# Pwo sugar induced insulin spike - ja Oder nicht



## Fatstuff

What camp are u in?

Yes, good for muscle gain

No, any carbs will do to prevent catabolism

Yes, for speedy replenishment of glycogen

No, protein only is sufficient

Where do u stand on this one and why?


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## 3752

yes i use them PWO all year round, as for why because it works....


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## Rick89

Ive always done it and found it works really


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## Fatstuff

Pscarb said:


> yes i use them PWO all year round, as for why because it works....


Did u find it affected gains by dropping it? Or haven't u dropped it?


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## Rick89

Fatstuff said:


> Did u find it affected gains by dropping it? Or haven't u dropped it?


I dropped it and it effected more recovery than anything

I dont think It makes a huge difference but may aswell as its easy and cheap


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## a.notherguy

gives me the 5hits.

i dont get on well with sugar


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## Fatstuff

Rick89 said:


> I dropped it and it effected more recovery than anything
> 
> I dont think It makes a huge difference but may aswell as its easy and cheap


And makes ur shake taste sweet


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## Rick89

Fatstuff said:


> And makes ur shake taste sweet


Ye its the only time I use supplement as quick and easy,


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## Fatstuff

See I stopped using it when dieting and never really noticed a difference apart from losing weight consistently so never used it again. But now I'm on cycle, I'm trying to decide whether it would be beneficial to add it back in again.


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## 3752

Fatstuff said:


> Did u find it affected gains by dropping it? Or haven't u dropped it?


it effected my recovery which in turn effected my progress, i used to diet for show without any carbs PWO and was no leaner than i was when i used carbs PWO.......i am assuming by sugar you mean simple carbs and not table sugar?


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## Fatstuff

Pscarb said:


> it effected my recovery which in turn effected my progress, i used to diet for show without any carbs PWO and was no leaner than i was when i used carbs PWO.......i am assuming by sugar you mean simple carbs and not table sugar?


Lol yes mate :lol:


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## Fatstuff

Pscarb, no offence but every post u write I imagine u with an angry face.


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## Greenspin

Fatstuff said:


> Pscarb, no offence but every post u write I imagine u with an angry face.


Me to. But when its a post to me, I think it probably is :whistling:


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## Fatstuff

Probably will be to me now


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## Tasty

Fatstuff said:


> Pscarb, no offence but every post u write I imagine u with an angry face.


Haha sorry but me too. Like "how are you all stupid, do you need me to wipe your **** after you train too?"


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## dtlv

I don't think PWO carbs do anything for muscle growth - both the science says they don't, and more importantly I've not noticed that I miss anything when not using PWO carbs.

I do however find though that if I've been very active (lots of physical activity and doing weights plus some form of cardio almost every day), replenishing my glycogen levels PWO does make a big positive difference and help me feel recovered a lot faster than when not taking them... without them in this circumstance I'm just a dribbling tired mess slumped in a chair for the rest of the day after a workout.

On days that are a 45 min weights session only though I feel no real advantage and don't bother with them... although for nutrient partitioning effects (excess carbs to be stored as glycogen rather than fat), PWO or immediately pre workout is the very best time to take them.


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## dtlv

I'll tell you this now - in the mods lounge Pscarb IS NOT the grumpy one. Ain't telling you which one of us is, but it's not Paul.


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## Fatstuff

Greenspin said:


> Better than having not head  Your user name reminds me of the name Fatwod that thing is adult swim.


Absolutely no idea what u mean???????


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## Greenspin

Dtlv74 said:


> I'll tell you this now - in the mods lounge Pscarb IS NOT the grumpy one. Ain't telling you which one of us is, but it's not Paul.


(cough) Katy :whistling:


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## Fatstuff

Dtlv74 said:


> I'll tell you this now - in the mods lounge Pscarb IS NOT the grumpy one. Ain't telling you which one of us is, but it's not Paul.


Lol, hacks?????? Never


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## Greenspin

Fatstuff said:


> Absolutely no idea what u mean??????? **


I must admit that was not one of my best sentences. Fatstuff reminds me of the name Fat Wod. If memory serves, on a weird program called adult swim there is a character called FatWod, of something.

Edit: Original comment deleted for being [email protected]


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## dtlv

haha, not telling who it is


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## Fatstuff

Greenspin said:


> I must admit that was not one of my best sentences. Fatstuff reminds me of the name Fat Wod. If memory serves, on a weird program called adult swim there is a character called FatWod, of something.
> 
> Edit: Original comment deleted for being [email protected]


Get a pic up lol, could be my new avi


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## Fatstuff

Dtlv74 said:


> haha, not telling who it is


Spoilsport lol


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## hackskii

Greenspin said:


> (cough) Katy :whistling:





Fatstuff said:


> Lol, hacks?????? Never


I dont know why but that just caught me as so funny.

Damn, I love this board.

I love the playfulness.


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## Fatstuff

hackskii said:


> I dont know why but that just caught me as so funny.
> 
> Damn, I love this board.
> 
> I love the playfulness.


Lol, we know u do mate  any input on the pwo insulin spike question? :lol:


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## hackskii

Fatstuff said:


> Lol, we know u do mate  any input on the pwo insulin spike question? :lol:


My input wont be too helpful. :lol:

I eat when I am hungry.

I don't like to train when I have food in my stomach.

I have on many occasion had beer after training.

I have to diet every day just so I wont gain weight.

I am not a fan of sugar, I think you can get everything you need from whole foods, and that would even be a steak and potato post workout.

This game is all about consistency, I have been training for over 35 years, I don't need to train every day, and the only reason I train now at 52 is to keep what I have and not lose it with age.

I could do one cycle and match most all of my personal bests, but in the end probably end up injured...lol

Whole foods all the way for this kid, I have not had a protein shake in months and that was a fluke as I was in too much of a hurry to cook something.

If I was retired id probably eat bacon and eggs for every breakfast.


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## 3752

Fatstuff said:


> Pscarb, no offence but every post u write I imagine u with an angry face.





Greenspin said:


> Me to. But when its a post to me, I think it probably is :whistling:





Tasty said:


> Haha sorry but me too. Like "how are you all stupid, do you need me to wipe your **** after you train too?"


  i have no feeling for or against anyone on this or any other board  i have no angry face unless people get personnel or they are not helping themselves in any way(non of which any of you do)


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## Uriel

Fatstuff said:


> What camp are u in?
> 
> Yes, good for muscle gain
> 
> No, any carbs will do to prevent catabolism
> 
> Yes, for speedy replenishment of glycogen
> 
> No, protein only is sufficient
> 
> Where do u stand on this one and why?


dont think ive missed this thread you pr1ck lol.....

I told you all about insulin spikes and what they do and here you are sneaking about "asking" all about them you back sliding cnut lol


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## Uriel

Dtlv74 said:


> I don't think PWO carbs do anything for muscle growth - both the science says they don't, and more importantly I've not noticed that I miss anything when not using PWO carbs.
> 
> I do however find though that if I've been very active (lots of physical activity and doing weights plus some form of cardio almost every day), replenishing my glycogen levels PWO does make a big positive difference and help me feel recovered a lot faster than when not taking them... without them in this circumstance I'm just a dribbling tired mess slumped in a chair for the rest of the day after a workout.
> 
> On days that are a 45 min weights session only though I feel no real advantage and don't bother with them... although for nutrient partitioning effects (excess carbs to be stored as glycogen rather than fat), PWO or immediately pre workout is the very best time to take them.


DTLV, you are a wise bro - can you explain what (if it exists) triggers the 1 to 2 hour "window" post training that directs insulin converted blood sugars into the muscle rather than the adipose tissue? is it a hormone signal?

Oh and you can PM me who the Grumpy one is lol....

Paul Scarb is an aquired taste lol - i just think if he trained harder - he'd be happier PMSL


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## Fatstuff

Uriel said:


> dont think ive missed this thread you pr1ck lol.....
> 
> I told you all about insulin spikes and what they do and here you are sneaking about "asking" all about them you back sliding cnut lol


Lol I disagreed with what u said and wanted second opinions  do u think ur word is gospel and shouldn't be questioned ???? Pmsl


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## Fatstuff

Which btw, my inquisitive nature will make me an absolute genius when I get to ur age :lol


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## C.Hill

I feel so much better after training with dextrose added to my shake, wouldn't train without it!


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## C.Hill

Fatstuff said:


> Lol I disagreed with what u said and wanted second opinions  do u think ur word is gospel and shouldn't be questioned ???? Pmsl


Loool


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## Big ape

C.Hill said:


> I feel so much better after training with dextrose added to my shake, wouldn't train without it!


How much dextrose u using pwo?


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## C.Hill

Big ape said:


> How much dextrose u using pwo?


Varies mate, 40-80g normally.


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## Big ape

C.Hill said:


> Varies mate, 40-80g normally.


Yeh I been using 20g might up it


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## hackskii

Uriel said:


> DTLV, you are a wise bro - can you explain what (if it exists) triggers the 1 to 2 hour "window" post training that directs insulin converted blood sugars into the muscle rather than the adipose tissue? is it a hormone signal?


I know the question was directed at the wise one but I will answer this for him.

It has to do with insulin sensitivity.

Post workout you are insulin sensitive, in fact the most sensitive than the rest of the day.

Taking in carbohydrates and amino's will be preferentially shuttled to your muscles for repair and growth, in fact this meal can actually help insulin sensitivity for up to 12 hours or more, so even the next meal after this will be more likely to fill glycogen stores and not be stored as fat.

Insulin post workout also curbs cortisol, and that can spike during training or be elevated post training, so curbing cortisol with a meal, or a carb stops cortisol from being catabolic.


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## Uriel

Fatstuff said:


> Lol I disagreed with what u said and wanted second opinions  do u think ur word is gospel and shouldn't be questioned ???? Pmsl


you wont catch me out you sh1thouse pmsl - i know my onions or I go read lol


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## Uriel

Fatstuff said:


> Which btw, my inquisitive nature will make me an absolute genius when I get to ur age :lol


you'll be dead when your my age - not because of gear or dnp but because someone will leather you to death in a bar fight for being a [email protected] pmsl...

only joking - good thread mate


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## 3752

Uriel said:


> Paul Scarb is an aquired taste lol - i just think if he trained harder - he'd be happier PMSL


this may be true i will give it a try or i could shop in mothercare for my T-shirts to make my arm look big


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## Uriel

Pscarb said:


> this may be true i will give it a try or i could shop in mothercare for my T-shirts to make my arm look big


lol - its XXXXXXXL you jealouse cnut lol


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## s3_abv

Awaits Bayman :rolleye:


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## s3_abv

I use a PWO shake containing 30g whey/50g dextrose but mainly because it fits my macros.


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## Fatstuff

Uriel said:


> lol - its XXXXXXXL you jealouse cnut lol


Xxxxxxxxxtra little


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## Uriel

Fatstuff said:


> Xxxxxxxxxtra little


LOL - i honestly thought Pscarb would mod edit it to that lol


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## hackskii

Uriel, your arm is looking rather huge in that pic.


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## bayman

Jesus, this has been done to death multiple times on here, with references to boot! In summary:

1. Protein around training = good.

2. Carbs after training = good.

3. Studies show protein and carbs PWO to be better than protein alone. See this.

4. Type of carb PWO is irrelevant, why? *The initial rapid phase of glycogenesis PWO is not regulated by insulin.*

5. Of greater importance than nutrient timing is consistently hitting daily macro targets, although some protein (or EAA) around training is beneficial.

6. Unless you're training multiple times per day, you don't need fast carbs PWO to rapidly refill glycogen; diet over the proceeding 24hrs will do this anyway. See point 4. for reference.

If you want anything clarifying, let me know.


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## 3752

Uriel said:


> lol - its XXXXXXXL you jealouse cnut lol


Right so it is XXXXXXXL size in mother care glad you cleared that up


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## Uriel

Pscarb said:


> Right so it is XXXXXXXL size in mother care glad you cleared that up


lol - 12 inches of solid fat lol


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## Uriel

hackskii said:


> Uriel, your arm is looking rather huge in that pic.


its all smoke and mirrors mate lol............plus huge cannons


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## Uriel

bayman said:


> Jesus, this has been done to death multiple times on here, with references to boot! In summary:
> 
> 1. Protein around training = good.
> 
> 2. Carbs after training = good.
> 
> 3. Studies show protein and carbs PWO to be better than protein alone. See this.
> 
> 4. Type of carb PWO is irrelevant, why? *The initial rapid phase of glycogenesis PWO is not regulated by insulin.*
> 
> 5. Of greater importance than nutrient timing is consistently hitting daily macro targets, although some protein (or EAA) around training is beneficial.
> 
> 6. Unless you're training multiple times per day, you don't need fast carbs PWO to rapidly refill glycogen; diet over the proceeding 24hrs will do this anyway. See point 4. for reference.
> 
> If you want anything clarifying, let me know.


ref point 4 - what is the sugar conversion and reuptake mechanism if insulin is not involved bro??


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## bayman

Uriel said:


> ref point 4 - what is the sugar conversion and reuptake mechanism if insulin is not involved bro??


Of course if you use a simple sugar PWO (dex / malto) then insulin will be involved yes. What I'm saying is that the initial rapid phase of glycogensis is not influenced by insulin, so you don't need to spike it, but just raise it from basal levels to take advantage of nutrient shuttling and anti catabolic effects.

If you've eaten pre workout, or you supplement during your workout, insulin and blood amino levels are already elevated, spiking isn't necessary.


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## Uriel

Ok I am going to ask the obvious question, why do bbers take insulin at all?

It is a very anabolic hormone but it does no good triggering your own response at given times?


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## Fatstuff

bayman said:


> Of course if you use a simple sugar PWO (dex / malto) then insulin will be involved yes. What I'm saying is that the initial rapid phase of glycogensis is not influenced by insulin, so you don't need to spike it, but just raise it from basal levels to take advantage of nutrient shuttling and anti catabolic effects.
> 
> If you've eaten pre workout, or you supplement during your workout, insulin and blood amino levels are already elevated, spiking isn't necessary.


So if u was to train in the morning fasted or with some bcaa's would it be of benefit at all then or would any carb source do just to prevent catabolism.


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## Fatstuff

Fvck me Muriel we must of woke up together


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## Uriel

Fatstuff said:


> Fvck me Muriel we must of woke up together


That's not going to ever happen, understood? Lol

I just don't get why for years, I read that a post work out insulin peak induced by simple carbs was important..........then the fact that many bodybuilders mimick this response by taking exogenic insulin to be reading now it does no good

Weird theories


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## Fatstuff

Like I said when im ur age I'll have all the answers, but in my slight experience I think that a lot of 'what works' for bodybuilders for years, has worked due to a mixture of everything that they did combined, not down to each single thing. Eat 5hitloads of calories, train your ass off and get results, anything else just helps that happen. Pwo shake with carbs adds 50g protein and 50g carbs to ur diet, an extra 400 calories - which helps in it's own way not necessarily through insulin manipulation but overall calorie intake.

It's like cutting carbs in the evening, people get leaner - why? Because they cut it in the evening? Or because they cut 'some' carbs out?

I think we tend to overthink things, this was the point i was getting at originally.


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## Uriel

Fatstuff said:


> Like I said when im ur age I'll have all the answers, but in my slight experience I think that a lot of 'what works' for bodybuilders for years, has worked due to a mixture of everything that they did combined, not down to each single thing. Eat 5hitloads of calories, train your ass off and get results, anything else just helps that happen. Pwo shake with carbs adds 50g protein and 50g carbs to ur diet, an extra 400 calories - which helps in it's own way not necessarily through insulin manipulation but overall calorie intake.
> 
> It's like cutting carbs in the evening, people get leaner - why? Because they cut it in the evening? Or because they cut 'some' carbs out?
> 
> I think we tend to overthink things, this was the point i was getting at originally.


yes there is a lot of over egging the pudding in this game.

However - there ARE also a handfull of core tricks that work and save time and increase growth (good thing)

So the difficulty arises when you are selecting whether a process works and is worth adding to your life.

Now in this instance - knickers ARE getting twisted - it is OBVIOUS that having a base amount of digesting and metabolising fuel in your blood will slowly replace used fuel after training.

The question is whether inducing an insulin spike has any NOTICABLE bonus over just maintaining this base amount for slow refil.

MANY, despite baymans point "believe" it does..............it could only be measured over a long term say 3 months as opposed to a few days ..........

So the question really is - has anyone measured it to confirm or refute it or is EVERYTHING in this thread just supposition?


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## Fatstuff

Uriel said:


> yes there is a lot of over egging the pudding in this game.
> 
> However - there ARE also a handfull of core tricks that work and save time and increase growth (good thing)
> 
> So the difficulty arises when you are selecting whether a process works and is worth adding to your life.
> 
> Now in this instance - knickers ARE getting twisted - it is OBVIOUS that having a base amount of digesting and metabolising fuel in your blood will slowly replace used fuel after training.
> 
> The question is whether inducing an insulin spike has any NOTICABLE bonus over just maintaining this base amount for slow refil.
> 
> MANY, despite baymans point "believe" it does..............it could only be measured over a long term say 3 months as opposed to a few days ..........
> 
> So the question really is - has anyone measured it to confirm or refute it or is EVERYTHING in this thread just supposition?


This is the whole thing entirely and the whole point of me making this thread, I have what I have read and what I have done but I am not long in my years at this game so I don't know my body nowhere as near as u or pscarb.

I try to question everything as there is a lot of bull5hit floating around and it's hard to separate the nuggets from the 5hit and unless I can fast forward 10-20 years then information and other ppl's experiences is all I have got to go on. This is why I made this thread, no disrespect to u or anyone else who has chatted to me on this subject, I just like a wide varied range of info to take from!

Then again maybe I'm spending too much time thinking and should just eat lots, train lots and let the rest take care of itself. Maybe bang in a gram of test for good measure!


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## Uriel

Fatstuff said:


> This is the whole thing entirely and the whole point of me making this thread, I have what I have read and what I have done but I am not long in my years at this game so I don't know my body nowhere as near as u or pscarb.
> 
> I try to question everything as there is a lot of bull5hit floating around and it's hard to separate the nuggets from the 5hit and unless I can fast forward 10-20 years then information and other ppl's experiences is all I have got to go on. This is why I made this thread, no disrespect to u or anyone else who has chatted to me on this subject, I just like a wide varied range of info to take from!
> 
> Then again maybe I'm spending too much time thinking and should just eat lots, train lots and let the rest take care of itself. Maybe bang in a gram of test for good measure!


No you are right and you are right to question and validate everything - the trouble is we ALL have our own liitle dogmatic beliefs of what we "think" works with probably no good reason other than habit lol

I think I told you before that I actually dont regularly practice a simple carb post work out intake........i get very fat very easily on carbs and tend to largely avoid them.

I also have NEVER taken insulin for the same reasons.

I am however aware of most protocols in bodybuilding


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## Fatstuff

Uriel said:


> No you are right and you are right to question and validate everything - the trouble is we ALL have our own liitle dogmatic beliefs of what we "think" works with probably no good reason other than habit lol
> 
> I think I told you before that I actually dont regularly practice a simple carb post work out intake........i get very fat very easily on carbs and tend to largely avoid them.
> 
> I also have NEVER taken insulin for the same reasons.
> 
> I am however aware of most protocols in bodybuilding


I've got some insulin in my fridge, not got the balls to use it yet. Was free so who am I to turn it down lol.


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## xpower

Look into CPWO on Dats site for an alternative view on things


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## Uriel

xpower said:


> Look into CPWO on Dats site for an alternative view on things


linky??


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## xpower

http://www.datbtrue.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?132-CPWO


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## Fatstuff

xpower said:


> http://www.datbtrue.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?132-CPWO


Dead link


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## bayman

Some gems from another thread on here (courtesy of hacksii amongst others), if only people did some searching first ;-)



> *Regulation of GLUT4 protein and glycogen synthase during muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise.*
> 
> Ivy JL, Kuo CH.
> 
> Department of Kinesiology, The University of Texas at Austin, 78712, USA.
> 
> The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following its depletion by exercise is biphasic. Initially, there is a rapid, insulin independent increase in the muscle glycogen stores. This is then followed by a slower insulin dependent rate of synthesis. Contributing to the rapid phase of glycogen synthesis is an increase in muscle cell membrane permeability to glucose, which serves to increase the intracellular concentration of glucose-6-phosphate (G6P) and activate glycogen synthase. Stimulation of glucose transport by muscle contraction as well as insulin is largely mediated by translocation of the glucose transporter isoform GLUT4 from intracellular sites to the plasma membrane. Thus, the increase in membrane permeability to glucose following exercise most likely reflects an increase in GLUT4 protein associated with the plasma membrane. This insulin-like effect on muscle glucose transport induced by muscle contraction, however, reverses rapidly after exercise is stopped. As this direct effect on transport is lost, it is replaced by a marked increase in the sensitivity of muscle glucose transport and glycogen synthesis to insulin. Thus, the second phase of glycogen synthesis appears to be related to an increased muscle insulin sensitivity. Although the cellular modifications responsible for the increase in insulin sensitivity are unknown, it apparently helps maintain an increased number of GLUT4 transporters associated with the plasma membrane once the contraction-stimulated effect on translocation has reversed. It is also possible that an increase in GLUT4 protein expression plays a role during the insulin dependent phase.


So glucose sensitivity initially PWO is due to GLUT4 upregulating as a response to exercise, then insulin plays it's part afterwards. This backs up the assertion that you don't need to spike insulin, and slower carbs will do the job just fine also.



> There`s so many studies for & against high-GI post-exercise.
> 
> Which study do you base your diet on?
> 
> Well then lets look at all the facts then.
> 
> 1. Will muscle glycogen be replenished with either form of carbohydrate? Yes.
> 
> 2. Has there been any study saying the faster muscle glycogen is replenished the better for muscle growth? Not really. They say muscle glycogen resynthesis rates aren't changed. If we were concerned with replenishing muscle and liver glygogen fast for energy requirements and repeated exercise bouts then its a whole different story. We're not concerned with that here. Strickly muscle repair.
> 
> 2. Is there any benefit of creating a HUGE insulin spike? IMO, no because muscle gylcogen replenishment in its first phase is independent of insulin. After that its followed by a slower insulin dependent phase. Sound like low GI would be better for that without the risk of excess glucose being present.
> 
> So after lookin at those points deduced from the studies above it seems both methods work. One method just has a bigger risk of creating a nice little tire around your waist
> 
> You guys judge for yourselves.


The quote above is not my words, but they echo the points I'm making, and what the research tells us. Using exogenous insulin PWO is a completely different ball game to "spiking" your own in my opinion.


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## bayman

xpower said:


> http://www.datbtrue.co.uk/forums/forumdisplay.php?132-CPWO


I don't agree with carbless PWO, but there are people who've had success with it.


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## bdcc

Dtlv74 said:


> *I don't think PWO carbs do anything for muscle growth *- both the science says they don't, and more importantly I've not noticed that I miss anything when not using PWO carbs.
> 
> I do however find though that if I've been very active (lots of physical activity and doing weights plus some form of cardio almost every day), replenishing my glycogen levels PWO does make a big positive difference and help me feel recovered a lot faster than when not taking them... without them in this circumstance I'm just a dribbling tired mess slumped in a chair for the rest of the day after a workout.
> 
> On days that are a 45 min weights session only though I feel no real advantage and don't bother with them... although for nutrient partitioning effects (excess carbs to be stored as glycogen rather than fat), PWO or immediately pre workout is the very best time to take them.


On the other side of the argument, if you were bulking why 'wouldn't' you have carbs post workout?

This isn't directed at your post. Sometimes people quote science like "leucine alone spikes MPS to X degree" and "glycogen stores replenish with water alone over Y time frame when compared to pro:carb shakes" etc but for people that are bulking they aren't looking for the minimum. Calories will still have a role. For example, I can take 150g post workout of mixed carb powders, whether that is necessary or not for the post workout "window" is one thing but when it comes to muscle gaining the overall caloric total is another.

Case in point, liquid meals. Some people say there is no need but the other side (like pscarb evidently) can take a large liquid feeding and follow it with food and have a higher caloric consumption.

Thoughts?


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## bayman

Some great reading here too: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/supplementation-articles/6194-post-workout-insulin.html

Some quotes from a LOT of info:



> I think the reason why everyone consumes high GI carbs post workout is to replenish their muscle glycogen levels and to combat the insulin level post workout. U have a small window of opportunity post workout when your body is most primed to absorb nutrients. I think worrying about consuming high vs. low GI carbs post workout is rather trivial. To simplfy it (for those of U unfamiliar) glycogen is in muscle and glucose floats around in the blood (at a very small amount). The glycogen only lasts about 10 min, so like AT said, you should be more concerned about pre-workout complex carbs IMO. They would be much more beneficial.
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> Also people think the faster you replenish glycogen stores the faster rate of synthesis will occur and thats just not true.
> 
> The oatmeal is not even for the first phase of glycogen replenishment because that phase is not insulin independent. It's more for the second insulin dependent stage which is much more prolonged.
> 
> --------------------
> 
> exercise in itself makes you extremely insulin sensitive therefore just about any form of carb will immedietly be put to use
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> Catabolism post workout is highly exaggerated. ANY insulin response stops any form of catabolism not to mention GH secretions last up to 60 minutes post exercise.
> 
> -----------------------
> 
> Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.
> 
> Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.
> 
> Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.
> 
> Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: < 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> This is where your wrong. Speed is not the key, in terms of glucose. THere is no evidence sating that increased glycogen storage equals a greater rate of synthesis. In fact it states the oppisite in that you can have a large quick spike or a slower spike and the rate stays the same. Its aminos that are the trigger and key to increased rate of synthesis, not insulin.
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> Since exercise alone increases a cell's sensitivity to insulin, dextrose isn't neccessary to replace glycogen. Glycogen can be restored via other methods. You've increased insulin sensitivity already via anaerobic exercise; you are increasing the possibility for spillage by introducing dextrose/malto......the rate of glycogen restoration isn't the same as the rate of protein synthesis.
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> Conventional thinking helped by numerous marketing ads tell us we need to replenish glycogen as fast as we can and we need to creat a large spike to accomplish this. They are totally wrong. They have zero studies supporting this. The studies they use say there is a greater glycogen replenishent (which DOES NOT increase the RATE)with high GI and that is it. They conclude in no way that the rate of protein synthesis is increased and just recently studies have shown that aminos, NOT insulin, are what triggers protein synthesis. The point is that a large spike, or faster spike, is NOT needed.
> 
> Exercise induces sensitivity meaning that a lower GI carb will have a more pronounced insulin spike [than normal] BECAUSE of the sensitivity. A high GI source will have the same effect. Since there is an insulin INDEPENDENT stage and studies clearly show that not all glucose is being utlilized by the exercise (study clearly states that as well) the need for such a large spike is not needed. Insulin, even hyperinsulinemia, post exercise does not cause a significant increase in protein synthesis (study clearly states).
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> High G.I. carbs work great and most of what Berardi says is correct. But what he may not understand himself (as he is a writer first and a lifter second), is that low G.I. is the better choice, accomplishing the same goal (anabolism) while leaving rollercoaster ride of up and down blood sugar levels in the past. With a pre-workout meal, steak, chicken, whey protein shake, etc combined with about 50 gms of carbs (oatmeal, sweet potato, etc) your muscles will be supplied with a constant supply of aminos throughout the workout, and will not be "screaming" for a protein fix by workout's end. Thus there is just NO NEED for a huge and dramatic insulin spike here.
> 
> -------------------------
> 
> there is no need to spike insulin when glycogen synthesis can occur without it
> 
> ----------------------------
> 
> ANY insulin spike eliminates cortisol. It doesn't have to be a big one. Your body is highly responsive to any nutrient taken post workout. Do you think your body sits there and thinks whether it should release insulin or not? Do you think a low GI sources will not produce an insulin response?


And:



> The use of High GI would be extremely helpful in endurance type training since the object is to fill glycogen stores (both muscle and liver) to account for the energy expenditure that will follow. With resistance training there is no further energy expenditure that will deplete glyocgen stores further so the need for such drastic spikes and quick replenishment is not needed. People also say that you must refill stores quickly to eliminate catabolism. Well GH is produced at high levels well after (50-60minutes) after exercise is completed so the whole catabolism is overrated. It's important but overrated.
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> People keep thinking I'm anti-insulin but that would be nuts. I just prefer a more stable release that will coincided with both phases (if it even needed in phase 1) There has been no evidence that a high SPIKE in insulin increases the rate of synthesis. It just increases the glycogen storage quicker.


Plenty of further reading and references in the link too.


----------



## bayman

bdcc said:


> On the other side of the argument, if you were bulking why 'wouldn't' you have carbs post workout?
> 
> This isn't directed at your post. Sometimes people quote science like "leucine alone spikes MPS to X degree" and "glycogen stores replenish with water alone over Y time frame when compared to pro:carb shakes" etc but for people that are bulking they aren't looking for the minimum. Calories will still have a role. For example, I can take 150g post workout of mixed carb powders, whether that is necessary or not for the post workout "window" is one thing but when it comes to muscle gaining the overall caloric total is another.
> 
> Case in point, liquid meals. Some people say there is no need but the other side (like pscarb evidently) can take a large liquid feeding and follow it with food and have a higher caloric consumption.
> 
> Thoughts?


If the liquid meals allow for greater claoric consumption then that's just common sense. It's the extra cals and nutrients doing the work though, not they're supposed "fast acting proteins" and insulin "spiking" carbs that the meal contains.


----------



## bdcc

bayman said:


> If the liquid meals allow for greater claoric consumption then that's just common sense. It's the extra cals and nutrients doing the work though, not they're supposed "fast acting proteins" and insulin "spiking" carbs that the meal contains.


Absolutely, I didn't say otherwise.

A very educated product formulator in the States said when asked on his fanciest post workout formula, cost aside and he said there would be no point because it ends up doing the same thing anyway- this is mostly my view, to a point.

I love the science behind things and the studies being brought up are always interesting but a lot of them do not have real world crossover i.e., leucine compared to no feeding or BCAAs to empty stomach. A liquid meal will work better than no meal but might work equally to a solid meal but I do not consume the liquid meal because I believe it is more efficient than any strict solid food, isocaloric comparison. I consume the liquid meal because it is easier to drink when I am feeling sick after a workout and allows me to eat an hour later. When I am in bulking phases this makes complete sense and renders a lot of the studies useless because the main reason I do it is simply to allow for a higher caloric total over my other options.


----------



## bayman

bdcc said:


> Absolutely, I didn't say otherwise.
> 
> A very educated product formulator in the States said when asked on his fanciest post workout formula, cost aside and he said there would be no point because it ends up doing the same thing anyway- this is mostly my view, to a point.


Kinda related to the above, one of my favourite posts on this subject is Alan Aragon critiquing Biotest Surge (a "state of the art" PWO recovery type supp) verses good old chocolate milk.

On the balance of his analysis, chocolate milk came out on top!

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/an-objective-comparison-of-chocolate-milk-and-surge-recovery.html



bdcc said:


> I love the science behind things and the studies being brought up are always interesting but a lot of them do not have real world crossover i.e., leucine compared to no feeding or BCAAs to empty stomach. A liquid meal will work better than no meal but might work equally to a solid meal but I do not consume the liquid meal because I believe it is more efficient than any strict solid food, isocaloric comparison. *I consume the liquid meal because it is easier to drink when I am feeling sick after a workout and allows me to eat an hour later.* When I am in bulking phases this makes complete sense and renders a lot of the studies useless because the main reason I do it is simply to allow for a higher caloric total over my other options.


The bit I highlighted is the important bit.

If using a liquid meal works for you, that's fine, it's personal convenience and it makes sense to get a bulk of your cals PWO. For others though (like me) I have no problem chowing down 2000kcal of food in a short space of time PWO.

So long as you realise your approach works because of the increased clas and nutrients it's providing (which you do) rather than any purported "amino surge" or "insulin spike" then it's all gravy


----------



## 3752

Fatstuff said:


> This is the whole thing entirely and the whole point of me making this thread, I have what I have read and what I have done but I am not long in my years at this game so I don't know my body nowhere as near as u or pscarb.
> 
> I try to question everything as there is a lot of bull5hit floating around and it's hard to separate the nuggets from the 5hit and unless I can fast forward 10-20 years then information and other ppl's experiences is all I have got to go on. This is why I made this thread, no disrespect to u or anyone else who has chatted to me on this subject, I just like a wide varied range of info to take from!
> 
> Then again maybe I'm spending too much time thinking and should just eat lots, train lots and let the rest take care of itself. Maybe bang in a gram of test for good measure!


i think it is good to question things, nothing for me is 100% accurate for everyone as we are all different as many know(especially Bayman) although i like studies i do feel many are not easily crossed over to the real world......

for many years i did a carbless PWO diet when prepping for a show last year when prepping for the Universe i took in Carbs post workout and my condition did not suffer yet i kept more size to previous years so for me PWO carbs make sense maybe not to others....


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## Rick89

Alot of very good points and info here, and great to see an outlook from different opinions

Im also with Paul on the point not all studies cross over to real world trials/methods

Although I see alot of good points from bayman also

Good thread IMO


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## bayman

I do feel Paul is misrepresenting my point a little.

I'm not anti-carb PWO, just anti simple carbs - they're simply not necessary. If a shake and some malto means you get in more cals PWO, that's fine, it's no better than steak and potatoes though. I just hate how it's folklore now that "one shall have his whey and simple carbs" PWO without any science to actually back it up.


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## 3752

bayman said:


> I do feel Paul is misrepresenting my point a little.
> 
> I'm not anti-carb PWO, just anti simple carbs - they're simply not necessary. If a shake and some malto means you get in more cals PWO, that's fine, it's no better than steak and potatoes though. I just hate how it's folklore now that "one shall have his whey and simple carbs" PWO without any science to actually back it up.


not misrepresenting anything mate as my last post was not aimed at anything you have said.......i put your name in it just to say that i do challenge studies from time to time.......i agree that carbs PWO are carbs PWO my point in the last post was to highlight i had tried the carbless PWO method and found no advantage to me....


----------



## dtlv

bdcc said:


> On the other side of the argument, if you were bulking why 'wouldn't' you have carbs post workout?
> 
> This isn't directed at your post. Sometimes people quote science like "leucine alone spikes MPS to X degree" and "glycogen stores replenish with water alone over Y time frame when compared to pro:carb shakes" etc but for people that are bulking they aren't looking for the minimum. Calories will still have a role. For example, I can take 150g post workout of mixed carb powders, whether that is necessary or not for the post workout "window" is one thing but when it comes to muscle gaining the overall caloric total is another.
> 
> Case in point, liquid meals. Some people say there is no need but the other side (like pscarb evidently) can take a large liquid feeding and follow it with food and have a higher caloric consumption.
> 
> Thoughts?


Agree completely - I use shakes to help get my kcals in because I struggle to eat enough otherwise, and carbs in the PWO shake is a great time to do it as, as Bayman has pointed out, GLUT4 translocation, and activity of enzymes like cAMP and AMPK post exercise, means that glucose is preferentially transported into the cell with less action of insulin, and excess glucose is more likely to be stored as glycogen than fat at this time... PWO is a great time for carbs due to this nutrient partitioning effect.


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## 3752

anab0lic said:


> Not needed, actually detrimental for bodybuilding purposes, take it from someone whos done it both ways for years.


totally disagree....


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## dtlv

anab0lic said:


> Not needed, actually detrimental for bodybuilding purposes, take it from someone whos done it both ways for years.


just how is it detrimental? Please elaborate.

Have tried both with and without too, and never found workout carbs problematic at all, just that it in some circumstances (when I'm sedentary other than weightraining and my workouts are brief) it doesn't seem to offer any advantage.


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## dtlv

bayman said:


> I do feel Paul is misrepresenting my point a little.
> 
> I'm not anti-carb PWO, just anti simple carbs - they're simply not necessary.


Would you really say you were 'anti' simple carbs though, or was that just a turn of phrase? I don't think there's any reason to be anti any nutrient... all nutrients have a place and can healthily fit into a diet that is sensible.


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## dtlv

Glyocen restoration is indeed overhyped for a bodybuilder, and is more a concern of endurance athletes who deplete their glycogen levels at a more accelerated rate... but still, if you are going to eat carbs (which does help strength-endurance), the PWO period is a good time to do them due to the exercise stimualted action of GLUT4 which sees a greater percentage of excess carbs consumed used to resynthesise glycogen rather than as fat gain at this time.

Also in this PWO state of glucose sensitivity, carbs are taken into cells with less action of insulin, which promotes a healthier glucose metabolism, and there are some studies which show that super saturation of glycogen stores PWO actually promote greater baseline levels of glycogen storage even at other times, thus extending the nutrient partitioning effect even beyond the PWO period. This is all good for a bodybuilder as it helps promote a slightly leaner physique from the same nutrient intake, purely because of smarter timing of your carbs.

In respect of supression of GH release two points: firstly carbs tend to delay GH pulses more than totally supress them, and secondly the GH response specific to exercise and activity is simply a hormonal response designed to minimise catabolism of lean tissue until the body gets an influx of energy from diet anyway, and itdoesn't really have an anabolic or significant fat burning effect overall... I know people like Fred Hatfield advocate prioritising GH at this time, but IMO the importance of GH release from exercise is overhyped and overestimated.

Intramuscular fat is not as effective a fuel for anaerobic activites...it just doesn't provide ATP at a rate fast enough to sustain maximal stength for as long... each time I've been in keto, the only time when IMTG's are used in higher proportion than glycogen, I find it impossible to do as many reps as I normally would if running more off glycogen, even accounting for calorie deficit.


----------



## bdcc

anab0lic said:


> Carbs pre/post workout = supression of growth hormone release.
> 
> I dont know why everyone is so obsessed with glycogen restoration - actually scrap that, I do... the supplement industry has done a darn good job convincing people they need to buy their fancy packaged sugar powder to make their muscles big.... I dont have the study off hand (but can dig it up if you really want) where a group of subjects were put through high intensity/high volume leg weight training and the amount of gylocgen depletion was TINY. #Unless you are an athlete training several hours a day - day in day out, it really isnt something you need to worry about. Even then, its debatable how neccerssary glycogen levels needing to be full for maximum performance really is, as the body can use intramuscular fat for high intensity activitys...


This is looking at an isolated factor and trying to reach a conclusion on a multitude of other factors.

For example, studies have shown you can replenish glycogen stores without any carbs, this doesn't make post workout carbs obsolete rather than make it almost pointless for someone who is training once per day to 'need' to replenish them instantly.

Someone like myself, Dtlv74 or Pscarb (I assume) consume carbs post workout for caloric consumption towards the total daily intake rather than needing to replenish glycogen stores straight away.

This is the point on my original post, people can identify one factor and a sufficient way to address those needs and not look past it. For example, you can spike MPS with leucine alone, does that mean you are only going to use leucine, probably not because there are other reasons you would want all of your amino acids. MPS is only one part of the puzzle in the same way glycogen replenishment is only one, very small part of the puzzle.


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## andymc88

Me personally don't believe fast digesting carbs are better than slow digesting I cycled fast/slow of 2month each at same dose 80g post workout and the really only differences I found was with the fast I gained alot of bad weight compared to the slow release carbs, I bulked for 4months so did the fast carbs for first 2month then slow for other 2month, another I noticed after the the 4month I upped my pwo carbs agen but only using slow release and still didn't gain much fat 120-150g but with the fast I gained fat with 80g, don't no if I'm wrong but my own thoughts on it maybe my body has a limit to what it can digest in a certain amount of time and anything over the certain amount got stored as fat,

Sorry if ive totally missed the purpose of this thread


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## bayman

Dtlv74 said:


> Would you really say you were 'anti' simple carbs though, or was that just a turn of phrase? I don't think there's any reason to be anti any nutrient... all nutrients have a place and can healthily fit into a diet that is sensible.


I'm anti simple carbs in the sense of Dextrose / malto PWO, yes,. Unless that is you a specific need for it i.e. Athlete training multiple times per day, endurance runner etc etc. I'm not anti simple carbs as in fruit and those found in other wholefoods, and of course with a good overall diet you can find some wiggle room for a bit of sugar from those less than desirable "junk" type foods, so long as you're aware of overall caloric balance.


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## 3752

On the comment of carbs of any type suppressing GH release post workout please come on mate be realistic how much GH do you think is released? Through training? And I have done carbless PWO and it has made no difference.


----------



## bayman

Pscarb said:


> On the comment of carbs of any type suppressing GH release post workout please come on mate be realistic how much GH do you think is released? Through training? And I have done carbless PWO and it has made no difference.


Yep, levels of GH produced by the body do jack for building tissue or burning fat.


----------



## Thunderstruck

I have post work out carbs in the form of pro recover, not worried bout the science, just know it tastes ****in good and keeps me happy for the drive home and i know maybe proper food is just as good or even better but who feels like eating steak etc straight after a workout!!??

Post workout is the only time i try to have simple carbs coz its like a treat yet i feel it helps me recover quicker and if i didnt have it by the time i get home im ravanous and would literally eat any old ****e.


----------



## hackskii

I found this by John Berardi.

Snip:

* While the GH increase from training is pretty big in untrained subjects (10 fold increase), it's not quite as big in trained guys (4-5 fold increase) (1,2,3,4).

* Either way, the GH increase is very brief. It's at its peak immediately after exercise, is double about 15 minutes after exercise, and is back down to baseline at 30-60 minutes after exercise (2,3).

* The GH release you get during the first few hours of sleep time is about a 20-fold increase in GH, while the normal GH pulses that occur during the day are between 10 and 15 fold (5). Not only are these pulses larger than the post-exercise pulse, but they last longer, too (1-3 hours).

References

1. Journal of Applied Physiology; 88 (3), 982-992, 1999.

2. Journal of Applied Physiology; 85 (4), 1544-1555, 1998.

3. European Journal of Endocrinology; 141 (1), 22-26, 1999.

4. European Journal of Applied Physiology; 78 (1), 69-76, 1998.

5. Science; 177, 1205, 1972.


----------



## bayman

anab0lic said:


> You should be able to.. IMO.. restore the tiny amount of gylcogen depletion from workout to workout via gluconeogenesis + the small amount of trace carbs people tend to have when eating keto... so it really shouldnt be an issue anyways. Where is the advantage in full replenishment immediately?


You're underestimating how much exercise depletes glycogen. Whilst I agree that it's not as significant as supp companies like to make out it definitely IS depleted to various degrees, depending on volume, intensity and frequency of workouts.

I agree there's no benefit to replenishing immediately unless you're an athlete and need to perform again in a few hours timw, but carbs do a better job of glycogen replenishment than glycogenesis (which is limited). They also taste good and the foods that contain them can have their own health benefits - fruit for example.



anab0lic said:


> I stay in keto year round, the only carb ups i do are when I give in to the temptation of eating some crap - which may happen a couple of times a month...and I ALLWAYS regeret that. I don't notice any loss in performance without carbs in my diet... infact whenever i do include them I feel/look worse - lethargic/bloated/ not as lean.


If keto works you, that's fine. There is evidence that there a different phenotypes that do better on higher fat or higher carb. Some (like me) do better on the moderate approach.



anab0lic said:


> And while the GH supression may not make a huge difference in one single workout... add up all those small changes over time... and since theres absolutely no benefit having carbs PWO, why not have that working in your favour? Fat at this time creates a far more anabolic environment byond just GH secretion - increased test levels, protein absorbtion and a bucnh of other stuff (been a while since i read up on this stuff in depth) admitedly these things are far more improtant to the guy whos not injecting hormones though. And lets not forget what should be priority numero uno, over having bulging biceps...your health!


Endogenous GH really does contribute jack in the bigger picture, this is why I always find it hilarious people saying Squats are best for overall growth as they illicit GH. You're also over-egging the role of fat, it only aids in an anabolic environment if you were deficient in it in the first place, it's not like more fat = more test. It doesn't have an additive effect.



anab0lic said:


> RE: intramuscular fats as fuel for high intensity work, where are you getting your info on them not being efficient? there really isnt alot of info on the subject if you search around...i do believe the more you condition your body to use fat as fuel the more efficient it becomes at using it. Dr Mauro Pasqual (sp?) has alot of good info regarding that about how the body makes pathway adaptations the longer you stay using fat.


IMTG (intra muscular triglycerides) aren't efficient as a fuel source as the muscle has a very small store of them, no matter how fat adapted you are. Glycogen is a much larger store and far more efficient to covert to ATP. I've personal experience of using a very low carb diet for about 12months, and gym performance suffered. Again, depends on volume, intensity, duration, frequency.



anab0lic said:


> There was an interview with a sweedish professional triathalon athelete I listened to a while back, who for many years did the whole glycogen loading etc for his endurence events and eventually developed intolerances to some of the foods he was eating and could no longer eat that way...looking around for other options he decided to give keto a shot and his performances actually IMPROVED. Some food for thought...  Anacdotal evidence like this really means a whole lot more to me than what a scientific text book says should happen.. but quite often doesnt when applied in the real world.


I've no doubt some sports would suit a lower carb / keto approach, and I also understand how the vilification of fats is / has been wrong. But I think you're off the mark in so far as carbs being useless PWO and glycogen restoration being immaterial.


----------



## dtlv

bayman said:


> I'm anti simple carbs in the sense of Dextrose / malto PWO, yes,. Unless that is you a specific need for it i.e. Athlete training multiple times per day, endurance runner etc etc. I'm not anti simple carbs as in fruit and those found in other wholefoods, and of course with a good overall diet you can find some wiggle room for a bit of sugar from those less than desirable "junk" type foods, so long as you're aware of overall caloric balance.


I see where you're coming from and yes I agree - there's nothing magical at all about malto or dex, and a superior choice nutritionally would be fruit with all the auxillary nutrients... malto, dex, waxy maize powder (and also artificial complex carbs like palatinose) provide calories only and no nutritional value at all... in small quantities no probs, but if for some reason someone wants a high intake of simple sugars, reducing the processed stuff and prioritising intake of wholefood sources of simple carbs is a far healthier choice.

The only advantages I can give to the fast carb supps are convenience, very low cost when bought in bulk, and ease of calorie measurement.


----------



## dtlv

anab0lic said:


> You should be able to.. IMO.. restore the tiny amount of gylcogen depletion from workout to workout via gluconeogenesis + the small amount of trace carbs people tend to have when eating keto... so it really shouldnt be an issue anyways. Where is the advantage in full replenishment immediately?
> 
> I stay in keto year round, the only carb ups i do are when I give in to the temptation of eating some crap - which may happen a couple of times a month...and I ALLWAYS regeret that. I don't notice any loss in performance without carbs in my diet... infact whenever i do include them I feel/look worse - lethargic/bloated/ not as lean.
> 
> If you look at the likes of vince gironda, Rheo blair and other old skool nutritionists (who were way way ahead of there time), they all ate low carb + had their trainees eat in such a manner and they grew just fine! A mistake I often see when people run keto is they dont take in anywhere near enough fat - probably due to the irrational fear of fats people have...then say it didnt work for them. My diet is 70-80% fat, the rest comming from protein...if i alter those ratios to 50-50 fat/pro or more pro than fat (which i see many many people do and call it keto) i dont perform anywhere near as well. I suspect the body is trying to convert alot of that protein into glucose to meet energy demands which isnt efficient. I actually think we have gone backwards in
> 
> terms of whats effective nutrition wise in bodybuilding over the years and in many ways how alot of people now train to... but increased drug use tends to mask that BIGTIME.
> 
> And while the GH supression may not make a huge difference in one single workout... add up all those small changes over time... and since theres absolutely no benefit having carbs PWO, why not have that working in your favour? Fat at this time creates a far more anabolic environment byond just GH secretion - increased test levels, protein absorbtion and a bucnh of other stuff (been a while since i read up on this stuff in depth) admitedly these things are far more improtant to the guy whos not injecting hormones though. If its calories you are after PWO, fats have more calories gram for gram and can be taking in liquid form to. And lets not forget what should be priority numero uno, over having bulging biceps...your health!
> 
> RE: intramuscular fats as fuel for high intensity work, where are you getting your info on them not being efficient? there really isnt alot of info on the subject if you search around...i do believe the more you condition your body to use fat as fuel the more efficient it becomes at using it. Dr Mauro Pasqual (sp?) has alot of good info regarding that about how the body makes pathway adaptations the longer you stay using fat.
> 
> Tbh there really hasnt been enough research done on how well atheletes etc can perform with fats as their primary fuel source and it seems most professionals are reluctant to make the switch, due to dietry fat phobia... and I dont blame them we have misinformed about the effects of fats on our health for so long now...people look at you like you have a few screws loose if you tell them to eat a high fat diet. When I first started eating the way I eat now I actually had panic attacks sitting down to plates of burgers and bacon.. thinking I was going to drop dead of a heart attack right there and
> 
> then!
> 
> There was an interview with a sweedish professional triathalon athelete I listened to a while back, who for many years did the whole glycogen loading etc for his endurence events and eventually developed intolerances to some of the foods he was eating and could no longer eat that way...looking around for other options he decided to give keto a shot and his performances actually IMPROVED. Some food for thought...  Anacdotal evidence like this really means a whole lot more to me than what a scientific text book says should happen.. but quite often doesnt when applied in the real world.


I can see where you are coming from with all this - I spent almost half a year trying to train whilst following a ketogenic diet, and was very hopeful of the suggested benefits... but for me it just didn't happen the same it appears to for you.

When adjusted to keto longterm, many of the issues you (and everyone else) experience with a dirty carb day seem related to the body simply being not used to handling a sudden influx of sugar - longterm keto diets (especially without regular carb refeeds) cause massive reductions in the digestive enzymes that are responsible for the digestion of carbs, and also cause alterations in the proportions of the various intestinal bacteria, and bloating and intestinal discomfort are common due to this when carbs are suddenly eaten in quantity. Is slightly off target to say this issue is down to a negative property of carbs though, as it's more to do with how the body has adapted in the absence of carbs.

Also, longterm keto diets alter insulin sensitvity - they increase insulin sensitivity in the muscles, internal organs and brain (as glucose is prioritised by those tissues, and this is all good) but it also simultaneously reduces insulin sensitivity in fat cells (as part fo the glucose sparing mechanism for the organs and muscles). This means that when the body has for a long time been ketogenic and you suddenly eat a shed load of carbs as per a dirty refeed, the body needs to secrete insulin to promote fat storage, and much more insulin than the body has been used to kicking out whilst on keto and not carbing up or would do if never having been keto (unless diabetic or pre diabetic)... this promotes an exaggerated cortisol rebound once the over elevated insulin has lowerd blood sugar too much (which happens because of skeletal muscle and the organs being over sensitive to the insulin), and this gives a period of hypoglyceamia, low energy levels and grumpiness... but again, its the sudden switch between keto and suddenly having high blood sugar that causes the issues, not because carbs automatically do this.

Keto diets are great for stabilising blood sugar at low levels (iirc baseline blood sugar is about 30-40% normal on keto), and for all the time you remain ketogenic all is good... but what you've actually done at the same time is set yourself up to handle large intakes of carbohydrate very badly, and when reintroducing carbs there's a lengthy adjustment period where you feel [email protected] as the body adapts (just like the early phase of being in keto are usually pretty rough because the body needs to adapt to achieve efficiency).

In respect of energy from Intramuscular fats, research the rates of ADP-ATP conversion from lipids and from glucose... is scientifically well established that even though beta oxidation/breaking down fats yeilds a greater amount of energy (fat contains more than double the kcals of glucose), the rate at which this conversion occurs is much slower. This means that maximal exercise is not possible to be sustained for as long because a continual very fast replenishment of ATP is required to sustain the energy burst. Lipids provide enough energy, they just don't relase it quite fast enough. In fairness we are only talking about all out anaerobic exercise here - a hunded meter sprint or a 1-5rep max lift performed as fast as possible... lower intensity and no issue.


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## 3752

Great posts guys.......


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## Breda

Pscarb:2590250 said:


> Great posts guys.......


X2

Can they be translated into English please


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## hackskii

Two other factors nobody has brought up with keto diets is, eicosanoid production, and thyroid function long term keto dieting.

Fantastic posts guys.


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## dtlv

anab0lic said:


> Still have yet to see one good reason to include carbs in your diet, yet there is a plethora of reasons not to.
> 
> If you really care about this stuff, you owe it to yourself to listen to what this guy has to say. I have not in the god knows how many thousands of hours I've spent searching the interenet reading up on nutrition to try and find the truth (as everywhere u go 'experts' will contradict each other) come across anyone whos gone to the extremes this guy has gone to... to really analyze this stuff in great depth.... His book is by far the best read on the subject you will find. Its a shame he gave it such a cheesey name, otherwise i think it would have gotten far more recognition than it has thus far.
> 
> Intro about who he is:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interview where he breifly touches on subject of what weve been discussing here etc..


Mate am familiar with Ellis, as well as guys like Eades... a lot of what I believe comes from seeing poor science in their conculsions, and looking to a wider scoope of evidence and personal experiences.


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## bayman

Dtlv74 said:


> Mate am familiar with Ellis, as well as guys like Eades... a lot of what I believe comes from seeing poor science in their conculsions, and looking to a wider scoope of evidence and personal experiences.


I'm familiar with him too, he joins my list of: Eades, Taubes, Hahn, Sisson, Lustig etc etc as those who go cherry picking research to support their beliefs. Also known as cognitive dissonance.

I'm all for eliminating (or minimising) refined and nutrient void carbs from your diet, but getting rid of them all is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" in my opinion.


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## Uriel

most i have learned on this forum in a long time - brilliant thread


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## bayman

Uriel said:


> most i have learned on this forum in a long time - brilliant thread


Nice to know someone appreciates it! Sometime feel I'm wading against a tide of protein shakes.


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## Uriel

lol - its nice to see well put together in depth discussion backed up with studies presented by intelligent people....it never falls on deaf ears mate


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## s3_abv

Great thread this.

Some really knowledgeable people on here too.

Thanks for the info guys.


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## hackskii

I forgot to add that in the snip from the article that I copied from the Author suggests that carbohydrates don't blunt GH post workout, and that the studies used were carbohydrate infusions with endurance athletes that lowered GH, and not relevant to resistance training.

In fact he went so far as to say that (and I will quote him):

*Actually, according to 2 studies, a post-workout meal of carbs and protein INCREASED the post-workout GH release when compared to fasting after the workout (2, 8). In the first study, a 50-g protein plus 100-g carb drink taken after training increased GH response to exercise vs. no beverage. In addition, in the second study, a 1.06 g/kg carb plus 0.4 g/kg protein beverage stimulated better GH release over the next 6 hours vs. no beverage. So much for the post-workout GH myth; it looks like post-workout nutrition actually can enhance the GH release so many cherish. *

I have to admit though, some stuff does seem to contradict, I have a feeling the supplement industry does tend to run interference on this one.


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## bayman

Where has Gironda stated catergorically that he was carb free?

And no, you're not mutants, but may well be limiting how well you can grow, recover and train.


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## dtlv

anab0lic said:


> So to conclude... myself,Gironda all his trainees and everyone else thats grown just fine carb free are genetic mutants yes?


No, not at all... just like all the thousands and thousands of people who haven't followed keto or low carb diets and have grown well and lost fat aren't freaks either - the body is pretty adaptable physiologically and can adapt to and success with a variety of dietary approaches.


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## Fatstuff

anab0lic said:


> So to conclude... myself,Gironda all his trainees and everyone else thats grown just fine carb free are genetic mutants yes?


pics or its not true  (of u not vince gironda)


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## hackskii

Vince did have his guys eat like tons of organic eggs, and many many dessicated liver tabs, and diets very high in fats.


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## dtlv

hackskii said:


> Vince did have his guys eat like tons of organic eggs, and many many dessicated liver tabs, and diets very high in fats.


Yep, the stone age diet as he called it was 36 eggs a day, pints of half and half milk, several large steaks and a few lbs of green veg, fruit, nuts and berries and liver tabs. It wasn't ketogenic due to the high protein content, milk, and high green veg intake, but was pretty close to what most people would call low carb... only around 100g per day.

Was the first diet I tried actually


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## BenderRodriguez

And how d'ya get in with it?


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