# Fat intake.



## Ukmeathead (Dec 4, 2010)

I was woundering whens the best tym to stop consuming good fats? I stop consuming carbs after 6pm i usally go to sleep around 11pm so that leaves me with 5hrs of consuming protein and fat, so how many hours before i go to sleep should i stop consuming fats?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Ukmeathead said:


> I was woundering whens the best tym to stop consuming good fats? I stop consuming carbs after 6pm i usally go to sleep around 11pm so that leaves me with 5hrs of consuming protein and fat, so how many hours before i go to sleep should i stop consuming fats?


A) Why do you stop consuming carbs after 6pm?

B) Why would you want to stop consuming fats? Plus there is no "good" or "bad" fat, just different sorts.


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## Ukmeathead (Dec 4, 2010)

I stop consuming carbs after 6pm because i do all my working out before that time and i just relax from 6pm to 11pm so all that extra energy from carbs would just get stored as bodyfat, so you are saying i can carry on consuming fats up untill i go to sleep? Yes there is good & bad fats for example Monounsaturated fats being a good fat and Trans fats being bad, so yes they maybe different sorts but one is bad for you and the other is good simple.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Ukmeathead said:


> I stop consuming carbs after 6pm because i do all my working out before that time and i just relax from 6pm to 11pm *so all that extra energy from carbs would just get stored as bodyfat*, so you are saying i can carry on consuming fats up untill i go to sleep?


They (Carbs) wouldn't make you fat if you aren't in a net calorie surplus. Are you cutting or bulking?

Timing of carbs comes waaay second to making sure you're hitting your daily totals.



UKmeathead said:


> Yes there is good & bad fats for example Monounsaturated fats being a good fat and Trans fats being bad, so yes they maybe different sorts but one is bad for you and the other is good simple.


Over simplication on my part sorry. Saturated, Monounsaturated and Polyunsaturated fats from whole / real foods are all perfectly healthy to various degrees, I agree that trans-fats (man made ones) should be avoided.


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## Ukmeathead (Dec 4, 2010)

You're a muppet. Please stop replying in my thread and let the more knowledgeable members of UK-Muscle reply.

P.S thanks for editing your post


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Ukmeathead said:


> You're a muppet. Please stop replying in my thread and let the more knowledgeable members of UK-Muscle reply.
> 
> P.S thanks for editing your post


Wow thanks for the compliment!

But as there's absolutely not a shred of evidence that combining carbs and fats is any more fattening than not, or comsuning carbs after 6pm is a ticket to increased fat storage, I'll leave you to your neurotic eating guidelines.

May I suggest you read this: http://alanaragon.com/carbs-fat-friends-after-all.html

this:

http://www.simplyshredded.com/experts-questions-n-answers.html

and this:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/topicoftheweek139.htm


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## Ukmeathead (Dec 4, 2010)

They are some very intresting reads to say the least, i do retract my previsious statment you are pritty knowledgeable.


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## Ukmeathead (Dec 4, 2010)

What would be a good thing to consume before bed to keep my body anabolic through the night? I usally just have a protein shake so when i wake up the next morning my body is always growling.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2011)

hahaha he called you a muppet

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to bayman again.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Ukmeathead said:


> What would be a good thing to consume before bed to keep my body anabolic through the night? I usally just have a protein shake so when i wake up the next morning my body is always growling.


Any slow release protein source: Milk protein / caesin powder, meat, cottage cheese. Having any of these with both carbs and fat and some fibre would keep you anabolic all night. A meal might be superior to a shake as it's less likely to get you up in the middle of the night for a pee, and sleep is when you repair and recover. Milk proteins are particulary good due to their slow absorbtion, so I tend to have a pot of cottage cheese mixed with some milk protein, berries and nut butter.


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## Ukmeathead (Dec 4, 2010)

i aint to keen on cottage cheese but would whey protein mixed with semi skimmed milk and virgin olive oil be any good ?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Well liquids on the whole are digested much quicker, you'd be better off with a can of tuna and some Salsa and veggies etc or similar. If you want to go the shake route pick up some milk protein / micellar caesin, milk is fine in a pinch.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

There sort of are "bad fats", so the OP is correct about that. I don't profess to know what's bad about them, but I do know that knowledgeable people in this area consider trans fats and heat-damaged fats to be "unhealthy". Saturated fat is NOT bad for you though, or no convincing evidence that I have seen would suggest it is!



bayman said:


> *They (Carbs) wouldn't make you fat if you aren't in a net calorie surplus. Are you cutting or bulking?*
> 
> Timing of carbs comes waaay second to making sure you're hitting your daily totals.
> 
> Over simplication on my part sorry. Saturated, Monounsaturated and Polyunsaturated fats from whole / real foods are all perfectly healthy to various degrees, I agree that trans-fats (man made ones) should be avoided.


Not true I'm afraid; carbs most certainly can make you gain fat in a calorie deficit. A number of studies provide evidence to support this. You think someone dieting on 2000cals of sugar is gonna look the same as someone dieting on 2000cals of salmon and broccoli? Spiking insulin at the wrong times will do horrible things to your physique, calorie surplus or not.

But OP, no need to stop consuming dietary fat at any particular time; far from it. Having fat in your pre-bed meals will slow digestion somewhat; plus, you're gonna have to make up cals from somewhere unless you're eating carbs all day! A lot of people cut out carbs late at night...personally if you gain fat easily I see no need to take in carbs other than pre-wo and in the PWO window. However, I'm a hypocrite because I don't always follow this advice...


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

AlasTTTair said:


> Not true I'm afraid; *carbs most certainly can make you gain fat in a calorie deficit*. A number of studies provide evidence to support this. You think someone dieting on 2000cals of sugar is gonna look the same as someone dieting on 2000cals of salmon and broccoli? Spiking insulin at the wrong times will do horrible things to your physique, calorie surplus or not.


Please reference said studies.

And you're second point is a strawman argument, easy to build up and knock it down. I never compared 2000kcal of sugar to that of salmon and broccoli, but as part of a mixed diet, especially one that is protein rich (as in most bodybuilders diets) carbs will not make you fat no matter what type or when you eat them if you maintain a caloric deficit. If carbs trigger you to overeat then that's another thing mind.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2011)

im eating one big 1500-2000 calorie meal a day at present. todays ended with a 100g 600kcal chocolate bar and i have no doubt i will continue to lean out despite this horrendous evil body building mistake of eating carbs last thing at night


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

bayman said:


> Please reference said studies.
> 
> And you're second point is a strawman argument, easy to build up and knock it down. I never compared 2000kcal of sugar to that of salmon and broccoli, but as part of a mixed diet, especially one that is protein rich (as in most bodybuilders diets) carbs will not make you fat no matter what type or when you eat them if you maintain a caloric deficit. If carbs trigger you to overeat then that's another thing mind.


I think you're confusing body weight with body composition. You're telling me someone eating say 100cals below maintenance of nothing but sugar will maintain exactly the same body fat level? LOL!


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Anyway, read this first: http://www.scribd.com/doc/28131415/Kekwick-Pawan-1956-Lancet. It's old, but essentially 1000cals of mostly fat = weight loss; 1000cals of high carbs = no weight loss. Also read Gary Taubes' book "Good Calories, Bad Calories". Plenty of studies in there demonstrating this fact over and over again. I assume you haven't done too much reading into the subject as you're still quoting the "thermodynamics" sh1te  .


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## Ukmeathead (Dec 4, 2010)

AlasTTTair said:


> Anyway, read this first: http://www.scribd.com/doc/28131415/Kekwick-Pawan-1956-Lancet. It's old, but essentially 1000cals of mostly fat = weight loss; 1000cals of high carbs = no weight loss. Also read Gary Taubes' book "Good Calories, Bad Calories". Plenty of studies in there demonstrating this fact over and over again. I assume you haven't done too much reading into the subject as you're still quoting the "thermodynamics" sh1te  .


I got half way through the that link but stoped i aint the best of readers lol, is it ok for me to eat fats/carbs before bed and for them not to be stored as bodyfat?


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

AlasTTTair said:


> I think you're confusing body weight with body composition. You're telling me someone eating say 100cals below maintenance of nothing but sugar will maintain exactly the same body fat level? LOL!


Please please tell me where I said that?

My point is: "protein being sufficient, you could whatever carb source you wanted, and if you were below maintenance you'd still lose fat"


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Ukmeathead said:


> I got half way through the that link but stoped i aint the best of readers lol, is it ok for me to eat fats/carbs before bed and for them not to be stored as bodyfat?


It's fine so long as you are in a caloric deficit. If you're bulking you're gonna gains some fat regardless, and carbs before bed will keep you anabolic as they're protein sparing.


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

AlasTTTair said:


> Anyway, read this first: http://www.scribd.com/doc/28131415/Kekwick-Pawan-1956-Lancet. It's old, but essentially 1000cals of mostly fat = weight loss; 1000cals of high carbs = no weight loss. Also read Gary Taubes' book "Good Calories, Bad Calories". Plenty of studies in there demonstrating this fact over and over again. I assume you haven't done too much reading into the subject as you're still quoting the "thermodynamics" sh1te  .


You obviously haven't done much either if you're quoting Taubes! A journalist who selectively cherry picks studies to try and convey his point and ignored data that doesn't support his position!

People just horribly misinterpret the energy balance equation. Read this for further reference: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-energy-balance-equation.html


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## r_richson (Dec 22, 2007)

you eat 2k cals and you daily expendature is 2k cals then why would they be stored as fat? thought this was the same for all foods


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2011)

If you look at studies on muslims during ramadan, they stuff themselves with fat and carbs all night with no effect on bodyfat levels as they're still often in an overall deficit.

And yes a professor lost 27lbs eating crisps and twinkies

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ALR said:


> If you look at studies on muslims during ramadan, they stuff themselves with fat and carbs all night with no effect on bodyfat levels as they're still often in an overall deficit.
> 
> And yes a professor lost 27lbs eating crisps and twinkies
> 
> http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html


Great example that.

Guru's in the low carb community will try convince you that the law of thermodynamics doesn't hold true, but it does. Obviously he may have lost some muscle too on that sort of diet, but it bring me back to my earlier point - protein being sufficient (for retention of LBM) it doesn't really matter where the rest of your cals come from.


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

Mabye it is wrong to think of it in terms of 'good fats' and 'bad fats' because we need all kinds of fats in our diet but surely its widely agreed theres some order of importance like..

Monosaturates - ''Good fats.. necessary for testoesterone production im told, which helps protein synthesis or something..

Polysaturates - ''Bad fats.. but we can still consume quite a lot daily im told but their worse than mono's..

Saturates - ''I'll be honest i dont know a lot about these other than their near the end of the 'bad spectrum' i.e. consumption of them is pretty limited and their quite bad for you.

Trans fats - ''Dont know what these are myself but ive been told their the worst fats out there.. and consuming any trans fats was bad for you because their artifical or something..

Can you see what im saying? Its a bit like a hierachy of importance sort of thing


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

CoffeeFiend said:


> Mabye it is wrong to think of it in terms of 'good fats' and 'bad fats' because we need all kinds of fats in our diet but surely its widely agreed theres some order of importance like..
> 
> Monosaturates - Generally considered good / benign.
> 
> ...


I can see what you're saying, but you have your "heirachy" skewed by the weight of mainstream opinion rather than science.


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## CoffeeFiend (Aug 31, 2010)

bayman said:


> I can see what you're saying, but you have your "heirachy" skewed by the weight of mainstream opinion rather than science.


Your right my views are skewed a bit as i said im not an expert in the various kinds of facts. Didnt know fish oil was a poly either lol. Confirmed the trans are the bad boys of the fat world though which is good to know, i didnt know if they were totally evil and if you needed some in the diet or not.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2011)

No you don't need any trans fats. They've been linked to everything from diabetes to cancer, one study I saw said that for every 2% increase in dietary transfats a 75% lower chance of getting pregnant was found for women.

So if you don't want your mrs to get pregnant just feed her lots of oreos


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## Ukmeathead (Dec 4, 2010)

Abit off topic but do any of you guys know any good calorie counting sites?


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

ALR said:


> If you look at studies on muslims during ramadan, they stuff themselves with fat and carbs all night with no effect on bodyfat levels as they're still often in an overall deficit.
> 
> And yes a professor lost 27lbs eating crisps and twinkies
> 
> http://edition.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html


Wow great scientific research there! Gary taubes got fat from eating pears: 



.

Neither of these anecdotal reports prove anything at all!


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2011)

Him gettin fat from pears just shows that total caloric intake is the mosti mportant thing, doesn't matter if its from pears, fat, sugar etc.

it's TOTAL calorie intake that defines whether you'll lose fat or gain it


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

ALR said:


> Him gettin fat from pears just shows that total caloric intake is the mosti mportant thing, doesn't matter if its from pears, fat, sugar etc.
> 
> it's TOTAL calorie intake that defines whether you'll lose fat or gain it


That youtube link shows that? Cos he was suggesting quite the opposite; that it was the sugar in the pears that spiked his insulin and caused him to gain fat, while his calorie intake stayed the same. He stopped eating the pears and dropped the weight again. Now there's no proof for either of these claims, so I have no idea how you've inferred that this supports your theory and are dead certain about it. You crazy!


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

ALR said:


> Him gettin fat from pears just shows that total caloric intake is the mosti mportant thing, doesn't matter if its from pears, fat, sugar etc.
> 
> it's TOTAL calorie intake that defines whether you'll lose fat or gain it


Plus, you need to spike insulin to gain fat. If you don't eat carbohydrates, you literally CANNOT gain fat! If you eat 10,000cals of butter you won't gain fat. You can't! It's physiologically impossible! The only hormone which regulates fat gain is insulin. If you don't eat carbs you don't spike insulin. Therefore you don't gain fat. This is based on science. WTF are your claims based on?


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2011)

AlasTTTair said:


> Plus, you need to spike insulin to gain fat. If you don't eat carbohydrates, you literally CANNOT gain fat! If you eat 10,000cals of butter you won't gain fat. You can't! It's physiologically impossible! The only hormone which regulates fat gain is insulin. If you don't eat carbs you don't spike insulin. Therefore you don't gain fat. This is based on science. WTF are your claims based on?


All I read was your post stating he ate pears and gained fat, I didn't listen to the audio.

Btw all foods spike insulin, even drinking water can spike insulin. Insulin is needed to shuttle fats, proteins AND carbs. You clearly don't know what you're talking about, and you argue like Ron Burgundy:

"You're just a woman with a small brain. With a brain a third the size of us. It's science. "

"This is based on science" yeah right ok lol

Beta cells in the islets of Langerhans release insulin in two phases. The first phase insulin release is rapidly triggered in response to increased blood glucose levels. The second phase is a sustained, slow release of newly formed vesicles that are triggered independently of sugar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin

I suggest you do some reading


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

AlasTTTair said:


> Plus, you need to spike insulin to gain fat. If you don't eat carbohydrates, you literally CANNOT gain fat! If you eat 10,000cals of butter you won't gain fat. You can't! It's physiologically impossible! The only hormone which regulates fat gain is insulin. If you don't eat carbs you don't spike insulin. Therefore you don't gain fat. This is based on science. WTF are your claims based on?


Thou have been reading the church of Taubes too much.

Your scientific "fact" is incorrect unfortunately. Insulin isn't the only fat storage hormone, go look up Acylation stimulating protein (ASP). This little critter is activated with the presence of Chylomirons (packaged fat) in the blood stream, and does a fantastic job of packing it away without the presence of insulin - the body is smart like that huh? It's one of the key flaws with Taubes argument and I can assure you you'd most definately get fat on 10,000kcal of butter, wanna try it out?

And ASP aside Taubes' theory ignores the fact that proteins in some cases are more insulinogenic than carbs, so if insulin was the key determinor of fat gain bodybuilduilers would be massively obese!

I think you need to go research the topic further rather than listening to a journalist mascarading as a nutritional scienctist.


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## Big Dawg (Feb 24, 2008)

Lulz at the wikipedia link!


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Lulz at your study from 1956! I think we've moved on a little in research since then...


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## engllishboy (Nov 1, 2007)

AlasTTTair said:


> Lulz at the wikipedia link!


Good argument! /end sarcasm


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