# How much carbs post-workout on a cut?



## Big Pumpa (Feb 29, 2008)

Evening peeps.

How much carbs would you say are necessary on a cutting diet post workout including both your post-workout shake and your meal 1 hour after?

I'm 5'9, 90kg and I currently have 30g dextrose post (30g carbs) and then another 35g carbs from 50g brown rice. So is 65g carbs enough?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Enough for what?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

65g is to much if you're on a zero carb diet...

what i mean is depends on what diet you're following...

Also read a book called the "4 hour body" by Tim Ferriss... seems post workout nutrients are best taken pre-workout to be ABSORBED by the end of the workout.. quite a bit of empirical evidence for this in the book... I note they've been selling the book in GNC lately, but i got mine on amazon (also seen in WH smith) interesting read! (guy implanted a glucose meter, and got readings every 5 mins!)


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## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

bayman said:


> Enough for what?


restore glycogen after a workout??


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

s3_abv said:


> restore glycogen after a workout??


depends, how depleted is your glycogen? did you start with a depleted liver? did you do a full body depletion work out?

If you're really depleted 1g per kilo LBM... if not, prob half that.. depends how that fits your diet goal..

are you natural? if not, there's no need for pwo carbs to retain muscle..

if you are natural, (even if not) you may consider carbless insulin pwo: 1-2iu with 50g whey protein- 'slin drives protein into the muscle cells along with some blood sugars, but you do not need extra carbs on this protocol- google carbless post workout insulin..


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## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

s3_abv said:


> restore glycogen after a workout??


You've much to learn mate, I was the same a while back.

I'm sure bayman will enlighten you


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

big_pumpa said:


> Evening peeps.
> 
> How much carbs would you say are necessary on a cutting diet post workout including both your post-workout shake and your meal 1 hour after?
> 
> I'm 5'9, 90kg and I currently have 30g dextrose post (30g carbs) and then another 35g carbs from 50g brown rice. So is 65g carbs enough?


there is no set amount mate it all depends on your diet.....there will be those that dont use carbs post workout and those that do.....i have done both ways and prefer with carbs but that is just me......

when on a cut many like to keep there carbs around the workout it really all depends on you and your diet...


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## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

Fullsquat said:


> You've much to learn mate, I was the same a while back.
> 
> I'm sure bayman will enlighten you


I'm all ears (well ready to read lol)

Bayman was telling me to keep carbs around workout pre/post as i'm on a low carb diet (200g carb) so i split the 200g into breakfast/pre/pwo. Not sure if i need 200g tho


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

If you're going to have carbs on a low carb diet, then having the bulk around workout is sensible, yes. I won't argue with that.

However, my question for the OP would be: Why the need for simple carbs PWO at all when cutting?

Unless you're an athlete, or needing to perform multiple exercise bouts per day, speed of glycogen replenishment is unimportant. People should really let that one sink in.

Your diet will also achieve this (glycogen replenishment) anyway over the course of the next 24hrs; plus glycogen replenishment is not dependant upon / limited by insulin, and therefore the need for spiking insulin with simple carbs is questionable anyway.

Then you have the whole issue of glycogen levels on a cutting diet. They're always going to be sub-optimal by the very fact you're limiting nutrients whilst dieting, carbs often more than others too. And if glycogen replenishment is not dependant upon insulin then why not "spend" those calories and carbs allotted for simple sugars on wholefoods that are going to be more filling and nutritious - again, important whilst dieting.


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## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

bayman said:


> If you're going to have carbs on a low carb diet, then having the bulk around workout is sensible, yes. I won't argue with that.
> 
> However, my question for the OP would be: Why the need for simple carbs PWO at all when cutting?
> 
> ...


Really good post that cheers.

So you don't need simple carbs to restore glycogen? I thought simple carbs were used for liver glycogen and complex for muscle. Is the main reason for restoring glycogen levels to build muscle?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

s3_abv said:


> Really good post that cheers.
> 
> So you don't need simple carbs to restore glycogen? I thought simple carbs were used for liver glycogen and complex for muscle. Is the main reason for restoring glycogen levels to build muscle?


Simple carbs will restore glycogen, yes, but the speed at which you restore glycogen is unimportant if you're not needing to exercise / perform again the same day. Muscle building is a much longer process than glycogen replenishment, and as I've said, the latter is not dependant upon spiking insulin levels with simple carbs.

Liver glycogen is important to restore as you said, but you don't specifically need simple carbs to do this, although fruit would be an ideal choice as fructose preferentially tops this up.


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## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

bayman said:


> Simple carbs will restore glycogen, yes, but the speed at which you restore glycogen is unimportant if you're not needing to exercise / perform again the same day. Muscle building is a much longer process than glycogen replenishment, and as I've said, the latter is not dependant upon spiking insulin levels with simple carbs.
> 
> Liver glycogen is important to restore as you said, but you don't specifically need simple carbs to do this, although fruit would be an ideal choice as fructose preferentially tops this up.


Ok so what happens when on a keto. How does the liver/muscle glycogen get restored when the re-feed is usually on the 7th day? Or like you said it's unimportant when it get restored.

Cheers for making all this clear, you've been a great help the last few week!


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2011)

bayman said:


> Simple carbs will restore glycogen, yes, but the speed at which you restore glycogen is unimportant if you're not needing to exercise / perform again the same day. Muscle building is a much longer process than glycogen replenishment, and as I've said, the latter is not dependant upon spiking insulin levels with simple carbs.
> 
> Liver glycogen is important to restore as you said, but you don't specifically need simple carbs to do this, although fruit would be an ideal choice as fructose preferentially tops this up.


good post but the op didnt say what the pwo carbs were for, most probably for an insulin spike to shuttle aminos into muscle cells like when in mass building phase. not saying i agree but most likely the reason. most people know you dont need simple carbs to replenish glycogen!


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

s3_abv said:


> Ok so what happens when on a keto. How does the liver/muscle glycogen get restored when the re-feed is usually on the 7th day? Or like you said it's unimportant when it get restored.
> 
> Cheers for making all this clear, you've been a great help the last few week!


This is a far more complicated a topic than I could do it justice in just one post, I'd highly recommend downloading The Bodyopus Diet by Dan Duchaine for in-depth understanding - I'm sure ausbuilt posted a link not long back?

Essentially fats and protein can by used for energy and the restoration of glycogen though. The carb-up aims to restore hormones like leptin (amongst others) that are down regulated whilst dieting and go some way to restoring glycogen levels too.

Restoring glycogen is an important part of creating an anabolic environment to grow though, it's just not as imperative as the supplement industry has made out to do it immediately PWO with simple carbs, outside of the caveat of needing to perform again the very same day.


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## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

bayman said:


> Simple carbs will restore glycogen, yes, but the speed at which you restore glycogen is unimportant if you're not needing to exercise / perform again the same day. Muscle building is a much longer process than glycogen replenishment, and as I've said, the latter is not dependant upon spiking insulin levels with simple carbs.
> 
> Liver glycogen is important to restore as you said, but you don't specifically need simple carbs to do this, although fruit would be an ideal choice as fructose preferentially tops this up.


In my case I'm cutting on 200g of carbs ed. I've trained legs this morn followed by a good solid carb/pro meal, waited 3hrs then went back to the gym and did an hour of sscv. I've since had about 20g of carbs and plenty of pro/fat.

So now I plan to get up in the morning and do some fasted cardio for 1hr. Then I plan as carrying on as normal (as I would if I hadn't woke up and done fasted cardio) come home and have my pre wo meal carbs/pro-fruit, wait 1.5hrs then go do my days resistance training.

My question is will I be to glycogen depleted to train? Or should I wait and do resistance training much later in the day?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> good post but the op didnt say what the pwo carbs were for, most probably for an insulin spike to shuttle aminos into muscle cells like when in mass building phase. not saying i agree but most likely the reason. most people know you dont need simple carbs to replenish glycogen!


Erm, no!



big_pumpa said:


> Evening peeps.
> 
> How much carbs would you say are necessary on a cutting diet post workout including both your post-workout shake and your meal 1 hour after?
> 
> I'm 5'9, 90kg and I currently have 30g dextrose post (30g carbs) and then another 35g carbs from 50g brown rice. So is 65g carbs enough?


You don't need an insulin spike to shuttle aminos into muscle cells, and this ignores the fact that protein creates an insulin response sufficient enough on its own anyway.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2011)

bayman said:


> Erm, no!
> 
> You don't need an insulin spike to shuttle aminos into muscle cells, and this ignores the fact that protein creates an insulin response sufficient enough on its own anyway.


lol ive not met many serious trainers who rely on protein for an insulin spike or glycogen replenishment pwo. agree though that when dieting its not really needed but you dont include simple carbs pwo when bulking?


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2011)

sorry my mistake i should have said pwo shake in my original post, didnt mean it for it the pwo meal.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> lol ive not met many serious trainers who rely on protein for an insulin spike or glycogen replenishment pwo. agree though that when dieting its not really needed but you dont include simple carbs pwo when bulking?


You've obviously not met many serious trainers who know what they're doing then. The supplement industry tells us we all NEED these PWO, but as far as I'm aware people were getting jacked long before we had whey and dextrose. It was/is called food.

And I wasn't suggesting the PWO shake would do the job of restoring glycogen, just that whey on it's own pre or PWO would sufficiently spike insulin levels to ensure it's fully absorbed. Especially given whey takes about 60mins to fully spike amino levels anyway.

Carbs in my PWO meal would do the job of restoring glycogen, rather than a sickly sweet, nutrient void dextrose shake.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Fullsquat said:


> In my case I'm cutting on 200g of carbs ed. I've trained legs this morn followed by a good solid carb/pro meal, waited 3hrs then went back to the gym and did an hour of sscv. I've since had about 20g of carbs and plenty of pro/fat.
> 
> So now I plan to get up in the morning and do some fasted cardio for 1hr. Then I plan as carrying on as normal (as I would if I hadn't woke up and done fasted cardio) come home and have my pre wo meal carbs/pro-fruit, wait 1.5hrs then go do my days resistance training.
> 
> My question is will I be to glycogen depleted to train? Or should I wait and do resistance training much later in the day?


Worrying about minutiae again, but 200g of carbs should be plenty to keep you glycogen replenished. My question would be why are you training everyday?


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2011)

bayman said:


> You've obviously not met many serious trainers who know what they're doing then. The supplement industry tells us we all NEED these PWO, but as far as I'm aware people were getting jacked long before we had whey and dextrose. It was/is called food.
> 
> And I wasn't suggesting the PWO shake would do the job of restoring glycogen, just that whey on it's own pre or PWO would sufficiently spike insulin levels to ensure it's fully absorbed. Especially given whey takes about 60mins to fully spike amino levels anyway.
> 
> Carbs in my PWO meal would do the job of restoring glycogen, rather than a sickly sweet, nutrient void dextrose shake.


thought the insulin spike from whey was negligible and not effective? not saying you're wrong but thats what i go by - dextrose or glucose etc is a common addition in a pwo shake.


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## Greenspin (Dec 27, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> thought the insulin spike from whey was negligible and not effective? not saying you're wrong but thats what i go by - dextrose or glucose etc is a common addition in a pwo shake.


Its commonality does not make it right


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> thought the insulin spike from whey was negligible and not effective? not saying you're wrong but thats what i go by - dextrose or glucose etc is a common addition in a pwo shake.


It's neither negligible or not as effective. Tell me why it would be? Dextrose is yes, because it has a high profit margin and people have been brainwashed into thinking it's necessary.


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## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

bayman said:


> Worrying about minutiae again, but 200g of carbs should be plenty to keep you glycogen replenished. My question would be why are you training everyday?


Yeah I do worry too much 

As I've been so active while not eating many carbs I'm worried my glycogen will be too depleted to train hard, unless I wait till later in the as my carbs in breakfast will be in full flow by then?

I usually resistance train 5 times per week. Today would normally be just legs, but as I was off work I did an hour of sscv cardio. Then saturdays while cutting I do fasted cardio then resistance training at different times. Sunday is cardio only.

Too much you think?


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2011)

bayman said:


> It's neither negligible or not as effective. Tell me why it would be? Dextrose is yes, because it has a high profit margin and people have been brainwashed into thinking it's necessary.


thats an interesting view, im always learning so appreciate new ideas and this is definitely something im going to research. may have learned something new so thanks! didnt think the insulin spike from whey alone would be sufficient.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2011)

just foud this article on the insulin raising properties of whey

Nov. 17, 2004 -- Different proteins have varying insulinotropic properties, and the whey fraction of milk is the predominant insulin secretagogue, according to the results of a study published in the November issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

"Milk products deviate from other carbohydrate-containing foods in that they produce high insulin responses, despite their low glycemic index (GI)," write Mikael Nilsson, MD, from Lund University in Sweden, and colleagues. "The insulinotropic mechanism of milk has not been elucidated."

The objective of this study was to evaluate the effect of common dietary sources of animal or vegetable proteins on concentrations of postprandial blood glucose, insulin, amino acids, and incretin hormones, including glucose-dependent insulinotropic polypeptide (GIP) and glucagon-like peptide 1, in 12 healthy volunteers. These subjects ate test meals consisting of reconstituted milk, cheese, whey, cod, and wheat gluten with equivalent amounts of lactose, with an equicarbohydrate load of white-wheat bread used as a reference meal.

Postprandial insulin responses were correlated with early increments in plasma amino acids, with the strongest correlations for leucine, valine, lysine, and isoleucine. There was also a correlation between responses of insulin and GIP concentrations.

Compared with the bread reference, reconstituted milk powder and whey had substantially lower postprandial glucose areas under the curve (AUCs) (-62% and -57%, respectively). The whey meal was associated with higher AUCs for insulin (90%) and GIP (54%).

"Food proteins differ in their capacity to stimulate insulin release, possibly by differently affecting the early release of incretin hormones and insulinotropic amino acids," the authors write. "Milk proteins have insulinotropic properties; the whey fraction contains the predominating insulin secretagogue.... The potential long-term effects of a noncarbohydrate-mediated insulin stimulus on metabolic variables should be evaluated in healthy persons and in persons with a diminished capacity for insulin secretion."


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> thats an interesting view, im always learning so appreciate new ideas and this is definitely something im going to research. may have learned something new so thanks! didnt think the insulin spike from whey alone would be sufficient.


Have a read of this: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/131832-dextrose-pre-post-workout-2.html#post2210067


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> just foud this article on the insulin raising properties of whey
> 
> Nov. 17, 2004 -- Different proteins have varying insulinotropic properties, and the whey fraction of milk is the predominant insulin secretagogue, according to the results of a study published in the November issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.
> 
> ...


But it still generated an insulin response, it'snot necessary to spike it for nutrients to be absorbed effectively.


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## s3_abv (Feb 10, 2010)

bayman said:


> Have a read of this: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/131832-dextrose-pre-post-workout-2.html#post2210067


Nice thread.


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## The Ultimate Warrior (Dec 20, 2010)

*Regarding what Ausbuilt was posting about, was you refering to this: (very interesting, not entirely usefull for this thread but figured i'de post anyway)*

Ignore the cpwo (carbless pwo) for now....that's another topic (it's carbless with low insulin use to increase insulin snsitivity)

Insulin before workout

I read near the end of the CPWO thread about using insulin prior to working out and have been doing some reading and a particular protocol was listed as follows:

Ok, so after talking to some professional and elite bodybuilders, I have learned quite a bit about what a well known professional trainer is having these bodybuilders to do to obtain the retarded amounts of weight they have been added to their bodies. It's simply taking their insulin pre-workout, combined with 3 "shakes". I looked at this Insulin protocol, and the ingredients in the shakes, and designed my own Insulin Protacol to better suit my goals and routine. I use better quality of ingredients in my shakes, and added my HGH pre-workout, and igf-1lr3 post workout as well.

Now, the theory behind this insulin protocol is, "Why break the body down, only to rebuild it? When you can simply keep adding onto the Body!"

So basically, by forcing the carbohydrates and Essential Amino Acids into your muscles while you train, the muscle tissue is not breaking down in the same manner that they normally would. It is actually being both protected and forced to grow at the same time. I have not done too much research behind the theory, but it sure sounded good to me, based on what I know about enhancing drugs and supplementation. I prefer trying things out myself, and going by results. Well, the results were spectacular.

This sounds pretty logical to me and seems it would work two fold in a carbless post workout system as well. You can have the benefit of forcing nutrients into the muscle for growth as well as have the circulating helping to push any existing blood glucose through the system on through the CPWO. So instead of just using Humulin R after the workout for leanness; who wouldn't give this a high consideration? Would the disadvantage be the methodology of being in a carbless state with active insulin in your system for a longer period of time? If Humalog begins working in 10 minutes and peak in 1-1.5 hours and stay active in the system for 3-3.5 hours; that seems like a more logical step (for my goals).

Before I begin, I want to say that this typed out protocol is just a base. It is to give you a base to work from/with. Everybody is different. Some people will need more or less carbs and amino acids. This is based on the amount of insulin that they are using and how their bodies react. This is why I gave a range for the supplements and insulin doses. You will need to adjust it based on how you react. For the carbohydrates, always start high, and lower it accordingly, once you get the feel of it.

We start off by taking our HGH, and give it a few minutes to get circulating, before we add our insulin. The idea behind this, is to make sure that the HGH passes the liver while we have a substantial amount of insulin in the body. This is how we produce large IGF-1 spikes. After the workout, we go home and take our IGF-1LR3. We are taking this to increase our insulin sensitivity, and to help use up any of those receptors that we have not filled. I could go more into detail, but if you are using this protocol, you should already know all about the drugs, and should be able to put it together yourself.

My gut is telling me that unless you have a lot of desires for look and anti-aging properties with HGH, that the hgh and igf could be eliminated and just follow the insulin protocol alone. Another benefit from reading that I haven't verified by multiple sources or thorough research is the fact that insulin output is the highest in the morning with excretion around 40%...so if you're an a.m. athlete; it appears you would also be controlling a major portion of the pancreas work for that day and help keep insulin at sought after levels. Perhaps someone with more experience could shed light?

- -30 min prior to workout: Take 10iu HGH subq

- -15 min prior to workout: Take 6-16iu Novalog subq

- -10 min prior to workout: Drink shake #1

- -After every working set: Sip on shake #2, and finish by end of workout

- -Go home

- -Take 100mcg of the IGF-1lr3 (for it's insulin sensitizing effects)

- -Take down shake #3

- -Done..now you are huge

Ok, now what is in the shakes...

Shake 1: 10-20g EAA's (Essential Amino Acids) or PeptoPro, 40-60g Low DE Maltodextrin, 5g Micronized Creatine Monohydrate, 200mg Caffeine (or pre-workout powdered mix of choice in place of caffeine)

Thought for research to conclude if the most beneficial amount of carbs would be in the range of 7-10g per iu of insuline used. So at drink #1 with 4iu's being 28-40g of carbs and again with drink #2....keeping extra glucose tabs, sugar or whatever near as a back up should this not be enough.....

Shake 2: 10-20g EAA's or PeptoPro, 50-100g Dextrose, 5g Micronized Creatine Monohydrate

Shake 3: 2 cups pasteurized egg whites, 1 cup dry oats, 1 banana or 1 cup blueberries (I prefer them to be frozen), splenda or stevia

*There is no need for a supplemented post workout shake because your glycogen will not be depleted, and you will have been ingesting aminos the whole time too. So dense whole food calories with low fat content, are going to be the best option here. So we throw it in a blender and take it down. CPWO!

Now, I would like to advise you cheap-skates, not to go out and buy the cheapest ingredients that you can find. Please pick quality supplements. It does and will make a difference. Spend the extra 2$ and buy some quality ****, or your results may be skewed. Thinks about it this way: Your body is a Lamborghini. Would you fill your tank with low grade octane from Costco? No, of course not, it would run like ****. So use quality supplements, not bulk junk crap, and your results will be that much better!

Supplement idea for those of you who need to be pointed in the right direction:

EAA's: Champion Nutrition makes a good EAA product that has creatine in it, and also one that has caffeine too. It's called Amino Shooter. There are 3 versions. None are a proprietary blend, and they are made with pharmacy grade aminos.

PeptoPro: This can be used in place of the EAA's. It is a high quality peptide/EAA product made from hydrolyzed casein. Different companies buy PeptoPro and flavor it. One brand I have tried that is flavored is MAP by Primordial Performance.

Low DE Maltodextrin: This means Low Dextrose Equivalency. The lower the equivalence, the more complex of a chain it is, and the slower it will break down into a sugar. A couple good ones are Carb Complex by Nutek, and Cytocarb 2 by Cytosport. If corn maltodextrins give you stomach problems, then other water soluble carbohydrates like Karbolyn can work. They just tend to be expensive, and do the same exact thing. Some people that have used this protocol with success, have actually used dextrose in place of the maltodextrin due to stomach problems.

Dextrose: Yes, you can find this anywhere, but I prefer AST's DGC because it also contains vitamins.

Micronized Creatine Monohydrate: Well, the name says it all. Any brand that uses Creapure as the source of their creatine monohydrate, should be just fine. I use Bioplex.

*Do not use cheap starch carbs, like waxy maize, in the shakes. The carbs need to be water soluble and easily digested. By keeping them soluble, they help pull the aminos in.

I decided to throw this protocol together after I had my leg surgery, in hopes of gaining some abnormal amounts of muscle back that I had lost. I can tell you that I did, and this protocol works better than any protocol I have ever used. I started off at 204 - 205lb, and ended up at 234 after 4-5 weeks! I was taking anabolics on the side, but I guarantee that amount of insane weight, that fast, was not from the long estered steroids I was taking. I literally filled out instantly. When I dropped the insulin, I only lost a few pounds of water, and retained most, if not all, of my strength. So the gains were very solid, and not just a bunch of glycogen storage.

I do not want to post this on the open forums because there are too many idiot kids out there that will attempt this protocol in hopes of becoming an instant monster (which wont happen for them), and they will mess it up somehow. Maybe by being stupid, maybe by cutting corners, maybe by using cheap ingredients. Who knows? I don't need people hurting themselves, or not having good results, and them coming back and complaining. Even though they were the ones cutting corners!

So, there it is boys. Some people are paying big money for this type of info. It's nothing special. It's just different, but it makes sense and it works.

*Added note: Since this protocol was designed and posted, a handful of advanced users have tried it as part of their bulking regime. They have also had great success.

Good Luck and Stay safe MUTANT

Everyone has goals that are different and for myself and my goals this seems very tempting to say the least. Those goals are which to maintain 6.5%bf over the winter (re-set my homeostasis) and maintain my current levels of lactic threshold, vo2max and strength while adding 3-6lb of solid muscle over the next 4 months. There is something to be said of a nice physique; especially if one can carry superior lungs, strong muscle fibers, and a strong immune system etc. So if someone is already in a lean state; would this protocol deliver a double dose of benefits to just cpwo alone?

I think the link where this is located has some really good information and if it's within the boards rules to post that, I'd be happy to share.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2011)

bayman said:


> Have a read of this: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/131832-dextrose-pre-post-workout-2.html#post2210067


good read but most of your views and quotes are alan aragon based, this guy has never competed and from what ive seen of him (not many pics available) didnt have a physique to be desired and he makes alot of radical claims like having all your protein intake in one meal as opposed to 6 smaller meals? and that all carbs are created equal and as long as the calorie deficit exists you'll lose fat? does that mean we can eat chocolate and ice cream as opposed to rice and oats as long as we remain in a deficit and still get lean! its not as simple as calories in vs calories out!!!! when dieting i agree that the pwo insulin spike shouldnt really matter but it varies but when gaining muscle the release of insulin is very anabolic and the insulin release from whey alone is questionable and debatable a best. but to be fair i havent paid it much attention s ive always had some form of simple carbs pwo when gaining so you may have a point. not sounding disrespectful in anyway and you make some great points but your views are very similar to that of alan aragon.


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

Holy **** guys!!

... SERIOUSLY.. some people in this thread need to re f'n lax! Don't worry about ur bleeding glycogen you'll know when you're fvcked from being depleted it happens if you wanna get lean..


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2011)

and to be honest all this talk of simple carbs in a pwo shake is a but redundant because its not enough to hinder results as pwo the body is in a catabolic and depleted state and carbs here wouldnt be detrimental and skipping pwo simple carbs for a meal if possible wouldnt be detrimental to gains either. after reading briefly abit more of alan aragons theories alot of his theories even if backed up by research are a bit pointless like having daily protein in one meal not making a difference to splitting the meals when theres nothing wrong with splitting up meals so why make up an argument trying to fix something aint broken when other solutions to problems would be more useful.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2011)

MXD said:


> Holy **** guys!!
> 
> ... SERIOUSLY.. some people in this thread need to re f'n lax! Don't worry about ur bleeding glycogen you'll know when you're fvcked from being depleted it happens if you wanna get lean..


best post in this thread lol


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> good read but most of your views and quotes are alan aragon based, this guy has never competed and from what ive seen of him (not many pics available) didnt have a physique to be desired and he makes alot of radical claims like having all your protein intake in one meal as opposed to 6 smaller meals? and that all carbs are created equal and as long as the calorie deficit exists you'll lose fat? does that mean we can eat chocolate and ice cream as opposed to rice and oats as long as we remain in a deficit and still get lean! its not as simple as calories in vs calories out!!!! when dieting i agree that the pwo insulin spike shouldnt really matter but it varies but when gaining muscle the release of insulin is very anabolic and the insulin release from whey alone is questionable and debatable a best. but to be fair i havent paid it much attention s ive always had some form of simple carbs pwo when gaining so you may have a point. not sounding disrespectful in anyway and you make some great points but your views are very similar to that of alan aragon.


You can't judge the validity of a claim based on the appearance of the person giving it. Just because Alan doesn't compete doesn't make what he's saying any less correct, his advice is good enough for pro sports teams and other pro bb'ers he's worked with and I doubt they'd pay him without delivering results. And I'm not sure where you've read him advocating all your daily protein in one sitting?

That aside, yes I'm a fan of his work, but his views are also mirrored by others who are respected in the health and fitness industry - the likes of Lyle McDonald, Jamie Hale, Martin Berkhan, Tom Venuto, the list goes on etc etc. Where Alan trumps most is he uses clinical research but also shows it flaws, limitations and applicability to the real world, he does this on a monthly basis with his research review, so his views are current and ever changing as more info comes to light, so I know where my money lies on who is correct here.

It's funny how I can give you solid scientific reasoning for no simple carbs PWO, but all you can come back with is the ad hominem argument of "bro, you're not jacked so your views mean squat."


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> and to be honest all this talk of simple carbs in a pwo shake is a but redundant because its not enough to hinder results as pwo the body is in a catabolic and depleted state and carbs here wouldnt be detrimental and skipping pwo simple carbs for a meal if possible wouldnt be detrimental to gains either. after reading briefly abit more of alan aragons theories alot of his theories even if backed up by research are a bit pointless like having daily protein in one meal not making a difference to splitting the meals when theres nothing wrong with splitting up meals so why make up an argument trying to fix something aint broken when other solutions to problems would be more useful.


If you're cutting the body is in a catabolic and depleted state regardless!!!! A PWO shake ain't going to change that! Just have a meal instead - same effect, more fullness. That's what's being discussed here.

No it wouldn't be detrimental to gains, but neither is it going to make or break it either.

Please reference this all of your protein in one meal thing you keep trotting out?

And as for showing more meals having no advantage over less. Well if I can spend doing other things than worrying about if it's been 3hrs since my last meal, or I'm going catabolic or other such rubbish then that's good in my book. But this argument has been done to death and is well off topic.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2011)

bayman said:


> You can't judge the validity of a claim based on the appearance of the person giving it. Just because Alan doesn't compete doesn't make what he's saying any less correct, his advice is good enough for pro sports teams and other pro bb'ers he's worked with and I doubt they'd pay him without delivering results. And I'm not sure where you've read him advocating all your daily protein in one sitting?
> 
> That aside, yes I'm a fan of his work, but his views are also mirrored by others who are respected in the health and fitness industry - the likes of Lyle McDonald, Jamie Hale, Martin Berkhan, Tom Venuto, the list goes on etc etc. Where Alan trumps most is he uses clinical research but also shows it flaws, limitations and applicability to the real world, he does this on a monthly basis with his research review, so his views are current and ever changing as more info comes to light, so I know where my money lies on who is correct here.
> 
> It's funny how I can give you solid scientific reasoning for no simple carbs PWO, but all you can come back with is the ad hominem argument of "bro, you're not jacked so your views mean squat."


the only scientific reasoning you gave was from a pointless study from alan aragon! and i never said that if a person doesnt or as has ever had a good physique ruins the validity of their claim just stated that he has never competed or been in the trenches trying things for himself just going by theory. bottom line is this whole debate is pointless!! its never done me any harm getting to 250lbs, and it hasnt done any others any harm. too many calories from carbs and fats will get you fat not a pwo shake with some simple carbs. and a pwo shake isnt always necessary if you have time to get a solid meal. and bottom line is as long as youre getting results it doesnt matter. personally while gaining i like to include simple carbs and wouldnt rely on just whey but when dieting i just have a protein shake unless i have time for a meal.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ricky23 said:


> the only scientific reasoning you gave was from a pointless study from alan aragon! and i never said that if a person doesnt or as has ever had a good physique ruins the validity of their claim just stated that he has never competed or been in the trenches trying things for himself just going by theory.


If how he looks means nothing in thr context of the debate, why mention it? And he must have plenty of "in the trench" work as you put it because people actually pay him for his advice. No results, no wage packet.



ricky23 said:


> bottom line is this whole debate is pointless!! its never done me any harm getting to 250lbs, and it hasnt done any others any harm.


You're massive, well done.



ricky23 said:


> too many calories from carbs and fats will get you fat not a pwo shake with some simple carbs. and a pwo shake isnt always necessary if you have time to get a solid meal. and bottom line is as long as youre getting results it doesnt matter.


This thread is all about whther the OP actually needs a shake PWO, specifically how many carbs he needs. I've explained why it's not necessary, especially when cutting, you've waded in disagreeing and then just proved my point for me?



ricky23 said:


> personally while gaining i like to include simple carbs and wouldnt rely on just whey but when dieting i just have a protein shake unless i have time for a meal.


Again, thank you for reinforcing my point. PWO simple carbs are pointless on a cut.

I'm off for some dextrose, I'm feeling catabolic...


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## Fullsquat (Apr 16, 2011)

MXD said:


> Holy **** guys!!
> 
> ... SERIOUSLY.. some people in this thread need to re f'n lax! Don't worry about ur bleeding glycogen you'll know when you're fvcked from being depleted it happens if you wanna get lean..


That'll be me then 

I'm on a steep learning curve, first proper cut ever and there's few guy's advice on here I take as gospel. Bayman is one of them.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Bayman and Ausbuilt, it's awesome having you guys here! Thank christ there's some knowledgeable people who are starting to question all the bullsh1t that's been taken as gospel for years! It does suck that you have to debate people who are still dealing with myths though - sort of like watching Hitchens vs a Christian fundamentalist lol! Stick around guys, you both contribute a lot. I'm not as knowledgeable, but thankfully I can always figure out who's worth listening to and who isn't lol! Reps to both!


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## Big Pumpa (Feb 29, 2008)

ricky23 said:


> good post but the op didnt say what the pwo carbs were for, most probably for an insulin spike to shuttle aminos into muscle cells like when in mass building phase. not saying i agree but most likely the reason. most people know you dont need simple carbs to replenish glycogen!


Yes you hit the nail on the head. Thats the primary reason why I use WMS/Dextrose


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## Big Pumpa (Feb 29, 2008)

bayman said:


> If how he looks means nothing in thr context of the debate, why mention it? And he must have plenty of "in the trench" work as you put it because people actually pay him for his advice. No results, no wage packet.
> 
> You're massive, well done.
> 
> ...


Yo thanks for all the advice bayman


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

JPaycheck said:


> *Regarding what Ausbuilt was posting about, was you refering to this: (very interesting, not entirely usefull for this thread but figured i'de post anyway)*
> 
> Ignore the cpwo (carbless pwo) for now....that's another topic (it's carbless with low insulin use to increase insulin snsitivity)
> 
> ...


yep, this is pretty good..

But i've come to believe 'slin pre-workot (with carbs) and post (without) is the way to go... ( i think MXD does some post carbs though, he uses a pretty close variation to me).

I also use 'slin first, and then 20 mins later to HGH (only real variation to the protocol- only because 'slin makes more HGH receptors/activates more receptors, so I have it before the HGH

I've also moved to effervescent creatine rather than simply micronised.. FAR more effective.. google away..


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## MXD (Jan 23, 2008)

ausbuilt said:


> yep, this is pretty good..
> 
> But i've come to believe 'slin pre-workot (with carbs) and post (without) is the way to go... ( i think MXD does some post carbs though, he uses a pretty close variation to me).
> 
> ...


I switched to your way bro


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