# Starting Strength / Strong Lifts etc.... too much squatting?



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Firstly, I love starting strength and am seeing great progress and gains, but.... as I'm now starting to plateau on some of my lifts as you can't keep adding 2.5kg to the bar forever, I'm beginning to feel I'm not fully recovered before the next session.

For example, I'm meant to be squatting and dead lifting tonight, but my groin and hips are still stiff and sore from Wednesdays balls to the wall squats and my lower back still no 100% from Mondays dead lift plus all the squatting etc.

Is it my age (39)?

Am I doing something wrong?

Am I being a pussy or is max squatting 3 time a weeks something you can't do for extended periods?

I've been on the program 5 months now and other than the dead lift, am now creeping up on 0.25kg fractional plates to keep going, but I just feel permanently fatigued and 'beaten up'. Is that normal?

Do I stick at it or try and modify to suit what my body is telling me?

Just trying to gauge what is normal and what is not.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

yes it`s your age, stop been a pussy


----------



## gearchange (Mar 19, 2010)

First thing is to remember to feed the growth the more you progress the more you will need to be able to cope,secondly DO listen to your body and maybe have a few days rest,thirdly you could deload and use the time to go for it after xmas..It is all relative and you should act according to how you feel ,because if you just soldier on you will get demotivated and possibly injured.

Or worst of all turn into a pussy like saxondale has pointed out


----------



## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Try a deload week and see how you go afterwards, might need a bit of a layoff to recouperate.


----------



## i.am.ahab. (Sep 4, 2014)

squatted 4 days in a row last week..unplanned,got called to do classes,training and my own gym work..hit a new 5rm pb on the 4th day when i was struggling to walk up the steps to the gym an hour beforehand.

after you get going you forget about tiredness.however if its a case your failing making your numbers take a deload


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Thanks - I'll keep at it.

Just seems a little counter intuitive training sore joints, muscles and tendons whilst yawning and craving more sleep despite getting 9 hours and loads of food.

Guess I just need to man up.


----------



## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

eat more food


----------



## alekan (Oct 19, 2014)

Try Greyskull LP


----------



## Jamieson (Jul 11, 2014)

If your following SS properly, then I'm pretty certain you do not hit failure on any sets, hence you can train/squat 3 times a week. If you're hitting failure on your squat then you'll need extra rest days to recover, hence progress is slowing/stalling. Either add ion extra rest days or hold back on going to failure.


----------



## TommyBananas (Nov 23, 2014)

Squatting 3x a week is great, and fine


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

MRSTRONG said:


> eat more food


I am, and getting fatter week by week. (good food, too)


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Jamieson said:


> If your following SS properly, then I'm pretty certain you do not hit failure on any sets, hence you can train/squat 3 times a week. If you're hitting failure on your squat then you'll need extra rest days to recover, hence progress is slowing/stalling. Either add ion extra rest days or hold back on going to failure.


My understanding of SS is to keep increasing the weight week by week, session by session by 2.5kg per session, which is exactly what I've been doing - obviously you can't do this forever otherwise I'd be squatting 1,000kg etc, and I'm starting to hit plateaus of my natural current strength which inevitably will be training to failure.


----------



## L3rouge (May 24, 2014)

More rest time between leg days.... and.. increasing your weight by 2.5 kilo a session is completely unrealistic... and youre 39... start taking the juice


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

The Sweeney said:


> My understanding of SS is to keep increasing the weight week by week, session by session by 2.5kg per session, which is exactly what I've been doing - obviously you can't do this forever otherwise I'd be squatting 1,000kg etc, and I'm starting to hit plateaus of my natural current strength which inevitably will be training to failure.


well there you go then, that`s as strong as you`re going to get.


----------



## Kazza61 (Jun 14, 2008)

Maybe it's this business of putting your balls against a wall whilst squatting? Bound to hurt your form mate.


----------



## JonnyBoy81 (Jun 26, 2013)

A good business case for some test ...


----------



## Fishheadsoup (Apr 15, 2013)

If your going for strength mate, then the main thing ( other than food and rest ) is avoid training to failure on your big lifts. It's what a large amount of powerlifters do and means there able to train the same bodyparts more often.

You will find it a lot easier to recover and it won't effect your strength much at all. Save the balls deep everything in sessions to when your throwing around more reps


----------



## BestBefore1989 (Oct 21, 2008)

I found that once the weights started to get heavy, squatting and dead lifting on the same day over taxed me and as I always squatted first my dead lift progress suffered.

I dropped squats from that session and both my dead lift and my squat benefited.


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Interesting stuff.

Personally, I'm not interested in juicing, but each to their own and all that.

My current numbers are:

Bench 95kg

Press 51.5kg

Dead Lift 137.5kg

Power Clean 47.5kg (still perfecting good form before progressing)

Squat 85kg (been out with injury and taken ages to get form correct)

Been doing Starting strength since August.

With the exception of the power clean, the rest of the lifts are absolutely only fcucking just grinding out the last rep on the last set to save my life stuff with 5 mins rest between sets.

As you can see, the bench and dead lift aren't too bad for 5 months on the job, but the squat is still miles away as I've spent the last couple of months really trying to nail my woeful form so I know there's more to come - just got to get stronger.

As those numbers are far from impressive, natty or otherwise, I've surely got to aim to increase the weight - the only way is going as far as I can - i.e to failure, otherwise how will the numbers increase?


----------



## Bataz (Jan 21, 2014)

Only increase the weight when it becomes easy/comfortable don't just add weight regardless.


----------



## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

High frequency needs to be balanced out with lower intensity & volume. I made some of the best natty gains ever using 3x a week, full body, which was all heavy compound lifts (squats, bench, rows, seated press etc). This was at 45-46 years old.

You can't go nuts on this & hope to recover though. Two working sets of each exercise was all I did, and I did high rep one day, moderate rep one day & heavy low rep another.

I also found that I needed a week off every 8-10 weeks.


----------



## gaz90 (Jun 19, 2014)

The Sweeney said:


> Firstly, I love starting strength and am seeing great progress and gains, but.... as I'm now starting to plateau on some of my lifts as you can't keep adding 2.5kg to the bar forever, I'm beginning to feel I'm not fully recovered before the next session.
> 
> For example, I'm meant to be squatting and dead lifting tonight, but my groin and hips are still stiff and sore from Wednesdays balls to the wall squats and my lower back still no 100% from Mondays dead lift plus all the squatting etc.
> 
> ...


you cant just add 2.5kg every time and do 5x5 and expect it to work week in week out. -though it will work for a while.

If you added 2.5kg to your bench only once a month, that 30kg on your bench in a year!

theres a lot of squatting and deadlifting in that program. doing that much will beat you up imo. i certainly wouldnt chose that program. if you getting beat up on the program, why not cut it in half and do a weeks training over 2 weeks? or just squat once a week instead of 3 times.

training is supposed to make you stronger, but if your beat up and not motivated to even do a good training session, then something has to change.


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

gaz90 said:


> you cant just add 2.5kg every time and do 5x5 and expect it to work week in week out. -though it will work for a while.
> 
> If you added 2.5kg to your bench only once a month, that 30kg on your bench in a year!
> 
> ...


I guess I'm pretty absorbed in the dogma surrounding it and the pressure to stick rigidly to the program "Keep adding weight until you fail, then repeat that weight until you succeed for a max of three attempts, then of on the third session you still fail, deload 10% then tray again....."

I must admit, I'm finding it really tough.

On one hand I'm hearing that squatting 3 times a week is fine, on the other hand I'm feeling that once or maybe twice would be better...

Or am I just looking for an easy option?

The SS / 5x5 lark seems to get raves from so many quarters with so many people claiming it works - and yes, I've made massive strength gains from my pathetic desk jockey beginnings, but now most of my lifts are at my current max (apart from squat) doing warm up sets and then a further three heavy work sets for each exercise is taking it's toll.

Maybe I'm just being a pussy and need to suck it up?

I think part of me would rather ramp up across 5 sets in total per exercise - final set being the work set where I go for broke and try a little extra each time - lat set only, not all three work sets?


----------



## gaz90 (Jun 19, 2014)

The Sweeney said:


> I guess I'm pretty absorbed in the dogma surrounding it and the pressure to stick rigidly to the program "Keep adding weight until you fail, then repeat that weight until you succeed for a max of three attempts, then of on the third session you still fail, deload 10% then tray again....."
> 
> I must admit, I'm finding it really tough.
> 
> ...


there is no magic in certain set or rep schemes. what makes one person stronger will beat up another. keep this in mind when following somebodys program.

If you know that lifting heavy too often is beating you up and stalling your progress, then take a step back and fix it.

forget the dogma, and fck what everyone else is doing.


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

TommyBananas said:


> Are you eating enough, btw? Your squat number is low (but we know why, as you've explained your issues in other threads) but your numbers are not at a point where linear progression should have stalled, at least not stalled for a long time.


I eat clean and am getting fatter, put it that way.

Toped the scales yesterday at 16st 3lbs, although I am 6'4".

Currently approx. 23-25% BF 180-200g protein per day, rest a decent mix of clean carbs and good fats.


----------



## ILLBehaviour (Dec 20, 2014)

The Sweeney said:


> My understanding of SS is to keep increasing the weight week by week, session by session by 2.5kg per session, which is exactly what I've been doing - obviously you can't do this forever otherwise I'd be squatting 1,000kg etc, and I'm starting to hit plateaus of my natural current strength which inevitably will be training to failure.


when you fail to complete all the reps in a set more than once you are sposed to deload to the last successful weight you used then build back up from there.


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

ILLBehaviour said:


> when you fail to complete all the reps in a set more than once you are sposed to deload to the last successful weight you used then build back up from there.


Hmm.... I was convinced you had three attempts....?

I'll read up again.


----------



## sneeky_dave (Apr 2, 2013)

The Sweeney said:


> Hmm.... I was convinced you had three attempts....?
> 
> I'll read up again.


3 fails, 4th attempt is 10% lighter


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

sneeky_dave said:


> 3 fails, 4th attempt is 10% lighter


That's what I thought.

I normally nail it on the 3rd attempt, then the cycle starts again... :lol:


----------



## Kjetil1234 (Jun 10, 2014)

Overtrained.


----------



## swoliosis (Sep 28, 2014)

Google smolov and skeiko enjoy pain


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Kjetil1234 said:


> Overtrained.


Interesting.

So, if I've been following the program to the letter, does that mean that at age 39, it's just a bit much for me?

For the record I have a sedentary job so it's not like I'm on the go all day.


----------



## Kjetil1234 (Jun 10, 2014)

The Sweeney said:


> Interesting.
> 
> So, if I've been following the program to the letter, does that mean that at age 39, it's just a bit much for me?
> 
> For the record I have a sedentary job so it's not like I'm on the go all day.


stop worrying about age and all that bull**** IMO.

* Create a good program

* Perfect technique

* Individualize intensity and volume.

EVERYONE has to do this once they reach a certain level. Some sooner than others.


----------



## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

you said it yourself sweeney, if it was linear we would all be lifting 1000KG by now.


----------



## harryalmighty (Nov 13, 2011)

The Sweeney said:


> My understanding of SS is to keep increasing the weight week by week, session by session by 2.5kg per session, which is exactly what I've been doing - obviously you can't do this forever otherwise I'd be squatting 1,000kg etc, and I'm starting to hit plateaus of my natural current strength which inevitably will be training to failure.


youl surprise yourself with any linear progression program if your stubborn about adding weight and just get under the bar and give it your all. remember with SS you deload then if you fail deload again if you still fail you drop the weight 10% and work up again.


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

harryalmighty said:


> youl surprise yourself with any linear progression program if your stubborn about adding weight and just get under the bar and give it your all. remember with SS you deload then if you fail deload again if you still fail you drop the weight 10% and work up again.


I appreciate that and have made good gains - it's the soreness and strain bordering on injury that is absolutely only just recovered before the next squatting session that concerns me. I'm sitting here now on the sofa having not squatted since Friday and can feel every movement in my abductors and hip flexors as pain, yet I'm due to add more weight to the bar and squat again tomorrow making it worse, then again on Wednesday, then Friday.....

If that's how it's supposed to be - super, I'll crack on.... but I do anticipate another 6 sessions with my physio in the near future. :sad:


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Are you doing 3x5 or 5x5 at the moment? I'm assuming 3x5 as you said SS, right?


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Are you doing 3x5 or 5x5 at the moment? I'm assuming 3x5 as you said SS, right?


Yes 3 x 5

Everything else is fine, I'm just finding I'm not recovered within 48 hours to squat again.

Squatting tonight, flexors and abductors sore. Tonight can only make it worse.... repeat to fade...


----------



## Rykard (Dec 18, 2007)

are you eating and drinking enough? getting enough rest?


----------



## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

do you drink alot? (booze, not water)


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Rykard said:


> are you eating and drinking enough? getting enough rest?


Definitely eating enough - best part of 200 grams of protein a day and the rest is clean - just had two chicken breasts, broccoli, carrots and sweet corn with brown rice for lunch. Will have 3 boiled eggs mid afternoon and a decent evening meal with plenty of clean carbs and protein.

I've put on two and a half stone in the last 6 months and body fat is rising too.

I'm tea total and haven't put a drop of alcohol past my lips in probably 8 years.

I drink lots of tea - maybe 15 cups a day, plus water in my shakes, creatine and whilst training - I'm constantly pi$$ing and my pi$$ is almost always clear or very slightly pale yellow.

I try and get at least 7 hours sleep a night, sometimes 8 if the kids don't play up in the night.


----------



## Rykard (Dec 18, 2007)

when was the last time you took a week or 2 off?


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The Sweeney said:


> Yes 3 x 5
> 
> Everything else is fine, I'm just finding I'm not recovered within 48 hours to squat again.
> 
> Squatting tonight, flexors and abductors sore. Tonight can only make it worse.... repeat to fade...


As others have suggested, I'd try taking a week or so off over Christmas and come back refreshed then. But bear in mind that the linear gains of this sort of routine will inevitably come to an end at some point and you might just be approaching that stage. Smaller weight increases than 2.5 kg per session are another option to consider.

Well done on your progress BTW! I remember threads from when you started and at that point the idea of deadlifting 137.5 kg probably seemed a distant hope  .


----------



## Rykard (Dec 18, 2007)

i had to take 3 weeks of , holiday & injury, i have started back this week and my weights have NOT dropped and i went up on the second back session. so it could be you need a rest.


----------



## ausmaz (Jul 14, 2014)

First off mate, kudos to you for actually training properly hard on a proven programme! Ss, stronglifts, icf 5x5 all demand dedication and a ton of mental fortitude in order to get the most out of them... ok, heres my thoughts... firstly if youve been running this program a few months, deload.now. do nothing for one week but eat, stretch and foam roll multiple times daily, then knock 20-30 percent off your previous best poundages and work back up. Lastly you could look into more advanced programming like madcow or 5/3/1 which will give you more recuperation yime. Good luck mate!


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Cheers chaps.

I started SS in August and haven't had a break at all - never missed a session, never not attempted a PB apart from a few weeks out from the squat recovering from a strained hip flexor which is beginning to hurt again.

At the start, I couldn't even reach the bar for a dead lift, or get my hands to the bar behind my neck on the squat such was my terrible mobility, but with a fair bit of effort, I can now perform all the lifts with semi-decent form so I'm pleased with that.

But yes, I do feel I could do with a rest.

A part of me didn't want to rest until I'd reached:

Dead lift 140 - current 137.5

Squat 120 - current 85

Bench 100 - current 95 (stalled/injured)

Clean 80 - current 47.5 (still working on form)

Press 60 - current 51.5

On all but the squat I'm micro loading at 0.5kg per session as I stalled with the prescribed 2.5kg increase a good while ago.

My aim is to get a good solid muscular foundation and natural real world strength, then take these exercises into the higher rep range, add in dips and chins and with some diet, build a decent physique....

??


----------



## Rykard (Dec 18, 2007)

I would also suggest a session with a good sports therapist too, deep massage to loosen you up a bit..


----------



## Rich83 (Sep 12, 2014)

I found I got to a point with SL that my progress just stopped on certain lifts, especially with trying to get through 5 full sets of 5, this was partly down to trying to lose weight though.

Found that especially with squats I'm better ramping up to one heavy set, rather than doing the prescribed number of sets etc.

I know with Stronglifts they say to get to a certain weight and then move to madcow, which is basically ramping upto one heavy set, so not disimilar to what I'm now doing.


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Rich83 said:


> I found I got to a point with SL that my progress just stopped on certain lifts, especially with trying to get through 5 full sets of 5, this was partly down to trying to lose weight though.
> 
> Found that especially with squats I'm better ramping up to one heavy set, rather than doing the prescribed number of sets etc.
> 
> I know with Stronglifts they say to get to a certain weight and then move to madcow, which is basically ramping upto one heavy set, so not disimilar to what I'm now doing.


This is something I've considered doing, 5 sets in total, but starting light and going up in an even spread until you get your max weight on the last set.

How did you find it?

What impact did it have on you physically, mentally and on your numbers?

I quickly reached my limits on 5x5 so switched to SS 3x5 which I found more manageable.


----------



## Rich83 (Sep 12, 2014)

It's working wonders for my squat - I've always struggled with squats, to the point where I could bench more than I could squat.

Since changing it round a bit my squat is going up nicely, and that's bringing my deadlift up with it, bench I'm not fussed about at the minute as that was proportionally my strongest lift really.

As mentioned I'm tring to lose weight at the minute so only on around 1700 cals a day, which is no doubt slowing things down, but generally feeling fine with it.

Looking forward to seeing where I can get when I start eating a bit more!


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Rich83 said:


> It's working wonders for my squat - I've always struggled with squats, to the point where I could bench more than I could squat.
> 
> Since changing it round a bit my squat is going up nicely, and that's bringing my deadlift up with it, bench I'm not fussed about at the minute as that was proportionally my strongest lift really.
> 
> ...


Yep - my squat is currently very low at 85kg, where I can bench 95 - or at least I could before my shoulder injury.

I'm piling the weight on at an alarming rate though - at some point I'm gonna have to cut back otherwise I'll end up strong and fat.


----------



## Rykard (Dec 18, 2007)

the other thing to consider is your warm up sets - are they too heavy, light, too many reps?


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Rykard said:


> the other thing to consider is your warm up sets - are they too heavy, light, too many reps?


If I'm benching for example, I'll do:

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

[email protected]

3 x [email protected] - or whatever my PB is - never more than a 20kg jump.

Same for my other lifts with appropriate jumps. DL starts at 60kg for example.

I'll leave about 1 minute between warm up sets and rest 5 mins between work sets.


----------



## Rykard (Dec 18, 2007)

I pyramid down on the warm ups, last set is a single rep, in yours you've done 20 reps before you start. I think there was an article on t nation a while back


----------



## The Sweeney (May 8, 2014)

Rykard said:


> I pyramid down on the warm ups, last set is a single rep, in yours you've done 20 reps before you start. I think there was an article on t nation a while back


Good point, well made.

I feel I need to do this on my squat as I'm still making sure my new found form stays true, but I did try it on my bench tonight which despite having a fcuked shoulder (see other thread) I managed to get 5,5,4 reps out at my PB of 95.5. So got one more session before I have to de-load - I'll nail it next time if I pyramid down again on the warm up - although quite how I managed to pull my ham string on my bench press I'll never know :lol:

Oh, an I PD'd my squat tonight.


----------



## harryalmighty (Nov 13, 2011)

The Sweeney said:


> I appreciate that and have made good gains - it's the soreness and strain bordering on injury that is absolutely only just recovered before the next squatting session that concerns me. I'm sitting here now on the sofa having not squatted since Friday and can feel every movement in my abductors and hip flexors as pain, yet I'm due to add more weight to the bar and squat again tomorrow making it worse, then again on Wednesday, then Friday.....
> 
> If that's how it's supposed to be - super, I'll crack on.... but I do anticipate another 6 sessions with my physio in the near future. :sad:


or just squat twice a week?

3x5 on both of those days.

also with regard to warm up, as above do less.

warmups for me would go

bar 5 reps

60% of work weight x5

70% x3

80% x1


----------



## theBEAST2002 (Oct 16, 2011)

Try the following:

Increase calories, in particular protein. Are you having a post w/o shake? Are you using casein before bed?

Stretching, massaging and foam rolling - are you doing any of these? If not, start.

A deltoid week would be a good way to quickly reset you body and then commence all of the above when you're back at the gym.


----------

