# HGH / Insulin / IGF



## kingtung (Aug 12, 2013)

*This whole thread was written by a good friend of mine (kingtung), im posting it on his behalf. Hope you enjoy the read.*

Ok so this will probably be a lengthy post, didnt have the time to post it before. I will try to make it as concise as possible without getting into the complex mechanisms of action behind certain things. Please do respect the time/effort taken to create this thread. Alot of you know as been very logical in how i approach things (i enjoy dumbing down alot of complex concepts). 'Logic' is sometimes flawed in bodybuilding especially with the 'lift big to get big' (etc type of bull****). So the only way to seive truth out of rubbish is through calculated experiments (trial/error) and recording findings and comparing them relative to seemingly logical information out there.

*HGH:*

Pretty much a miracle peptide, it will literally make you feel 16 again. I cannot give enough credit to this amazing peptide.

To illustrate the non muscle-mediated effects (personnel; im very fine tuned with my body):

The morning boners, extreme high levels of libido and lower-refractory period (the time period where you 'ejaculate' and get 'up' again), the amazing skin texture (women wont be able to resist), the nail growth, the hair growth, the deep 'REM' sleeps, higher level of IQ and intelligence,the re-uptake of GABA receptors (especially in my case since i fried mine due to EQ and abuse of androgens); hence general 'mental well being and less anxiety and clearer mindset.

Also better blood work (cholesterol values and the likes). Aswell as making other drugs feel more (ie taking biotin a hair growth supplement + HGH and youll have greater 'rates' of growth then without it). That is gh is synergetic with many many compounds (T3/fat burners and ofcourse AAS which is discussed below).

Will also develop facial beauty (cosmetic side-effects): more pronouced jaw line (square head), higher cheek bones, muscles around eye socket thicken up, more andorgenic siddeffects in general. You pretty much start looking very 'masculine'.

Massester muscles and the temporalis being prime examples:



















Other facial muscles (not mentioned above that will develop):










*HGH for mass (ie bodybuilding):*

Now in regards to muscle growth, hgh has various pathways in which is acts as an anabolic peptide (anabolic means build up of complex structure from smaller more simple structures in science; fat build up from fatty acid is also anabolic). So be careful how you use the word anabolic. Now in regards to 'positive' anabolic growth (muscle), HGH is primarily mediated by IGF, but has other effects, it has its own fat burining properties (hence the synthesis of peptide frag 171-196), it induces lipolysis (fatty acids stored within fat cells are broken down released in blood). It has positive effects on hypertrophy. It also makes alot of gear feel 'more', for example if your on 500mg of test-e it will feel like 1000mg (insulin wont do this; ive tried both). If your not on HGH; cap your dose at 1,5gram (2grams TOPS; orals included). Im telling you ive taken 3600mg of eq (perm fried my gaba receptors and now have anxiety-attacks very easily) and 2100mg of tren, smashed grams and grams of test. All these will do 1 thing; lethargy and you regress backwards. If you think the pros in the 70s didnt abuse your delusional; they all did, but they learn to read their body and found out at 2g+ without HGH alot of sides:gains ratio drops.

In summary it will add muscle slowly (on it's own; study posted below a rare and interesting one), but that's not what the main use is. GH makes you look like you have a lot more muscle than you do. Remember it's an amazing compound in terms of decreasing bodyfat while increasing fullness (thus roundness). So when you're sub 8% bodyfat and your muscles are full, 190lbs looks like 220, and you look impressive. If you are confused by fullness (ie roundness), think your first cycle of dbol (but at a much lower weight). Basically means alot of nutrients (glycogen, positive nitrogen retention, intramuscular water, intramuscular fat all in one spot: your muscles, ie plumped up baloon that gh15 always talks about hence phil-insulana). lol.

*
Doses (gh15 describes it very well):*



> 4-6iu is base for any local. no matter age. 23 year old will thikn it was not worth it ....40 year old will win the local show and go to the regional show...
> 
> 7-10iu is for advanced amatuers...those are the ones with potential to win a pro card but! it depends on many factors such as how legit is their other hormones and how serious they are when it come to bodybuild,, 7-10 iu still does not make a mutation
> 
> ...


 Now your maybe thinking, time for me to sell my car and use 15iu+ of gh. Wrong, if your not using insulin (esp at the 10-15iu mark), it will be a huge waste. Ive used 20iu+, 40iu a day for 2 weeks. Your liver will begin to swell up, youll be sleeping all day, cannot go to the gym. Blood glucose levels will be out of whack (gh increase BGL, insulin drops it; hence why they work together; more on that later). If your planning on keeping clean classic physique with 'dense' muscles (not inflated insulin muscle), use gh only around 5-10IU mark.

A nice quote by gh15 (and a friend of mine once mentioned something very similar he said this about HGH "once you start that **** your never coming off, because you never stop growing on that stuff"):



> if you fellas do not notice anything within 2 week on gh ,,you dont use legit gh ,,2 weeks shoudl be major increae in weight and size almost 15 lb if taken with steroids then week 3-4 drop in water and from then on body compsition change on regular basis ,,you may start at 220 climb to 240 ...then drop to 230 and look completely different,,from then on you may drop to 220 and then even 215 ....butu your body fat will drop with it and your size iwll increase with it so eventhough look less on scale you will loolk bigger in the mirror and in reality! which will give you what bodybuild is truly AN ILLUSION,,add insulin for complete mutation and actual increae weight on scale into marshmelo heavn





> This study is originally from Dats board i would not normally copy the whole thread but i feel this just proves that IF everything else is on par (study was carried out conditioned athletes) so as i have said for years when you have reached a decent level with your physique where you know what you are eating, training hard and getting the rest you need then GH is a great addition..
> 
> demonstrating positive body composition changes in highly trained athletes w/ 2g/kg per day protein intake & 8iu of GH 3x per week (EOD), w/ no other compounds.
> 
> ...





> Dat's Comments:
> 
> The above study is one of those rare studies that is directly applicable to bodybuilding. One to add to your knowledge base.
> 
> ...


 *HGH gut (myth) and visceral fat:*

Visceral fat: its what alot of people refer to as 'THE GH GUT', visceral fat is a description for fat inbetween internal organs (esp where IGF receptors are highly concentrated near the abdominal area). You look 'flat' from front view, but when you sit down to eat and look at your self in a side-view you look like you swallowed a 60inch tv screen (ie protuding gut).



> GH (is proven) to cause depletion of visceral fat, as it acts as the antagonist of insulin. Also greatly reduces abdominal fat, so for most people gh = anti-gut. GH in the realm of ~5iu (+/-) will have your abs and stomach looking amazing (this assumes its is used by itself). For the general population gh gut is an impossibility. However very unlikely GH gut is still possible, tho it would take a very long time of hGH abuse (causing growth of internal organs).
> 
> Now, what it usually is is insulin gut (reason why alot of our aussie bodybuilders look like **** because they cant afford gh, so they abuse insulin), or if you want to be a bit more pedantic in regards to everything insulin + gh gut.
> 
> ...


 In summary of the above quote; gh makes your stomach look beautful and the chances of the dreaded 'turtle hgh gut' is all a myth. Again hgh increases fullness so with a lean 6 pack, youll look 'good'. If you want to destroy this 'aesthetic' feature, up your food (huge amount of food also cause a gut; due to clogging up of insides and hence 'beer' belly, ie super relax and protuded 'deep' muscles) and up your slin. So combining food + slin, disaster from both worlds.


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## kingtung (Aug 12, 2013)

*Insulin:*



> It is not the most anabolic hormone ever. The most anabolic hormones are testosterone based steroid hormones and IGF (no not the stuff that you can buy online). That's it. Insulin in and of itself is useless. Only as a way to augment these hormones can it promote the most anabolic environment.





> Don't let your your 'disposable' income dictate your cycle
> 
> We're all consumers in the end right? We're all smart enough to look for the best deals, the best, most efficient, often cheapest, way to get from A to B. Unfortunately this can sometimes short change you in reaching your goals as it can cause you to take 1 step forward, 2 steps back.
> 
> ...





> To sum it up, insulin is neither here nor there. It shouldn't even be relevant discussion unless you all are competing bodybuilders. Insulin became popular because of the internet. And once the juicers saw another anabolic compound besides GH they looked with joy, and OMG! look how cheap it is! And what? I can get it from Walmart?? Sign me up.
> 
> You'd be seriously making a mistake by using insulin. It has no place unless you are already on gram levels of AAS and double digit levels of GH. It can and will ruin a physique. It's only become appealing because of it's pricing and availability and the fact that you'll gain about 10lbs of intracellular water once on it (and immediately lose it once you come off). What you can accomplish with AAS and GH is more than enough. Unless you want to compete at over 220lbs on stage, don't be lured by insulins false promises and price tag. It's a disgusting compound. Look at the Pros of the 90s and look at the Pros of today, You'll see the difference of AAS + GH and AAS + GH + Slin.


Now as previously mentioned HGH makes alot of things work better (synergy), but this is especially the case with insulin, and what happens is simple:

massive hGH + massive insulin = massive levels of IGF = massive growth

This relationship, which does not occur naturally as GH is the antagonist of insulin (GH acts as an antagonist to insulin in many ways. Exo Insulin lowers BG, exo HGH increases it. Insulin stores fatty acids into cells, hGH releases it) is what causes the liver to dump massive massive amounts of IGF. This is why gh15 is always crazy about 'kigtropin' primarly because it was thought to be real igf-lr3 receptor grade (which i think the chinese accidently stumbled upon, since insulin derivatives can be a byproduct of hgh production).

FDA approved igf:










*Important notes regarding insulin:*



> Alot of bull**** in here, trust me, ive followed it and became fat **** and had a load of visceral fat to lose.
> 
> 1) Never used slin without GH, it can work but the effects are NOT worth it. With gh, youll blow up like nitrous oxide with thickness everywhere, im on 20-30IU of gh a day (high quality generics), and it works wonders. Without gh 30IU of slin tops, with gh you can go up as gh makes you slin resistant. Atm on the gh on im on, i shoot 20IU twice a day, and have a 300ml can of redbull then later 1 hour down the road protein shake and i dont go hypo.
> 
> ...


*Protocols:*

Insulin has 2 primary ways of growth;

1) IGF

2) Nutrient utilization/partitioning.

If your going for the IGF route whilst keeping nutrient utilisation at bay (since this is another way slin adds visceral fat), Id opt for protocol #1 (assuming you dont want to be an insulinogenic balloon and destroy your lines; not #2, since that is for size. Remember in general carbs are they key to growth; so combining that with insulin (which relies on carbs), you got the potential for growth (not necessarily beautiful if abused however).

Protocol 1:

Mon/Wed/Fri (higher carb days). Each day consists of 3 shots of insulin. Each shot of insulin 12-15IU (total: 36-45iu a day) Have a hydrolysed protein 30 min before hand. Inject, have a 300ml orange juice with like 15gram glutamine (it is the one thing that you can simply take with juice and never go hypo on insulin. It is a glycogenic amino acid (that is it stabilizes blood sugar levels even in the presence of high insulin levels). You can add like 5gram creatine if needs be. Drink your orange juice over 1-2 hour period. After that have like a complex carb meal (cup of white/brown rice with chicken breast). This is the 'safest' way not to destroy lines (ofcourse assumes your using hgh with it).



> "I remember 5-6 years ago my close friend has worked with Chad for the offseason (was palnning to work precontest too but had an injury at the end of offseason). So, he shared Chad ideas with me, actually I was doing almost the same as he was told to do by Chad and I've to say that I have had the most productive offseason ever, went from 220-230 to solid 275 in 6 months...gear wise it wasn't somth special - just basics, that I was doing the last 5 years, but he new gains I made was due to introducin slin into my regime...slin and a lot of carbs, simple carbs. Was using humulin-r 3-4 times a week, on those days had tons of sugars as well, my diet looked smth like this:
> 
> hum-r (wokored up to 16IU)
> 
> ...


I only have 1 photo of when i was on hgh+slin (sorry for lightning; but you can see what i mean regardless):










Mind you i only used slin for 1 week and 'blew' up, was on 20iu of gh for 3months prior. Didnt like slin; too fake for me. Esp glyocgen supercompensation; i knew half of it wasnt real.

Improper use of insulin (leads to estrogenic fat deposits; due to higher fat build up hence aromatization, aswell as visceral fat). Learn the hard way:










Was like on 1gram test there, 60iu of slin + 600gram dextrose (1iu=10gram rule). No hgh. I had ~40inch waist here.


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## kingtung (Aug 12, 2013)

Bump.


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## Zmoney (Aug 27, 2013)

Came across this while searching about synergistic effects of HGH and AAS, and it was very interesting. Even though this doesn't rate peptides for some reason, I've been using saturation doses of GHRP/GHRH 2-3x a day for last week while cruising on 250mg Test E and I already look and feel leaner around the midsection. The peptides give a more natural release of growth, they make your pituitary dump it all in your blood as it should be done so why wouldn't that be the better alternative to jabbing exogenous HGH into your skin?


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## Fina (Dec 26, 2004)

Good read, thanks


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