creatine levels are very plastic, Ie you can increase them almost 2.5 - 3 fold just by weight training, the original studies by Harris showed though that the amount of creatine you can store is highly variable from individual to individual, and that supplementing someone who has already maxed out their ability to store creatine can't increase their creatine stores anymore. So think of creatien as something that allows you to keep your creatine stores topped up and to recover quicker after a workout when stores are likely to be depleted. Monohydrate has been proven to work just fine and is often used in scientific studies and has been shown to increase strength power, and enhance recovery, however anecdotal has also attributed it to side effects like bloating cramps, and dehydration, which is where other creatines come in. traditional monohydrate is known to be unstable in water and within the acidic enviorment of the stomach and thus degrades to a byproduct creatinine that causes the side effects. ethelesters, kre-alkylin and nitrates are suppose to tackle this problem. Now I would avoid nitrates like the plague since they are compounds found in meat when you cook them and are known to be cancerous, while the studies suggest kre-alklyn is better absorbed than ethelesters. Extreme, Scifx, and a few american companies american EFX all sell alkaline buffered creatine.

Fish Oil:I discussed the benefits of fish oil at length when I talked about fats so no point going over this, experts recommend that athletes should consume 3.0g daily, I'd go with one with the highest ratio of EPA, while avoiding ones that contain omega 6 and 9.

Multivitamins: Multivitamins should be thought of as an insurance policy and only an insurance policy, since many are poorly absorbed. You should be looking to consume at least your 5 a day which consists of 5 80g portions of fruit or veg, as the main source of vitamins and minerals. There is also no need to buy ones with excessive nutrient profiles since most of the water soluble vitamins will usually be p****d out, while the fat soluble vitamins can be stored and again will be P****d out. Anyone that follows my posts will also know that excessive intake can also cause a decrease in the adaptations to exercises i.e too many antioxidants results in a down regulation of the endogenous antioxidant defense system, mitochondrial biogenesis(the organelles that make your cells work) and insulin sensitivity.

That s my two cent on what I consider to be the most effective supplements used during a mass gaining phase, like I said above whole foods are always better, and you should limit your reliance on mass gaining shakes if you can have a sit down meal instead. Remember supplements are just that and these are the mainones I would consider using when constructing a mass gaining diet.


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## justheretosnoop

Jeese, when did you bunch become so bloody clever??! Ha.

A quick Q on the BCAA's: I must admit I don't take any at present. Are you suggesting 10g with EVERY meal or split throughout the day? Sorry to ask....


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## AChappell

No probelem I maybe never made it clear, yeah 10g ever meal, that amount has been shown to elevate MPS to a maximum level even in elderly patients with sarcopenia compared with younger individuals.


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## justheretosnoop

Ok so ideally you'd be looking at 6 x 1000mg tabs per day over 7 days = 420 tabs at what, about 10p per so £42pw then a few more for pre/during/post WO. You could easily be looking at £200 a month couldn't you.

As has been said, I suppose it can all be as expensive or inexpensive as you want to make it.


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## AChappell

There are probably cheaper ways to do it, and I actually recon that's a conservative estimate. Like I said if you can afford it do it that way, otherwise stick to taking them in and around your workout. Alternatively you could sprinkle leucine on all your food.


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## aka

is there really much point to take additional aminos with a meal that already has aminos? and will the two different sources of aminos (from food and powder) absorb together nicely? or is that for people with poor eating habits?

There are a few studies that shows that when supplementing with aminos, the best way to take them and most effective is by taking them by themselves two hours before and after you take a meal. which way aminos get absorbed best?


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## crazycal1

andy i assumed till i read you post it was a cut and paste, well done mate, good write up and read 

i thought most powders already contain BCAAS or that they used too...


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## AChappell

Cut and paste Cal, nope it's all off the cuff really I write it all. I've simply included all the topics I feel are relevant under each subheading for increasing muscle mass and then spilled my guts on them. You are correct that most powders contain BCAA, but it has only become apparent in the last 5 years the real advantage large amounts of BCAA or EAA for increasing muscle mass, which is why I suggest to add them in such large amounts. Your right Cal protein powder contains BCAA, whey actually contains the most BCAA compared to casein, soya, or egg and is but one of the reasons why its so anabolic. However no one should have to settle for mediocricy when the addition of even more BCAA or EAA is even more anabolic. I was actually reading a paper just this morning quoting that the optimum ratio for whey and EAA or BCAA post workout between 20-40g and 5- 10g respectively based on a meta analysis, so my previous post on supplements was bang on.


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## AChappell

@ Aka:

There are advantages in taking aminos when a food is consumed in isolation however foods are rarely consumed alone. There is a common misconception that certain foods lack aminos this is not the case with tuna normally getting a bad rap. Foods are said to be limited by aminos when compared to eggs, a point i mentioned in the previous posts, with tryptophan (used to make thyroid hormone) often being the limiting amino. So with that in mind even a vegetarian diet limited by aminos can be bolstered simply including things like peas, carrots, cereals, soya or egg (if the vegetarian is inclined) it's simply a case of protein combining. Given most of us are omnivours we habitually will consume such vegetables or grains in combination with a meat, fish or dairy source, resulting in a complete amino profile. Adding aminos to such a meal would be simply bolstering the protein content rather than completing a profile , in which case I put it to you, whats the point when you could eat more steak, chicken, fish or eggs. Remember there is a upper ceiling for protein synthesis once you consume a certain amount, more wont be anymore effective.

I haven't read those aforementioned studies so I'd only be speculating what method did they use to base the absorbance of the amino's by nitrogen retention, leucine or phenylalanine oxidation, radio or stable isotopes? I can already imagine methodological problems with trying to do such a study. More is not always better, how do you distinguish between the nitrogen of the meal or aminos when doing such a study? Taking alone and on a empty stomach would no doubt result in better absorbance.


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## mark_star1466868017

right Andy, i have been told recently, by one of the supplement company reps, that cod liver oil is only of any real value if you take it last thing at night, due to its very poor absorption. Do you know anything about this?

thanks


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## AChappell

I went over this in great detail when I was discussing fats and talked about omega 3. Your rep is talking nonsense, this is why there are so many bodybuilding myths people don't pick up books or listen to experts. Fat is absorbed highly efficiently by the lumen as chylomicrons before being taking to the liver for distribution and processing. There is no difference between fish oil or fish in terms of absorbance. while alpha linolenic acid and fats from vegetable sources are poorly converted by desaturase and elogase enzymes by comparison.


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## mark_star1466868017

thanks for that, i think i'll challenge him to produce some info on it, the next time hes in


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## Guest

A question on the BCAA statement. In theory, if someone was to follow your advice, they are taking anything from 60 grams upwards of BCAAs a day, while I agree that this will benefit the muscle building process, I have a queery, when cutting, would you count this as a protein intake? Just curious and would like your opinion, thanks.

Fabio


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## AChappell

That's a very good question fabio. I stayed away from talking about cutting diets but the approach to macronutrients is slightly different. If I ever get round to writing something on the topic I'll be sure to address it in the same detail. I would not consider BCAA as as protein intake since they are essentially only a monomer and not regarded as a protein molecules, so to answer your question no I would not consider this protein intake.


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## Dazza1466868025

Just read the lot great read and very informative


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## Dazza1466868025

I moved this to my other thread


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## webadmin1466867919

Think h and b vitamins should be ok if that's what you mean, beat check the amount in each though as these main stream places usually sell less for your money.


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## mark_star1466868017

dj2000uk said:


> Think h and b vitamins should be ok if that's what you mean, beat check the amount in each though as these main stream places usually sell less for your money.


remember its not just about apparent strength, its also the quality of the ingredients and fillers used


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## AChappell

A lot of questions on this thread guy's I'll post some info when I get time tonight.


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## Dazza1466868025

dj2000uk said:


> Think h and b vitamins should be ok if that's what you mean, beat check the amount in each though as these main stream places usually sell less for your money.


No the make isHolland and Barrett, the products are Omega 3-6-9 1200mg caps and Radience multivitamin tablets


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## liquidsnake33062

i am new to this posting and internet thing so this is my problem have been working out four days a week rotating muscle groups group i bought muscle juice for a whey i eat 6-7 times a day 3big meals 3-4 small ones drink three huge shakes a day lift heavy low sets low reps stop the shakes becuse i was getting bigger but it felt more like water weight than muscle went from 205 weight right back to 180 in 3 months of stopping shakes i am getting stronger but not bulking on muscle like i want trying to hit 215 to 225 iam 5'10' i am trying to do it naturally but the trainers at the gym and some people i have talked to say the only way i can get big is to roid up really dont want to do this but dont want to waste money on crap supplements that add crap weight i just need a new plan diet training program to get me where i want to be without cheating to do it i have worked my ass off for two years now trying to get bigger i have gained 14lbs in two years that i am happy with but cant seem to get bigger only stronger someone help me please


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## Piranha Smudge

U may need to switch ur diet up buddy and spread it out over the day!! U may think u getting the right. Utrients but from what ur saying u eat I'm guessing your not!! Start a thread in the Diet and nutrition section with a time breakdown!! People will then be able to help u a great deal!! U will push ur gains without gear I'm sure!! U may need to change your routine too u may have hit a plateau!!


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