# Would you want your baby aborted if you were told it would have downsyndrome?



## Freeby0 (Oct 5, 2012)

I always wonderd what id do if it happend to me, what would you do?


----------



## jon-kent (May 20, 2011)

Weird thread for 2:40am mate lol, something keeping you awake and in a reflective mood ? Lol


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

haha fook me, are you on mushrooms..only people who do that are [email protected] and shouldn't be allowed children...ive a sister who has downs, never felt any shame etc


----------



## fitrut (Nov 20, 2007)

barsnack said:


> haha fook me, are you on mushrooms..only people who do that are [email protected] and shouldn't be allowed children...ive a sister who has downs, never felt any shame etc


this has nothing to do with shame, pregnant women have tests to check the possibility of the syndrome, its up to them what they do when they get ''bad'' results


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

fitrut said:


> this has nothing to do with shame, pregnant women have tests to check the possibility of the syndrome, its up to them what they do when they get ''bad'' results


why else would they abort it then, obviously shame and the fact their a ****...if they could test for other disabilities, should they also get the option of an abortion, i find it disgusitign to be honest


----------



## fitrut (Nov 20, 2007)

barsnack said:


> why else would they abort it then, obviously shame and the fact their a ****...if they could test for other disabilities, should they also get the option of an abortion, i find it disgusitign to be honest


you dont know other people circumstances and reasons for this, too quick to judge. majority of babies are born with down syndrome have heart defects that is often the case with trisomy 21 and them defects can be severe enough that they would kill the baby while still in infancy, some of them don't even reach the birth and die during the pregnancy so this is a risk for women as well. I personally wouldn't do it, but as I said you dont know why they decide to terminate and at the end of the day who are we to judge others


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

fitrut said:


> you dont know other people circumstances and reasons for this, too quick to judge. majority of babies are born with down syndrome have heart defects that is often the case with trisomy 21 and them defects can be severe enough that they would kill the baby while still in infancy, some of them don't even reach the birth and die during the pregnancy so this is a risk for women as well. I personally wouldn't do it, but as I said you dont know why they decide to terminate and at the end of the day who are we to judge others


true, but think its around 80-90% of unborn babies that test postive for dwns are aborted if not higher, and i would bet its down to parents not wanting to care for a child that isnt 'perfect'...and yeah heart defects is very common as well as other problems, but whether an unborn child will be born with a high risk of heart disease etc is irrelvant, if a couple make a baby, then that baby should be given a right to life...unless the mother is at risk during the pregnancy then thats up to the mother, i think otherwise its irresponsible


----------



## dean scott 1987 (Dec 16, 2012)

everybody deserves to chance to live, i dnt have children but if i did and i found it was going to have down syndrome then i would personally want to keep it, it would be my child my blood my genes, i know it would be hard but it would worth it.


----------



## mattiasl (Jan 13, 2009)

NO!

I work with disabled children and they are lovely.

My wife is pregnant now and we said we were going to keep it no matter what.


----------



## hometrainer (Apr 9, 2003)

i coudnt do it i have five kids love them all to bits and would not be without any of them


----------



## broch316 (Dec 24, 2011)

every child should have the right to live. down syndrome is just a word . thw world would be pretty boring if we were all the same..


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

i would abort without hesitation


----------



## broch316 (Dec 24, 2011)

romper stomper said:


> i would abort without hesitation


why?


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

I do not want a downsyndrome baby thats why


----------



## ws0158 (Jun 23, 2010)

me and my misses was told its a very very high chance our baby would be downsyndrome, they said we could have a test to confirm but we chose not to have the test and keep him anyway!!

hes 2 now and theres nothing wrong with him and hes actually really clever for his age

to think that we could of aborted him is sickening


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> me and my misses was told its a very very high chance our baby would be downsyndrome,


what reasons did the doctor give ??


----------



## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Not guna be pc about it, yes i would want my child aborted


----------



## broch316 (Dec 24, 2011)

Breda said:


> Not guna be pc about it, yes i would want my child aborted


why?


----------



## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

I've got a daughter who is severely disabled. If we were offered the chance to abort I have a horrible suspicion i may have taken it. Thank god we weren't. I'm not going to pretend it's not difficult having a disabled child, but she along with my other kids, is the light of my life. Thank god we didn't know. I understand people's fear and I understand them making that decision, but it think it's a mistake.


----------



## Breda (May 2, 2011)

broch316 said:


> why?


This



romper stomper said:


> I do not want a downsyndrome baby thats why


----------



## broch316 (Dec 24, 2011)

pretty small minded answer from the both of you.....


----------



## Lift (May 27, 2008)

I'm interested. How many of you, who think this is 'wrong' are pro-life and disagree with abortion, full stop?

If knowing your child would have down-syndrome, is not enough of a reason for a abortion, then if at all, what is?


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

The only way l would have a baby aborted was if l thought there quality of life would be non existent.

Rghtly or wrongly l think to see them able to do nothing for themselves is unfair on them and they just exist, they dont live.


----------



## The Cheese (Sep 22, 2012)

broch316 said:


> pretty small minded answer from the both of you.....


Do you have kids?


----------



## broch316 (Dec 24, 2011)

Lift said:


> I'm interested. How many of you, who think this is 'wrong' are pro-life and disagree with abortion, full stop?
> 
> If knowing your child would have down-syndrome, is not enough of a reason for a abortion, then if at all, what is?


i dont have an opinion either way about abortion. i just think having one because your child has down syndrome is wrong. as i think people make this decision more about themselves rather than the child. kids with disabiltys can live long happy lives.


----------



## broch316 (Dec 24, 2011)

The Cheese said:


> Do you have kids?


yes


----------



## The Cheese (Sep 22, 2012)

Then how can you judge others for being small-minded?

It shows ignorance and arrogance.

I have 3 kids but I wouldn't hesitate to abort. Simply because I believe that I couldn't give the child the quality of life that it deserves. And as abortion takes place before 16 weeks, it's classed as legal and morally ethical.

Your not having an opinion on abortion either way is contradictory. Why is it not small-minded to abort healthy foetuses? Do you have something against healthy children?


----------



## broch316 (Dec 24, 2011)

not having an opinion means just that . its the easy way out to avoid stigma imo . have a disability is not an excuse to get rid of a child its an easy way out. this is my last comment on this subject as i dont want to start arguing with people..


----------



## Lift (May 27, 2008)

Calling someone 'small minded' for choosing within their rights and then saying you have no opinion, regarding the central issue and then saying you don't wish to argue is one way, then the other!


----------



## ws0158 (Jun 23, 2010)

romper stomper said:


> what reasons did the doctor give ??


its the test they do, didnt give a reason as to why, just give us the possibilty figure!

i would take an enormous strain on life looking after a downs though, if you couldnt give them 100% and they could be neglected it would make sense to have second thoughts upon an abortion, im not judgmental and could see peoples reasons as to why they couldnt cope/care for a downs baby


----------



## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

Yes I would.


----------



## Huntingground (Jan 10, 2010)

I would let the decision be led by the missus, she would be looking after the child whilst I'm in work etc but she has indicated that she would abort. Luckily, we didn't have to make that choice.


----------



## liam0810 (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm not sure to be honest. I think if I know I can care for the baby then I would keep it. But I don't know if I am mentally strong enough to cope with having a disabled child. It also depends on what quality of life the child will have. Not necessarily Downs, but if I was told here was a high risk my child would be in pain every day of its life then I don't think I could put it through that.


----------



## F.M.J (Mar 23, 2009)

If the child was at risk of living a non-functional life, then I would like an abortion, however, my wife is a practicing catholic and obviously disagrees completely with abortion.

I wonder how many people these days still drink while pregnant. I watched a sickening video where teenage girls and early 20s girls were pregnant and thought it was 'selfish' of the baby to stop them drinking. The "I'm not giving up my lifestyle for it" attitude.

Did you know, 1 binge drink during pregnancy can cause all sorts of problems for a developing baby? Including organ damage, brain damage, behavioral problems while growing up (ADHD), even facial disfigurement.

It's unlikely for 1 binge drink but still possible. I know this is off topic but I thought it was an interesting thing to learn about, a scary fact is, most women don't know about the attributed problems of drinking alcohol while pregnant and even if they do will still have the odd 'tipple'.

^^ this, I feel is a lot more irresponsible than having an abortion.


----------



## TELBOR (Feb 20, 2012)

I got told my first daughter was hight risk for downs according to the blood results etc.

Offered counselling and a life threatening procedure - for my unborn child to determine a accurate result.

Declined them and plodded on.

She came out FINE! Brightest kid in her class too


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Its easy to take a high moral standing about this kind of situation but unless you have been in the situation u dont know what u would fcuking do, let me tell u that for a fact. I have a cousin who is down-syndrome and she cant talk like some people with downs and her mother is basically changing nappies for 30, 40 maybe 50 years!

We had an abortion after having that test because we found out our baby was going to have spina bifida and we made this decision, it wasnt fcuking easy but i am certain we made the right decision, if u think that makes me a bad person, then whatever, but i guarantee unless u have been there or really actually no anything about it then you have no fcuking clue what its like to even face the fact that your son or daughter might be disabled.


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

@Fatstuff.

I would imagine you went thro hell mate and l would also imagine you still think about it all the time.

I certainly wont judge you mate.


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Milky said:


> @Fatstuff.
> 
> I would imagine you went thro hell mate and l would also imagine you still think about it all the time.
> 
> I certainly wont judge you mate.


It was m8.


----------



## WillOdling (Aug 27, 2009)

Haven't got kids and never want them but if I found out it was to be a downs I'd abort without hesitation.

I've seen elderly parents looking after their middle aged downs kids like they were still toddlers. Just seems a life sentence and a sh1t quality of life for both.

That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it


----------



## Southern Karate Guy (Feb 27, 2014)

I would be more worried who would look after my child after im gone ....


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> We had an abortion after having that test because we found out our baby was going to have spina bifida and we made this decision, it wasnt fcuking easy but i am certain we made the right decision


yes you did !!


----------



## Dirk McQuickly (Dec 29, 2010)

Fatstuff said:


> Its easy to take a high moral standing about this kind of situation but unless you have been in the situation u dont know what u would fcuking do, let me tell u that for a fact. I have a cousin who is down-syndrome and she cant talk like some people with downs and her mother is basically changing nappies for 30, 40 maybe 50 years!
> 
> We had an abortion after having that test because we found out our baby was going to have spina bifida and we made this decision, it wasnt fcuking easy but i am certain we made the right decision, if u think that makes me a bad person, then whatever, but i guarantee unless u have been there or really actually no anything about it then you have no fcuking clue what its like to even face the fact that your son or daughter might be disabled.


As i said earlier, I've got a disabled daughter, but I don't think you're a bad person for doing what you did. It's an unbelievably awful situation to be put in.


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

chilli said:


> As i said earlier, I've got a disabled daughter, but I don't think you're a bad person for doing what you did. It's an unbelievably awful situation to be put in.


I know m8, u are probably one of the only ones who could actually take the superior moral standing but chose not to. Speaks volumes m8


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

I see some of the worst deformities, mental and physical possible in an orphanage of dumped twisted juvenile human wreckedge - many too deformed to do anything - do not see do not hear, fed though a tube - a child deserves a life and a child also deserves a death when their lives are in constant pain and suffering and will never ever amount to anything ever - There is too much suffering in the world with normal able bodied people - if you can stop some of the pain from happening and stop deformed babies from being born all good in my book.

Must sound awfully cold to people who do have special needs children who are the light of their lives and love them to bits.

But I go every week and lend a hand - can not feel sorry for them -sympathy does no good - some can move about and a few a very very small % may lead a semi normal life in specially adapted monitored housing - many die early because of organ failure - there is a sweet smell along side the smell of dried **** and I put that down to the smell of death- never far away- one cot empties and is soon filled with another wretch of a life. If they make adulthood through the system they get the adult care which mixed in all the drug addicts who have gone loopy on heroin - they inject the deformed kids with it and kill them off .

I said to the kid that first took me there - I would love to find the swimming pool here - if I could play the grim reaper - I would play it with abandon- and empty half the orphanage in one swimming session.


----------



## guvnor82 (Oct 23, 2011)

Talked about this with misses before and we both said we would abort.

I'd always worry what's gonna happen to the kid once we die.


----------



## Ian_Montrose (Nov 13, 2007)

We refused the tests for all of my kids because we didn't want to potentially find ourselves having to make what must be one of the most difficult decisions in life. I believe that if the tests had been mandated and turned out positive, abortion would have been out of the question for both of us anyway. That was our choice though and no parent should be judged by others for the decision they make in this situation.


----------



## LuLuJJ (Jan 15, 2012)

Never


----------



## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

I'd like to think that I wouldn't, but like @Huntingground I would leave the ultimate decision up to my missus as she would be the one at home bringing the child up.


----------



## Cythraul (Oct 5, 2011)

Just because you don't want to take care of it doesn't mean you can destroy its one chance at life.

Just saying


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

romper stomper said:


> I see some of the worst deformities, mental and physical possible in an orphanage of dumped twisted juvenile human wreckedge - many too deformed to do anything - do not see do not hear, fed though a tube - a child deserves a life and a child also deserves a death when their lives are in constant pain and suffering and will never ever amount to anything ever - There is too much suffering in the world with normal able bodied people - if you can stop some of the pain from happening and stop deformed babies from being born all good in my book.
> 
> Must sound awfully cold to people who do have special needs children who are the light of their lives and love them to bits.
> 
> ...


As much as l see your stance do you honestly feel you could end a childs life ?

Even if it was for there own " good ". I know l couldnt, not a chance.


----------



## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

Is downsyndrome genetic, eg, would a couple with downsyndrome have kids with downs?

Also what if one of the two parents had downs?


----------



## frenchpress (Nov 22, 2012)

Yeah would abort if it looked like it had downs or was likely to be properly disabled. Wouldn't have a kid if it was going to have a quality of life that I wouldn't be happy with for myself.


----------



## Dazza (Aug 7, 2010)

Personally i would weigh up the pro's/cons and try to make an informed choice with the information at hand.

If it would affect quality of life, then i would.

Either way it's a tough choice.

One small gripe, since when did we all become the moral arbiter of society. It's the parents choice regardless of anyone's opinion, a choice i feel that should never be taken away.


----------



## Mish (May 1, 2011)

We don't have any kids yet but it's something me and Mrs Mish have discussed before and we decided we would terminate. Our decision was not based on shame and stigma but more the diminished quality of life for us. If you know your child may have Down's syndrome you do not know to what degree. Yes some live a normal independent life whereas others need round the clock care.


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> As much as l see your stance do you honestly feel you could end a childs life ?
> 
> Even if it was for there own " good ". I know l couldn't, not a chance.


These kids have opened my eyes to allot - after seeing what i have seen i have learnt a few things - there is no god - (unless you believe in a religion with reincarnation involved - and children suffering for the sins of their parents- that is) and that i could kill to cure - if i could take lives with little discomfort and with no prosecution - i would - without hesitation take the lives of children.

e mail to friend

"Suffer little children" - my bible inscription - and by god do they suffer-behind orphanage walls- twisted limbs, tortured lives, the helpless innocents, incapable of sin-punished to a degree no scale can measure, for reasons unknown. If they survive, a life in care, through the system as they grow- knowing no other - a living Slice of hell on earth. As adults - transferred to their possible salvation, freedom at the end of an addict's needle ??. Helping hands carry from the bed -mats outside-fresh air, sunshine, toys the eventual- smiles- laughter even a scream- a glimpse of normality and happiness installed???


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

romper stomper said:


> These kids have opened my eyes to allot - after seeing what i have seen i have learnt a few things - there is no god - (unless you believe in a religion with reincarnation involved - and children suffering for the sins of their parents- that is) and that i could kill to cure - if i could take lives with little discomfort and with no prosecution - i would - without hesitation take the lives of children.
> 
> e mail to friend
> 
> "Suffer little children" - my bible inscription - and by god do they suffer-behind orphanage walls- twisted limbs, tortured lives, the helpless innocents, incapable of sin-punished to a degree no scale can measure, for reasons unknown. If they survive, a life in care, through the system as they grow- knowing no other - a living Slice of hell on earth. As adults - transferred to their possible salvation, freedom at the end of an addict's needle ??. Helping hands carry from the bed -mats outside-fresh air, sunshine, toys the eventual- smiles- laughter even a scream- a glimpse of normality and happiness installed???


Fair play then mate and reading this l can only imagine what you must have seen to have to come to this conclusion.

You are a brave man going back on a weekly basis, l couldnt do it, it would send me into a pit of despair seeing that level of suffering.


----------



## PLauGE (Oct 17, 2010)

was told my little girl possibly had cystic phybrosis (sp) and was given the option of abortion, was a no brainer, turns out shes absolute fine

grown up around young adults with downs when i was growing up, ive not met a single one that i have a bad word to say about,


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> You are a brave man going back on a weekly basis, l couldnt do it, it would send me into a pit of despair seeing that level of suffering.


It actually drags you out of any despair - i and you think and many more think we have problems ?? **** these kids have taught me a very new perspective on that - and on suffering - as i have had a revulsion / repulsion - phobia if you will, regarding any deformities mental or physical for my whole life - on tv -tv turned over - any in the street opposite side of the road- The reason i go back is because i got over a life long phobia in one visit - not revised or repulsed - as i nearly puked three times the first time i went- many who go have to leave - but it was so repulsive to me i had to stay !.

Said to the guy that took me - i have thought and see absolutely no justifiable reason why i am doing this - there is just no end game- He turned , smiled and said - "No justifiable reason for doing this ?? may be that is the only reason you need" !!!


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

romper stomper said:


> It actually drags you out of any despair - i and you think and many more think we have problems ?? **** these kids have taught me a very new perspective on that - and on suffering - as i have had a revulsion / repulsion - phobia if you will, regarding any deformities mental or physical for my whole life - on tv -tv turned over - any in the street opposite side of the road- The reason i go back is because i got over a life long phobia in one visit - not revised or repulsed - as i nearly puked three times the first time i went- many who go have to leave - but it was so repulsive to me i had to stay !.
> 
> Said to the guy that took me - i have thought and see absolutely no justifiable reason why i am doing this - there is just no end game- He turned , smiled and said - "No justifiable reason for doing this ?? may be that is the only reason you need" !!!


what exactly is it that u do and do u go? what kind of deformities etc? if u dont mind me asking.


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

I go to an orphanage when in saigon, for severely mentally and physically disabled children - up to around 16 years - its ran by nuns and a church concern - you help around - help the nurses feed, take the kids that can be moved outside - we put out mats and roll them around as that is the only free movement they really not enough nurses to do that - so if they get out of their cots for an hour its in a chair - other than physio- and the screams from that Ooooochhhh


----------



## RocoElBurn (May 31, 2010)

My son was born earlier this year, and although all is well, we decided long before that we wouldn't change our minds on keeping our child no matter what those results showed.


----------



## Shady45 (Jan 5, 2010)

I was expecting something that would mean the kid had severe disability and basically can't do anything.

Down syndrome doesn't prevent a good quality of life. A local guy by me 'works' in the sports centre (he doesn't get paid but he likes to be there), the majority are decent with him (even the local idiots who make 'normal' kids suffer), and he's competed in the paralympics for badminton. Doesn't sound too bad tbh.


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Shady45 said:


> I was expecting something that would mean the kid had severe disability and basically can't do anything.
> 
> Down syndrome doesn't prevent a good quality of life. A local guy by me 'works' in the sports centre (he doesn't get paid but he likes to be there), the majority are decent with him (even the local idiots who make 'normal' kids suffer), and he's competed in the paralympics for badminton. Doesn't sound too bad tbh.


Theres different severities though, as i said my cousin has got it and she is around late 30's, cant speak and is in a nappy. I dont fancy her quality of life much


----------



## TG123 (Apr 10, 2012)

It makes me laugh people who are saying it's bad to abort a child because it may have downsyndrome or a severe disability

so aborting a baby who has a severe disibility or downsyndrome is wrong but the tens of thousands of people who have abortions everyday because they're just not ready/getting pregnant was a accident or both them and their partner are working so it's not convienient is fine whereas doing it for a proper medical reason is wrong? lol ok


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

TG123 said:


> It makes me laugh people who are saying it's bad to abort a child because it may have downsyndrome or a severe disability
> 
> so aborting a baby who has a severe disibility or downsyndrome is wrong but the tens of thousands of people who have abortions everyday because they're just not ready/getting pregnant was a accident or both them and their partner are working so it's not convienient is fine whereas doing it for a proper medical reason is wrong? lol ok


I think the whole abortion row is totally different mate.

Myself, really not sure how l feel about abortions as a whole.


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> we wouldn't change our minds on keeping our child no matter what those results showed.


i hope you saw worse case scenarios before you made that derision


----------



## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

id probably abort, nothing wrong in wanting normal ability healthy children.


----------



## stone14 (Mar 24, 2005)

its not wrong to abort imo, a child will change your life from its birth, nothing wrong with choosing as its your life as much as theres.


----------



## TryingToGetBig (May 20, 2010)

I would get it aborted.

Why?

Because of my job I can be away for 6 months at a time, so I think the quality of life of that child, my wife, and my two kids would suffer. So I feel it would be the best thing to do at this time of our lives.

However in the future the answer may be different, depending on the situation at that time.


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

romper stomper said:


> I go to an orphanage when in saigon, for severely mentally and physically disabled children - up to around 16 years - its ran by nuns and a church concern - you help around - help the nurses feed, take the kids that can be moved outside - we put out mats and roll them around as that is the only free movement they really not enough nurses to do that - so if they get out of their cots for an hour its in a chair - other than physio- and the screams from that Ooooochhhh


fcuking hell, fair play to u for that though


----------



## Shady45 (Jan 5, 2010)

Fatstuff said:


> Theres different severities though, as i said my cousin has got it and she is around late 30's, cant speak and is in a nappy. I dont fancy her quality of life much


Of course. I didn't word my post well as I'm on my phone, but I meant down syndrome doesn't instantly mean no quality of life, without taking in to consideration its severity.

There is a differing severity of pretty much everything, one high extreme can be completely different to the other low extreme. I personally don't think that's enough to think a kid should be aborted, at least not with down syndrome.

Of course I don't know your cousin so can't comment on their quality of life. However, I don't think them particular symptoms automatically mean they can't have one.

Quality of life definitely varies amongst people. Being in contact with some people on the autism spectrum, from my view I can't see how they are happy and if my life suddenly turned like that I don't think I'd cope, yet talking to them they appear very happy, or at least as happy as anyone else.


----------



## Shady45 (Jan 5, 2010)

TG123 said:


> It makes me laugh people who are saying it's bad to abort a child because it may have downsyndrome or a severe disability
> 
> so aborting a baby who has a severe disibility or downsyndrome is wrong but the tens of thousands of people who have abortions everyday because they're just not ready/getting pregnant was a accident or both them and their partner are working so it's not convienient is fine whereas doing it for a proper medical reason is wrong? lol ok





Milky said:


> I think the whole abortion row is totally different mate.
> 
> Myself, really not sure how l feel about abortions as a whole.


What milky said. I think it's two different arguments. I took this thread as in people were planning for a child or at least were happy to have a child.


----------



## MF88 (Jul 1, 2012)

I always used to say I would abort it, but now I've got kids it's changed my view on it. They're my world and I'll die for them no matter what condition etc they had.


----------



## fitrut (Nov 20, 2007)

onthebuild said:


> Is downsyndrome genetic, eg, would a couple with downsyndrome have kids with downs?
> 
> Also what if one of the two parents had downs?


males with down sydrome usually can't have kids and females have very low fertility rates and if they get pregnant anyway most likely will have miscarriage, premature birth, difficult labour. about 50% chance kids of one of the parents with down sydrome also will have it


----------



## Breda (May 2, 2011)

Shady45 said:


> Of course. I didn't word my post well as I'm on my phone, but I meant down syndrome doesn't instantly mean no quality of life, without taking in to consideration its severity.
> 
> There is a differing severity of pretty much everything, one high extreme can be completely different to the other low extreme. I personally don't think that's enough to think a kid should be aborted, at least not with down syndrome.
> 
> ...


Not sure how old you are mate and not to be a pr**k but i'm nearly 30 and if i couldn't talk and was ****ting myself, needed someone to change my nappy at this age i wouldn't consider that a good quality of life


----------



## Shady45 (Jan 5, 2010)

Breda said:


> Not sure how old you are mate and not to be a pr**k but i'm nearly 30 and if i couldn't talk and was ****ting myself, needed someone to change my nappy at this age i wouldn't consider that a good quality of life


I'm 21 and if I was doing the same I wouldn't call it a good quality of life. Yet we (I'm assuming you to  ) have an iq in the normal range, have normal social interaction and have not grown up with it.

They make a big difference imo. I'm also surprised as to how well people can adapt after accidents etc.

People with disabilities (unless very extreme) can end their life as well. If they all considered themselves to have no quality of life then I think the suicide rates of these people would be a lot more significant.

I'm sure someone has done studies on this, which may go with or against me. I can't be bothered to look at this moment though lol


----------



## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

fitrut said:


> males with down sydrome usually can't have kids and females have very low fertility rates and if they get pregnant anyway most likely will have miscarriage, premature birth, difficult labour. about 50% chance kids of one of the parents with down sydrome also will have it


Thanks for the answer.

Then I would have to say yes, I would abort.

The low fertility rates alone reduce the quality of life for the person to such a degree that i'd have to think about it, our instincts to reproduce are huge afterall.

Coupled with the fact theres a 50% chance of passing it on, and unfortunately a huge chance, if not 100% chance of the child suffering at the hands of discrimination and bullying. I couldnt allow myself to knowingly subject a child to that.

Of course if I had no choice in the matter I'd do my best, which is all anyone could ask of me, but if I had a chance to prevent it I'd take it. The reason being I would not enjoy a life like that, and wouldnt want to put it on another person.


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

romper stomper said:


> I see some of the worst deformities, mental and physical possible in an orphanage of dumped twisted juvenile human wreckedge - many too deformed to do anything - do not see do not hear, fed though a tube - a child deserves a life and a child also deserves a death when their lives are in constant pain and suffering and will never ever amount to anything ever - There is too much suffering in the world with normal able bodied people - if you can stop some of the pain from happening and stop deformed babies from being born all good in my book.
> 
> Must sound awfully cold to people who do have special needs children who are the light of their lives and love them to bits.
> 
> ...


can get that, but were talking about down syndrome not the very severly disabled kids yuor banging on about which is diffferent, as milky said earlier if the kid had no chancce of a quality of life then yeah can understand aborting then (couldnt do it myself cause of my beliefs but not everyone has mine)..but downs babies can have a good quality of life, my sister has learning difficulties, very temperamental and has a very poor speech...but her quality of lifes is good, went to the special olympics in ireland few years ago and the craic all the kids were having from different disabilities was amazing to watch...you seem very black and white in your thinking, but if your not prepared to look after a disabled kid then kids better off aborted


----------



## Kaiz (Nov 3, 2012)

If it was me I would defo want to to keep that child.. I see all babies (children) as a BLESSING, wether there able or disabled


----------



## ws0158 (Jun 23, 2010)

also my mother was told that my brother is 100% downs!! my mum and dad decided to keep him and when he was born he was 100% normal, that was 20 years ago boy was they wrong, she very nearly aborted as already having my and my sister, we were 3-4 at the time


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

barsnack said:


> can get that, but were talking about down syndrome not the very severly disabled kids yuor banging on about which is diffferent, as milky said earlier if the kid had no chancce of a quality of life then yeah can understand aborting then (couldnt do it myself cause of my beliefs but not everyone has mine)..but downs babies can have a good quality of life, my sister has learning difficulties, very temperamental and has a very poor speech...but her quality of lifes is good, went to the special olympics in ireland few years ago and the craic all the kids were having from different disabilities was amazing to watch...you seem very black and white in your thinking, but if your not prepared to look after a disabled kid then kids better off aborted


Again.... There's different severities of downs.


----------



## DazUKM (Nov 22, 2012)

nah man i dont think id want to, but if my misses wanted too i wouldnt stop her.

id only be up for abortion if it was going to put the womens life in danger when having the baby, or maybe if the baby wasnt going to live


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Fatstuff said:


> Again.... There's different severities of downs.


hence what i said in my comment, but i bet alot of people make a snap judgment when they hear 'down syndrome' and want the baby aborted instead of researching it, anyway each to there own


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

romper stomper said:


> I go to an orphanage when in saigon, for severely mentally and physically disabled children - up to around 16 years - its ran by nuns and a church concern - you help around - help the nurses feed, take the kids that can be moved outside - we put out mats and roll them around as that is the only free movement they really not enough nurses to do that - so if they get out of their cots for an hour its in a chair - other than physio- and the screams from that Ooooochhhh


Hang on a minute. Have I missed something or is this a different romper stomper than the one that was on the forum a while back?


----------



## nowhereboy (May 22, 2012)

Well I used to be a support worker and this is going to sound cruel as f*ck, but it's my opinion.

Sometimes abortion might be the right thing to do, depending on the severity of the disability/downs.

Some of the people I worked with had ZERO quality of life, most of them lived in full time care homes because the parents couldn't cope anymore. These people required constant care, costing a lot of money and they looked in constant emotional pain. Of course it raised questions in my mind about this subject.


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

Milky said:


> *As much as l see your stance do you honestly feel you could end a childs life ?*
> 
> Even if it was for there own " good ". I know l couldnt, not a chance.


I think this is what separates people in this debate. Personally I don't instantly think of a foetus as a child until the later stages of pregnancy. I hear people saying now, and I think that some have mentioned it on here, things like "I could never imagine having me child aborted, because she's brilliant". And I think the same about my little girl, but the fact is that you have no idea what that foetus is going to grow into so I don't think it's really a valid argument. As said I think it all comes down to at what stage do you class it as a child. Personally I don't see a problem with abortion at all. The "child" isn't developed enough to understand or think so it hasn't started to live yet, if that makes sense. Maybe I have these views because I was in Afghan for the duration of my wife's pregnancy I don't know but I'm pretty sure I'd be pro abortion if my child to be had a disability.


----------



## lukeee (Aug 17, 2009)

WillOdling said:


> Haven't got kids and never want them but if I found out it was to be a downs I'd abort without hesitation.
> 
> I've seen elderly parents looking after their middle aged downs kids like they were still toddlers. Just seems a life sentence and a sh1t quality of life for both.
> 
> That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it


I agree


----------



## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

To be completely honest, I always said if I ever got pregnant (whether said child was disabled or not) I'd abort, but then I don't want children. Having said that, unless I was in the situation, I don't actually know what I would do.

A couple who are very good friends of mine have a 2 year old with Downs. She found out when she was pregnant, and although she and her husband aren't against abortion in any way, and had the option, they decided to keep her. They did plenty of research and she admits it's been hard - their daughter had to have a heart op at 4 months, and she's forever getting infections - last week they suspected pneumonia (again), so it's a big strain on the parents.

They are great people though and have a lot of support from family and friends, as well as being very actively involved in making sure their daughter gets as much help as possible - they also have understanding employers. Their daughter is pretty lucky by all accounts - but if they didn't have the support or help they have, it would be pretty horrible for them all.


----------



## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

Is it me or do you generally see a lot less people with downs syndrome around these days?

And for the record, abort sadly though it would be no doubt one of the hardest, if not the hardest decision anyone would have to make.


----------



## Beklet (May 13, 2005)

digitalis said:


> Is it me or do you generally see a lot less people with downs syndrome around these days?
> 
> And for the record, abort sadly though it would be no doubt one of the hardest, if not the hardest decision anyone would have to make.


There are less because most people abort.

Not an easy decision though - the tests are carried out at 20 weeks and the abortion limit is 24 weeks...I'm sure my mate said 1 in 1000 children would have Downs, it's a random mutation but as 90% are aborted, there are far fewer than that actually born


----------



## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

Very interesting thanks for the input.

It always makes me sad when I see elderly people pushing a severely disabled child who is now in middle ages.


----------



## Gym-pig (Jun 25, 2008)

In a cafe my son said hello to a teenager with downs .

Shortly afterwards his mother came over and said he was a credit to me as everyone , everyday looks away from her and her son and appears embarrassed

Takes guts to get such a child terminated and more guts to raise them and be treated poorly by society .


----------



## klint37 (Jan 26, 2012)

A great many years back before testing my uncle was born with downs...he died within the week andfrimley beleave due to their religon if there were testing about then they would still have had him. i think people with downs lead positive lives so for me to abort for that reason the no i wouldnt. But if it was like those kids two heads one body then yes i would


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

mikep81 said:


> I think this is what separates people in this debate. Personally I don't instantly think of a foetus as a child until the later stages of pregnancy. I hear people saying now, and I think that some have mentioned it on here, things like "I could never imagine having me child aborted, because she's brilliant". And I think the same about my little girl, but the fact is that you have no idea what that foetus is going to grow into so I don't think it's really a valid argument. As said I think it all comes down to at what stage do you class it as a child. Personally I don't see a problem with abortion at all. The "child" isn't developed enough to understand or think so it hasn't started to live yet, if that makes sense. Maybe I have these views because I was in Afghan for the duration of my wife's pregnancy I don't know but I'm pretty sure I'd be pro abortion if my child to be had a disability.


I think you may have missed the original post l was reffering too mate, l wasnt reffering to a foetus as a child.


----------



## broch316 (Dec 24, 2011)

digitalis said:


> Very interesting thanks for the input.
> 
> It always makes me sad when I see elderly people pushing a severely disabled child who is now in middle ages.


i dont get why that would make u feel sad . for all u know the 3 of them probaly love thier lives and have led great lives . the last thing they want is people looking on with pitty. because to them they are normal and wouldnt change it for the world... normal is whatever u grow up with....


----------



## IGotTekkers (Jun 6, 2012)

having a normal child is a stressful, full time job. having a downy child imo is still gonna be a stressful, full time job. the only difference I can see is their overall life expectancy and their face. to me it's kind of like when the foot and mouth stuff was about and the farmers were like "we must kill and destroy all these animals, so they don't die". logic of a sun reader if you ask me.

don't neg me for the sun comment, I bought a copy yesterday.


----------



## sockie (Jul 1, 2012)

No


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

Milky said:


> I think you may have missed the original post l was reffering too mate, l wasnt reffering to a foetus as a child.


No I got what you meant, was just using your post to highlight my thoughts and wasn't aimed at you to be honest. Was more towards the general groupings of those that feel a foetus is a child and those like me that don't look at one that way until the later stages of the pregnancy. If that makes sense?!


----------



## ws0158 (Jun 23, 2010)

been thinking about this all day now!!!


----------



## LutherLee (Apr 30, 2010)

at 1st i think yes, but i don't think you'd really know unless you were living it!


----------



## fitrut (Nov 20, 2007)

LutherLee said:


> at 1st i think yes, but i don't think you'd really know unless you were living it!


best point of the thread imo


----------



## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

no and anybody that would is a cnut dont care who i offend to be honest

who says havent downs syndrome makes there life worth giving up

not many people on here know ( a few do though but i dont talk about it much) but my 4 yr old son has severe brain disability, life is beyond tough for us all amd will be forever, he will never be able to live on his own and the chances of him having a wife and kids are very low, we are currently in the process of getting him in a specialist school, we have to home therapy and teach him basic skilss for 8+hours a day, he has a special very expensive diet, he doesnt really sleep at all, the list is endless

butt....hes is the most brillian person ive ever known, my HERO be it known, because the small achievements he has made that most kids take for granted are huge obstacles for him that show such determination and power that i and most adults i know could never work towards, he also is a loving and bright child who's passion in life is animals and the world around us, he knows every bird off by heart lol and reads books day and night haha, he makes me appreciate life so much more and is the toughest bravest lad ive ever met

when you decide to make a life you sign your life to your child, they didnt ask for you to make them you owe it to them to make there life worth every sacrifice you can to give them your best

ive spent alot of time being angry at the world and begging god to change what he did to my son but lifes not like that unfortunately

the way you play your card is more important that the card your delt


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

infernal0988 said:


> IMO if they have tests done to see if their children are to be born with a syndrom like downs , then abortion can be justified yes & i say taht cause what kind of quality of life can that baby really have ? Its not ment as cruel but think about it being born with a syndrom like downs and your life will never be really any good now will it?


Perhaps read the post above yours.


----------



## nowhereboy (May 22, 2012)

digitalis said:


> Very interesting thanks for the input.
> 
> It always makes me sad when I see elderly people pushing a severely disabled child who is now in middle ages.


Seen a lot of this in care.

One woman was over 90 and had dementia and she was looking after a wheelchair bound guy with severe learning difficulty's. Was such a crazy experience just walking into her house. Proper eye opener.

Another person I looked after had severe learning difficulties and epilepsy, she lived with a 90 year old woman who did EVERYTHING for her. This woman was the most inspiring and amazing person I ever met, so positive and a joy to be around.

Never got to say goodbye to her either when I left my job. I keep thinking about popping round but I don't know if its the right thing to do.


----------



## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

Milky said:


> Perhaps read the post above yours.


Ah dammit me & my big mouth :sad:


----------



## Shady45 (Jan 5, 2010)

infernal0988 said:


> IMO if they have tests done to see if their children are to be born with a syndrom like downs , then abortion can be justified yes & i say taht cause what kind of quality of life can that baby really have ? Its not ment as cruel but think about it being born with a syndrom like downs and your life will never be really any good now will it?


Horrible assumption to make imo.

I think topics like this border on population cleansing tbh


----------



## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

Oh christ Godwin's Law is waiting in the wings.


----------



## Shady45 (Jan 5, 2010)

digitalis said:


> Oh christ Goodwins Law is waiting in the wings.


Was I wrong then?


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Shady45 said:


> Horrible assumption to make imo.
> 
> I think topics like this border on population cleansing tbh


End of the day people are entitled to make decisions they feel will affect there lives, we dont all have to agree but what we can do is listen and not judge veiws from either side.


----------



## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

Godwin's law, sorry I misspelt it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion-regardless of topic or scope-someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis.

And yes, you were because that was forced eugenics. This is a discussion about voluntary choice. Big difference.


----------



## cas (Jan 9, 2011)

When my Mrs was pregnant they asked us if we wanted to have a test done that could tell us if the baby had downs, we point blank turned the test down....we would keep the child regardless.


----------



## Shady45 (Jan 5, 2010)

Milky said:


> End of the day people are entitled to make decisions they feel will affect there lives, we dont all have to agree but what we can do is listen and not judge veiws from either side.


Which is why I put imo. I have not stated my opinion as fact.

I'm very open to other people's views. But, again imo, it is a very dangerous assumption that people with down syndrome or other syndromes can't have any quality of life.

My views ain't based on aborting children. I'm not against abortion. However, I am against some of the views as to why people with disorders should be aborted.


----------



## Shady45 (Jan 5, 2010)

digitalis said:


> Godwin's law, sorry I misspelt it.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
> 
> ...


I assumed you meant that. Why are you talking about Hitler? I never compared it to Hitler.

I never even said that this is population cleansing, I said that the topic can border on that, which it is fact that it can.


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Shady45 said:


> Which is why I put imo. I have not stated my opinion as fact.
> 
> I'm very open to other people's views. But, again imo, it is a very dangerous assumption that people with down syndrome or other syndromes can't have any quality of life.
> 
> My views ain't based on aborting children. I'm not against abortion. However, I am against some of the views as to why people with disorders should be aborted.


Wasnt a dig in any way mate just an observation in general.

Very immotive subject and l actually agree with you, l cant really give an honest opinion on it as l dont know what l feel is right.


----------



## irishdude (Sep 26, 2009)

We're expecting our first kid and we chose to have a combined nucal scan, everything looks fine thanksfully but we were definitely nervous waiting on the results. It's an incredibly difficult question to answer on whether an abortion can be justified if you're told your kid is going to be down syndrome. It all depends on your ethical views at the end of the day. I can totally understand the argument that the child will be a huge burden on the parents, and will require a high level of care for the rest of his/her life. Then again, it's been shown that some DS children can enjoy a quality of life high above expectations and greatly enrich the lives of their parents and those around them. A really horrible situation to face for any would be parent, and either way it's decision that a couple has to reach on their own and be respected for whatever they decide.


----------



## Shady45 (Jan 5, 2010)

Milky said:


> Wasnt a dig in any way mate just an observation in general.
> 
> Very immotive subject and l actually agree with you, l cant really give an honest opinion on it as l dont know what l feel is right.


Sorry if I went on the offensive a bit lol just want to get my point across as I mean it.

Don't want people suggesting that I think everyone for abortion is a mini Hitler and trying to cleanse the population


----------



## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

Shady45 said:


> I assumed you meant that. Why are you talking about Hitler? I never compared it to Hitler.
> 
> I never even said that this is population cleansing, I said that the topic can border on that, which it is fact that it can.


To be fair mate it wasn't aimed at you in particular but I think it's fair to say someone was likely to make a nazi analogy following on from a post that referred to population cleansing. No dramas, crossed wires.


----------



## onthebuild (Sep 3, 2011)

Rick89 said:


> no and anybody that would is a cnut dont care who i offend to be honest
> 
> who says havent downs syndrome makes there life worth giving up
> 
> ...


First of all I in no way intend to offend you at all, I have massive respect for the post I quoted and can firmly say I have no idea of the hsardships you and your family have been through.

However that being said, as you say "when you decide to make a life you sign your life to your child, they didnt ask for you to make them you owe it to them to make there life worth every sacrifice you can to give them your best".

What if you believe the 'best' you can give is is an escape from the hardships they are going to suffer, through abortion?

It would kill me inside if I knew my child would have downs, decided to keep him/her, and they one day they turned around and said something like 'i hate my life, I wish I was never born'. KNOWING I could have prevented their suffering would be terrible IMO.


----------



## Shady45 (Jan 5, 2010)

digitalis said:


> To be fair mate it wasn't aimed at you in particular but I think it's fair to say someone was likely to make a nazi analogy following on from a post that referred to population cleansing. No dramas, crossed wires.


Fair enough. Maybe I jumped at you a bit


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

Rick89 said:


> no and anybody that would is a cnut dont care who i offend to be honest
> 
> who says havent downs syndrome makes there life worth giving up
> 
> ...


Good post. However, I think in terms of this debate it's difficult for your self to have an objective opinion, bare with me on this as I mean no disrespect by that at all. What I mean is, clearly you love your child and would do anything for him, but you already have him in your life, and know and love him as a person. For you to admit that aborting a disabled child is the right thing, I would imagine, would almost feel like you were saying you should have aborted yours, which clearly, now that he's in the world is not something you would ever even contemplate, as no parent would. I think any parent that are able to do their best for a disabled child is amazing and take my hat off to you.

My personal view is that before a child is born, you don't know it, you don't love it like you a do once it's born and if you do abort, for whatever reason, won't miss it as such (I know that's a loose statement, just trying to not go into too much detail given the sensitive nature here) because it never was. That's just my view on it anyway, and I respect yours completely and like as I said I'm not trying to disrespect or offend you.


----------



## digitalis (Sep 13, 2011)

No worries mayyte (in put on Aussie accent)


----------



## LutherLee (Apr 30, 2010)

Rick89 said:


> no and anybody that would is a cnut dont care who i offend to be honest
> 
> who says havent downs syndrome makes there life worth giving up
> 
> ...


This post is very powerful! Respect pal


----------



## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

mikep81 said:


> Good post. However, I think in terms of this debate it's difficult for your self to have an objective opinion, bare with me on this as I mean no disrespect by that at all. What I mean is, clearly you love your child and would do anything for him, but you already have him in your life, and know and love him as a person. For you to admit that aborting a disabled child is the right thing, I would imagine, would almost feel like you were saying you should have aborted yours, which clearly, now that he's in the world is not something you would ever even contemplate, as no parent would. I think any parent that are able to do their best for a disabled child is amazing and take my hat off to you.
> 
> My personal view is that before a child is born, you don't know it, you don't love it like you a do once it's born and if you do abort, for whatever reason, won't miss it as such (I know that's a loose statement, just trying to not go into too much detail given the sensitive nature here) because it never was. That's just my view on it anyway, and I respect yours completely and like as I said I'm not trying to disrespect or offend you.


Maybe your right maybe I cant comment as my heart isnt in the right place for this thread

There probably isnt a right answer


----------



## Milky (Nov 30, 2008)

Rick89 said:


> Maybe your right maybe I cant comment as my heart isnt in the right place for this thread
> 
> There probably isnt a right answer


There isnt a right answer mate your spot on, all we can do is respect other peoples opinons and try and understand them.

You have my utmost respect for your situation mate, with all my heart.


----------



## jaycue2u (Jul 23, 2011)

Personally i think myself & wife would abort. This is based on what my mother & wife do for a living. My mother works as an inhouse carer for a 40YO woman with downs; the woman cant talk, is partially deaf & blind, cant move around easily un aided, cant wash or go to the toilet alone, IMO that is not living, thats existing.

My wife predominently works with older people with differing disabilities, but she has worked with several people with downs with differing levels of disability.

I know these are other people family so it would be 'easy' for me to say abortion may have been an option, but seeing the quality of life (more so in whom my mother cares for) i would certainly consider abortion.


----------



## Shady45 (Jan 5, 2010)

mikep81 said:


> Good post. However, I think in terms of this debate it's difficult for your self to have an objective opinion, bare with me on this as I mean no disrespect by that at all. What I mean is, clearly you love your child and would do anything for him, but you already have him in your life, and know and love him as a person. For you to admit that aborting a disabled child is the right thing, I would imagine, would almost feel like you were saying you should have aborted yours, which clearly, now that he's in the world is not something you would ever even contemplate, as no parent would. I think any parent that are able to do their best for a disabled child is amazing and take my hat off to you.
> 
> My personal view is that before a child is born, you don't know it, you don't love it like you a do once it's born and if you do abort, for whatever reason, won't miss it as such (I know that's a loose statement, just trying to not go into too much detail given the sensitive nature here) because it never was. That's just my view on it anyway, and I respect yours completely and like as I said I'm not trying to disrespect or offend you.


I see your point, but at the same time are people with disabled children not more able to answer this well? They know better than anyone (apart from the actual person) how their children feel and most are not suffering from clinical depression wishing that they were not born.

This thread and similar ones have a lot of wrong assumptions and show very little knowledge of the topic (which is complete fair enough imo, not many people learn about it).


----------



## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Milky said:


> There isnt a right answer mate your spot on, all we can do is respect other peoples opinons and try and understand them.
> 
> You have my utmost respect for your situation mate, with all my heart.


I hear you mate and agree

Its not me that deserves the respect mate its these children that battle everyday, the whole time with a big happy smile on there face


----------



## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

Rick89 said:


> Maybe your right maybe I cant comment as my heart isnt in the right place for this thread
> 
> There probably isnt a right answer


Your a good man with a good heart


----------



## LutherLee (Apr 30, 2010)

you have to respect anyone who would have the child, but the thing is not everyone would be able to cope. There are also other things to consider like other children with in the family. Every case is different!


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

Shady45 said:


> I see your point, but at the same time are people with disabled children not more able to answer this well? They know better than anyone (apart from the actual person) how their children feel and most are not suffering from clinical depression wishing that they were not born.
> 
> This thread and similar ones have a lot of wrong assumptions and show very little knowledge of the topic (which is complete fair enough imo, not many people learn about it).


I don't if they are in a better position to answer this particular type of question to be honest. Any parent, and as one myself, would never speak badly of their children and from the few I've met and those that my wife has worked with that have had disabled children they're just as biased if not more, because of the hardships they've had to suffer and the amazing things that they may have witnessed with their child. I know there are many, many children that have some real sh!tty disabilities but seem to live a happy life, but I'm sure there are a fair few who don't, or as someone else has said, don't feel or think anything and just exist.

Obviously once a child is born things change so much, whether disabled or not. When I found out my wife was pregnant I wanted a boy desperately as I have two step daughters already. I was in Afghan during the pregnancy and because we weren't allowed mail where we were I didn't get my fathers day card (that she had signed from "unborn Loui") until really late, but it just happened to be a few days after my wife had her scan to determine the sex. I assumed that she'd waited to send the card and thought we were having and when I eventually found out I was in fact having a girl I was genuinely p!ssed off. And I mean proper p!ssed off, to the point where I joked about having it aborted and trying again for a boy (obviously not with my wife but with the lads in Afghan). To be completely honest, I was still a little down about it going into the hospital but the second she was born I was the happiest bloke ever and wouldn't change her for anything. My point is that once a child has been born it is impossible for parents to be objective about any debate involving children because of the way we feel about our kids, disabled or not. I'm not sure I've made sense there!

Anyway like Milky says, there isn't really a right or wrong answer here. I have massive respect though for those parents that have disabled children and soldier on always giving their child all they can.


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

lot of talk about 'quality of life' but people dont realise is when a child is born with a disability, they have diffferent expectations in life and can value the little things as they have no understanding of 'taking things for granted'..like poor people who can appreciate small gifts rather than someone rich....little sister was 13 before she could finally learn how to ride a bike, took bout 5years, but seeing the pride she had when she could as priceless, so were we might think a quality of life might be ****, it mighten be to the child....not in all cases though


----------



## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

anyway guys lets talk about smashing some bird back doors in or ,massive cycles instead :lol:


----------



## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

barsnack said:


> lot of talk about 'quality of life' but people dont realise is when a child is born with a disability, they have diffferent expectations in life and can value the little things as they have no understanding of 'taking things for granted'..like poor people who can appreciate small gifts rather than someone rich....little sister was 13 before she could finally learn how to ride a bike, took bout 5years, but seeing the pride she had when she could as priceless, so were we might think a quality of life might be ****, it mighten be to the child....not in all cases though


brillaint post mate reps

I know that feeling so much


----------



## LuLuJJ (Jan 15, 2012)

Go on YouTube and look for abortion videos.. When they're past a certain age they have to be sucked out, they have theirs arms and legs and head pulled off! Fcuking disgusting I couldn't possibly do that to an unborn baby (no judgements just my opinion)


----------



## infernal0988 (Jun 16, 2011)

Rick89 said:


> anyway guys lets talk about smashing some bird back doors in or ,massive cycles instead :lol:


finally something we can all relate to namely gear !


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

LuLuJJ said:


> Go on YouTube and look for abortion videos.. When they're past a certain age they have to be sucked out, they have theirs arms and legs and head pulled off! Fcuking disgusting I couldn't possibly do that to an unborn baby (no judgements just my opinion)


i cant take anything you say serious with that avi pic...and im not even sorry


----------



## LuLuJJ (Jan 15, 2012)

Here I am a mere little woman trying to put my serious opinion across and people like you come along and comment on my ass!! HAHAHA not that I don't enjoy it of course!


----------



## Shady45 (Jan 5, 2010)

mikep81 said:


> I don't if they are in a better position to answer this particular type of question to be honest. Any parent, and as one myself, would never speak badly of their children and from the few I've met and those that my wife has worked with that have had disabled children they're just as biased if not more, because of the hardships they've had to suffer and the amazing things that they may have witnessed with their child. I know there are many, many children that have some real sh!tty disabilities but seem to live a happy life, but I'm sure there are a fair few who don't, or as someone else has said, don't feel or think anything and just exist.
> 
> Obviously once a child is born things change so much, whether disabled or not. When I found out my wife was pregnant I wanted a boy desperately as I have two step daughters already. I was in Afghan during the pregnancy and because we weren't allowed mail where we were I didn't get my fathers day card (that she had signed from "unborn Loui") until really late, but it just happened to be a few days after my wife had her scan to determine the sex. I assumed that she'd waited to send the card and thought we were having and when I eventually found out I was in fact having a girl I was genuinely p!ssed off. And I mean proper p!ssed off, to the point where I joked about having it aborted and trying again for a boy (obviously not with my wife but with the lads in Afghan). To be completely honest, I was still a little down about it going into the hospital but the second she was born I was the happiest bloke ever and wouldn't change her for anything. My point is that once a child has been born it is impossible for parents to be objective about any debate involving children because of the way we feel about our kids, disabled or not. I'm not sure I've made sense there!
> 
> Anyway like Milky says, there isn't really a right or wrong answer here. I have massive respect though for those parents that have disabled children and soldier on always giving their child all they can.


Whilst I generally agree that people shouldnt have emotional involvement, for reasons such as those you mentioned.

But as I said, the average person knows very little about those with mental health and make bold assumptions that are not true. I have no problem with either side of the argument if backed properly.

As said though, there is no right or wrong answer as such


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

LuLuJJ said:


> Here I am a mere little woman trying to put my serious opinion across and people like you come along and comment on my ass!! HAHAHA not that I don't enjoy it of course!


i didnt realsie that was actually your ass..some guys on here have fit birds on theres so kinda assumed that....congratu;lations on it, very very nice


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

LuLuJJ said:


> Go on YouTube and look for abortion videos.. When they're past a certain age they have to be sucked out, they have theirs arms and legs and head pulled off! Fcuking disgusting I couldn't possibly do that to an unborn baby (no judgements just my opinion)


Where the fcuk did u get that from?? My mrs took the abortion drugs and gave birth to a little unborn complete foetus, she took her first and last gasp of breath and we spent 24 hours with her.

This comment is either ill informed or just down right pathetic!!


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

can i add @Rick89 , my decision wasnt an easy one, we looked into spina bifida (as much as we could in the time given) and had to be honest with ourselves


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Fatstuff said:


> Where the fcuk did u get that from?? My mrs took the abortion drugs and gave birth to a little unborn complete foetus, she took her first and last gasp of breath and we spent 24 hours with her.
> 
> This comment is either ill informed or just down right pathetic!!


this is actually how they used to, not sure about now, performed abortions, think its called Manual and Vacuum Aspiration, not sure though, but is true


----------



## WilsonR6 (Feb 14, 2012)

Yes


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

Fatstuff said:


> can i add @Rick89 , my decision wasnt an easy one, we looked into spina bifida (as much as we could in the time given) and had to be honest with ourselves


can sympthaise with yuor decision, my aunt had spina bifida, she died after 2years and i know her quality of life was extremely poor, hope any future children are healthy and well


----------



## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Fatstuff said:


> can i add @Rick89 , my decision wasnt an easy one, we looked into spina bifida (as much as we could in the time given) and had to be honest with ourselves


mate im no one to judge, to be truthfull i dont even know what spina bifida is

i like you as a member mate and as i said i dont judge you decision 

situations are all different and so are people dealing with them


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

barsnack said:


> can sympthaise with yuor decision, my aunt had spina bifida, she died after 2years and i know her quality of life was extremely poor, hope any future children are healthy and well


got a little boy m8 and he is healthy and cheeky lol thanks -

the more i read into spina bifida, the more i felt like i was going down a steep hill where the options of keeping her were further and further away. Its not a nice condition.


----------



## husky (Jan 31, 2010)

truely horrible subject to even contemplate and my heart goes out to any person who has found that they have had to think about it. My wife and me have been lucky to have never had to approach this subject and i can only try and imagine the torment that must go through someones mind. Any parent who has a child that has any form of disability has my respect as its hard enough bringing up children who are not disabled.


----------



## LuLuJJ (Jan 15, 2012)

Fatstuff said:


> Where the fcuk did u get that from?? My mrs took the abortion drugs and gave birth to a little unborn complete foetus, she took her first and last gasp of breath and we spent 24 hours with her.
> 
> This comment is either ill informed or just down right pathetic!!


I said go on YouTube.. I know what I saw and I know what I've read.. I don't doubt that's how it happened for you but there's no need I start getting lairy look it up.. Just like I did.


----------



## TG123 (Apr 10, 2012)

What about if you thought the baby was gonna be ginger?


----------



## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

No chance would i abort a child because of downsyndrome its totally wrong.

They function and have feelings just like us

As Milky said unless the child had no quality of life then i would


----------



## Deeboy (Dec 1, 2007)

No i wouldnt abort a child of mine if it was down syndrome.


----------



## alan1971 (Mar 30, 2012)

Theres people out there not capable of looking after a normal kid, never mind one with downs.

Yeh using the excuse of being able to not cope is one thing, but you will never know unless it happens to you.


----------



## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

alan1971 said:


> Theres people out there not capable of looking after a normal kid, never mind one with downs.
> 
> Yeh using the excuse of being able to not cope is one thing, but you will never know unless it happens to you.


Then give the child to a family who can cope and love the child,,,because someone cant cope doesnt give the right to abort a child,,,well in truth i would use the word murder really because thats what it is basically.


----------



## Madoxx (Nov 7, 2010)

Its not a simple question, you have to consider other possibilities, your other children, you and your partner. Many other variations to consider and until your in this position you cannot honestly answer the question.

I have been in this position, not downsyndrome, however hugeley handicapped. We terminated. Not an easy decision by any means, had us both in tears night after night. However given the fact we already had 3 young children we felt we would neglect the other 3 children if we allowed a child that was severely handicapped to enter the world. We felt we would have to give child no.4 so much attention and time it would be unfair to the original 3


----------



## Cutandjacked (Oct 30, 2012)

U r one sick f**k!


----------



## BigTrev (Mar 16, 2008)

madocks said:


> Its not a simple question, you have to consider other possibilities, your other children, you and your partner. Many other variations to consider and until your in this position you cannot honestly answer the question.
> 
> I have been in this position, not downsyndrome, however hugeley handicapped. We terminated. Not an easy decision by any means, had us both in tears night after night. However given the fact we already had 3 young children we felt we would neglect the other 3 children if we allowed a child that was severely handicapped to enter the world. We felt we would have to give child no.4 so much attention and time it would be unfair to the original 3


I feel your case is totally different and understandable to.

That child would not of had a good quality of life and think yous done the right thing


----------



## gycraig (Oct 5, 2008)

Would abort definitely.

I don't have the resources/space/patient for a Down syndrome child. Call me selfish but I don't want to be looking after a 25 year old with the mental capabilities of a 5 year old


----------



## alan1971 (Mar 30, 2012)

thing with down sydrome is there is different levels of severity, some have hardly any problems, where others have a whole lot of problems.

Though from experience they are very loving people, are always happy, and would'nt do a thing to harm a fly.

Shame normal people was'nt more like them.


----------



## frenchpress (Nov 22, 2012)

BigTrev said:


> Then give the child to a family who can cope and love the child,,,because someone cant cope doesnt give the right to abort a child,,,well in truth i would use the word murder really because thats what it is basically.


How many people do you think are actually willing to long term adopt kids with severe mental or physical disabilities?


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> well in truth i would use the word murder


Pathetic word murder - more like mercy !!!



> adopt kids with severe mental or physical disabilities?


a few will but not many thats why the orphanages are always full and plenty to fill a cot when one child dies - Its an awful thing but as stated if i could play the grim reaper then i would and play it with abandon at the orphanage i go to. If some could see the severity of some deformities i have seen in Asia then almost all would abort !


----------



## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

frenchpress said:


> How many people do you think are actually willing to long term adopt kids with severe mental or physical disabilities?


My sister does both! the kids who enter our family are instantly members of the family, they aren't any different to any other family member!

On the other hand, just yesterday i was with a mate doing some xmas shopping *having a few drinks and some dinner* and we met a couple that my mate knew, they were almost through with the adoption paperwork, i was blethering away about how hard it is to get through the red tape/paperwork, all the while these kids are missing out on a loving family...and saying what my families experience had been...and the guy said they wouldn't be able to take on what my sister has.....whilst i understand it...those who have a family naturally don't get to decide if the baby they make is disabled, when it happens, it isn't something the family signed up for!

My first, well, when we went for the 12 week scan they knew there were issues...we both spoke and agree'd to go ahead regardless. As the time progressed they warned us of all sorts we would be facing...when she was born, they said it would be worse than they had first imagined, she wouldn't walk, she would have mental disabilities etc(there is loads more that actually are true, but they can and are dealt with and she leads an almost normal life!) those things they told us, some would have chosen to 'get rid' of her...and here she is, dancing around, very bright, popular etc....she has an awesome quality of life, is happy, yes she has health issues with her kidneys and the 'space' that was left when the tumour was removed and has to go to hospital a few times per year...BUT, she is healthy, does things they said weren't possible and continues to prove the text books wrong!

My mam, when i was wee was friends with a woman who was pregnant with her second child, the docs told her that the baby had edwards syndrome and wouldn't live for more than a few hours after birth.....that baby is now a fully grown healthy woman with two healthy kids of her own!

I understand when the disability is so severe that there will be no quality of life, but there is SO many cases where the worst is expected....to turn out to be nothing of the sort....and when nothing is suspected...but the worst happens!

When Lauren was born we lived in the city kids hospital for 6 months, the things we saw were wide and varied, MOST had no warning of what was going to happen, regardless of how severe the actual situ was when the baby was born. The thing about this type of convo, is that most here typing their thoughts have no personal experience....our time in the hospital was stressful for US....but the kids there were happy, laughed most of the time and for the lack of a better way of putting it 'their situ was NORMAL to them!'

Something like this is a very personal thing, i am not slating anyone or anyones thought, just putting my view in the mix, having not only expected the worst and gotten lucky, but having felt guilty at my situ when other people weren't so lucky. We watched a 3 year old die of cancer....no tests warned wee Jacks mam and dad before he was born of what they would have to watch him suffer through, the whole time we spoke to them, we were terrified....cause Laurens biopsies hadn't come back. It DOES take a special kind of strength to get through that kind of situation, NONE of those going through it signed up for it though...they found it, and i have NEVER met anyone who said it wasn't worth it.


----------



## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

romper stomper said:


> Pathetic word murder - more like mercy !!!
> 
> a few will but not many thats why the orphanages are always full and plenty to fill a cot when one child dies - Its an awful thing but as stated if i could play the grim reaper then i would and play it with abandon at the orphanage i go to. If some could see the severity of some deformities i have seen in Asia then almost all would abort !


but you are judging that on kids who are already born...where the problems are actual reality....the tests only show indicators...if i had listened to the results and aborted, my wee one wouldn't be here.....if my mums mate had saw 'mercy' through their test results, then that woman wouldn't be here, and her kids wouldn't be here...all of whom healthy. wee baby Jack would still have been born and suffered...cause there was no indication, just as there was with wee Joseph...and many others, i have been to so many young kids funerals that i could be here all night listing their names....wee souls, very few of them had precursors show up in 'the tests'

Whilst i agree with you on the cases of mercy when they actually know what they are dealing with, i know too many stories from both sides that i have witnessed with my own eyes to not allow the test results to be seen as reliable Could be killing a healthy baby, or making another survive through hell. Sadly we don't have the tests available to make it more accurate, maybe in the future...but until then, all kids deserve a loving family and to be looked after properly, according to their needs imo.


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

True tests are not certain -true- but i would never ever take the chance myself


----------



## alan1971 (Mar 30, 2012)

Yeh these test are not accurate at all, i've known several people that had the test done and was said there was a possibility that there child as down syndrome, and once born, they was 100% normal with no probs at all.


----------



## sam2012 (Mar 28, 2009)

If there's a risk involved with giving birth then imo I think its morally ethical. If you're just getting rid of a baby purely because it has downsyndrome then I think thats disgusting to be honest. It says a lot about the person in question. Just my opinion.


----------



## Rob68 (Sep 16, 2008)

Not read all the replies in the thread ...

The people who say they would terminate if it was to show up on scans etc ...

What would you do if the scans where given the all clear then as the child starts to grow to find out then that there was some disability or long term illness ?

Would you walk away from that child then ?


----------



## Nidge (Jan 22, 2007)

Freeby0 said:


> I always wonderd what id do if it happend to me, what would you do?


Keep it downs syndrome kids are on the money. A life is a life.


----------



## BatemanLondon (Jun 14, 2011)

i think its down to if you can care and look after it and give the child a good life, a normal healthy child its hard enough .. one with a disabilty .. that must be real hard.

I often praise and respect those that can , I couldnt do it ... it takes a real strong person in my opinion to be able to look after a child who is born with a disability ..

I just couldnt do it


----------



## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

No chance I could not do it if the misses was pregnant. Everyone deserves life! A parent needs to step up to the mark, if they dont, they shouldnt have borthered trying in the first place to make a child


----------



## Papa Lazarou (Jul 4, 2007)

Couldn't say. I'd love to say I can but it depends on you and your partner.


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> Everyone deserves life!


and some deserve a death !


----------



## -AC- (Jul 9, 2011)

romper stomper said:


> and some deserve a death !


there is no way that a baby who hasnt commited any crime or hurt anyone in any way deserves death. IMO the only people who deserve death are those that cause suffering to others. your comment is stupid.

in response to the original question i genuinely dont know what i would do.


----------



## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

-AC- said:


> there is no way that a baby who hasnt commited any crime or hurt anyone in any way deserves death. IMO the only people who deserve death are those that cause suffering to others. your comment is stupid.
> 
> in response to the original question i genuinely dont know what i would do.


Years back I would have agree'd with the first part of your post, but after seeing some of the more severe cases, where the kids have NO quality of life and are in constant pain I disagree. Sometimes it is so bad that making them live IS cruel. It's heartbreaking but its true, and once you have seen that type of suffering you understand.


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

I brought it up with my mrs yesterday asking her if she had any regrets. She said she often wonders 'what if?' But doesn't have any regrets, we had a nice chat about it.

She reminded me that she would of had fluid on the brain also - hydrocephalus iirc. Kinda eased any doubts that were put in my head from the back of this thread.

I think a lot of ppl are too quick to judge with no real experience of it.


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

-AC- said:


> there is no way that a baby who hasnt commited any crime or hurt anyone in any way deserves death. IMO the only people who deserve death are those that cause suffering to others. your comment is stupid.
> 
> in response to the original question i genuinely dont know what i would do.


have you read Romper's previous posts on the first few pages? If not , It'll explain his reason for saying what he said.


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

Rob68 said:


> Not read all the replies in the thread ...
> 
> The people who say they would terminate if it was to show up on scans etc ...
> 
> ...


Thats a completely different ball game all together once the child is born. I'd never abandon my child if it was disabled or if my girl developed a disability, but wouldn't have a problem aborting a developing baby that I'd never met and that wasn't developed enough to be aware of anything if I felt the chances of it having a nice life were low. At that stage it's effectively a vegetable. It just exists because it hasn't yet developed into a thinking child, in my opinion it isn't a life at that point.

Not sure if this has been asked yet, but those who are saying no to aborting a disabled kid. Are you guys completely against abortion full stop?

On a side not I read a story the other day about a couple who were told their baby would only live for a few hours after birth and were given the option to abort. They decided not to and went through with the pregnancy. The woman had a long labour and once the baby was born they got to spend 61 minutes with her before she passed (something to do with her lungs). Not sure how accurate it is but that takes some inner strength that does, knowing that the baby would die anyway.


----------



## frenchpress (Nov 22, 2012)

-AC- said:


> there is no way that a baby who hasnt commited any crime or hurt anyone in any way deserves death. IMO the only people who deserve death are those that cause suffering to others. your comment is stupid.
> 
> in response to the original question i genuinely dont know what i would do.


To be fair if you are someone who thinks 'if I found myself that disabled I would want to die', why would you give life to someone in that position?


----------



## Freeby0 (Oct 5, 2012)

jon-kent said:


> Weird thread for 2:40am mate lol, something keeping you awake and in a reflective mood ? Lol


Meh, was in deep thought due to lack of sleep.


----------



## Freeby0 (Oct 5, 2012)

Personally i would probably want it aborted the more i think about it and the more i read through the comments, not just because i would want the perfect family, but because its just unfair to bring sombody into the world who is going to be disabled and have a really hard life you know? its sounds cold putting it into words but i really dont mean it in a merciless way. But why not save them the trouble of that tough life. but then again i havent been in the situation i dont know what a parents love for there child feels like as im not a parent, but in a sense it is kind of just a wasted life. but hey thats just my opinion.


----------



## lumpo (Aug 8, 2012)

yes.


----------



## Mighty.Panda (Oct 5, 2011)

mikep81 said:


> Thats a completely different ball game all together once the child is born. I'd never abandon my child if it was disabled or if my girl developed a disability, but wouldn't have a problem aborting a developing baby that I'd never met and that wasn't developed enough to be aware of anything if I felt the chances of it having a nice life were low. At that stage it's effectively a vegetable. It just exists because it hasn't yet developed into a thinking child, in my opinion it isn't a life at that point.
> 
> Not sure if this has been asked yet, but those who are saying no to aborting a disabled kid. Are you guys completely against abortion full stop?
> 
> On a side not I read a story the other day about a couple who were told their baby would o*nly live for a few hours after birth and were given the option to abort. They decided not to and went through with the pregnancy. The woman had a long labour and once the baby was born they got to spend 61 minutes with her before she passed (something to do with her lungs)*. Not sure how accurate it is but that takes some inner strength that does, knowing that the baby would die anyway.


This is actually exactly what happened with my sister. She was born and and lived outside for an hour or two before drowning internally because her lungs were full of fluid. I'm pretty sure the doctors knew something was going to be wrong and they thought she would have been born very prematurely and small but I think my mum still wanted it to happen. Back in 92 the detection methods weren't as sophisticated though I guess. I don't think my dad agreed with her and I know now that my mum regrets it because she just gave birth so my sis could slowly die for an hour or two.

I've only skim read the whole thread and tended to drift more over the posts by people I tend to talk to like you, Milky and Fatstuff and you've pretty much summed up my view. If it was still a clump of cells, an early piece of pre-fetal matter I would abort, because it isn't really a baby. We'll probably never decide on the exact time that "it" becomes a baby and gains sentience and feeling but before it has actually got a head, limbs, a brain, a nervous system is the time that I would make the call.

Good quote by one of my favourite authors the Neuroscientist Sam Harris.

"A three-day-old human embryo is a collection of 150 cells called a blastocyst. There are, for the sake of comparison, more than 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly. The human embryos that are destroyed in stem-cell research do not have brains, or even neurons. Consequently, there is no reason to believe they can suffer their destruction in any way at all. It is worth remembered, in this context, that when a person's brain has died, we currently deem it acceptable to harvest his organs (provided he has donated them for this purpose) and bury him in the ground. If it is acceptable to treat a person whose brain has died as something less than a human being, it should be acceptable to treat a blastocyst as such. If you are concerned about suffering in this universe, killing a fly should present you with greater moral difficulties than killing a human blastocyst.

Perhaps you think that the crucial difference between a fly and a human blastocyst is to be found in the latter's potential to become a fully developed human being. But almost every cell in your body is a potential human being, given our recent advances in genetic engineering. Every time you scratch your nose, you have committed a Holocaust of potential human beings."


----------



## mikep81 (Oct 8, 2010)

Mighty.Panda said:


> This is actually exactly what happened with my sister. She was born and and lived outside for an hour or two before drowning internally because her lungs were full of fluid. I'm pretty sure the doctors knew something was going to be wrong and they thought she would have been born very prematurely and small but I think my mum still wanted it to happen. Back in 92 the detection methods weren't as sophisticated though I guess. I don't think my dad agreed with her and I know now that my mum regrets it because she just gave birth so my sis could slowly die for an hour or two.
> 
> I've only skim read the whole thread and tended to drift more over the posts by people I tend to talk to like you, Milky and Fatstuff and you've pretty much summed up my view. If it was still a clump of cells, an early piece of pre-fetal matter I would abort, because it isn't really a baby. We'll probably never decide on the exact time that "it" becomes a baby and gains sentience and feeling but before it has actually got a head, limbs, a brain, a nervous system is the time that I would make the call.
> 
> ...


That quote is exactly what I was trying to get at. Tempted to go back and paste it over all my feeble attempts at trying to say the same thing, lol!


----------



## Mighty.Panda (Oct 5, 2011)

mikep81 said:


> That quote is exactly what I was trying to get at. Tempted to go back and paste it over all my feeble attempts at trying to say the same thing, lol!


It was what I was trying to say too lol but alas I'm lazy and he puts it so well.


----------



## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

I like Sam Harris very smart guy!!


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> "A three-day-old human embryo is a collection of 150 cells called a blastocyst. There are, for the sake of comparison, more than 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly. The human embryos that are destroyed in stem-cell research do not have brains, or even neurons. Consequently, there is no reason to believe they can suffer their destruction in any way at all. It is worth remembered, in this context, that when a person's brain has died, we currently deem it acceptable to harvest his organs (provided he has donated them for this purpose) and bury him in the ground. If it is acceptable to treat a person whose brain has died as something less than a human being, it should be acceptable to treat a blastocyst as such. If you are concerned about suffering in this universe, killing a fly should present you with greater moral difficulties than killing a human blastocyst.
> 
> Perhaps you think that the crucial difference between a fly and a human blastocyst is to be found in the latter's potential to become a fully developed human being. But almost every cell in your body is a potential human being, given our recent advances in genetic engineering. Every time you scratch your nose, you have committed a Holocaust of potential human beings."


Well cant really test a 3 day embryo for possible disabilities ??? - and to put a better perspective what would a 24 week embryo consist of ?? the legal abortion limit


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

Your baby's growing steadily, having gained about 4 ounces since last week. That puts him at just over a pound. Since he's almost a foot long (picture an ear of corn), he cuts a pretty lean figure at this point, but his body is filling out proportionally and he'll soon start to plump up. His brain is also growing quickly now, and his taste buds are continuing to develop. His lungs are developing "branches" of the respiratory "tree" as well as cells that produce surfactant, a substance that will help his air sacs inflate once he hits the outside world. His skin is still thin and translucent, but that will start to change soon.

taken from the site - http://www.babycenter.com


----------



## Hera (May 6, 2011)

Just found this thread...it's a certianly a highly emotive subject. I think that a lot people choose to abort a child if they believe that they couldn't provide a quality of life for that child e.g to have the emotional, financial and time capactiy to offer what that child needs and chidlren with certain disabilities require more of this than a 'healthy' child. Some poeople argue that abortion is irresponsible, but I think it's irresponsible to proceed with a pregnancy when you will not be able to care properly for that child. I can also understand that people will want to save themselves from losing a child due to their illness; it's less traumatic to have an early abortion than to lose, for example, your 5 year old child.

Also, I'm a little confused by people referring to children with downs syndrome as 'being' downsyndrome. Surely a child has the syndrome and isn't defined by it e.g saying 'a downsyndrome baby'? I find it pretty insulting to people with the syndrome.

I can't say what I would do in that situation but have often wondered about how I'd feel in that situation. I am however pro choice...very much so.


----------



## Ser (Aug 10, 2008)

romper stomper said:


> Well cant really test a 3 day embryo for possible disabilities ??? - and to put a better perspective what would a 24 week embryo consist of ?? the legal abortion limit


My healthy 4 year old boy was born just 4 weeks after the cut off date, and I had been in labour for two of those weeks. Wee girl he is at nursery with, perfectly healthy was born at 23 weeks....

Usually the bloodtests and scan for abnormalities are done at 16-18 weeks.


----------



## romper stomper (Sep 26, 2012)

> I can't say what I would do in that situation but have often wondered about how I'd feel in that situation. I am however pro choice...very much so.


its a hard choice at any time - but i am all for abortions - in cases of possible abnormalities, downsyndrome ect - and in other circumstances - quality of live the main issue- i have always said to my parents if ever - ever i get a brain injury - in a coma and will end up a cabbage cripled/paralized - on life support i said that they MUST turn if off and let me go !!


----------



## dbaird (Sep 2, 2012)

well being gay it won't ever happen to me. But I have friends who have chosen to keep their pregnancy after bad test results, and its not always been great in my eyes. Women having to push still births etc

plus what happens when the parents die, or can't care for them? I know allot of them won't have that longer life. But the ones that do can probably face being in some kind of institution for a good part of their life.

I live on a farm and see life and death with animals every day, maybe the desensitises me to this. You see some disabled people in horrific circumstances and living their life sat in a chair or in pain, or abused by carers for what? The approach of a parent who just had to do the right thing?

Are we not seeing enough people who want to die but cannot? them people can express that wish.

It will probably offend people but their you go.


----------



## Super_G (Feb 20, 2012)

Had either of my two had anything like downs I would have been crushed. Iv said before I would want the baby aborted, but that's said when I'm not in the situation. No way could I even entertain the thought of having either of my two aborted, and should they have been disabled I would have no doubt brought them into the world as lovingly as I did anyway.

Always have major respect for parents of disabled kids who stay strong for their children


----------



## puurboi (Feb 16, 2011)

I would terminate if i found out my baby was going to have any sever detrimental, life long illness.

It is a bit selfish but i would not like to be alive in that condition and know i am a burden on my family for my entire life... i would abort no questions.

Me and the fianceé have actually had this conversation and both agreed on it.


----------



## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

puurboi said:


> I would terminate if i found out my baby was going to have any sever detrimental, life long illness.
> 
> It is a bit selfish but i would not like to be alive in that condition and know i am a burden on my family for my entire life... i would abort no questions.
> 
> Me and the fianceé have actually had this conversation and both agreed on it.


have you had any children your self?


----------



## puurboi (Feb 16, 2011)

big_jim_87 said:


> have you had any children your self?


No, but how is that relevant?

That is like saying "hey, you have never taken smack so you cant have an opinion on how bad it is".

Being a parent doesn't make you make any decisions better or worse... it just means you have offspring.


----------



## SierraAlpha (Jul 4, 2012)

Yes 100%. I woulnt want any sort of lifelong illness for my kids so if I got the chance to prevent it from happening I would. Hats off to people who do it but I don't see how wanting the very best for a child and your family is 'selfish' in the slightest. People can have any view they want but IMO it's more selfish to try and impose that view on other people. I wouldn't want my child to be unable to enjoy all the things life had to offer


----------



## GymEatSleepRepeat (Jan 14, 2009)

My bro has downsyndrome and is the most happy go lucky, cheeky chap, loving, kind, funny man i know!

In fact, they have done a TV programme on him and his housemates due to be released in the USA next year. The first series of this programme 'the specials' is online now.


----------



## murphy2010 (Dec 17, 2010)

It would be my girfriends decision, and whatever she said i'd stick with no matter what, especially since im wanting to join the army and could be away for long periods of time


----------



## GymEatSleepRepeat (Jan 14, 2009)

liam0810 said:


> Mate you might not agree with his views but by this post you are just making yourself look a complete cnut. Now wind you neck in


No, you dont understand how much i disagree with this chimps post.


----------



## scouse2010 (Mar 17, 2010)

abort any way as I dont want kids.....

I also wouldn't want a disabled baby even if I wanted a baby ,its hard enough looking after a normal one.


----------



## Lean&amp;Mean&amp;Clean (May 9, 2008)

thewre is no reason not to go ahead with abortion in any case


----------



## barsnack (Mar 12, 2011)

puurboi said:


> No, but how is that relevant?
> 
> That is like saying "hey, you have never taken smack so you cant have an opinion on how bad it is".
> 
> Being a parent doesn't make you make any decisions better or worse... it just means you have offspring.


would you terminate the baby as your smack use is out of control and you couldn't look after it?


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

I've given this a bit of thought; people terminate pregnancies for a whole host of different reasons... some far more trivial than the baby potentially being disabled. So I don't see why someone should be condemned for it being a factor in their design making process.

I think for me, the chances of me deciding one way or the other would be based upon the environment I was bringing the child into... but then again that would be the same regardless of whether the child had a disability, it might just move the goal posts further to side of things needing to be 'perfect' in my relationship and life. How far? I wouldn't have a clue until in that situation.


----------



## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

After looking into my son's eyes for the 1st time I realised what love was... Id do any thing to keep him safe.

If I had a son with downsyndrome he is still my son... Id feel the same way.

downs is no way serious enough to even consider abortion for me...

that child can grow up and still live a happy life and at the end of the day thats what's important imo.


----------



## puurboi (Feb 16, 2011)

barsnack said:


> would you terminate the baby as your smack use is out of control and you couldn't look after it?


That sentence doesn't even make sense mate, i don;t understand what you are meaning by it?


----------



## Tommy10 (Feb 17, 2009)

very weirdly a m8 of mine posted this today






heart wrenching stuff, were all different


----------

