# So Marks Starting Strength is supposedly really good for maximizing muscle growth....



## MCCoolGuyFresh (May 5, 2014)

Workout A has squat, press, deadlift

Workout B has squat, bench press, deadlift

In a over 7 days it looks like AxBxAxx (x = rest day)

then BxAxAxx

then repeat

And this maximises muscle growth? Would it hurt to include an incline bench press and some chest flies? What about dips? Would I not build more muscle? I guess it is for beginners and they need less rest but damn, the only 2 exercises for upper body are press and bench press. A couple weeks later chin up are included.... That's 3 exercises for upper body. How is that gonna maximise muscle growth?

And why so many rest days??? There's 4 a week.


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## ashmo (Jul 1, 2011)

Where are arms???


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## big (Sep 14, 2004)

The routine is not a hypertrophy routine. It is a strength routine aimed at those who will still make good progress from linear progression.

The idea is to take beginner lifters and get them benching 3 plates, squatting 4 plates and deadlifting 5 plates as quickly (but sustainably given a normal adult lifestyle) as possible.

Because of the over-eating you will get hypertrophy of course.

It is a solid routine, tried and tested, to give a good foundation over the first couple of years, such that people can then build from there (either running a hypertrophy style routine from there, or a more specific/advanced strength routine).


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Plenty of people training 3 days a week mate. In fact I'd say the majority of people actually getting results are training either 3 or 4 days a week (not saying 5 days a week isn't gonna work, just saying overall it's no better than less days a week for most people).

Also notice it's called *Starting* Strength. It's for beginners, and beginners will respond to minimalist training. I'm definitely not one of those muppets that lurk the beginner sections of various forums, waiting to recommend Starting Strength (or the hugely overrated - and overvolumed - ICF 5x5) to every pr**k and his dog and I did neither, but there's no denying that Starting Strength is a program that will work for pretty much all complete beginners due to their muscles being untrained. Once you've got some experience and you stop responding so well, then you might have to up the ante.

Always remember though mate, more training does not equal more results.


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## MCCoolGuyFresh (May 5, 2014)

If it's for strength then i guess it makes sense.

But I've heard people say it's best for building muscle as fast as possible.

"Gain 31lbs LBM in 11 weeks"

-- Mark Rippletoe

"As far as who should do a SS type program, someone who is young, in perfect health, and whose goal is to get big and strong as fast as possible."

-- Scooby

Are these people wrong?


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## MCCoolGuyFresh (May 5, 2014)

Did you get that from his book?

You can see the pdf on google, the workout is on chapter 8

i think yours is just a different variation.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

big said:


> The routine is not a hypertrophy routine. It is a strength routine aimed at those who will still make good progress from linear progression.
> 
> The idea is to take beginner lifters and get them benching 3 plates, squatting 4 plates and deadlifting 5 plates as quickly (but sustainably given a normal adult lifestyle) as possible.
> 
> ...


Concur - it's not a hypertrophy specific routine as one would expect to see designed per se - but I would far more emphasise the significant hypertrophy that will inevitably occur using SS to get to 3/4/5


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## MCCoolGuyFresh (May 5, 2014)

MCCoolGuyFresh said:


> If it's for strength then i guess it makes sense.
> 
> But I've heard people say it's best for building muscle as fast as possible.
> 
> ...


Morning bump!


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## KRSOne (Jul 31, 2011)

MCCoolGuyFresh said:


> Morning bump!


find something. do it for a few months. if it works-great. if not, adjust.

eat lots. sleep lots. train hard.


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## Robbie789 (Sep 6, 2012)

SS routines are for beginners, they teach you to get your compound form nailed and give you a semi-decent level of strength that can be carried over to different and more advanced training styles, be it hypertrophy or strength.

They're not designed to give an experienced lifter much in the way of mass gains, but beginners will see a difference because they're just starting out.

I did stronglifts 5x5 for about 14 weeks and my squat went from 90kg x2 to 120kg 5x5, I gained inches on my thighs and learned how to squat deep, I would definitely recommend it.


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## SK50 (Apr 7, 2013)

MCCoolGuyFresh said:


> *Are these people wrong?*
> 
> "Gain 31lbs LBM in 11 weeks"
> 
> -- Mark Rippletoe


Wrong. This will never, ever happen. Even with drugs. If he really said that, I am disappointed if he has resorted to sales spiel to sell what is a quality programme.



MCCoolGuyFresh said:


> "As far as who should do a SS type program, someone who is young, in perfect health, and whose goal is to get big and strong as fast as possible."
> 
> -- Scooby


Right. Minus the "young". It works for all ages.


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## GaryMatt (Feb 28, 2014)

Merkleman said:


> I think you can gain 31lbs in 11 weeks, but it won't all be muscle.
> 
> Nah, a writeup on a forum.
> 
> ...


Post it. I'm all-in on th 31 lbm lbs in 11 weeks. Fvvvvvvvvck yes.

This was done with 5x5's? Post it. I need it.


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## Sigma (Apr 13, 2014)

Newbies probably ain't gonna gain **** doing a more advanced 5x5 like madcows unless you're a genetic freak.

It isn't a hypertrophy specific routine, but Rip himself said that muscle growth is a crucial factor for strength gain in linear progression programme like his.

That being said, he doesn't like bodybuilding and really refuses to associate with anything other than strength. The training requires you to eat big and become by, most bb standards - fat. He doesn't care one bit for a lean core, in fact he calls it 'abfaggotry'.


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## MCCoolGuyFresh (May 5, 2014)

You can read the book online.

htt p://ar chive.4chon.net/e du/20963 /src_Sta rting%20Strength%20-%20Rippetoe,%20Mark.pdf

It doesn't include dips or bent over rows in the workout. Chin ups are added after a couple of weeks.


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## Rykard (Dec 18, 2007)

can't get the link to work (i have removed the spaces) could you pm me the link?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MCCoolGuyFresh said:


> Would it hurt to include an incline bench press and some chest flies?


For the purposes the routine is intended, yes. It would detract from the primary aim of people new to trainng learning and progressing in the major compound lifts.

The Kindle version of Starting Strength is only about £6.50 from Amazon and is well worth the modest outlay for it's thorough coverage of how to squat and deadlift properly.

As for gains on this programme, the following is what Mark Rippetoe himself has to say (including what I would assume is an extreme example):

http://startingstrength.com/index.php/site/article/the_novice_effect

http://www.startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?p=107175

Given his general approach to training I am inclined to think that Mark isn't just making this up. But nor do I expect everyone following following the Starting Strength programme to make gains like this, or even close to it.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

This is a fantastic program and one I have done plenty of times over the years. It really drives squats up especially and adds size


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## MCCoolGuyFresh (May 5, 2014)

Rykard said:


> can't get the link to work (i have removed the spaces) could you pm me the link?


Don't know how PM so I sent it via reputation.

If you google starting strength pdf it should come up...


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

Ultrasonic said:


> For the purposes the routine is intended, yes. It would detract from the primary aim of people new to trainng learning and progressing in the major compound lifts.
> 
> The Kindle version of Starting Strength is only about £6.50 from Amazon and is well worth the modest outlay for it's thorough coverage of how to squat and deadlift properly.
> 
> ...


Second link... wow... that guy looks terrible. The amount of denial the other posters seem to have about it is laughable.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Sway12 said:


> Second link... wow... that guy looks terrible. The amount of denial the other posters seem to have about it is laughable.


Totally agree, he seriously needs to cut!


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Ultrasonic said:


> Totally agree, he seriously needs to cut!


He does need to cut but he added a fair lot of LBM, if the figures are correct the results are outstanding


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

36-26 said:


> He does need to cut but he added a fair lot of LBM, if the figures are correct the results are outstanding


How do you know it was lean? Looks like 100% fat to me, guy looks horrendous. There is not caring about bf% and then there is that...


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Sway12 said:


> How do you know it was lean? Looks like 100% fat to me, guy looks horrendous. There is not caring about bf% and then there is that...


Rippetoe measured his bodyfat and got about 20% which looks about right in that pic. Your squat doesn't increase by that much just gaining fat. He gained fat obviously but a lot of muscle too according to Rippetoe


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## Rykard (Dec 18, 2007)

MCCoolGuyFresh said:


> Don't know how PM so I sent it via reputation.
> 
> If you google starting strength pdf it should come up...


many thanks


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

36-26 said:


> Rippetoe measured his bodyfat and got about 20% which looks about right in that pic. Your squat doesn't increase by that much just gaining fat. He gained fat obviously but a lot of muscle too according to Rippetoe


His legs dont look decent at all, I'm sorry but I would wager that the majority of that weight is fat, no doubt about it.

If thats a decent transformation by SS standards then that is pathetic.

Once again, why do people who have the best physiques usually train with high volume splits and NOT routines like SS? Probably for this very reason.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Sway12 said:


> His legs dont look decent at all, I'm sorry but I would wager that the majority of that weight is fat, no doubt about it.
> 
> If thats a decent transformation by SS standards then that is pathetic.
> 
> Once again, why do people who have the best physiques usually train with high volume splits and NOT routines like SS? Probably for this very reason.


SS is not promoted as a pure body building routine. But as I wrote when I posted the links above, I am very much inclined to believe the numbers posted by Mark Rippetoe, along with the body fat levels. That guy has gained a serious amount of muscle from his starting point, which was this remember:

http://startingstrength.com/articles/novicezach1.jpg

His lifts would not have all increased as much as they did otherwise.

Another important factor to consider is that 'the people with the best physiques' don't start off as skinny as Zach, have genetics on their side, and use steroids. For such people high volume split routines have a much better chance of working than for Joe Average.

Edit: wish I could work out how to remove the pointless attachment!


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Sway12 said:


> His legs dont look decent at all, I'm sorry but I would wager that the majority of that weight is fat, no doubt about it.
> 
> If thats a decent transformation by SS standards then that is pathetic.
> 
> Once again, why do people who have the best physiques usually train with high volume splits and NOT routines like SS? Probably for this very reason.


That guy just trains for strength, he doesn't care what he looks like he just gained muscle as a by product of his training for strength.


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

I would say for anyone training to look good, size etc, stay far clear of low volume routines like SS. It's not going to give you the physique you want.

I hate seeing beginners asking what routine to run and everyone and his dog replies, eat big and do SS.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Sway12 said:


> I would say for anyone training to look good, size etc, stay far clear of low volume routines like SS. It's not going to give you the physique you want.
> 
> I hate seeing beginners asking what routine to run and everyone and his dog replies, eat big and do SS.


SS is a great routine, it builds size, if you put on fat you ate too much, simple.

You seem to be very argumentative and dismissive of programs you don't like.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

CobraKai said:


> SS is a squat specialist program, you squat 3 times per week and will greatly increase your strength in...... the squat
> 
> For people with aesthetic goals it will most likely leave your upper body lagging.


That's a little simplistic. SS also has people bench and shoulder pressing three times every two weeks, which is more than traditional bodybuilding splits do. Plus of course a programme being squat-centric is generally a good idea for natural trainees since the exercise likely stimulates the greatest increase in testosterone and HGH.

The key thing though is that the rep range is targeted at the strength end of the spectrum, so you would expect more myofibrillar than sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, and therefore less overall size increase compared to a more bodybuilding focused routine. Whether or not a trainee who initially used SS and then switched to a BB routine might ultimately obtain greater size than one who exclusively followed higher rep range training is a seperate debate.


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