# Dave palumbo diet opinion



## hilly

I am just wondering who if any1 has tried dave palumbo's keto diet and what what sort of results you had with it and if you would rate it.

I carb cycles last year and had good results but have never tried a keto diet like this so i am debating about trying it out.

all input is appreciated

hilly


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## hilly

thnks mate it appeals to me as i dont mind the 45 - 60mins cardio am and the diet seems pretty easy to follow while im at college etc.


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## Kezz

anyone got a link to it??


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## 3752

i have used it myself and on some of my athletes if done correctly it is an amazing diet


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## Kezz

Cheers Vince


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## Kezz

http://www.intensemuscle.com/33298-what-24lb-loss-36-hours-looks-like.html?highlight=skip+day

what do you recon to this??


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## Guest

Vince said:


> I followed that guy's prep last year on MD as he was doing Palumbo's diet.
> 
> He's saying now(http://www.intensemuscle.com/33298-what-24lb-loss-36-hours-looks-like-5.html?highlight=skip+day) that he was suffering but he forgot to mention he had to come down from 245lbs to 155lbs competition weight, now he finds this new diet easier cos he's leaner all year round.
> 
> Sorry for the fftopic:


 Agreed, that board is 99% filled with tiny **** poor guys who like to talk like they are as knowlagable as Palumbo ext.

As far as that carb up thing the guy does i doubt gaining 25lb of water once per week and then losing it is overly healthy, sounds a lot more like an excuse to eat the way he became an emense fat **** 

Dave P diet is the only diet that i have been able to follow correctly and i love it about to start it my self.


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## walks

Vince said:


> http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20


Is there a thread anywhere that outlines the basics of this diet?

Ive looked on MD and all i can find is a 500 page thread with bits of the diet all the way through it

Cheers


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## hilly

vince or others do you no if you can have veg or salad with the 3 solid meals

for instance mushroom with my omelete in the morning or salad with dinner


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## hilly

thnks mate ill keep that in mind. i see he does advocate protein/veg meals or days are these for later on in the diet when fat loss slows.

did you just do protein and fat right the way thru or did you involve this technique as well?

also i couldnt find it on there but how long can you stay on this diet as i am looking to compete in may and am debating about starting 5th jan do you think thats to long mate?


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## LiftHeavy

i thinking of starting this diet in jan 1st until march 1st and going to do 30mins cardio before breakfast then in the evening before the doing weights another 1 hour cardio.

do u think this will be too much cardio im looking to lose 2 stone?


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## hilly

it depends on weight loss i reckon mate. im guna start the diet but keep cardio to a minimum until i stop loosing weight then ill increase the cardio and go from their. im eating between 3500 and 4000 cals aty the min so this diet alone should be enough to drop some weight for the first couple of weeks at least


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## LiftHeavy

i think i will just do the evening cardio and when the weight starts to slow ill add am cardio in also to reach my goal.


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## Brizo

A summary of it here - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=5899101http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/losing-weight/46432-dave-palumbo-diet-opinion-2.html]

Looks interesting I may give this a go next year


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## LiftHeavy

i am looking to start this diet in jan however i am allergic to nuts so cannot eat the nuts are have the natural peanut butter? Do you no what i could use instead of the nuts?


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## LiftHeavy

thanks vince, i will use the light mayo with omega 3 and also extra virgin olive oil. I will also do only am cardio, then when the weight slows add cardio in before my weight training.

How does this diet look like? i will be drinking alot of water and green tea through the day

Meal 1: 6 whole organic free range eggs scrambled, 250ml pure orange juice multi vitamin and omega 3, 6, 9 fish oil supp

Meal 2: 40g Whey protein semi skimmed milk

Meal 3: 240g Tuna 2 tablespoons extra light mayo

*****************TRAIN*******************

Meal 4:: 40g Whey protein with water 1banana

Meal 5: 200g Chicken breast, green beans + broccoli, 1 tablespoon extra virgin oil

Meal 6: 120g cottage cheese + 1 banana


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## walks

boner said:


> thanks vince, i will use the light mayo with omega 3 and also extra virgin olive oil. I will also do only am cardio, then when the weight slows add cardio in before my weight training.
> 
> How does this diet look like? i will be drinking alot of water and green tea through the day
> 
> Meal 1: 6 whole organic free range eggs scrambled, 250ml pure orange juice multi vitamin and omega 3, 6, 9 fish oil supp
> 
> Meal 2: 40g Whey protein semi skimmed milk
> 
> Meal 3: 240g Tuna 2 tablespoons extra light mayo
> 
> *****************TRAIN*******************
> 
> Meal 4:: 40g Whey protein with water 1banana
> 
> Meal 5: 200g Chicken breast, green beans + broccoli, 1 tablespoon extra virgin oil
> 
> Meal 6: 120g cottage cheese + 1 banana


well i spent the last 4-5 hours reading through that thread on MD. Some great info on there but it does take some digging out.

As for the diet above, from reading the thread Dave say no carbs at all so that would rule out your bananna, i also noticed he said no cottage cheese or avacado due to the carbs.

Seems the only carbs you want are the trace amounts in the peanut butter.

i found this podcast with the man himself explaning the diet

http://www.superhumanradio.com/rss/2008/SHR_Show_230.mp3

And theres some info here

http://www.leanbulk.com/forum/nutrition-diet/3549-dave-palumbo-contest-cut-diet.html

TBH im surprised MD havent done a nice artical on there site outlining this diet. It took digging through 2 500+ page threads to find out some info on it


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## Guest

walks said:


> TBH im surprised MD havent done a nice artical on there site outlining this diet. It took digging through 2 500+ page threads to find out some info on it


 If you look harder through the site there is at least once article purely on the diet.

6 meals per day 1.5 grams protein and .5 grams fat per lb of body weight no carbs besides trace carbs and even those can not add up to over 30 grams per day. 1 cheat meal per week. End of story, the beauty is the simplicity dont over think it.


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## LiftHeavy

is it ok to have 3 shakes a day and 3 whole meals a day?

con since im allergic to nuts wot sides should i have with 200g of chicken? Any good fiber recommendations

And when im having 2tins of tuna its ok to have some extra light mayo with omega 3?

Is it bad to eat so many eggs a day eg 12?


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## LiftHeavy

thanks vince, im just trying to get the diet nailed so i no what im doing. Im looking to start jan 1st and run for 8-12 weeks.

Is it ok to eat 12whole eggs a day? If i have 6 for first meal and 6 for last?

Meal 1. 6whole orgainc free range eggs scrambled. multi vit, 1 fish oil supp

Meal 2. 40g Whey protein 1tbl spoon extra virgin olive oil, 1 psyllium husk

Meal 3. 240g Tuna 1 table spoon extra light omega 3 mayo, 1 fish oil supp

Meal 4. 40g Whey protein 1tbl spoon extra virgin olive oil, 1 psyllium husk

Meal 5. 200g chicken breast 50g green beans 1tbl spoon extra viring olive oil, 1 fish oil supp

Meal 6. 6whole egg orgaince free range eggs scrambled

Should the eggs im eating be all whole are 4 whole 2 whites?

I will be drinking green tea is this ok 2 cups a day?

What is the primose oil for?

Sorry for keep going on just i want to do it correct to get the best results. Thanks guys


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## LiftHeavy

thanks vince looks like ive got it sorted just waiting on jan to start. What does the eve primrose oil do? for meal 5 i could replace sometimes with steak or mackeral with green salad. would it be ok to add some mushroom and red onion to my eggs in the mornin to make an omlete?


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## Guest

boner said:


> thanks vince, im just trying to get the diet nailed so i no what im doing. Im looking to start jan 1st and run for 8-12 weeks.
> 
> Is it ok to eat 12whole eggs a day? If i have 6 for first meal and 6 for last?
> 
> Meal 1. 6whole orgainc free range eggs scrambled. multi vit, 1 fish oil supp
> 
> Meal 2. 40g Whey protein 1tbl spoon extra virgin olive oil, 1 psyllium husk
> 
> Meal 3. 240g Tuna 1 table spoon extra light omega 3 mayo, 1 fish oil supp
> 
> Meal 4. 40g Whey protein 1tbl spoon extra virgin olive oil, 1 psyllium husk
> 
> Meal 5. 200g chicken breast 50g green beans 1tbl spoon extra viring olive oil, 1 fish oil supp
> 
> Meal 6. 6whole egg orgaince free range eggs scrambled
> 
> Should the eggs im eating be all whole are 4 whole 2 whites?
> 
> I will be drinking green tea is this ok 2 cups a day?
> 
> What is the primose oil for?
> 
> Sorry for keep going on just i want to do it correct to get the best results. Thanks guys


 Forget green tea and all that stuff for a few weeks.

Same goes with cardio.

I have been on my keto contest diet now for 3 days and i have lost 10lb (tons of water) if i had added cardio in my body would have gone through too much of a shock.

What is one fish oil cap meant to do? Today i have had 40 grams of fish oil already :lol:

What are your stats this is what determines your protein and fat intake.


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## LiftHeavy

how much fish oil would be needed each day con? I was 245lbs (17.4stone) 3months ago i have now got that down to 210lb (15stone) bf 22% im 6ft 1 i am looking to lose another 21lbs (1.5stone)

So going to go on this diet for 8-12weeks starting in jan. I will be doing light cardio before breakfast and doing weight training 4 day split. Once the weight slows i will add cardio in my evening session


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## Guest

boner said:


> how much fish oil would be needed each day con? I was 245lbs (17.4stone) 3months ago i have now got that down to 210lb (15stone) bf 22% im 6ft 1 i am looking to lose another 21lbs (1.5stone)
> 
> So going to go on this diet for 8-12weeks starting in jan. I will be doing light cardio before breakfast and doing weight training 4 day split. Once the weight slows i will add cardio in my evening session


 I would go with 30 grams for six weeks and see how your body reacts.


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## Kezz

whats the score with the coffee, i am a caffeine addict :-(


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## Kezz

Greekgoddess said:


> As you say Con - the great thing about this diet is the simplicity.
> 
> If anyone can help me with the following questions before I start the diet I would be really grateful! Believe it or not, its not actually a question about any of the food......
> 
> I have read the diet itself and the comments on it. At the beginning he states that we need to keep stimulants low while on the diet, but later he says that he will INCREASE fatburners ie (clen etc) when he comes to a sticking point in the diet. Does this mean that he is taking some fatburners from the beginning? I currently take Lipo6 original formula three times a day and they give me terrific energy levels, even on low carbs.
> 
> The second question I have is also about stimulants with the diet! He mentions a max of two coffees a day (at the moment I only have one anyway) which is fine. But he also mentions green tea and diet drinks being okay. Many diet drinks and green tea are stimulants in themselves. Should I have them or not with the diet?
> 
> If anyone can give me some idea on these I would rep them and they would have my eternal thanks.


 i think he may mean just start using the stimulants as you get used to the diet... but then says stimulant free is ok, so are the stimulant ones better than stimulant free??

When i start this diet in jan i wont be using any fatburners etc for about 3 weeks


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## hilly

i took it as stimulants he means eph etc. clen i believe he advocates using it for 12 weeks starting at say 40mcg a week and increasing the dose by 20mg every 2 weeks. continously something i also am going to try.


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## DB

Very interesting

Vince & Con, a couple of questions if u don't mind?

Veg- does fibrious carbs count? so zero veg for the whole diet?

Cheat meal? anything goes I am guessing?

so at 245lbs, i should be having

367g pro- 1468

122g fat - 1102

0 carb

2570 cals sounds brutal to diet on?

ED with a cheat meal once a week,


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## clarkey

I agree Baz it does seem brutal but would be interesting to try..When working out your values of protein and fat do you need to change this on a regular basis as your body weight will be decreasing?..


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## DB

clarkey said:


> I agree Baz it does seem brutal but would be interesting to try..When working out your values of protein and fat do you need to change this on a regular basis as your body weight will be decreasing?..


I read abit where dave says decreasing cals is th elast thing u do..

1st - up the cardio

2nd - up the fat burners

3rd - if u must lower cals..

but yes does sound interesting.. he guys hardly ever come in fat do they!

Love the fact its only 3-4 meals the rest is shakes


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## clarkey

DB said:


> I read abit where dave says decreasing cals is th elast thing u do..
> 
> 1st - up the cardio
> 
> 2nd - up the fat burners
> 
> 3rd - if u must lower cals..
> 
> but yes does sound interesting.. *he guys hardly ever come in fat do they*!
> 
> Love the fact its only 3-4 meals the rest is shakes


I spent a few hours last night looking at his thread on this and its surprising how many guys he works with who follow this diet and to be honest I did not see one that was not peeled. What was interesting is that he only carbs his guys up for 2/3 days on between 30/50 grams of carbs per meal over 6 meal (the 6 same meals as the diet so keeps fat and protein high)


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## DB

yes that is interesting on the carbing up thing..

i'll be honest tho mate.. i struggle to come in full when carbign up and thats with 3 days of 1000g.. i do keep my fat&Pro low on those days..

however when dieting.. if i have a cheat meal FULL of fat i am full as a house.. so i can see his methods... with 110g fat in me every day I honestly cant imagine feeling that bad to be honest...


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## clarkey

Ditto mate, me and Tom spoke about this after the British as I feel I can still come in fuller. Each time I ate a full high carb fatty meal after both my shows I am definetly alot fuller with the same condition. This is one of the reason Dave Palumbo keeps the fat high when carbing up his guys. Might be worth a try mate...


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## DB

clarkey said:


> Ditto mate, me and Tom spoke about this after the British as I feel I can still come in fuller. Each time I ate a full high carb fatty meal after both my shows I am definetly alot fuller with the same condition. This is one of the reason Dave Palumbo keeps the fat high when carbing up his guys. Might be worth a try mate...


yeah for sure mate definately going to try it next time not next year for me tho mate!


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## walks

Vince

I noticed he reccomends a clen + t3 stack on this diet. Now obviously a keto diet and t3 for a natty is just asking for trouble.

Im wondering can this diet be used as laid out by a natty, with the same results

also i notice he reccomends fish + primrose oils, are this in addition to the fats from olive oil ect


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## DB

sorry one more question...

say you normally diet for 10 weeks does Dave recommend a shirter/longer diet using this method?

BTW.. i am assuming being low carb after a few days u actually feel pretty good yes?


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## Guest

DB said:


> Veg- does fibrious carbs count? so zero veg for the whole diet?
> 
> Cheat meal? anything goes I am guessing?
> 
> so at 245lbs, i should be having
> 
> 367g pro- 1468
> 
> 122g fat - 1102
> 
> 0 carb
> 
> 2570 cals sounds brutal to diet on?
> 
> ED with a cheat meal once a week,


 No you dont count fiberous veg just keep your overall carb intake under 30 grams and that includes all sweeteners such as splenda ext.

It is very hard going at first but you adjust after a few shakey days.

Dave puts every one beside very out of shape guys on a 16 week diet.


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## walks

DB said:


> sorry one more question...
> 
> say you normally diet for 10 weeks does Dave recommend a shirter/longer diet using this method?
> 
> BTW.. i am assuming being low carb after a few days u actually feel pretty good yes?


For every log on this diet ive read, everyone says after about 3-4 days you start to feel really good, some even say they feel better than when on carbs.

Most do say that the first 3-4 days you will most likely suffer from headaches until your body gets use to no carbs


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## Guest

To be honest i dont see why this would be the best diet for you DB(not that i know fvck all of course!) just looking at your contest pics your always very lean looking. On the keto diet you do risk becoming a bit stringier which for you is probably a bad idea seeing that your competing with the big boys. Its a great diet for me because i have been coming down from 252lb to 198lb :whistling: so stringyness is cool with me as long as i am in shape and get down to lh class.


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## walks

Vince could you give me some more info on the Pro/veg days.

Ive not come accross those yet in the threads

Cheers


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## Beklet

Vince said:


> The diet for women is a bit different, also women shouldn't carb up.


How so? I've done very low carb before (30g or less) but with higher fats and I felt great generally but lacked strength in the gym. How would I overcome that?


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## SOUTHMAN

im pretty much doing this diet now (will cheat on xmas day and boxing day but thats all i get off work)

im roughly 20%bf how long should i stay on this diet? id like to get very lean ready for a bulker to make some more muscular gains. I was thinking 3-4 months and i should be getting there


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## Beklet

Cheers Vince :thumb:

Lat time, the 30g carbs came from fibrous veg, nuts, olives and the small amounts in eggs and cheese 

I did it for over a month (It was Atkins, effectively) and I felt great, and was sleeping well but I had little energy for lifting heavy. I was told to increase my fats but you can only go so far with that! :laugh:

The only other issue I have is with the lack of veg at every meal, but I think I have a lot more reading to do before I'm ready for this one...

You said the women only have 5 meals a day, but is it worked out the same? 1.5g protein per lb bodyweight etc?

Thanks for taking the time to answer all our questions :thumbup1:


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## DB

with the cheat meal probably incorporationg 300g carbs how much does this effect the ketosis? and your overall feeling Vince?


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## the_pit_bull

Has anyone got an example of this diet? The previous links arent working for me.

Ive just googled it and found this...

MEAL #1 6 whole eggs

MEAL #2 SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 tablespoon of Peanut Butter

MEAL #3 "Lean Protein Meal": 8 oz chicken

MEAL #4 SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 tablespoons of Peanut butter

MEAL #5 6 whole eggs

MEAL #6 SHAKE: 50g Whey with 1 tablespoon all natural peanut butter

Is this similar to what you guys have got in mind? You are all mentioning veg, and theres none in that one i found! Should i add veg to the above?

How long would you use this diet to cut for?

I wouldnt mind giving it a go next year.

Cheers

Gaz


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## SD

Priced up the diet for the 250lb man example using Sainsburys online. Expensive food to say the least was £72.20 for one weeks worth. Main expense was the omega 3 eggs, £11.50 for the week, the other egg meal (meal6) used normal eggs, they were slightly cheaper at nearly £10, chicken was about £20 for the cheap bulk frozen stuff.

I couldnt afford this diet right now lol and I would defo need a freezer or at least a fridge (I have neither....seriously!) thank god its winter :laugh:

SD


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## the_pit_bull

Instead of the OMEGA-3 Eggs, couldnt normal eggs be used, and take an omega-3 supplement in conjunction?

Gaz


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## SD

the_pit_bull said:


> Instead of the OMEGA-3 Eggs, couldnt normal eggs be used, and take an omega-3 supplement in conjunction?
> 
> Gaz


I am pretty certain it would be ok, depends on how much EPA/DHA is in the egg. Not sure if its listed on the packaging. It wont actually save more than a couple of pounds anyway.

Damn expensive diet, unless you have a cheaper source of meat. Btw the price I gave above didnt include protein powder, Omega 3 caps or psyllium husk. I think your looking at nearly a oner a week!

SD


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## DB

i'm sure you're not right SD mate.. it doesn't seem to be that expensive imo similar to a normal show diet which for me is cheaper than normal eating


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## Kezz

prob about 45 a week


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## SD

DB said:


> i'm sure you're not right SD mate.. it doesn't seem to be that expensive imo similar to a normal show diet which for me is cheaper than normal eating


I priced all the food listed on the thread from sainsburys, I chose the cheapest option available for each one and thats the price I got. The chicken and eggs alone are over £40, but there was some guesswork on the chicken as its frozen weight was 1 kg, so post cooking who knows what it would weigh. With the intention of ending up with 230g each day, I priced up on 2kg of frozen chicken breast (the cheapest). The other £32 was easily made up by the veg (asparagus is well expensive), PB etc.

I think the meridian PB is cheaper than whole earth if bought in bulk but its the meat/eggs that you need to make the saving on.

SD


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## Bulldozer

I spend over £100 on food a week anyway lol. Food has gone up a lot lately mind.

Does anyone know what DP bulking diet looks like?


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## SD

Greekgoddess said:


> I was just thinking of looking up the carb values for other veggies so that I could have lots of variety. Most of our veg here are organic and there is a huge range to choose from. We have about 20 varieties of spinach and green leaves!
> 
> I noticed you said about pro/fat days then pro/veg days for the girls. Is there a different amount of carbs on the pro/veg days or is it the same?
> 
> I am going to enjoy this diet, low carb suits me and I can get loads of top quality olive oil free as it is produced in the village where I live.
> 
> Thanks


You gotta love the mediteranean diet!! All you need is a chicken farm and this diet will be cheap as chip!

Would like to know the difference between the two days also.

SD


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## MissBC

This looks VERY interesting, going to grab coffee and my next meal and im going to settle in a read about it!!


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## supercell

The DP diet is a good approach IMO for the later stages of a diet.

I am keener in the early stages to keep a balance of macros in and then for the last 3-4 weeks add in something akin the the DP keto diet.

It was protein and veg that basically got me into my condition this year but was only used at around 2-3 weeks out once we needed to move to another level.

On a side note I just really did PV for the last 3 weeks, no fats at all with a refeed meal every 7 days, last one at 10 days out.

For me personally, I work best with carbs but for extreme conditioning and for a short period of time I think its results are incredible. My body was literally changing every day. On my dvd it shows me posing at 3.5 weeks out just before it was employed. Then take a look at the last chapter (showtime) where I am posing in the gym 1 week out. This was just 19 days later but the difference even shocks me.

That is the power of PV but with protein at 400g + to avoid too much catabolism.

J


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## Guest

Vince said:


> Fair enough James...altho there's a difference, you've been in condition, probably sub 8%, for more than a year, not really a run of the mill situation for us normal ppl getting ready for a show
> 
> Obviously doing just pro/veg for such a long time the amount of pro must be increased as the body won't be able to rely on fats.


 If only we were all so lucky... ok dedicated

It all depends on the approach i mean James has literally gained muscle into a show and stayed a similar weight.

Some one like me and other fellow fattys:rolleyes: are starting 50lb over contest weight so this approach is the best.

The diet looks odd at first and when you read about so many "gurus" who fault the diet you really have to be determined to carry it through.

It also depends on the look your trying to achieve. Yes Libratory did look a bit "flatter" than he has in the past and yes Guy did probably drop several lb of lean muscle to make middle weights but both were the hardest guys on stage and both did walk away with their pro cards.

Yes you do have guys on his diet who turn up looking bad (i forget his name but one guy in lh, he came top 15 or some thing and looked much worse than normal and he sat in front of me after talking with Vic M and he cursed the diet) Which makes me believe if your already very lean with a fast metabolism as many african/dominicans seem to be blessed with (he was dominican) then this diet may just not be right for you.

One really big point i have to state about this diet is, if you have blood pressure like i do when trying to keep my weight close to 250lb ie 160/85 3 days on this diet took my bp to 140/80 and a couple more days took it into the normal range. This is purely due to losing a ton of carb enduced water.

I also want to point out the training/cardio difference. James i know from reading his journal a "few" times does pretty hard intense cardio, on the keto diet this would be bad. The training also has to be lower volume with lower reps or else you will be going catabolic. So it depends on your life style if you have time to schedule two work outs per day like a lot of guys do then great do carb cycling or some thing, however if you are very busy keto will work better. Finally the meals are all the same so its very little work, if your in class like me you dont have to worry about eating a whole load of stuff because a good protein shake with fish oil and fiber will do the job.

Can any one tell i have been mentally preparing my self for this diet:lol:


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## walks

What were the reccomended Mgs for the omega 3 and primrose oil?

I read about them but cant find them now


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## walks

Vince said:


> 1000mg 3 x day Fish Oil
> 
> 1000mg 3 x day Evening Primrose Oil


Cheer vince.

Just come across some of your posts in that thread.


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## barcz69

for this keto diet would you just instantly drop ur carbs form say 350g-400g a day down to 30g or would u ween ur carbs down? cheers


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## LiftHeavy

would be ok dropping the carbs to 50 for a week then try 30 imo


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## Bulldozer

barcz69 said:


> for this keto diet would you just instantly drop ur carbs form say 350g-400g a day down to 30g or would u ween ur carbs down? cheers


I would just drop the carbs right down, your loose a **** load of water weight to start.


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## jassdhali

With regard to the red meat meal - I take it as fat is required Lean mince would be a no no??

Vince would this be benefical to someone running at 30% bf?


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## SD

jassdhali said:


> With regard to the red meat meal - I take it as fat is required Lean mince would be a no no??
> 
> Vince would this be benefical to someone running at 30% bf?


If you used lean mince you would just need to replace the lost fat with olive oil to maintain the macro ratios. I think the red meat cuts are all lean anyway.

SD


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## BIG-UNC

jassdhali said:


> With regard to the red meat meal - I take it as fat is required Lean mince would be a no no??
> 
> good question i was gonna ask


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## barcz69

Yea but surely if you just dropped carbs form 350-400g instantly down to 0g your energy levels and strenght would be totally depleted?


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## hackskii

Bump..............


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## LiftHeavy

does anyone know the breakdown of this diet how much kcals it is?


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## hackskii

Measuring calories?

Or measuring the person doing a keto diet not feeling as hungry?


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## LiftHeavy

Meal 1. 5 whole organic free range eggs scrambled. Multi vit, 1 fish oil supp+1 eve primrose oil

Meal 2. 40g Whey protein 1tbl spoon extra virgin olive oil, 1 psyllium husk

Meal 3. 240g Tuna 1 table spoon extra light omega 3 mayo, 1 fish oil supp, 1 eve primrose oil

Meal 4. 40g Whey protein 1tbl spoon extra virgin olive oil, 1 psyllium husk

Meal 5. 200g chicken breast 50g green beans 1tbl spoon extra virgin olive

Oil, 1 fish oil supp

Meal 6. 5 whole egg organic free range eggs scrambled, 1 eve primrose oil or same meal 2

im looking at giving this a go and wondering what is the breakdown of it like how many kcals n total?


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## hackskii

boner said:


> Meal 1. 5 whole organic free range eggs scrambled. Multi vit, 1 fish oil supp+1 eve primrose oil
> 
> Meal 2. 40g Whey protein 1tbl spoon extra virgin olive oil, 1 psyllium husk
> 
> Meal 3. 240g Tuna 1 table spoon extra light omega 3 mayo, 1 fish oil supp, 1 eve primrose oil
> 
> Meal 4. 40g Whey protein 1tbl spoon extra virgin olive oil, 1 psyllium husk
> 
> Meal 5. 200g chicken breast 50g green beans 1tbl spoon extra virgin olive
> 
> Oil, 1 fish oil supp
> 
> Meal 6. 5 whole egg organic free range eggs scrambled, 1 eve primrose oil or same meal 2
> 
> im looking at giving this a go and wondering what is the breakdown of it like how many kcals n total?


How much water? 

Keto diet with psyllium, without water is not a good idea...........

The more water the better, for many reasons, with exception.


----------



## LiftHeavy

i will be drinking water with all my meals and the shakes will be made with water also and i usually drink 2 liters of water in the gym, so will be around 6 liters of water each day. I am looking at this diet but its quite expensive with all the organic omega eggs and meat and 3 shakes each with all the other supps :-(


----------



## DB

barcz69 said:


> Yea but surely if you just dropped carbs form 350-400g instantly down to 0g your energy levels and strenght would be totally depleted?


yes but so would dropping carbs from 350-100g

when your brain switches your body into ketosis you wont notice the stregth and energy loss...

i went into ketosis on my depletion and felt fantastic to be honest.. far better then when on low carbs


----------



## oaklad

just thought id add this to this thread its kind of a summary of dave palumbos thread that i copied as found it interesting. sorry its a bit long

The premise of the diet is high protein (about 1- 1 1/2 gram per pound), moderate fat (about 1/2 g per lb) and low low carbs (no direct sources of carbs). During this diet, the brain goes into ketosis (it uses ketone bodies for energy-- fats) and thus the energy requirements by the body can almost all be supplied by fats (which you'll be taking in plenty of). The only activity that uses carbs will be the weight workout which may use 40grams per workout. You will get these 40g indirectly through the foods you'll be eating. As a backup, the cheat meal you'll be having once per week will provide a storehouse of glycogen (glucose) in case of emergency. So, you see, very little gluconeogenesis in the liver will be occurring. If we keep cortisol low (by

restricting STIMULANTS) we'll ensure that muscle is spared!

HAVE YOUR CHEAT MEAL ON THE SAME DAY EVERY WEEK, last meal of the

day so you dont cheat again.

Fiber helps burn fat! Everyone should take fiber 2x per day. Fiber actually helps increase the absorption of calcium.

When following my diet plan (which includes getting your brain into ketosis), there can be NO starchy carbs eaten!

For a 200lb man:

MEAL #1

5 whole eggs (make sure to buy OMEGA-3 EGGS from the supermarket. They contain virtually NO saturated fat and tons of good OMEGA-3 fats); add another 4 egg whites to this (they don?t need to be the Omega-3 ones; you can use liquid egg whites)

MEAL #2

SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoon of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar)

MEAL #3

"Lean Protein Meal": 8oz chicken with 1/2-cup cashew nuts (almonds, or walnuts)

MEAL #4

SHAKE: 50g Whey Protein with 1 ? tablespoons of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar added)

MEAL #5

"Fatty Protein Meal": 8oz Salmon, Swordfish, or RED MEAT with a green salad (no tomatoes, carrots, or red peppers) with 1 tablespoon of Olive Oil or Macadamia nut oil and vinegar

MEAL #6

SHAKE: 50g Whey with 1 ? tablespoon all natural peanut butter or 4 whole (Omega-3) eggs and 4 extra whites

For a 250lb+ man:

Meal 1 6 whole Omega-3 eggs

Meal 2 8oz chicken with 1/2 cup raw almonds

Meal 3 50g whey with 2 tablespoons all natural peanutbutter

Meal 4 8oz salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tablespoon macadamia nut oil

Meal 5 50 g whey with 2 tablespoon PB

Meal 6 6 whole eggs

Remember, it takes 3-4 days to get into a strong ketosis where your brain is using ketone bodies (fats), instead of carbs, for energy. Be patient.

Many times I'll switch to an alternatiing diet where one day it will be protein/fat......then another protein/vegetables (very little fat). The great thing about the body and fat is that ESSENTIAL FATTY ACIDS can be stored in the muscle for several days, up to 2 weeks......therefore, once an adequate storehouse of Essential Fats are built up, the body can be "tortured" a little and it still won't give up muscle (that's assuming you're still taking in adequate protein. Protein can't be stored).

1oz almonds equals 6g carbs (2 of those grams are fiber) and 2oz equals 12g of carbs.

With the beef meal (any fatty protein meal), you should have the green salad with 1 tablespoon of Olive or Mac oil INSTEAD of the nuts. Only eat the nuts with the LEAN PROTEIN MEAL (chicken, turkey, lean fish)

The best fat sources come from the essential fatty acids-- Omega-6 and Omega-3's. Most of us get plenty of Omega-6s from cooking oils, ect..........however the Omega-3's are harder to get. I recommend WHOLE OMEGA-3 EGGS, FaTTY FISHS like SALMON and SWORDFISH and TUNA and MACKEREL, ALMONDS and WALNUTS have some OMEGA-3's (as well as OMEGA-6s). ANother great fat source is MONOUNSATURATES such as EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL and MACADAMIA NUT OIL.....they aren't essential but they are great for the metabolism (great source of energy) and they are extremely good for your heart.

You're not getting any indirect sources of carbs (just from the 1 spoonful of PB.... you may want to have at least one 1/3cup nuts meal. Remember, Olive or Macadamia nut oil is predominantly a MONOUNSATURATED FAT (good for the heart, but not essential)........ the nuts, and fish oil have the essential fats in them. Also, with regard to FLAX SEED OIL, the OMEGA-3 Fatty Acids found in them (alpha-linolenic acid) has a very poor conversion to DHA and EPA (Essential Omega-3 intermediates) in the HUMAN........therefore, you're much better off taking in FISH OILS (that already contain DHA/EPA) than FLAX SEED OIL.

Once fat loss slows, I always increase cardio first, then I increase the amount of fat burners (clen, cytomel, lipolyze).........After those other methods are exhausted, only then, do I play with the diet.

Always eat BEFORE lifting........never BETWEEN lifting and cardio.

Artificial Sweetners:

The artificial sweetener itself (eg. aspartame, sucralose) wont cause a problem. It's what some companies complex it with. For example, EQUAL and SPLENDA combine their aspartame and sucrolose with 1g of maltodextrin........whereas, in diet drinks, they don't do that. So, diet drinks are okay, SPLENDA and EQUAL must be used in moderation (STEVIA BALANCE is fine though since they use inulin fiber instead of maltodextrin

Forget using:

-MCT's are a waste when you're dieting. If you're gonna use FATS for an energy source, they might as well serve a function in the body. MCTs are useless. They can only serve as a source of energy!

-Arginine is not going to do anything. It will DO something; just not dramatic.

Cardio:

CARDIO should be performed at a low intensity (under 120bpm heartrate). This will ensure that you use FAT as a fuelsource since as your heartrate increase, carbohydrates begin to become the preferred fuel of choice for the body. When on a low carb diet, you're body will break down muscle and turn that into carbs. Remember, Fat CANNOT be changed into carbs. Therefore, for bodybuilding, the rule of cardio should be LONG DURATION, LOW INTENSITY

never do less than 20 min per session

The BOTTOM LINE is that low intensity cardio (while you might need more of it) ensures that fat is utilized and muscle is spared (especially while on my high protein/moderate fat/low carb diety).

Do you feel the treadmill is better for cardio, or is the bike(stationary or recumbent) just as good? As long as the intensity is LOW, it doesn't matter which piece of equipment you use

Q&A:

Q: Is gluconeogenesis inevitable in your diet?

Dave Palumbo: NO

Q: If so do I need to consume more than 1.5 grams of protein per lb of LBM so as not to lose muscle?

Dave Palumbo: The fat spares the protein....when the brain is in ketosis, the carbohydrate requirements are very very low.

Q: How much (percentage) of my protein intake would be turned into glucose (gluconeogenesis)?

Dave Palumbo: Very little (maybe 10%)

Q: What do you think of submersion in cold water as a means of burning bodyfat (thermogenesis)?

Dave Palumbo: HOCUS POKUS!

Q: How about drinking lots of cold water (I think this was even suggested by Elligton Darden) to help lose bodyfat?

Dave Palumbo: RIDICULOUS

Q: Do you think drinking lots of Green Tea is beneficial to fat loss?

Dave Palumbo: Somewhat helpful.

Q: How much is the ideal dosage of Omega 3 for a 220 lb. individual ?

Dave Palumbo: Try to take in about 9g per day

Q: How many Tbs of peanut butter could I have instead of 1/2 cup of cashewnuts?

Dave Palumbo: 2 tablespoons, two tablespoons of Peanut Butter contains 190 calories and 16 grams of fat (so 1.5 tablespoon equals about 12 grams fat) ...whereas......... 2oz (1/3 cup) almonds (about 40 almonds) = 12g fat

Q: I want to add that if I cant find the omega eggs here locally. Can I use international egg whites and just take an omega supplement?

Dave Palumbo: You can get away with 5 whole eggs (regular ones) once a day........not a big deal. You'll be burning up all that fat anyway.

Q: Whats the max cups # of coffee ( no sugar ) can consume on Dave's diet ?

Dave Palumbo: Try to limit to 2 cups per day.......I realize that towards the end of the diet you may need more to help you get through the day.

Q: If you cook tilapia in macadamon nut oil?do you coun't the oil as your fat for that meal! Depends how much you use.

Dave Palumbo: If you just grease the pan with it, no!

Q: what is the protein,carb and fat ratio for offseason

Dave Palumbo: 50% Protein, 25% fat, 25% carbs

Q: and the ratio for contest prep.

Dave Palumbo:60% protein, 30% fat, 10% carbs


----------



## Bulldozer

DB said:


> yes but so would dropping carbs from 350-100g
> 
> when your brain switches your body into ketosis you wont notice the stregth and energy loss...
> 
> i went into ketosis on my depletion and felt fantastic to be honest.. far better then when on low carbs


Same for me. On low carbs i feel ready for bed at 5pm lol and generally groggy.

While deep in ketosis i feel fine, probably feel better than when on high carbs actually. And my strength doesnt suffer much, if any in the gym.


----------



## DRED

i take it skimmed milk is a no go with the protien shakes?

and is syntha 6 and muscle milk ok? :thumb:


----------



## DRED

just looked on the syntha 6 tub and 2 scoops gives;

46 protein

26 carbs

4 fat

with water........if i have this twice a day on the 250lb diet will i bust on the carbs?


----------



## DRED

is there anything to take to stop those eggs binding you up?


----------



## POPPA BEAR

Dred, milk is out, also you'll need a lower carb shake matey.

On the Palumbo diet fibre is advised 2/3 times a day...MP sell psyllium husk pretty cheap.


----------



## DRED

POPPA BEAR said:


> Dred, milk is out, also you'll need a lower carb shake matey.
> 
> On the Palumbo diet fibre is advised 2/3 times a day...MP sell psyllium husk pretty cheap.


cheers mate.....whats a nice shake but low in carbs that dont taste like ****e? :thumbup1:


----------



## POPPA BEAR

I just have unflavoured whey mixed in water with a spoon of pb mate, but i wouldn't say it's great tasting if ya know what i mean ?


----------



## DRED

POPPA BEAR said:


> I just have unflavoured whey mixed in water with a spoon of pb mate, but i wouldn't say it's great tasting if ya know what i mean ?


i have tried the unflavourd stuff and found it pretty rough.....any ideas on protein with no carbs that tastes nice?


----------



## Kezz

isolate would be ok


----------



## DRED

Vince said:


> whey isolate is the lowest in carb


do i buy it plain or flavoured?


----------



## clarkey

DRED said:


> do i buy it plain or flavoured?


Either mate as long as its low carb.


----------



## DRED

clarkey said:


> Either mate as long as its low carb.


cheers mate...i have just found the myprotein page on here....is there isolate ok?


----------



## clarkey

DRED said:


> cheers mate...i have just found the myprotein page on here....is there isolate ok?


Yes mate i personally rate it as good as anything ive used. James L is sponsored by them and used it in his prep.


----------



## hilly

reflex instant whey is also a good choice it has 2g carbs per 40g protein shake. 30 quid for a 2.2kg tub


----------



## DRED

clarkey said:


> Yes mate i personally rate it as good as anything ive used. James L is sponsored by them and used it in his prep.


myprotein it is then...


----------



## thevoice

i was listening to daves radio interview about the diet and he started by saying about how much he and other bodybuilders around that timre would eat to bulk and that he found he grew on much less protein once he started adding more fats into his diet etc

also on his Q and A session he says offseason ratios to be used are -

Q: what is the protein,carb and fat ratio for offseason

Dave Palumbo: 50% Protein, 25% fat, 25% carbs

keep in mind if someone was taking in 300g protein a day on a bulk and thats 50% of there intake leaving 25% for carbs and 25% for fats this would come out at 2400c?

Does that seem to low to bulk at?


----------



## hackskii

Well, he is close, there is a doctor that tested the macro's for performance at 40/30/30

carbs/protein/fats


----------



## Kezz

i grew really well on 200g of protein a day, i dont think you need as much as people say


----------



## Guest

@GreekGoddess: Yes i think the keto diet would be superb for your other half, it normalizes my stage 1 hypertension within a few days.


----------



## hackskii

Kezz said:


> i grew really well on 200g of protein a day, i dont think you need as much as people say


I have said this forever..........Bravo big guy................. :thumb:


----------



## LiftHeavy

i think bulksupplementsdirect.com whey isolate tastes great smooth choc and smooth banna and is low carbs. Im also looking at starting this diet in jan


----------



## DRED

the cheat meal that you have once a week is that on top of what you would normaly have on that day?

cheers guys :thumb:


----------



## thevoice

hackskii said:


> I have said this forever..........Bravo big guy................. :thumb:


SO what about overal calories then, as lets say your taking in 200g of protein a day if thats 40-50% of your overall intake your overal calories arent going to be that high.


----------



## hilly

greekgoddess im sure dave recommends heavy weights low reps in the gym i think i saw rep range of 6-10 over on md.


----------



## Kezz

ah glad its coming together for you


----------



## Guest

DRED said:


> the cheat meal that you have once a week is that on top of what you would normaly have on that day?
> 
> cheers guys :thumb:


 Cheat meal is instead of your last meal.

I believe he states up to 500 grams of carbs but tbh you probably will not be able/want that many as it makes you feel pretty sick and sleepy.

Medium pizza with two alcoholic free beers is what i would normally have.


----------



## hilly

it will most likely be a dominoes for me with some ice cream or summit.


----------



## hackskii

thevoice said:


> SO what about overal calories then, as lets say your taking in 200g of protein a day if thats 40-50% of your overall intake your overal calories arent going to be that high.


200g of protein will not be 40 to 50% of overal cals.

Most dudes would lose too much weight with calorie restrictions that low, and I mean lose weight as in more lean tissue.


----------



## hilly

my overall cals for this diet is looking to be around the 2400-2500 mark. i am running anabolics tho so this should stop me loosing any lean tissue.


----------



## craigyk

Hello all

I started this diet on saturday & was wondering if there is any low carb sauces anybody can recommend that i can put on my chicken or something to go on my eggs. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## Kezz

mayo  spices etc


----------



## POPPA BEAR

Caesar salad dressing goes well, failing that olive oil with vinegar and a little salt and pepper.


----------



## craigyk

How long before a cheat meal? Been as my mrs has organised a chinese meal or new years eve. Wasn't sure if you had to be on diet for a week or 2 first.

Cheers


----------



## Guest

craigyk said:


> How long before a cheat meal? Been as my mrs has organised a chinese meal or new years eve. Wasn't sure if you had to be on diet for a week or 2 first.
> 
> Cheers


 It should be two weeks but IMO seeing that its a special occasion and if she is not preparing for a specific event go ahead and have a cheat meal early.


----------



## POPPA BEAR

2 weeks bro, then 1 a week after that


----------



## walks

craigyk said:


> How long before a cheat meal? Been as my mrs has organised a chinese meal or new years eve. Wasn't sure if you had to be on diet for a week or 2 first.
> 
> Cheers


2 weeks

Did you alot or are you lot following daves fish oil and primrose oil reccomendations?

Ive just spent a few more hours reading the MD thread and i am surprised at the amount of people over there moaning about the diet not working. They then point out that there not following it to the letter.

Not starting it myself for a few weeks but with regards the cheat meal im not going down the junk route for it, im sure you would get better results by keeping the cheat meal a little cleaner


----------



## LiftHeavy

10-14 days i think for a cheat meal not sure tho check with vince or con they prob no


----------



## DRED

i took this of another site:

*Dave Palumbo* <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>


​
I eat 8 times per day (50g protein, 20g fat, 30g carbs per meal).

Pre-contest, I cut the carbs back to 15 grams per meal, and I up the fat to 30g per meal.

Sources of protein include: chicken, fish, lean red meat, whole eggs, and whey protein.

Sources of fat include: olive oil, cashew nuts, almonds, all natural peanut butter, egg yolks, and salmon.

I've actually designed a protein shake called, PALUMBO'S ANBOLIC ELIXIR. It includes a unique protein blend consisting of whey and egg protein complexes with a rich variety of essential fats.

In recent times, my weight gain in the off-season has been minimal. I usually go up to 280lbs (the heaviest) and then, for a contest, I come down to 265lbs. Back in the late 1990's, I used to blow up to a relatively lean 315lbs; however, it was just too uncomfortable.

ref: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson65.htm

When dieting using my HIGH PROTEIN/ MODERATE FAT/ LOW CARB approach, my post workout shake would consist of 50g whey, 30g fat (coming from all natural peanut butter), very low carbs (just whats in the PB). Remember, the brain is not using carbs when in a state of ketosis so carb intake (even after the workout) is unnecessary.

OFFSEASON, my post workout shake consists of 50g whey with 50g Vitargo (i just started using this high molecular weight carbohydrate supplement. It's fantastic. It empties from the stomach faster than dextrose yet causes no bloating)

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On my recommended high protein/moderate fat/low low card diet, your muscle glycogen levels are very low, however, they never get depleted since the only activity that requires glucose (carbs) is WEIGHT TRAINING. And since you probably only require 50g carbs per workout, you'll have no problems since that's just about the amount you'll be taking in per day (from indirect sources-- nuts, peanutbutter, whole eggs, ect). Also, you'll be having a cheat meal once per week which will act to reload glycogen stores.

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ESSENTIAL POLYUNSATURATES:

Omega-3 Fish Oil pills 1000mg 3x per day

Evening Primrose Oil (Omega-6) 1300mg 2x per day

NON ESSENTIAL but HEART HEALTHY

Macadamia Nut oil (Omega-9 monosaturates) 2-3 ablespoons per day

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Meal 1 6 whole Omega-3 eggs

Meal 2 8oz chicken with 1/2 cup raw almonds

Meal 3 50g whey with 2 tablespoons all natural peanutbutter

Meal 4 8oz salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tablespoon macadamia nut oil

Meal 5 50 g whey with 2 tablespoon PB

Meal 6 6 whole eggs

This is typically how i start off most clients diets.........then there's modifications along the way and I have to cater it according to how hte client looks.

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CARDIO should be performed at a low intensity (under 120bpm heartrate). This will ensure that you use FAT as a fuelsource since as your heartrate increase, carbohydrates begin to become the preferred fuel of choice for the body. When on a low carb diet, you're body will break down muscle and turn that into carbs. Remember, Fat CANNOT be changed into carbs. Therefore, for bodybuilding, the rule of cardio should be LONG DURATION, LOW INTENSITY

CARDIO:

I walk on the tredmill at 100bpm (the most) for 30 min (although I hardly ever do cardio). Forge the incline, forget going super fast. Just walk 30 min-90 min (I increase cardio as people get closer to competition) at a leasurely pace.

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Virgin Coconut Oil is a MEDIUM CHAIN SATURATE FAT. Because it's not a long chain fatty acid, it avoids digestion, processing, and the need for a carrier molecule (L-carnitine) to get into the mitochondria to be burned for energy (oxidized). Becuase of this, Coconut oil (and all medium chain fats) have been called the FATLESS FAT. From a health standpoint, its a great immune system stimulator (lots of AIDS patients are now using it for its antiviral properties). We must remember, however, that Coconut Oil is not an essential fat and, in my estimation, is useless when dieting. What it's good for as supplemental calories and fats while on a <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on"><st1laceName w:st="on">MASS</st1laceName> <st1laceType w:st="on">BUILDING</st1laceType></st1lace> program. I used to put one teaspoon in my morning Oatmeal. Give's it some moisture and a nice coconut taste. I wouldn't advise cooking with it however. Stick with the heart healthy monounsaturated fat, MACADAMIA NUT OIL.

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EGG YOLKS:

If you use the OMEGA-3 EGGS that I recommend, you can eat as many whole eggs as you like since most of the saturated fat has been replaced with Heart Healthy Omega-3 Fats.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I recommend 8-10 meals for <st1lace w:st="on"><st1laceName w:st="on">OFFSEASON</st1laceName> <st1laceName w:st="on">MASS</st1laceName> <st1laceType w:st="on">BUILDING</st1laceType></st1lace>. 6 meals for pre-contest dieting. There's no need for more than 6 meals when dieting. I only have TONEY FREEMAN eating 6 meals and he's huge!

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DIET FOR NATURALS:

Everything stays exactly the same. The same principles apply to the body whether on drugs or not. High protein, moderate fat, low carb is the ideal environment for optimal fat burning/muscle preservation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHEY PROTEIN:

Cheap whey protein that tastes good probably has a higher percentage of lactose (milk sugar) in it. I'm lactose intolerant. If i used that whey protein, I would be in the bathroom all night long-- not a pretty sight! My SPECIES BRAND of Whey will be out in the next month or so (I hope). I'm working on a PURE WHEY ISOLATE (no lactose) that actually tastes good. Once I have the formula perfected, I'll release it! For now, you can try the REEVES ULTRA WHEY that i sell on my websit (www.davepalumbo.com). It's one of the best low lactose WHEY PROTEINS i've ever tasted.

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MACADAMIA NUT BUTTER still contains the carbs (unlike pure macadamia nut oil). That is fine if you want to use it in place of all natural peanutbutter (it's actually healthier). When you purchase an all natural PB and you notice that the oil has separated from the rest of the PB, make sure you mix it up before using the stuff. Don't pour off the oil or else you're losing all the good fats.

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Remember, the diet I suggest has all its components in place for a reason. I constantly get questions of whether a person could follow my diet suggestions and use a bit less fat and one or two small carb meals. The truth is, any diet works if there's a logical plan behind it and if you stick to it. If you add some carbs to my diet and take away some fat, it will no longer be my diet. You're changing the conditions and becaues of that, you won't get the same consistent results I get with my clients. If you add carbs, you'll never get your brain into KETOSIS. If your brain isn't in ketosis, it will constantly be searching for CARBS to use as energy. In the absence of carbs, it will turn muscle into carbs. You'll be moody, hungry, and you'll have energy fluctuations all day long. When in ketosis, your brain is using FATS for energy, so carbs become irrelevant to the brain. Energy levels are stable, moods are stable, and hunger is really a non issue. Also, when carbs are eliminated, so is the FAT STORING hormone INSULIN. NO INSULIN, no FAT STORAGE possible. If you have INSULIN release (because you're eating SOME carbs), you'll have a hormonal drive to store fat that you'll be combatting. Once again, If you change the diet, it doesn't work as effectively. Then, you're just left with the same diet that everyone else does. Hope that helps!<o></o>

<o></o>

When you're trying to add mass, you need PROTEIN, and ESSENTIAL FATS to build muscle.......and you need CARBS to be the FUEL SOURCE to make all this happen. When dieting, we're using FAT for the fuel source; that's why it's hard to grow. Remember, the formula never changes. PROTEIN + FAT = MUSCLE. CARBS - GASOLINE

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Carbohydrates cause insulin release which, while being a fat storage hormone, is also an anabolic hormone that helps drive carbs and amino acids into the muscle cell where they are then used for building muscle. Offseason, you NEED insulin to build muscle. Precontest, we're just trying to preserver muscle while maximizing fat loses.

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If you're followin my high protein, moderate fat, no carb diet...........THEN, you CAN NOT take in 50g of VITARGO (even after you train).........PERIOD!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EVENING PRIMROSE OIL:

Contains high quantities of the GOOD essential Omega-6 fat, Gamma Linolenic Acid (GLA). This is the only O-6 fat that lowers inflammation, lowers blood pressure, and lowers cholesterol. It also happens to be a great liver detoxifer and it's great for PMS women. It's also needed for the proper repair of muscle cells (the cell membrane).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO CARB DIET:

When you diet on no carbs, you're brain goes into a state of ketosis whereby it no longer requires glucose for energy. This means your brain will never be at a loss for fuel. This makes for more stable blood sugar levels-- less tiredness, less moodiness, and less irritability. Also, insulin levels will be very low (insulin is a fat storage hormone) and GH levels will be very high. Another thing to consider is that on this diet your body will be receiving adequate levels of good essential fats that it requires on a daily basis. Fats help repair damaged muscle tissue and are necessary for the synthesis of key hormones.

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POST WORKOUT:

(1) Pre-contest: No carbs, No vitargo, No sugar period! Stick with your whey and all natural peanutbutter shake

(2) Offseason: Whey and Vitargo pre-workout. Whey, Vitargo, tablespoon of Macadamia Nut Oil (I love this combo) post-workout.

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PALUMBO DIET:

Watch the FAT FREE cheeses since they all have CARBS..........Remember, carbs, not fat, are the enemy while dieting.

CHEAT MEAL: You should have ONE MEAL per week where you eat what you want. If you have a psychotic appetite, try to limit you cheat meal to about 500g carbs the most (remember, that's the MOST)..........As it gets closer to a show, many times I have to cut out the cheat meal to help the bodybuilder suck out that last bit of stubborn fat.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MY CHEAT MEAL:

For years, I always went to the all you can eat sushi buffet for my cheat meal. Sometimes i finished that off with a non-fat yogurt (ice cream). Nowadays, I'm completely lactose intollerant so no yogurt. I do still go to the sushi buffet. In 2002, I went to the Italian restaurant with my friend DAVE WATSON who i helped for the Nationals that year. We ate everything in site (including a canoli). We both placed 2nd that year (DAVE W in the Heavyweight; Me in the Super HW, behind my man TONY FREEMAN).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for NATURAL SUPPLEMENTS for NATURAL BODYBUILDERS, I suggest the JUICE PLUS, EVENING PRIMROSE OIL (1300mg 2x per day), OMEGA-3 FISH OIL (2000-3000mg per day), 1500mg Coral Calcium per day, and 2000mg MSM 2x per day. Also, make sure to take a fiber supplement (Sugar-free metamucil is good) 2x per day and my non-stimulant based fat burners are excellent: Lipolyze (1 pill 3-5x per day with meals) AND Somalyze (3 pills with your last meal before bed).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

meal 1 6 whole omega-3 eggs

meal 2 8oz of chicken with half cup raw almonds

meal 3 50g whey with 2 tblsp all natural peanut butter

meal 4 8oz of salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tblsp macadamia nut oil.

meal 5 50g whey with 2 tblsp of peanut butter

meal 6 6 whole omega-3 eggs.

BILLY GUNS was nice enough to re-post my sample diet. Remember that that diet is designed for a BIG guy over 230lbs. The quantities of fat will be a little lower for a lighter competitor. Remember, a POST WORKOUT shake will on this diet is the same shake you'd have at any other time of the day. Remember, there's NO CARBS in this diet. So, the shake would be 50g Whey and 1-2 tablespoons of all natural peanutbutter (almond butter)<o></o>

__________________<o></o>

<o></o>


----------



## J.B.

hi, can anyone confirm what the weight in grams or ounces would be when the diet refers to 1 cup or a half cup.

thanks


----------



## walks

J.B. said:


> hi, can anyone confirm what the weight in grams or ounces would be when the diet refers to 1 cup or a half cup.
> 
> thanks


The meat is 8oz uncooked


----------



## J.B.

thanks, i thought as much, but if i want to follow this plan what weight do i use for a cup.

sorry but i have no idea what a cup equates to.

thanks


----------



## DB

J.B. said:


> thanks, i thought as much, but if i want to follow this plan what weight do i use for a cup.
> 
> sorry but i have no idea what a cup equates to.
> 
> thanks


A cup is a measurement of volume matey not weight..

so one cup of sugar will weigh more than one cup of sugar for instance..

check this out

http://www.recipes4us.co.uk/us_cups_to_weight.htm


----------



## J.B.

ahh, great many thanks.

so half cup of almonds = 75g

1 cup of asparagus = 62g

i should of just googled eh..


----------



## hilly

2 weeks you have to be on the diet for before a cheat meal


----------



## POPPA BEAR

GG are you gonna use ketostix to test for ketones or just run with it ? On one hand they can be useful at the start but on the other can be unreliable later on...


----------



## Kezz

cheat meal as in carbs???


----------



## POPPA BEAR

Kezz said:


> cheat meal as in carbs???


Yes mate carb refeed


----------



## Kezz

ah thats cool, i will have a bit of a splurge on chicken and steak etc in the week i cant have carbs...maybe some king prawns in an omlette... mmmmm cant wait lol


----------



## hackskii

Personally I dont feel the cheat meals should consume alot of fats and proteins.


----------



## LiftHeavy

would a chicken curry and rice with chips be to much for the cheat meal?


----------



## hilly

i think the cheat meal you can have literally what ever you want mate. You have the freedom to consume as many carbs as you like in your last meal of the day. i think vince has said he managed 400g of carbs before but wasnt a comfortable experience lol. something i could see myself aiming for at what point haha


----------



## J.B.

Hi, im planning on starting this plan on monday.Everything is in place, going to sort some macadamia oil but until then will be using e.v.o.o. and now im sorted with the cups - weights ratios thats easy to calculate.

I fall under the 250lbs+ plan so my only concern is with the dozen eggs per day.

The only omega 3 eggs i can find in all s/markets locall to me are all the same producer and all retail at £1.64 for 6. So £22.96 per week. Thats alot of money for eggs....

my usuall eggs would cost me £8.40 for the same quantity.

Now i understand the omega 3 eggs reduces the saturated fats i would be taking in and although i dont really concern myself with the sat fats in eggs 12 per day every day does concern me a little.

Can anyone suggest anyway i can keep cost down but maybe keep the sat fats down to, ie would removing the yolks from 4 of the 6 regular type eggs morning and evening be a good idea,

or 6 regular eggs in the morning and then 6 omega 3 eggs in the evening ?

Any ideas or suggestions are greatly appreciated....


----------



## Kezz

have half omega and half normal


----------



## POPPA BEAR

I'm sure it was suggested somewhere to have normal eggs and take o3's to compensate....


----------



## craigyk

I read somewhere that half a cup of almonds is about 60 almonds. Does anyone know if this is right?

Cheers


----------



## walks

with regards the cheat meal dave recommeds you get you protien in first then your carbs.

He also advises you limit the sat fat ect in this meal.

Ive read of people eating a full pizza then bowls of cereal and ice cream. Seems pointless to go complely stupid then expect great results.

A nice spag bol for my cheat meal i think


----------



## hackskii

On a keto diet the fat in eggs is nothing to worry about.


----------



## DRED

J.B. said:


> Hi, im planning on starting this plan on monday.Everything is in place, going to sort some macadamia oil but until then will be using e.v.o.o. and now im sorted with the cups - weights ratios thats easy to calculate.
> 
> I fall under the 250lbs+ plan so my only concern is with the dozen eggs per day.
> 
> The only omega 3 eggs i can find in all s/markets locall to me are all the same producer and all retail at £1.64 for 6. So £22.96 per week. Thats alot of money for eggs....
> 
> my usuall eggs would cost me £8.40 for the same quantity.
> 
> Now i understand the omega 3 eggs reduces the saturated fats i would be taking in and although i dont really concern myself with the sat fats in eggs 12 per day every day does concern me a little.
> 
> Can anyone suggest anyway i can keep cost down but maybe keep the sat fats down to, ie would removing the yolks from 4 of the 6 regular type eggs morning and evening be a good idea,
> 
> or 6 regular eggs in the morning and then 6 omega 3 eggs in the evening ?
> 
> Any ideas or suggestions are greatly appreciated....


I have gone for the omega 3 eggs in the morning and normal eggs at night,and to bring the price of meat down i am getting turkey crowns from the butcher.

as for pork and beef would joints of meat be ok instead of chops and steaks?


----------



## POPPA BEAR

DRED said:


> as for pork and beef would joints of meat be ok instead of chops and steaks?


As long as you weigh it i can't see why not mate


----------



## craigyk

What protein powder is everyone using & how many carbs does it have per serving? Thanks


----------



## LiftHeavy

im using whey isolate bsd its low carbs tastes great.


----------



## DRED

ok as the weight drops do you start cardio or start cutting the food down?

i am starting on the keto diet for the 250lb chappy :thumb:


----------



## J.B.

DRED said:


> ok as the weight drops do you start cardio or start cutting the food down?
> 
> i am starting on the keto diet for the 250lb chappy :thumb:


Im pretty sure the diet is the last thing to alter mate,

ie increase cardio when and if necessary.


----------



## Cap'n Beefy

Virgin Coconut Oil is a MEDIUM CHAIN SATURATE FAT. Because it's not a long chain fatty acid, it avoids digestion, processing, and the need for a carrier molecule (L-carnitine) to get into the mitochondria to be burned for energy (oxidized). Becuase of this, Coconut oil (and all medium chain fats) have been called the FATLESS FAT. From a health standpoint, its a great immune system stimulator (lots of AIDS patients are now using it for its antiviral properties). We must remember, however, that Coconut Oil is not an essential fat and, in my estimation, is useless when dieting. What it's good for as supplemental calories and fats while on a <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on"><st1laceName w:st="on">MASS</st1laceName> <st1laceType w:st="on">BUILDING</st1laceType></st1lace> program. I used to put one teaspoon in my morning Oatmeal. Give's it some moisture and a nice coconut taste. I wouldn't advise cooking with it however. Stick with the heart healthy monounsaturated fat, MACADAMIA NUT OIL.

So, have I got this right - I can continue to enjoy sauces made with coconut oil whilst on this diet, and not include it in the fat total?? :confused1:

Another point of confusion, everyone is talking of 30g carbs daily, Dave P mentions 50g. Did I miss something?? This is a long thread!!

Anywho, day 1 of diet, so far so good!! Hurrah!!


----------



## craigyk

Would boditronics express whey have too many carbs for the protein drink. It has 31g protein 4.9g carbs per serving. Its just that boditronics do the best flavours!!


----------



## walks

On the eggs.

Dave reccomends you use omega 3 eggs for the whole eggs and normal ones for the whites.

On the whey he reccomends isolate because it has 0 carbs, if your taking whey a couple of times a day with 5g of carbs in it then the carbs will start to add up.


----------



## hackskii

Why not eat fatty meat's?

Oh, yah, that is no carbs..................lol

Screw the powders, whole foods are best.

Free range eggs offer 19 times the Omega 3's as store bought eggs.

Processed foods tend to spike insulin more than unprocessed foods.

Fiber is your friend on a keto diet.

Fats too.


----------



## jassdhali

I am starting this in the morning, ratios on paper look like this. 2315 cals 61%P/6%C/33%F @ 230 lbs

Any comments welcome


----------



## hilly

what are/have people used for flavouring their meals. i am using a little soy sauce today any better ideas??


----------



## Cap'n Beefy

Okay, I'm on day 5, and like Con also found, I have lost about 8 pounds, presumably water!! Increased vascularity already!! Liking that!!

Here's the question. If I count all the fats, like blue cheese on my steak, cream in the occasional coffee, can I have it, as boy, is it boring otherwise. I'd mug an old lady for a doughnut right about now, so a minor pleasure, cheese etc is really helpful!! Wodaya thunk??


----------



## LiftHeavy

cap n beefy dont go muggin granny now lol, ther is carbs n all ther and not very productive in the diet jus hold out till ur cheat meal. It will be worth it in the end


----------



## hackskii

Hey beef, cream in your coffee should be heavy cream, not carbs, just fats and low protein.

Blue cheese, its ok too.

Cheese, just fine....

Hell, even bacon is fine.............

Enjoy


----------



## Cap'n Beefy

Oh me god, how pleased am I to hear that!!

Thanks Scott.


----------



## Kezz

some people are saying have a cheat day and some just your last meal..... is there a time limit to eating your last meal ie could you take about 3 hours to eat it to get all the carbs in??


----------



## Cap'n Beefy

How long to see quantifiable results??

I've lost the obligatory water. Woohoo!! I'm doing the cardio, boohoo, and have amazingly got to day 6 of minimal carbs (<50). Just wondered when I should see further weight dropping, as am concerned that fats may be a wee bit too high and obviously want to address this soon as. But if they're not too high, I wanna keep em, for obvious reasons!!

Any thoughts? When should you know?? Ta.


----------



## Kezz

so if eating say 500g of carbs in 1 meal wont bring you out of keto but eating it over say 3 will, i just dont get it, 500g of carbs is still in your body however long it takes it to get in there?


----------



## Kezz

can you eat any amount of green veg as you want, broc etc??


----------



## Beklet

> Oh me god, how pleased am I to hear that!!
> 
> Thanks Scott.


On average, 1oz cheese has 1g carbs, so just factor it into your total carbs.

Double cream also has a small amount of carbs but a bit in your coffee shouldn't be too detrimental, unless you're on 20 cups a day


----------



## Kezz

i think the diet allows for 30g of carbs per day


----------



## LiftHeavy

kezz you cannot eat all the greens u want as that will up the carb count, u r allowed 30g a day but from indirect sources eg not 30g greens measured with one meal


----------



## Kezz

ah right thanks, just small portions a couple of times a day should be fine then??


----------



## hilly

im having 100g broccoli with my dinner and 100g salad with my tea. 3/4 small mushrooms with breakfast. these are all under 2g carbs each.


----------



## invisiblekid

Broccoli has around 7g carbs per 100g (uncooked).

I've been having protions of around 75g. I now intend to reduce this.


----------



## POPPA BEAR

IMO things such as broc, spinach and salad leaves are essential on this diet for vits mins and especially fibre.

Kezz on this diet the carb limit is 500g on the last meal (i think thats about a whole large pizza) but thats the max, on Lyle mcdonalds version of the keto diet on mesomorphosis.com he advises carb loading for 24 hours to replenish glycogen, but it'll take longer to get back into ketosis.


----------



## LiftHeavy

forget carb loading and trying to complicate things the diet is simple to follow and you cannot eat all th greens you want on this diet or as ive said the carb count will be too high. Take ur Ph and multi vit, yes with ur meat meal have some small green veg/salad


----------



## POPPA BEAR

LiftHeavy said:


> forget carb loading and trying to complicate things the diet is simple to follow and you cannot eat all th greens you want on this diet or as ive said the carb count will be too high. Take ur Ph and multi vit, yes with ur meat meal have some small green veg/salad


So you don't eat a carb meal at the weekend ?


----------



## LiftHeavy

yes you have 1 cheat meal on the same day each week that you choose and make it the last meal of the day so you cannot cheat again. Also you have to be on the diet for 14 days before you can have your first cheat meal


----------



## Kezz

my mate did it and took in 1500g of carbs throuhout the cheat day and lost a fantastic amount of weight , i cant make my mind up wether to try and cram it all in in one meal or over 3 or 4 hours


----------



## POPPA BEAR

LiftHeavy said:


> yes you have 1 cheat meal on the same day each week that you choose and make it the last meal of the day so you cannot cheat again. Also you have to be on the diet for 14 days before you can have your first cheat meal


Gotcha now buddy, thought you meant you didn't take in a carb meal


----------



## POPPA BEAR

Kezz said:


> my mate did it and took in 1500g of carbs throuhout the cheat day and lost a fantastic amount of weight , i cant make my mind up wether to try and cram it all in in one meal or over 3 or 4 hours


You could try it his way and if it doesn't work out tighten up on the carb up day....


----------



## DRED

Kezz said:


> my mate did it and took in 1500g of carbs throuhout the cheat day and lost a fantastic amount of weight , i cant make my mind up wether to try and cram it all in in one meal or over 3 or 4 hours


thats a ****e load of food for one meal...probably make your guts ache....


----------



## hackskii

Vegetable fiber is recommended on this diet, not to mention, it will keep your alkaline stores up eating green vegetables, and alkaline stores can become compromised on a diet of protein and fats.


----------



## hilly

i have a few mushrooms in my omelete makes it much nicer.

the cheat meal say i have this at 8pm sat night. does it all have to be eaten in 1 sitting or could i say have a pizza then weight half an hour and have mcd's then weight half an hour and have ice cream or does it all have to be in one sitting. not saying im going to do this but i will if i can lol


----------



## hilly

i think i might just stick to the diet till 9ish then eat what i want till i go to bed.


----------



## Kezz

Greekgoddess said:


> Well Kezz says he is going to experiment and try a whole day carb cheat when he gets on the diet......will wait to see the result of that one before I try it!
> 
> The carb refeed on the carb cycling diet used to make me feel sick and bloated all the next day, so I made that just one meal at the end of the day so I could sleep through the discomfort.


 when i did it on carb cycling diet last year i found i was starving again by the next afternoon and i lost 4 stone doing that


----------



## Tall

I'd be interested to see if you are actually placed into Ketosis on this diet.

I'm ~250lbs so that means I would need to intake 375g Protein ED, and 125g Fat ED. Which is 2600kcals.

At that level of Protein, Glucogenesis will occur, where the Protein will be converted to Glucose to be used for energy. Protein is a poor energy substrate for doing so, the body essentially wastes alot of energy trying to convert it.

The Fats will buffer the protein, so the body can start breaking down the protein into it's amino components, but with the sheer volume of protein being consumed I would suggest it may not be the most efficient method (due to points raised above), and that better results could be had with lower amounts of protein.

The problem is you will never ever get Bodybuilder en-mass to beleive that reducing Protein will speed up fat loss - otherwise everyone on the boards would be talking about Lyles work rather than Dave's. I've just had a PM to say Poliquin has also made similar comments - not about Daves diet - but about reducing protein intake to increase fat loss.

Sorry for the waffle. Can anyone tell me if they did reach ketosis on this diet? Or were they infact on a low kcal diet which contained energy substrates that the body finds 'difficult' to metabolise?

(Pro + Fat are more difficult to use an energy source than CHO, as it requires increased work to metabolise them and keep blood levels stable)

Ketones in your urine would be one way to check - But I only found they appeared when on higher amounts of fat (where the body would be using less stored body fat due to the availability of dietary fat), as would the weird smell in your mouth - I used to smell like pear drops, my training partner smelled like a rubbish bin.


----------



## Macca 1976

Somone copy and paste it on here as you need a password to get on that site.


----------



## Tall

One thing I found on a Keto diet was just how flat I was. I really enjoyed being on a Keto Diet (I love mince beef and green veg!) as I was able to eat alot (>4000kcals on average every day) and get stronger and get leaner while doing minimal cardio.

However I looked flat as a pancake.

There are many roads to rome after all, but it is surprising to see alot of bodybuilders utilising this method.

Unless of course as I stated above the volume of protein keeps you out of ketosis, and stops you looking flat (due to glucogenesis) and it is in essence a low kcal diet which utilises hard to digest energy substrates.

One of the reasons people will find it easy to loose weight will be the fact that carbs are controlled, resulting in no insulin spikes, and in addition as it's a keto diet you really have to time your meals correctly (as Pro+Fat takes longer to digest) in order that you don't feel hungry or crash. The fact that meals are being strictly controlled would also aid in the control of cortisol, and both Cortisol and Insulin play a part in fat storage.

Something else which hit me was he doesn't seem to advocate liberal amounts of green fibrous veg (providing I've read it correctly?) and some comments were made on veg and their carb count (this however may have been on the BB.com link someone put up) - I don't know if you've tried NOT eating Green Veg and just eating Pro+Fat for 2 weeks, but give it a go... You will find that Gastric Movements become increasingly difficult...

I ended up having to consume a load of Inulin Fibre to get "going" again 

Theres also a comment on him not liking MCTs during the diet. Does anyone have any more information on why this is the case?

I used to use Coconut Milk with a Breakfast Shake and then with a PWO Shake, as the MCTs in Coconut Milk are the "Glucose" of the Fat world (i.e. they are much faster acting) and would get me back into Ketosis faster.


----------



## hilly

tall i have been on the diet since monday. I am having 320protein and 108fat. i have keto sticks and will be checking 2moro to see if i have reached ketosis. the first part of this week i felt pretty tired and hungry but today i feel much better. I am having 3 mushrooms with my omelette for breaky and 100g of broccoli with my other 2 solid meals each.


----------



## hackskii

I look at this probably differently than others would, and I feel many people eat too much protein.

I always thought that protein supported lean muscle mass, and you need a certain amount for this. Sure training and recovery would change the values up and down some, but I feel you only need enough protein to support lean tissue.

I feel that all other calories from the diet should be fat.

I understand that there is something like a 25% loss of energy breaking down protein, but non soluble and soluble fibers, take a lot of energy to break down and have little return on energy intake.

The very cool thing I noticed about a keto diet once you lose the cravings, headaches, and get into ketosis, you just are not hungry. I feel this is really the body switching from sugar burning to fat burning, and let's face it, we all have some good amounts of fat to burn.

Keto diets are said to work better for men than for women, not sure why, but if I had to guess it probably has to do with the mounts of muscle men have in relation to women and this energy requirement for fuel.

Tall, those leptin posts on keto diets were nice and refreshing. Another reason for a reefed besides glycogen replenishment, would be thyroid output, the thyroid tends to stall some on a keto diet, carbs tend to spark that. Also over time it is said that Cortisol elevates when on a keto diet over time.

I know many bodybuilders that have dieted in my gym that were going into contests looked flat, some of them looked so bad but they did look lean. Some of those dudes lived on tuna and broccoli. They all looked actually terrible to me.

A prime example is James L. and his carb consumption, I remember a contest he came in so full it compromised his condition, he looked huge compared to the other dudes. But I think it was that time he had used more carbs in the run up to the contest and maybe even right up to the contest.

Another thing that has not been touched on is GH. If insulin is high then GH would be low, a keto diet would make sense to me in elevating GH, not to mention calorie restrictions also elevate GH.

MCT?

I thought that the body used those for energy?

I am curious about this too.

Nice post Tall, I am glad we have another nice mind on this thread, I appreciate your input.


----------



## hilly

its good to have both you guys and other sharing your knowledge on the subject.

this is my fourth day on the diet. i have just used 2 keto sticks today was going to wait till 2moro but thought id have a practice run.

it comes up i think between the first to colour changes which are called traces and faible. traces says 0.05 and faible is 0.15. id say it was closer to the second one.

i am feeling much better today.

i did dip one in water to check i wasnt making a mistake just in case lol.


----------



## hackskii

Man, I am 226 today, those after dinner binging of BS foods is really packing on the pounds.

Hell, I am only 5'6", 226 is just pathetic.


----------



## hilly

i never thought about coconut milk good shout tall


----------



## Tall

hackskii said:


> *I look at this probably differently than others would, and I feel many people eat too much protein.*
> 
> *I always thought that protein supported lean muscle mass, and you need a certain amount for this. Sure training and recovery would change the values up and down some, but I feel you only need enough protein to support lean tissue.*
> 
> *I feel that all other calories from the diet should be fat.*
> 
> *When dieting thats certainly an option. I know for me I would struggle now to train on a Keto diet as my training sessions last ~2hours, and as such I ingest upto 150g of simple carbs over that period.*
> 
> *The protein comment I beleive to be a valid one - but I don't think it will get many fans *
> 
> *I always preferred refeeding and having carbs pre-wo and sometimes pwo. See below.*
> 
> I understand that there is something like a 25% loss of energy breaking down protein, but non soluble and soluble fibers, take a lot of energy to break down and have little return on energy intake.
> 
> The very cool thing I noticed about a keto diet once you lose the cravings, headaches, and get into ketosis, you just are not hungry. I feel this is really the body switching from sugar burning to fat burning, and let's face it, we all have some good amounts of fat to burn.
> 
> Keto diets are said to work better for men than for women, not sure why, but if I had to guess it probably has to do with the mounts of muscle men have in relation to women and this energy requirement for fuel.
> 
> *Tall, those leptin posts on keto diets were nice and refreshing. Another reason for a reefed besides glycogen replenishment, would be thyroid output, the thyroid tends to stall some on a keto diet, carbs tend to spark that. Also over time it is said that Cortisol elevates when on a keto diet over time.*
> 
> *Sorry I was being lazy. Leptin plays a part in Thyroid regulation, alot of things are Systemic and so the outcome is part and parcel of the action.*
> 
> I know many bodybuilders that have dieted in my gym that were going into contests looked flat, some of them looked so bad but they did look lean. Some of those dudes lived on tuna and broccoli. They all looked actually terrible to me.
> 
> A prime example is James L. and his carb consumption, I remember a contest he came in so full it compromised his condition, he looked huge compared to the other dudes. But I think it was that time he had used more carbs in the run up to the contest and maybe even right up to the contest.
> 
> *Another thing that has not been touched on is GH. If insulin is high then GH would be low, a keto diet would make sense to me in elevating GH, not to mention calorie restrictions also elevate GH.*
> 
> *I have some info on this somewhere, current thoughts have changed on calorific restriction and GH I beleive. I'll dig it out.*
> 
> *MCT?*
> 
> *I thought that the body used those for energy?*
> 
> *I am curious about this too.*
> 
> *The thought/theory is that MCTs are a rapid fat, the glucose of the carb world if you will, and as such spare muscle glycogen allowing you to get into ketosis faster. Lyles theory, which I subscribe to was that you could almost get out of ketosis temporarily and have a small amount of carbs pre and/or post workout, if you had MCTs in either your PWO or PPWO meal. From my experience I could eat some oats, train and be back in ketosis abour 3 hours later - thats personal experience based on breath smells, how my body feels, and how my urine smelled. Others may be different, but I'm sure you can make your body more efficient at getting in and out of ketosis.*
> 
> Nice post Tall, I am glad we have another nice mind on this thread, I appreciate your input.


Comments in *red*


----------



## hackskii

Great post, if you have a good article on the leptin stuff, I would love to read that.

I could probably dig something up.

I personally found that the very first time I did a keto diet, it took longer for me to get into ketosis, and I totally struggled big time. I got the headache, I got irritable, depressed, totally had cravings for food, took over or around 3 days.

Now, I can bang into it with no headache, and no cravings with maybe the exception of a meal or so.

I really dont like the smells on a keto diet over time, I did 6 week and lost a good amount of weight, but smelled really bad, and it was kind of a funky body odor and I had a massive complex, hell the diet stalled anyway.

I was like, why bother with all this hastle and having a complex about my body odor.

Some say their breath smells like bandaids....lol

Now dont flame me here guys, I remember having just bacon on occasions at night and found that I had more success in fat loss than eating greasy meat.

I used to buy the high fat meats, they are cheap, and I used to season them with garlic, salt, and some other herbs.

But, no kidding the bacon deal worked well, I even had a buddy say the same thing.

Hey Tall, wasnt there some leptin shot or something?

I swear I remember something a while ago on them giving fat people leptin shots or something like that.


----------



## hackskii

Leptin: The Amazing Weight Loss Hormone

By Gailon Totheroh

CBN News Science and Medical Reporter

CBN.com - (CBN News) - Research on obesity is often not very practical, but research on a natural hormone in the body could be extremely useful now.

It could be the key to weight loss and improved health.

In 1994, researchers discovered a hormone called Leptin. Leptin was found to play an important natural role in suppressing appetite and burning more calories.

When you gain a few pounds, more Leptin is produced; your appetite goes down and you use more energy. The result: you lose the pounds.

"Leptin is a very vital hormone in the control of obesity, and when Leptin does not work, you'll become obese," said University of Florida pharmacologist Philip Scarpace. "And what's worse, once you become obese, then your susceptibility to gaining even greater weight is increased."

Originally, scientists thought overweight people had a Leptin deficiency so they could just get Leptin shots. But then it was discovered that most overweight people had plenty of Leptin.

So why wasn't Leptin doing what it was designed to do? Scientists began looking for the factors interfering with the normal Leptin process. One was insufficient sleep. Research has shown that not getting enough rest has a bad effect on Leptin's effectiveness.

And nutrition research demonstrates that healthy food enables Leptin to work better. When Leptin works as it should, there is less appetite and the fat gradually disappears.

Dr. Leo Galland began to understand the need to make Leptin work properly several years ago, and has now written a practical book to help those fighting the weight battle.

The Fat Resistance Diet explains the science behind Leptin, with guidelines on lifestyle to overcome Leptin resistance -- the factor that keeps you fat.

*Here is a post by a lady that was in a study:*

Leptin study

posted by Mrs. Elinka Kumpon on 03 Apr 2004 at 3:42 am

I was on a Leptin study for 1 year-I had to give myself Leptin shots 2X a week! The study was with Amagen! I did lose weight-felt the best I ever have considering I have no thyroid gland! I had so much energy-it was unbelievable! I am praying Leptin will be FDA approved so that I can again use it! It sure worked in cutting my appetite! I tend to disagree with your article, in that Leptin did give me energy and help me lose weight! Only wish the study did not end!

Damn, maybe I need to source this......lol


----------



## Tall

Google/PubMed should give you most of the Leptin / thyroid stuff you need.

Some of the journals wont be great, but will give you an indication of what you want to know. I'll have to dig out and fire up the old laptop to find the specifics I have.


----------



## Tall

Re: Leptin shots I'll ask a buddy who will know who/what/why/how etc


----------



## hackskii

Tall said:


> Google/PubMed should give you most of the Leptin / thyroid stuff you need.
> 
> Some of the journals wont be great, but will give you an indication of what you want to know. I'll have to dig out and fire up the old laptop to find the specifics I have.


Man, you know I dont understand or missinterprite studies:lol:

I need spoon feeding. :lol:


----------



## Guest

Kezz said:


> my mate did it and took in 1500g of carbs throuhout the cheat day and lost a fantastic amount of weight , i cant make my mind up wether to try and cram it all in in one meal or over 3 or 4 hours


 Well then thats not the Dave Palumbo diet.

I have no doubt it will not work i mean look at all of Scotts posts BUT its not the same diet as the Dave P diet..........and thats not nessacerly bad just bit confusing to some people reading the thread.


----------



## Kezz

i know it's not....... my fault sorry :-(


----------



## kaney

Greekgoddess said:


> Actually this info about leptin has set me thinking (that could be dangerous!).
> 
> Before Christmas I was on a medium carb, not keto diet. I slept very well and often had a siesta in the afternoons as well. As soon as I started the DP diet I had problems with sleeping. I would wake up over and over during the night and go back to sleep again.It didn't help that I had awful pains in the joints of my feet and wrists.
> 
> On the fourth day after starting the diet I felt cold all day and sleepy. On the fifth day I had incredible energy and strength, felt warm again and all the joint pains had gone. I went to bed that night and slept like a log. I have stayed the same ever since, I go to bed and sleep like the dead. I am not particularly hungry, even after training.
> 
> I think the link between leptin, sleep and losing bf is very interesting. I will try to look some of the info up on the internet.


Ive been on the diet now for 8 days as like yourself problems sleeping ie waking up a lot for no reason and i am having zma which should help, But now i am snoring i am told ha ha, 4th & 5th day i was tired and had no strenth 6th day a new man feeling energised and stronger but i'm finding it hard to wake up in the morning to do the cardio etc. 4lbs lost in 7 days mirrors showing good signs n i am feeling confident,

goodluck to you all.

Pete.


----------



## hackskii

Yes con is right, I am not talking about the DP diet, in general I am talking about keto diets, and my success with them.

I have never done the DP diet, I have done keto diets and I decided today to start one.

I can say this though.

I did the zone diet where the macros were 40/30/30 carbs/proteins/fats. For every 5 pounds of bodyweight, I lost 1" on my waist.

Atkins diet (keto diet), for every 4 pounds I lost 1" on my waist.

Now the diffrence could be because I may have not been as fat the first time around as I was about 190

On the Atkins diet I was like 210, or 205, I dont remember.

But the atkins diet stalled and once I added in the carbs very slowly, I started losing again.


----------



## hackskii

kaney said:


> Ive been on the diet now for 8 days as like yourself problems sleeping ie waking up a lot for no reason and i am having zma which should help, But now i am snoring i am told ha ha, 4th & 5th day i was tired and had no strenth 6th day a new man feeling energised and stronger but i'm finding it hard to wake up in the morning to do the cardio etc. 4lbs lost in 7 days mirrors showing good signs n i am feeling confident,
> 
> goodluck to you all.
> 
> Pete.


Consider taking some melatonin.


----------



## kaney

hackskii said:


> Consider taking some melatonin.


Having problems with your nightime sleep? Take 1 mg of liquid Melatonin with raspberry flavor and your problems will be solved! This product is effective to treat the insomnia, jet lag, immunological system, high levels of cholesterol and hypertension. It also has anti-age properties and contributes towards your cardiovascular health!

Thanks Hackskii i will se how it go's for another week withthe zma then if needed i will try the Melatonin


----------



## hilly

any1 know if soy sauce and lea in perrins is ok to have??


----------



## hilly

interesting vince good point


----------



## Beklet

Greekgoddess said:


> Tall, I am going to love you forever! I totally forgot that I can have coconut milk and oil on this diet and I adore the stuff. Thanks for mentioning it!


Coconut milk rocks - Thai red curry - mmmmmm :tongue:



hackskii said:


> Now dont flame me here guys, I remember having just bacon on occasions at night and found that I had more success in fat loss than eating greasy meat.
> 
> I used to buy the high fat meats, they are cheap, and I used to season them with garlic, salt, and some other herbs.
> 
> But, no kidding the bacon deal worked well, I even had a buddy say the same thing.


Ah bacon is the best - scrambled eggs and bacon for breakfast...... :thumb:


----------



## Tall

Vince said:


> Haven't been on for a while and just read the last 3 pages...
> 
> Seems to me a lot of ppl overthink this diet...the beauty of it is its simplicity, just follow the suggested ratios.
> 
> Mind you as everything else it might or might not work for you (i.e looking too flat).
> 
> As for glucogenesis it will not occur as you will be in ketosis...it might not show on keto sticks tho as the protein count and water intake are high hence faulting the reading.


Hi Vince,

Why do you think that glucogenesis can not occur?

If you are in Ketosis then the body has switched it's primary energy substrate from glucose to ketone bodies, ketone bodies being produced from the breakdown of fatty acids.

If you then ingest an energy substrate which the body is able to convert to glucose them glucogenesis will occur, and glucogenesis is just a long work for the creation of glucose from food.

So the consumption of an amount of carbs will through you out of Ketosis, the stated amount is generally considered to be ~30g, but that will depend on the individual.

Now the issue with the protein consumption we are postulating is that the amount of protein to which it is directed to consume may throw you out of ketosis as glucogenesis may occur.

Now why might glucogenesis occur? Because the body can't make use of almost 400g of Protein per day for muscle building, and some of that protein will be converted into Glucose by the Krebs cycle. Conversely some will be converted into acetyl coenzyme A, which was the basis for the old rating of ketogenic and glucogenic amino acids.

The list of ketogenic amino acids isn't very long from memory, the list of glucogenic amino acids is longer.

So going back to it I would say it's certainly possible given the amount of protein suggested that glucogenesis could occur, which would result in it not being a ketogenic diet - but would rather just be a low kcal diet.

So I don't think Protein would cause a fault on the reading, but rather you would simply not be in ketosis at that time. I also don't think that high amounts of water would fault the reading.


----------



## Tall

The other salient point to consider is going to be this, from a performance perspective it still remains that maximal muscular contraction cannot takeplace without glycogen stores which will be near enough none existant on a keto diet.


----------



## Guest

Tall said:


> The other salient point to consider is going to be this, from a performance perspective it still remains that maximal muscular contraction cannot takeplace without glycogen stores which will be near enough none existant on a keto diet.


 It didnt stop Ryan Kennelly benching a new world record while on a keto diet


----------



## hackskii

Beklet said:


> Ah bacon is the best - scrambled eggs and bacon for breakfast...... :thumb:


Yes, I love that breakfast....You can put hot sauce on the eggs too....lol


----------



## hackskii

Why is glucogenesis preferred when a refeed day is in place?

Would this be better than a refeed day?

Would glucogenesis interfere with fat loss while in ketosis?

Is more protein better than more fats for ketosis?

I mean if calorie per calorie is present.

I see this as a diet that curbs hunger, and also triggers fat loss, or fat burning.

Would the satisfaction of eating more protein and the loss of said energy substrate a trade off between taking in fats and targeting the fat loss from fat stores?


----------



## invisiblekid

Greekgoddess said:


> Does anyone want a recipe for coconut milk curry which is okay on this diet?


Erm...let me think about that.......YES!


----------



## Tall

Con said:


> It didnt stop Ryan Kennelly benching a new world record while on a keto diet


Thats quite interesting Con - do you have any links?

I'm going to hazard a guess that he wasn't just low carbing, but would be having an appropriate level or carbs for training. But thats just a guess.

Was this for him dropping 1 or 2 weight classes?


----------



## Kezz

sod it, i think i will just go for the cheat meal as opposed to full day.... i know the cheat day does work though and doesnt have any effect on the amount of fat loss as those who did it lost a uniform amount of fat per week, same as i suppose those on 1 meal... i am now thoroughly confused!!!


----------



## Tall

Vince said:


> If the body is in Ketosis (hence the brain's producing ketones) why would glucogenesis occur since the body is not looking for glucose as source of energy?
> 
> The amount of carbs taken indirectly is not sufficient to throw you out of ketosis.
> 
> If you're referring to the cheat meal (NOT CHEAT DAY) that will throw you out for a few hours but not enough to start glucogenesis.
> 
> As for protein intake 1.5gr/lbs doesn't seem to me that high (especially for users).
> 
> High water intake does fault the reading since the amount of ketones in the urine will be "diluted" hence not always registering on the sticks.
> 
> I do believe that when we talk about this diet the "keto" part should be omitted since is not a pure keto diet where the amount of fats should be higher and proteins a bit lower...this is Palumbo's adaptation to a bodybuilding enviroment where the aim is not just losing weight but get shredded.
> 
> Anyway all of your questions have been asked and answered already by Dave, since the original thread got quite big they created another one with just all his answers...still quite long but very useful http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php?t=25258


Hi Mate,

The brain doesn't produce Ketones - the liver and kidneys do.

The body will always look for the path of least resistance, it takes less energy for the body to utilisate Glucose as an energy substrate than it does to metabolise fatty acids into ketones.

Hence why consuming (for some people) as little as 30g Carbs in a single sitting can throw them out of ketosis.

Glucogenesis can occur on amino acids, where they are either oxidised or stored as glycogen.

When 'large' amounts of protein is consumed, or when certain types of protein are consumed (i.e. Whey), insulin is spiked which caused a change in the rate of glucogenesis or in this case a change in the rate of protein catabolism due to glucogenesis from amino acids.


----------



## hilly

tall i have checked with keto sticks at waking this morning and with after my protein shake and peanut butter 10 mins ago. both times i have been at the faible(0.15) or maybe slightly darker. i will contiue checking thru 2day and 2moro.

today i have had 4 whole eggs and 3 egg whites with 1 piece of bacon and 2 mushrooms, 2 whey protein shakes, 25g brazil nuts and 25g peanut butter.


----------



## Kezz

when re feeding if you keep you fat very low and protein lowish would your body use carbs to re fuel lost glycogen but still keep burning your fat for energy..... also what would the best carbs be to take in, high gi or low?? i am thinking high?/


----------



## Tall

Vince said:


> Sorry my bad i meant to say the brain is in Ketosis and feeding on ketone bodies (fat)
> 
> Once in ketosis there will be minimal stored glycogen (from indirect carb souces) so glucogenesis (The formation of glucose through the breakdown of glycogen) doesn't occour.
> 
> The body is always creating glucose from amino acids in the liver (gluconeogenesis).
> 
> Gluconeogenesis predominantly occurs when the brain is not in ketosis, since the brain needs carbs for fuel, the liver will turn amino acids into glucose to feed the brain. On a ketogenic diet the brain has switched over to using ketones (fats) for energy, there is very little need for glucose in the body since the brain no longer needs glucose for energy, so glucogenesis happens much less. However, when it does happen (i.e during sleep), there are plenty of amino acids present from the high protein diet you're consuming.
> 
> The only time gluconeogensis will occur in high amounts would be if high intensity cardio is employed (something discouraged on this diet for that very reason). In fact, on conventional moderate carb, low fat, high protein diets, gluconeogenesis is much more likely to occur.


Hah my bad also - incorrect use of 'glucogenesis'  You'll have to excuse me I tend to me doing a million and one things at once.

It's a while since I've revisted alot of the keto stuff, so do bear with me 

Ok - Gluconeogenesis, this occurs during fasting (i.e. sleeping) and creates glucose from aminos, LA and glycerol. When liver glycogen has been depleated, gluconeogenesis occurs from LA and aminos.

Normal blood glucose levels are the equivalent of 5g Sugar disolved in 8 pints of blood from memory.

When active athletes were studied on a ketogenic diet the upper level for protein requirement was found to be 1.6g/kg lbm.

As I said before (badly  ) when 'large' amounts of protein is consumed, or when certain types of protein are consumed (i.e. Whey), insulin is spiked which caused a change in the rate of gluconeogenesis from amino acids.

Having done a little digging even on a keto diet the brain still needs ~100g glucose to function (thats much higher than I had thought).

So I am still of the mind that the amount of protein it is recommended to consume could have an impact on BGL levels. We know that whey for example spikes insulin, but the question over it's effects on BGL I've not been able to establish.


----------



## hackskii

Greekgoddess said:


> I have just posted a list of carb counts for veggies and nuts on the other DP thread if anyone wants to have a look at them. Loads of good info at www.keto.org about keto diets, variations of them, and a copy of the original keto diet from the 1800's if you want an interesting read.
> 
> I will be posting the recipe for coconut milk curry on the recipes thread.


I didnt need to go any farther than the first one here. :cursing:

*Foods that are NOT appropriate. *

Beer,


----------



## hackskii

This is a great thread.

I didnt know the brain still needs glucose.

100g is alot, or sounds like alot to me.

I think the liver stores like 70 grams right?


----------



## hilly

tall - checked ketosticks again and i am now in atleast the 3rd one across which is 0.4. maybe even darker. i checked 3 times yesterday and never got lighter than the second one which is 0.15.


----------



## Kezz

bet you can't wait for it!! i think i will be having pancakes with maple syrup mmmmmm


----------



## DRED

Kezz said:


> bet you can't wait for it!! i think i will be having pancakes with maple syrup mmmmmm


tasty indeed....i got to wait till next sunday for my cheat meal...

tbo though i am enjoying the food i am eating at the moment....


----------



## Kezz

well i have to wait 2 weeks for them, i'm dropping my carbs down this weekend in preraration for monday, 100g today 50g tomnorrow 0 from monday


----------



## Tall

hackskii said:


> This is a great thread.
> 
> I didnt know the brain still needs glucose.
> 
> 100g is alot, or sounds like alot to me.
> 
> I think the liver stores like 70 grams right?


It sounded alot to me. I had to double check in some BioChem books which said similar (slightly higher) amounts.

I'd have to check on the liver and muscle glycogen stores.


----------



## Tall

hilly2008 said:


> tall - checked ketosticks again and i am now in atleast the 3rd one across which is 0.4. maybe even darker. i checked 3 times yesterday and never got lighter than the second one which is 0.15.


Thanks Hilly.

What's your macro split and amounts?

And what time did you test them?


----------



## DRED

gg thats always the way....you look forward to something nice and on the day,dont fancy it..


----------



## DRED

Greekgoddess said:


> Thats true Dred- with the exception of sex!


my god a married the wrong women :lol:


----------



## Lift

I understand (to an extent, scientifically) the possible conversion of proteins when too much is consumed. However, as has been said also. By changing anything (protein included) you are still on a diet, but no longer following the Dave Palumbo diet. Ive been following the prot/fat ratios to his recommendation and it is working very well for me (my avatar picture is me two weeks in and tonight is my first re-feed started the same day as GG)

I do feel flat at times but this is the first time I have dieted. I will see how this goes, try something next time round and learn what works for me. Which is all that anyone can do I guess....


----------



## hilly

Tall said:


> Thanks Hilly.
> 
> What's your macro split and amounts?
> 
> And what time did you test them?


my macro split is 320g protein and 106g fat however if i feel peckish or im craving something tasty i will have a few brazil nuts so the fat maybe slightly higher than that.

i did a test first thing on waking then one 5 minutes after my solid meal for lunch and the same again after my solid meal for tea.

I will do the same today. The stick was definatly darker this morning than yesterday but i didnt wake up and drink any water during the night so this may be a reason


----------



## dmcc

It's interesting that you've got no cravings, Janet. This week I've been avoiding carbs as much as possible during the day (i.e. oats and orange juice in the morning, minimal carbs during the day, then 50-75g in the evening); normally I'd want chocolate or something - but not this week.


----------



## Kezz

would high gi carbs be best for the re feed as they are used up quicker??


----------



## hilly

reflex whey has 2g of carbs per 40g pf protein so this is very similar to isotate.

vince with the cheat meal is anything you want such as pizza etc ok or does it still have to be healthyish??

also do you know if lea in perrins and soy is ok?

tall - just checked with a keto stick again after my last solid meal of the deal and im further into ketosis than i ever have been i reckon atleast 2nd darkest if not in between(0.8)


----------



## Tall

hilly2008 said:


> reflex whey has 2g of carbs per 40g pf protein so this is very similar to isotate.
> 
> vince with the cheat meal is anything you want such as pizza etc ok or does it still have to be healthyish??
> 
> also do you know if lea in perrins and soy is ok?
> 
> tall - just checked with a keto stick again after my last solid meal of the deal and im further into ketosis than i ever have been i reckon atleast 2nd darkest if not in between(0.8)


Thank Hilly.

So we certainly have one example showing that 300g Pro + 100g Fat will allow you to get into Ketosis.

How has your body comp changed in that time?


----------



## Kezz

cheat meal is a cheat meal mate... just cheat from the norm


----------



## Tall

Vince said:


> I reckon 1.5gr/lb BW is not too high for a Bodybuiler in contest prep mode...if you take into account the 2 daily cardio sessions on top of weight training.
> 
> I agree Whey can spike insulin since most whey powder contain 8 to 15gr of carbs for 50gr of protein, taken twice a day you've already hit 20ish gr of carbs from mainly sugar...that's why ONLY whey isolate (and of good quality) should be used.


Hi Vince,

8 to 15g of carbs would provide a minimal insulin spike, and thats not the reason why insulin is spiked.

The Whey portion of Milk has a high level of insulinotropic properties (it provides a high level of insulinogenic aminos), and as you refine Whey (WPC -> WPI -> WPH) the greater the Insulin response becomes due to the bioavailability of the aminos.

As a side point - whey alone (regardless of type) can spike insulin more than Whey+Carbs.

The question still remains of what occurs when large amounts of protein are consumed, given the change in gluconeogenesis and increased insulin spikes from WPI.


----------



## walks

hilly2008 said:


> reflex whey has 2g of carbs per 40g pf protein so this is very similar to isotate.
> 
> vince with the cheat meal is anything you want such as pizza etc ok or does it still have to be healthyish??
> 
> also do you know if lea in perrins and soy is ok?
> 
> tall - just checked with a keto stick again after my last solid meal of the deal and im further into ketosis than i ever have been i reckon atleast 2nd darkest if not in between(0.8)


Ive read daves thread now and he reccomends that the cheat is just that. A cheat.

He says if you keep it clean then its not going to fire up your metabolisim up as much.

his guidelines are to eat your protien quota first and then upto 500g of carbs. Also watch the tans fat.

Aparently he says you will be surprised at how you struggle to get loads of carbs down, due to your stomach having shrunk.

I think i will go with some kind of chicken curry and rice.

Durring the thread dave has said many times to not bother with the ketostix and that you dont even need to check fro ketosis


----------



## craigyk

I've been on this diet since december 27th with excellent results. Had my 1st cheat meal last night, 1 plate of chinese & a trifle, I can honestly say i felt bloated & sick as a dog after eating it. Actually looking forward to chicken & brocoli today.


----------



## DRED

craigyk said:


> I've been on this diet since december 27th with excellent results. Had my 1st cheat meal last night, 1 plate of chinese & a trifle, I can honestly say i felt bloated & sick as a dog after eating it. Actually looking forward to chicken & brocoli today.


how did you feel this morning....did you look full?any different to yesterday?


----------



## thevoice

what if one can only get there protein from powder sources as in whey con or whey iso, could they still do this diet.


----------



## hilly

Tall said:


> Thank Hilly.
> 
> So we certainly have one example showing that 300g Pro + 100g Fat will allow you to get into Ketosis.
> 
> How has your body comp changed in that time?


well ive dropped about 5 pounds since monday.

i am slightly more vascular in my arms etc and i think the biggest difference iis just overall water droped from my body. i did have slightly better definition in my arms and shoulders when training sat.


----------



## craigyk

Hi dred, yeah definately looked fuller this morning. Had my six eggs in a blender at 8am & still feel full & bloated now at 12. I normally eat every 2 & half hrs but cant face any more food at the moment.


----------



## LiftHeavy

the voice id recommend using whey iso for your shakes to keep the carb count down, this diet is pretty easy to follow, real food is better than shakes so get ur tuna,chicken and eggs down ur kneck lol


----------



## Kezz

dont get paranoid just follow the plan!! lol.... i am now after weeks of wanting to change it


----------



## hilly

right any1 shed any light on this.

i just ued a keto stick havnt used one since sat and its showing i am barely in ketosis. now i have drank around 3 litres of water already this morning and it was after training i tested. could any of these things effect the reading.

also when is the best time to check ketosticks??

nothing in my diet has changed bar asparagus instead of broccoli last night but i measured 100g and the carb read is about the same as far as i no


----------



## hilly

thnks vince i thought so i will test again first thing 2moro


----------



## Guest

thevoice said:


> what if one can only get there protein from powder sources as in whey con or whey iso, could they still do this diet.


6 shakes a day+supps and nothing else?? I wouldn't recommend it mate. I did know a guy who used to do something similar but only for a very limited time. And he used to burn fat for fun, a real ecto. By his own admission he said it wasnt the best idea and would never use it for more than a week.

Real food always wins hands down IMO.


----------



## hackskii

mikex101 said:


> Real food always wins hands down IMO.


I always suggest this, and there are very good reasons why too.


----------



## Cap'n Beefy

So, been on this since 1st Jan.

Have only been doing cardio in evening after weights as busy on school run etc in the mornings.

Scales say have lost 15 pounds, or just over a stone. Can't see any lost mass, but does this sound too much, too fast?? :confused1:

Abs are appearing slowly though!! Woohoo!!! :thumb:


----------



## Kezz

thats a pound a day!!!


----------



## Cap'n Beefy

I know!! Wish it went on as fast!!


----------



## hilly

whats the best supplements to be taking on this diet. i am currently taking

6 omega 3 1g

2 primrose oil

1g vit c

multi vit

husk x 2

milk thistle

anything else like BCAA's or l glutamine i should really be taking??


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538

Am i right by thinking that on this diet he suggests that once a week for your last meal you refeed by eating 200g carbs is this correct (if not please could someone explain what he does as i fall under the 200lb categorie and am thinking about doing this diet to see what its like) Thanks


----------



## pastanchicken

Two weeks?? Oh dear :cursing: , lol


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538

^^^^^^^ Looks like someone else misread it lol

So what is it for guys????

Does anyone know, i am in the process of reading it but as you all already know it has a load of pages including supplements AAS etc so have not even got half way through yet.

If you eat 200g+ of carbs in one meal wouldnt this bring your body out of ketosis?


----------



## SOUTHMAN

i had a cheat meal after 1 week lol oops


----------



## pastanchicken

Lol, was sure I heard you had to wait two weeks, was just hoping I was wrong!


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538

i think you might have to wait for the 2 weeks so your body can adjust to using its own fat for energy rather than your used stores of glycogen!

I would just carry on as normal if i was you guys and then when it comes to the day that you have to have a cheat day dont for this week or next and then have one the week after then you should feel the full benefits of the diet, or atleast thats what i would do if i was you guys any way!

So in regards tot he question i asked if you guys have already had your cheat day how much carbs did you consume and do you fall in the 200lb or the 250lb+?


----------



## pastanchicken

that sounds logical mate.

with regards to your question, I can't really help, not started the diet yet, so iwll be interested to see the answer. I'm 200lbs too mate


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538

ok if you find out before either me or someone else post's it up on here then feel free to post up your findings as i am sure there are others with the same question on it!


----------



## pastanchicken

will do pal


----------



## POPPA BEAR

The cheat meal should be UP TO 500gm's carbs, thats up to, not you must eat that many.


----------



## beefcakebaggie

Chris4Pez said:


> i think you might have to wait for the 2 weeks so your body can adjust to using its own fat for energy rather than your used stores of glycogen!
> 
> I would just carry on as normal if i was you guys and then when it comes to the day that you have to have a cheat day dont for this week or next and then have one the week after then you should feel the full benefits of the diet, or atleast thats what i would do if i was you guys any way!
> 
> So in regards tot he question i asked if you guys have already had your cheat day how much carbs did you consume and do you fall in the 200lb or the 250lb+?


I'm not counting the carbs on my cheat meal (I'm waiting the full two weeks too & it's a killer), Wednesday night I will just eat starchy carbs (Pasta, bread, chips etc) until I feel almost full then top off with some ice cream till completely full.


----------



## pastanchicken

beefcakebaggie said:


> I'm not counting the carbs on my cheat meal (I'm waiting the full two weeks too & it's a killer), Wednesday night I will just eat starchy carbs (Pasta, bread, chips etc) until I feel almost full then top off with some ice cream till completely full.


lol, that sounds like a plan!


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538

I just cant see if you are having that many carbs how you can stay in ketosis and also how you will still be losing weight????

Not saying that it does not work as i know that many have tried this diet and it has had good effects but as i said i just cant see how you would stay in ketosis and also how you would continue to lose weight and bodyfat if you eat that many carbs in one go!


----------



## POPPA BEAR

You will be briefly knocked out of ketosis but the idea is that the carbs will go straight into muscle glycogen rather than stored as fat.....

Thus not leaving you with an empty tank for the upcoming week.

PS it can also help bump up thyroid and metabolic rate


----------



## hilly

Chris4Pez said:


> I just cant see if you are having that many carbs how you can stay in ketosis and also how you will still be losing weight????
> 
> Not saying that it does not work as i know that many have tried this diet and it has had good effects but as i said i just cant see how you would stay in ketosis and also how you would continue to lose weight and bodyfat if you eat that many carbs in one go!


i had my cheat meal friday night i had 1 large dominoes pizza and 2 small tubs of ben and jerrys. sat morning i was not in ketosis, sunday morning i was back in ketosis.


----------



## pastanchicken

Interesting, cheers Hilly


----------



## hilly

no worries mate. i did a test for tall checking keto sticks at each meal 3 times a day for 3 days and was in ketosis every time so the high protein isnt stopping me achieving it.


----------



## Chris4Pez1436114538

How did you check your state of ketosis did you use ketosticks?


----------



## hilly

yes i did mate.


----------



## Guest

POPPA BEAR said:


> PS it can also help bump up thyroid and metabolic rate


thats the reason as far as i know. if i could get away without a cheat i probably would. But apparently they help things along again. so why not? Pizza sounds like a plan!


----------



## walks

Chris4Pez said:


> I just cant see if you are having that many carbs how you can stay in ketosis and also how you will still be losing weight????
> 
> Not saying that it does not work as i know that many have tried this diet and it has had good effects but as i said i just cant see how you would stay in ketosis and also how you would continue to lose weight and bodyfat if you eat that many carbs in one go!


you wont be in ketosis. the idea of the carb meal is to kick you out of ketosis and fire up the thyroid. Also to top up glycogen.

He does stress that this is not a proper 100% keto diet. He also says not to bother with the stix

Remember you wont put fat on from one carb meal a week, over the week you will be in a cal deficit and most of that time your body will be using fat for fuel


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## walks

for men he reccomends upto 500g of carbs in the cheat meal.

however you must get your protien in. Also you dont have to have that many if you dont want. In fact you will find it hard to eat 500g due to your stomach shrinking over the first 2 weeks


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## hackskii

One thing with coffee is it can increase fasting blood glucose levels.

I believe this will make you less insulin sensitive over time.


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## tpeter

bump


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## flynny

Hi im lookin to start this diet Monday the 200lb male version few questions I'm unsure on if anyone could help be great , mentions somewhere about getting fibre in ???? Is the diet literally all I eat no supps nothing where am I getting the fibre from ?? And cheat meal once a week is that literally what I want ?? Also apart from water what cold drink we drinkin on this ?? Thanks people if anyone could help be great wanna jump on this ASAP


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## flynny

?????


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## Ultrasonic

You bumped a thread from 2008 and expected a quick reply from the original posters?


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## John.

I'm sure in 11 pages your question is answered somewhere.

First page suggests Psyllium husks are used to supplement fibre.


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## flynny

Ultrasonic said:


> You bumped a thread from 2008 and expected a quick reply from the original posters?


 Did not look at date and purely researching mate which in my opions a good thing


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## flynny

Ultrasonic said:


> You bumped a thread from 2008 and expected a quick reply from the original posters?


 Ps like the fact your following my input lol ????


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## Ultrasonic

flynny said:


> Ps like the fact your following my input lol ????


 I read most threads in the diet section...

If you read through this one you'll probably find the info. you're after. Good luck with whatever approach you go for  .


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## flynny

Ultrasonic said:


> I read most threads in the diet section...
> 
> If you read through this one you'll probably find the info. you're after. Good luck with whatever approach you go for  .


 Nah highly appreicated mate I just like to do as much research as poss


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## Ultrasonic

flynny said:


> Nah highly appreicated mate I just like to do as much research as poss


 If you're after more info in general I'd suggest giving this series of articles a read:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/comparing-the-diets-part-1.html/


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