# Can your genetics change over time?



## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

I'm sure mine has. Been training 12 years natty and I'm in worse shape now than I was 2 years after I started training. Back then I was nice and chunky, relatively lean and had people commenting on my size/arms etc. As the years went on, and my diet got cleaner and training heavier, I seem to have gone backwards in my physique. Bizarre.

I find it a lot harder now to stay lean so I can't really bulk as it just makes me fat. Cutting isn't really an option as I feel skinny fat as it is. Nowhere to go but spin my wheels. Lol


----------



## DORIAN (Feb 8, 2011)

MFM said:


> I'm sure mine has. Been training 12 years natty and I'm in worse shape now than I was 2 years after I started training. Back then I was nice and chunky, relatively lean and had people commenting on my size/arms etc. As the years went on, and my diet got cleaner and training heavier, I seem to have gone backwards in my physique. Bizarre.
> 
> I find it a lot harder now to stay lean so I can't really bulk as it just makes me fat. Cutting isn't really an option as I feel skinny fat as it is. Nowhere to go but spin my wheels. Lol


 Your just getting older mate unfortunately


----------



## empzb (Jan 8, 2006)

Change in hormones makes it harder as a natty unfortunately.


----------



## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

No but drugs can help a ton/do something similar. 

But for natural, sorry mate.


----------



## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

One word for you mate:

Test.


----------



## gymfreak2010 (Jan 6, 2016)

Drogon said:


> No but drugs can help a ton/do something similar.
> 
> But for natural, sorry mate.


 stop drug pushing


----------



## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

UK2USA said:


> One word for you mate:
> 
> Test.


 Deep down I've known this all along and I have been contemplating for years to go to the dark side. Not sure how I feel about doing steroids long term as there's no real point otherwise?


----------



## Fluke82 (Sep 10, 2015)

gymfreak2010 said:


> stop drug pushing


 naaaaaaaaaaverrrrrrrrrrrrrr

need to make myself feel better


----------



## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

MFM said:


> Deep down I've known this all along and I have been contemplating for years to go to the dark side. Not sure how I feel about doing steroids long term as there's no real point otherwise?


 It's not the dark side mate, it's all sunshine and puffy white clouds, Dark is the mud flying around from wheel spinning 

IMO.


----------



## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

UK2USA said:


> It's not the dark side mate, it's all sunshine and puffy white clouds, Dark is the mud flying around from wheel spinning
> 
> IMO.


 I know. I'm just a big old scared girl.


----------



## gymfreak2010 (Jan 6, 2016)

Drogon said:


> naaaaaaaaaaverrrrrrrrrrrrrr
> 
> need to make myself feel better


 I often negotiate a bath with radox, that hits the spot


----------



## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

Your genetics don't change. By definition, your genetics are the same from the moment you are conceived, and stay that way until you are either cremated or the worms have finished with you.

What has probably changed over the past 10 years are your hormone levels.

Much of what is termed 'getting older' is actually just our test levels declining, and not looking after ourselves properly. I'm nearly 49, but I'm in better shape than I was at 25 - bigger, leaner, better cardiovascular condition, better blood pressure & blood lipids - and having more sex.

Test for the win


----------



## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

MFM said:


> I know. I'm just a big old scared girl.


 A couple of seconds once a week where you feel the tiny pin price of renewed gains vs stagnation and unhappiness. No brainer mate.


----------



## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

MFM said:


> Deep down I've known this all along and I have been contemplating for years to go to the dark side. Not sure how I feel about doing steroids long term as there's no real point otherwise?


 It's not 'doing steroids long term' though. It's going on TRT.

My balls were going into retirement, so the choice was simple. Take control of my test levels, or keep on declining. No brainer really. I can have the test levels of an 18 yearold for a couple of quid a week, and blast as & when I want to.


----------



## DaveW3000 (Mar 25, 2013)

Major Eyeswater said:


> It's not 'doing steroids long term' though. It's going on TRT.
> 
> My balls were going into retirement, so the choice was simple. Take control of my test levels, or keep on declining. No brainer really. I can have the test levels of an 18 yearold for a couple of quid a week, and blast as & when I want to.


 Is your TRT self prescribed mate?


----------



## Yes (May 4, 2014)

UK2USA said:


> A couple of seconds once a week where you feel the tiny pin price of renewed gains vs stagnation and unhappiness. No brainer mate.


 This, plus it has a positive mental effect too and it gives a sense of well being.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Are you just fatter now or do you think you've somehow managed to lose muscle? My bet is if you did just lose some fat you'd look better than you used to...


----------



## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

MFM said:


> I'm sure mine has. Been training 12 years natty and I'm in worse shape now than I was 2 years after I started training. Back then I was nice and chunky, relatively lean and had people commenting on my size/arms etc. As the years went on, and my diet got cleaner and training heavier, I seem to have gone backwards in my physique. Bizarre.
> 
> I find it a lot harder now to stay lean so I can't really bulk as it just makes me fat. Cutting isn't really an option as I feel skinny fat as it is. Nowhere to go but spin my wheels. Lol


 Its age, I doing it 25 years now. Losing fat is a b#stard but I guess its because i am not so active any more. Strength peaked around 34 mark I reckon. Could get back to that but the interest really isn't there.

One thing I am sure of is that what we see ourselves in the mirror is not what the average punter sees. I have heard many people saying, "he looks strong" mainly because of low bf, swimmers type physique. 99% of people on the street think he looks strong or not, not "I wonder how much he benches". Its why many kn#b heads just spend so much time doing arms in the gym.


----------



## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

Yes said:


> This, plus it has a positive mental effect too and it gives a sense of well being.


 I'm the poster boy for test. I have a 29 year old wife, two daughters, 4 and 2, I work out 4 times a week, have energy and keep busy. I'm 63 years old dude.

Before test, I would watch TV for five minutes and then the TV was watching me. I'd be fast asleep.

No dark side bro.


----------



## Yes (May 4, 2014)

UK2USA said:


> I'm the poster boy for test. I have a 29 year old wife, two daughters, 4 and 2, I work out 4 times a week, have energy and keep busy. I'm 63 years old dude.
> 
> Before test, I would watch TV for five minutes and then the TV was watching me. I'd be fast asleep.
> 
> No dark side bro.


 :beer:


----------



## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Major Eyeswater said:


> It's not 'doing steroids long term' though. It's going on TRT.
> 
> My balls were going into retirement, so the choice was simple. Take control of my test levels, or keep on declining. No brainer really. I can have the test levels of an 18 yearold for a couple of quid a week, and blast as & when I want to.


 See I don't think my test is low at all. Going by what people say, if you have low test you generally have no libido, feel down etc. I have none of that, plus there's nothing wrong with my balls. Maybe I do have low test but just don't have any of the side effects.

One thing is certain though, I'm not building muscle like I did 10 years ago.

If I did decide to start using steroids, I'd probably only do low doses, ie 250mg per week. I'm sure it will be enough to start making gains plus there should be minimal side effects, if any at all. Would you still need to do pct on such a low dose?


----------



## andyboro (Oct 1, 2006)

Could it be as much a shift in expectations as anything age related? It seems to me that the more time you spend at this, the harsher a task master you become and the higher the standards that are deemed as acceptable end up.

Age will definitely play a part but to look worse, I'd wonder if it was perception based too.


----------



## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

MFM said:


> See I don't think my test is low at all. Going by what people say, if you have low test you generally have no libido, feel down etc. I have none of that, plus there's nothing wrong with my balls. Maybe I do have low test but just don't have any of the side effects.
> 
> One thing is certain though, I'm not building muscle like I did 10 years ago.
> 
> If I did decide to start using steroids, I'd probably only do low doses, ie 250mg per week. I'm sure it will be enough to start making gains plus there should be minimal side effects, if any at all. Would you still need to do pct on such a low dose?


 Catastrophically low test causes loss of libido, depression etc, but sub-optimal test often doesn't. It may not even be low - just lower than it was 10 years ago and therefore not able to support as much muscle as you had.

250mg pw will switch off your own hormonal system just the same as a gram a week. You don't necessarily need PCT - bodybuilders in the 80's and before didn't do PCT (the concept didn't exist). They just came off and let their test production restart on it's own - with varying degrees of success.

"I'll only do 250pw" is a very noble objective, but I bet you a tenner you won't stick to it when you realise you can do twice as much & get twice the results with minimal side effects


----------



## Wheyman (Sep 6, 2011)




----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MFM said:


> One thing is certain though, I'm not building muscle like I did 10 years ago.


 It is always going to get harder to build more muscle the closer you get to your genetic limit, this isn't necessarily an age thing.

I'm not sure I understand your concern here. Do you think you have lost muscle compared to how you were after a couple of years training or not? Or is it that you just aren't gaining at the same rate? Or something else?

You posted this in the natural section so I'm trying not to give up on time natty route here...

How old are you out of interest?


----------



## lukeyybrown1 (Jun 4, 2014)

inject a little amount of testoerone this will work wonders for you

dont start going extreme and stacking compounds together

keep the love for training, diet and discipline and add a little cherry on top with some testosterone i think it will help


----------



## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> It is always going to get harder to build more muscle the closer you get to your genetic limit, this isn't necessarily an age thing.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand your concern here. Do you think you have lost muscle compared to how you were after a couple of years training or not? Or is it that you just aren't gaining at the same rate? Or something else?
> 
> ...


 It's not that I'm not gaining at the same rate, I've lost size and muscle that I'm unable to get back no matter how hard I train or how clean I eat.

To give you an idea, I weighed around 95kg and was relatively lean 10 years ago. My clothes were tight and I looked and felt bigger than I do now. I was happy with my look back then. And I knew nothing about training or diet, yet looked my best. I weigh around 89kg now, similar bf but I constantly feel flat as f*ck, my arms are thin, shoulders are small etc. and my diet has never been better and I train harder than back then too.

6kg might not sound like a hell of a lot, but it feels like a world of difference to me.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Are the weights you lift now significantly lighter?


----------



## Wallis (Apr 11, 2016)

UK2USA said:


> I'm the poster boy for test. I have a 29 year old wife, two daughters, 4 and 2, I work out 4 times a week, have energy and keep busy. I'm 63 years old dude.
> 
> Before test, I would watch TV for five minutes and then the TV was watching me. I'd be fast asleep.
> 
> No dark side bro.


 Awesome :thumb


----------



## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> Are the weights you lift now significantly lighter?


 Way heavier than back then.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MFM said:


> Way heavier than back then.


 In that case I have to be honest and say that I'm really struggling to believe your muscles are smaller. If they aren't then losing some body fat should get you back to where you truly were before. Remember that lowering body fat makes people look bigger.

I also wonder if as someone else has suggested their may be an issue here to do with expectations and remembering what you really looked like before.

I hope I'm not sounding rude here, I'm just giving my honest opinion based on what you've said.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I'm assuming when you say you're lifting heavier weights now you mean with a similar type of training? As in you've not switched from a more size orientated approach to lots of low rep powerlifting?


----------



## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Put the previous peak pic and current picture. I guess you are worried for no reason.


----------



## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

MFM said:


> If I did decide to start using steroids, I'd probably only do low doses, ie 250mg per week.


 That's what they all say.. 

I have to agree with test; look at this way, some men get it prescribed and others self prescribe. If it makes you feel better, a quick trip to the GP for TRT, you'll most probably see the difference it makes and then it's all downhill from there. :thumb


----------



## Yes (May 4, 2014)

Kristina said:


> That's what they all say..
> 
> I have to agree with test; look at this way, some men get it prescribed and others self prescribe. If it makes you feel better, a quick trip to the GP for TRT, you'll most probably see the difference it makes and then it's all downhill from there. :thumb


 Doctors in the UK are absolutely terrible at treating low t though.


----------



## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Yes said:


> Doctors in the UK are absolutely terrible at treating low t though.


 Noway? In what sense? Even if you complain with all the right symptoms?


----------



## Yes (May 4, 2014)

Kristina said:


> Noway? In what sense? Even if you complain with all the right symptoms?


 Yes.

Men's hormone problems are consistently under treated.

I had testosterone levels equivalent to someone in their eighties, however, since I was technically 'in range' doctors didn't want to know. Despite the fact that I was 20 at the time. Most people on this forum have been fobbed off at least once over getting TRT prescribed.


----------



## MFM (Jul 25, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> In that case I have to be honest and say that I'm really struggling to believe your muscles are smaller. If they aren't then losing some body fat should get you back to where you truly were before. Remember that lowering body fat makes people look bigger.
> 
> I also wonder if as someone else has suggested their may be an issue here to do with expectations and remembering what you really looked like before.
> 
> I hope I'm not sounding rude here, I'm just giving my honest opinion based on what you've said.


 You're not rude at all, and I appreciate the suggestions/comments. But I know my body. I am most definitely noticeably smaller/slimmer than I was back then. My arms probably the biggest culprit.

When you start training you don't push nearly as hard as you're really capable. I didn't at least. The weights were pretty light, yet I made consistent gains. I went from around 80kg to 90-95kg in the first two years.

Anyway, it doesn't seem there is any other alternative than going assisted as I've been trying to break through this plateau for the last 3 years without any success.


----------



## HakMat75 (Dec 5, 2015)

MFM said:


> See I don't think my test is low at all. Going by what people say, if you have low test you generally have no libido, feel down etc. I have none of that, plus there's nothing wrong with my balls. Maybe I do have low test but just don't have any of the side effects.
> 
> One thing is certain though, I'm not building muscle like I did 10 years ago.
> 
> If I did decide to start using steroids, I'd probably only do low doses, ie 250mg per week. I'm sure it will be enough to start making gains plus there should be minimal side effects, if any at all. Would you still need to do pct on such a low dose?


 I wouldn't rely on libido as the be and end all marker for low test mate. I was still happily shagging away all last year yet I was run down, lethargic, napping 2-3 times a day, getting fatter & depressed etc , so every time I went docs first question was about libido so he'd discount low test, until I went private and paid for the male health check tests myself and bingo, test level was 9.2, down from 18 measured 8 years earlier.

(People can argue the toss but I'm a believer that most sex issues are psychological, and I'm a bit of a cold hearted ****er so I can shag women I don't even like and sometimes actually hate, like ex wives. It also means I stay with them far longer than I should do I lose eventually)

Im 40, and started AAS in December, and ive literally had time of my life last 5 months with women, sex, friendships and training. Dark side? What dark side !


----------



## cypssk (Jun 29, 2008)

Read up about symptoms of low testosterone then go to your gp tell him how you feel strong it a bit get him give you a blòod test then at least you're know if you have low testosterone


----------



## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Yes said:


> Yes.
> 
> Men's hormone problems are consistently under treated.
> 
> I had testosterone levels equivalent to someone in their eighties, however, since I was technically 'in range' doctors didn't want to know. Deposited the fact that I was 20 at the time. Most people on this forum have been fobbed off at least once over getting TRT prescribed.


 Damn, although I guess it comes to no surprise. That's crappy.


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Yes said:


> Yes.
> 
> Men's hormone problems are consistently under treated.
> 
> I had testosterone levels equivalent to someone in their eighties, however, since I was technically 'in range' doctors didn't want to know. Deposited the fact that I was 20 at the time. Most people on this forum have been fobbed off at least once over getting TRT prescribed.


 You had low(ish) test though... that doesn't mean you medically required treatment. Some people have low test, some have high, just the way it is... if you're in range then you're in range.


----------



## Yes (May 4, 2014)

2004mark said:


> You had low(ish) test though... that doesn't mean you medically required treatment. Some people have low test, some have high, just the way it is... if you're in range then you're in range.


 No.

How can it make sense that they include ranges for extremely old people when testing young people for their testosterone levels?

Some people have low testosterone because there is something wrong with them. Having test levels of an eighty year old and 20 is bad.

If they extended the ranges even further to include test levels that are non existent, would that be okay too? Since 100 year old men would have non existent levels?


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

Yes said:


> No.
> 
> How can it make sense that they include ranges for extremely old people when testing young people for their testosterone levels?
> 
> ...


 You're misunderstanding the range value... if you're in range you're in range, it's as simple as that. While there will be an average value that declines over age it doesn't mean that it's 'unhealthy' to be below that average providing you are still in range.

I'm not saying that being towards the lower end of the spectrum wouldn't warrant more investigation if it is accompanied by symptoms. But just havering a test level of say 12 nmol/L at the age of 20 doesn't mean you 100% need TRT

I think you'd find most men in their 80s would be below range. I think you'd also find that a good percentage of the male population between 20-25 would have a test level between 8-15 nmol/L. This doesn't mean they all require TRT... a few might, but not most.


----------



## TIDALWAVE (Aug 30, 2015)

Yes said:


> Yes.
> 
> Men's hormone problems are consistently under treated.
> 
> I had testosterone levels equivalent to someone in their eighties, however, since I was technically 'in range' doctors didn't want to know. Despite the fact that I was 20 at the time. Most people on this forum have been fobbed off at least once over getting TRT prescribed.


 HOW DO YOU KNOW IF YOU ARE LOW?


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

TIDALWAVE said:


> HOW DO YOU KNOW IF YOU ARE LOW?


 I've heard that unnecessary shouting is one common symptom...


----------



## barksie (Nov 23, 2014)

MFM said:


> I'm sure mine has. Been training 12 years natty and I'm in worse shape now than I was 2 years after I started training. Back then I was nice and chunky, relatively lean and had people commenting on my size/arms etc. As the years went on, and my diet got cleaner and training heavier, I seem to have gone backwards in my physique. Bizarre.
> 
> I find it a lot harder now to stay lean so I can't really bulk as it just makes me fat. Cutting isn't really an option as I feel skinny fat as it is. Nowhere to go but spin my wheels. Lol


 im 58 m8 and i canna shift that stubborn belly fat, i lost 3 stone in 2014 and still canna shift the last bit, ive now gone and made it worse by having 2 steaks a day with 4 fried eggs for four weeks, thinking it would make me bulk with muscle , although it was luvverly, i have now got fatter, so that was a big mistake


----------



## TIDALWAVE (Aug 30, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I've heard that unnecessary shouting is one common symptom...


 how do you know if you have low test?

That better for your ears?


----------



## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

TIDALWAVE said:


> how do you know if you have low test?
> 
> That better for your ears?


 You need to get a blood sample done. Either at the GP or you can get it done by medichecks discreetly for £99. They will give you a full lipid profile and everything that comes with it also.


----------

