# weights



## evolution (Jul 18, 2009)

When you are tying to find the right weight to lift, to get you started. Do you pick a weight that you can do 3 sets of reps and start to struggle on number 8 out of 12. Or do you go for the gut busting all hard...


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2007)

it will vary from person to person, however i will do a lightish set as warm up and not to failure, then ill do an heavier set again not to failure, then ill do another set again not to failure. Then my fourth and last set will be my heaviest and to failure. On your heaviest set you should only be able to do around 8 to 10 reps.


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## evolution (Jul 18, 2009)

so am i best to 3 sets or 4 sers of reps


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## Guest (Oct 8, 2007)

John, depending on your objective here ok, if your loosing weight and looking to tone up then rep range will be from 12 to 15 reps ok... If your looking to add muscle then rep range from 8 to 12, ok. (my opinion only)

As your a biginner i'd suggest you do an all over workout as bulldozer sugested, ok. Now if i were you id do max 4 sets per bodypart for now, ok.

At a later stage i'd add more sets into your workout.

So mate chose your rep range and then just stick to the 4 sets per bodypart and you can't go wrong for now then in a month come back and then learn about splitting the body into a few workouts i.e. chest, biseps, triceps in one workout and so on.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Not to start yet another MC argument but leave cutting out of the weights room. Ie don't try to cut doing high rep stuff it makes very little sense and comes from that absurd toning argument. Weights and cardio should be left seperate.

Circuits/treadmill/sports etc are fair better cutters than weights

On a cut your aim is to preserve your muscle mass whilst loosing bodyfat. The best way to do this is definitely not to change your rep range. This is neither optimal for loosing bodyfat or for preserving muscle mass so it makes no sense to do this on a cut.

Cut down on your training days maybe switch to a full body workout. Cal and Bulldozer's way of training I think would work pretty well on a cut. ie HIT stuff. Then do cardio 3 days a week. Thats my opinion there are other ways that will work but toning is an absurd word that doesn't exist.

A muscle is usually considered 'toned' (I have a serious vendetta against this word) the more defined it is, ie the more striations you can see etc. This is simply bodyfat relative. The lower your bodyfat the more toned you are, or to put it slightly differently the more defined you are. You want to tone lower your BF.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

In response to your initial question no one unfortunately can answer that for you only make suggestions as to what we do. I do three working sets the first two to failure and the final a forced rep added. This is usually 12, 10 - 8, 6 as I vary the weight (by increasing it). This is a general rule for more exercises but certainly not all.


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## evolution (Jul 18, 2009)

omg its hard to understand it all. basicly i need to build my chest muscles up, cause my chest is flat. Im a littel over weight cause iv got a bit of a spare tire. i just dont want to get 3 months down the road and see that iv been doing it wrong...lol


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## mrhulahoop (Oct 29, 2006)

Maybe like Ali M said, do a full body work out at first, and then after a few weeks split it up. Dont worry about rep range for the first few weeks, just concentrate on lifting the weights correctly, ie with proper form. After the first few weeks split it up into a two week or three week split.

There are different ways of training, for chest I do 5 sets of 5 reps at the same weight, with a warm up set first. In your case I would probably do maybe three sets, first on a lightish weight and second two on a heavy weight, nice and slow concentrating on form and not so much on the weight you lift.

Dont worry about it being complicated mate, its simple enough for a beginner. Maybe read through the progress journals to get an idea of how different people train.

My main piece of advice would be to concentrate on compound exercises (ie ones that work more than one muscle group) and keep away from isolations. Eat well, sleep well.

Good luck mate.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Young Gun said:


> Not to start yet another MC argument but leave cutting out of the weights room. Ie don't try to cut doing high rep stuff it makes very little sense and comes from that absurd toning argument. Weights and cardio should be left seperate.


Just to back up YG - Nick500 asked this before:

http://www.musclechat.co.uk/bodybuilding-training/21389-high-rep-training-cut.html

From memory different rep ranges promote use of different muscle fibres as opposed to having a more aerobic / anaerobic response.

Sadly I can't find any "proof" / "opinions" / "studies" which back this up as I'm still working.


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## bulldozer1466867928 (Oct 8, 2006)

Nobody can really say that 8/12 reps is for size and 1/5 reps is for strength etc. It depends on the individual. Everybody has a different makeup of fast and slow twitch muscle fibres so will respond differently.

I dont like high reps (except for squats ) i like to lift as heavy ass a weights as i can shift! So normally stick to sets of approx 5 reps. But thats just me

its trial and error im afraid, just like most stuff in this game!


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## evolution (Jul 18, 2009)

wht brings me to my next point do you think i should get started on some supplements


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## mrhulahoop (Oct 29, 2006)

TallHeavyAndSkinny said:


> From memory different rep ranges promote use of different muscle fibres as opposed to having a more aerobic / anaerobic response.
> 
> Sadly I can't find any "proof" / "opinions" / "studies" which back this up as I'm still working.


I dont really see the point of having an opinion then finding studies to back it up. Read studies then form an opinion.


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## mrhulahoop (Oct 29, 2006)

If your not getting enough protein then supplement your diet with some whey. There is no better supplement than the right quantity of good food.


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## mrhulahoop (Oct 29, 2006)

bulldozer said:


> Nobody can really say that 8/12 reps is for size and 1/5 reps is for strength etc. It depends on the individual. Everybody has a different makeup of fast and slow twitch muscle fibres so will respond differently.


Is it possible to alter your own ratio of fast versus slow twitch fibres? I dont know.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

mrhulahoop said:



> I dont really see the point of having an opinion then finding studies to back it up. Read studies then form an opinion.


I was rather highlighting the fact that the majority of proof and studies out there are merely an opinion based on a sample dataset, and thus encompassed all three terms in my reply


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## bulldozer1466867928 (Oct 8, 2006)

mrhulahoop said:


> Is it possible to alter your own ratio of fast versus slow twitch fibres? I dont know.


Nope its not bro


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

mrhulahoop said:


> Is it possible to alter your own ratio of fast versus slow twitch fibres? I dont know.
> 
> 
> bulldozer said:
> ...


An interesting article on the above

Bodybuilding.com - David Robson - How Do Fast-Twitch & Slow-Twitch Muscle Fibres Influence Athletic Performance?



> Can We Alter Our Fast-Twitch/Slow-Twitch Composition?
> 
> Given that the exact composition of ones muscles is genetically determined, there is probably not a lot one can do to change the extent to which fibre types influence their training, during the early stages of their athletic career.
> 
> ...


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## evolution (Jul 18, 2009)

omg iv made a monster thread lmao


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## mrhulahoop (Oct 29, 2006)

TallHeavyAndSkinny said:


> I was rather highlighting the fact that the majority of proof and studies out there are merely an opinion based on a sample dataset, and thus encompassed all three terms in my reply


Re-reading over my orriginal response to you [email protected] I actually sounded quite arrogant there didn't I.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

mrhulahoop said:


> Re-reading over my orriginal response to you [email protected] I actually sounded quite arrogant there didn't I.


ha ha nar not really mate -


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## bulldozer1466867928 (Oct 8, 2006)

Hmm that "article" you posted dont actually prove anything lol.

Its just one guy going on about some could haves, nearly dids and might have beens. Anyone can do that !! Where is the proof?

Its widely recognised that you cant change your genetic makeup of muscle fibres but hey ho.....


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

bulldozer said:


> Hmm that "article" you posted dont actually prove anything lol.
> 
> Its just one guy going on about some could haves, nearly dids and might have beens. Anyone can do that !! Where is the proof?
> 
> Its widely recognised that you cant change your genetic makeup of muscle fibres but hey ho.....


This was kind of my point... Its an interesting article...

The terms "proof" / "opinions" / "studies" are pretty much interchangeable in this sport as 'the proof' is an opinion reached when a subset of data agrees with a hypothesis proposed.

No matter what you say someone will disagree and find someone else who disgarees etc etc blah


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## bulldozer1466867928 (Oct 8, 2006)

TallHeavyAndSkinny said:


> This was kind of my point... Its an interesting article...
> 
> The terms "proof" / "opinions" / "studies" are pretty much interchangeable in this sport as 'the proof' is an opinion reached when a subset of data agrees with a hypothesis proposed.
> 
> No matter what you say someone will disagree and find someone else who disgarees etc etc blah


I agree about the studies , but i would take a study over an article anyday still.

Although saying that most studies are just some university that takes 20 sports jocks and does a test on them or whatever. Its hardly conslusive proof.

I dont think too deeply into things and just use common sense to see me through. For instance in this case, its common sense to me that you cant change your genetics.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

bulldozer said:


> I dont think too deeply into things and just use common sense to see me through. For instance in this case, its common sense to me that you cant change your genetics.


You can (HRT, Sex Change etc etc etc). But I know what you mean.


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## evolution (Jul 18, 2009)

lol and my responce to supplements is


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

mrhulahoop said:


> If your not getting enough protein then supplement your diet with some whey. There is no better supplement than the right quantity of good food.


Hula answered you on page two mate


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## evolution (Jul 18, 2009)

should i get some meal replacment shakes. And can you recommend the best protein sups from..


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## mrhulahoop (Oct 29, 2006)

Get some if you need some...ie if you cant at some point get a proper meal in you. Real food is always better. I sometimes have to use them when I cant eat a proper meal due to my job.

Extreame meal replacements are OK.

You need to be eating 6 or 7 times a day mate you know that right? Look at the diet sticky in the diet section.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2007)

mrhulahoop said:


> Real food is always better.


Tonight i cooked chicken, vegies, and a couple of sweet potatoes, i then put it all in a blender whisked it into a fine drink then drank it in one. KIDDING YOU!

I fail to see the difference between a meal replacement drink to a cooked meal. In fact i dare say there is possible more benefit with a meal replacement drink, i.e. more complete.

This will obvious provoke an argument, but hey tell me the dif and back it up, i could take 6 meal replacement drinks a day or six meals a day, i can control my diet better with meal replacement drinks and possibly get better quality nutriants.


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## evolution (Jul 18, 2009)

my problem is i eat to much junk and like a few cans at night. so would me getting meal replacements or shakes be better for me.


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Ali M said:


> Tonight i cooked chicken, vegies, and a couple of sweet potatoes, i then put it all in a blender whisked it into a fine drink then drank it in one. KIDDING YOU!
> 
> I fail to see the difference between a meal replacement drink to a cooked meal. In fact i dare say there is possible more benefit with a meal replacement drink, i.e. more complete.
> 
> This will obvious provoke an argument, but hey tell me the dif and back it up, i could take 6 meal replacement drinks a day or six meals a day, i can control my diet better with meal replacement drinks and possibly get better quality nutriants.


Thats just wrong. Food has a far better designer than every supplement. All food has the vitamins minerals and nutrients designed to work in synergy to allow each to do their job effectively. It depends whether we are talking home made MRP or branded MRP. Homemade would be just as good. Moreover the carbs in MRP's are usually crap.


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## mrhulahoop (Oct 29, 2006)

A few tins at a night arnt going to help mate, especially if you want to loose fat. I do occasionally get pissed though.

I beleive a good clean bulking diet is what you want. If you eat junk, stop eating junk. Like I said, you need to read the diet sticky in the diet section. Follow a diet like that. If you arnt going to eat right, then there is no point in any of this. If at any time of the day you cant get a meal in as I have already said, then use a meal replacement shake. Buy some whey if you have sometimes problems getting in the right amount of protein.


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## bulldozer1466867928 (Oct 8, 2006)

Young Gun said:


> Thats just wrong. Food has a far better designer than every supplement. All food has the vitamins minerals and nutrients designed to work in synergy to allow each to do their job effectively. It depends whether we are talking home made MRP or branded MRP. Homemade would be just as good. *Moreover the carbs in MRP's are usually crap.*


I agree.

Lots of MRP use meltadextrin or worse. I would take oats over that anyday!

I cannot think of one single thing in any aspect of life where man does it better than mother nature. Stick with real food and if neccasary use "supplements" to aid.

They are called supplements for a reason!!


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## mrhulahoop (Oct 29, 2006)

Ali M said:


> I fail to see the difference between a meal replacement drink to a cooked meal. In fact i dare say there is possible more benefit with a meal replacement drink, i.e. more complete.


Can't agree with that at all. Im with Young gun all the way with this one. Food tends to have an amino acid profile that is more accuratley reflects what we have in our own body for a start.


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## evolution (Jul 18, 2009)

how do i know if im not getting the right protine.???


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## evolution (Jul 18, 2009)

going to start a new thread in supplements before i get told off.


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## mrhulahoop (Oct 29, 2006)

Try reading the diet sticky in the diet section and then you will know.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2007)

bulldozer said:


> I cannot think of one single thing in any aspect of life where man does it better than mother nature.


LOL, MRP's are mother nature, like where do you think the stuff come from, like the protein and carbs and vitamins?

I do see your point though, however i still fail to see a difference here, once its down your neck its down. No Dif to me.

They are MRP's and a good quality one will be as good.


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## kittykat (Apr 22, 2007)

with my job its very difficult to eat three whole food meals so i have to use mrp,s or else i wudnt get the cals i need. and tbh i find it really hard eating large amounts of food six or seven times a day!


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## bulldozer1466867928 (Oct 8, 2006)

Ali M said:


> LOL, MRP's are mother nature, like where do you think the stuff come from, like the protein and carbs and vitamins?
> 
> I do see your point though, however i still fail to see a difference here, once its down your neck its down. No Dif to me.
> 
> They are MRP's and a good quality one will be as good.


They are processed by man so therefor its not natural mate.

I have never seen a tree with tubs of whey hanging from it lol


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

bulldozer said:


> They are processed by man so therefor its not natural mate.
> 
> I have never seen a tree with tubs of whey hanging from it lol


Great post


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Ali M said:


> I do see your point though, however i still fail to see a difference here, once its down your neck its down. No Dif to me.


The difference is exactly what I wrote above and what Hula has stated.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Basically with things like MRPs, they try and create with the addition of different chemicals the nutrients which are naturally found in food.

The classic thought being that anything natural is better than anything synthetic.

I'm not knocking MRPs, I'm not promoting them either.

They taste nice. Where time doesn't allow I use shakes. Providing I've planned my day correctly - 6 out of 8 of my meals are now whole food. However I always carry extra powder in my cool bag just in case.

Long and short - this isn't an argument which is easily settled as good MRPs can provide all 22aminos and a daily dose of vitamins - not all of which will be provided by one meal. Question is how much of the above do you need etc etc blah

You know the drills boys


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2007)

Good post Tall, lots of MRP's are derived from mother nature. And anyway one could argue that most foods to day are genetically modified and forced to grow quicker than normal. Take cows and chickens for example if you saw the crap some of these were fed and the steroids there given and the conditions the chickens are kept in then im sure this changes the argument slightly. However, i still fail to see the dif, i really do. A


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## Nath1466867935 (Sep 4, 2007)

You could also argue that MRP's do not supply adequate roughage in order to keep bowel movement and colon healthy. For me it's food a the way, I'll have a protein shake on my walk home from the gym when my body is screaming out for a protein injection, and maybe one before bed to top up my levels, other than that FOOOOOOOD!!!!


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Nath said:


> You could also argue that MRP's do not supply adequate roughage in order to keep bowel movement and colon healthy. For me it's food a the way, I'll have a protein shake on my walk home from the gym when my body is screaming out for a protein injection, and maybe one before bed to top up my levels, other than that FOOOOOOOD!!!!


Hmmm never had a problem in roughage dept with zee shakes.

However these days I make my own with oats + my secret blend of 13 herbs and spices...


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## bulldozer1466867928 (Oct 8, 2006)

TallHeavyAndSkinny said:


> Hmmm never had a problem in roughage dept with zee shakes.
> 
> However these days I make my own with oats + my secret blend of 13 herbs and spices...


Make ya own shakes and they are real food! much better


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## Nath1466867935 (Sep 4, 2007)

bulldozer said:


> Make ya own shakes and they are real food! much better


Def the way to go, the perfect compromise!!


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## Nath1466867935 (Sep 4, 2007)

TallHeavyAndSkinny said:


> Hmmm never had a problem in roughage dept with zee shakes.
> 
> However these days I make my own with oats + my secret blend of 13 herbs and spices...


Sounds 'Finger Lickin Good'

I get there eventually


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2007)

im not against making your own shakes in fact yes better, however am i right in saying you dont put half a chicken in your blender? lol ill assume you use whey protein.

I rest my case.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Ali M said:


> im not against making your own shakes in fact yes better, however am i right in saying you dont put half a chicken in your blender? lol ill assume you use whey protein.
> 
> I rest my case.


Chicken in Blender = Liquid Meal

Whey + Oats + Fibre + BCAA Powder + Flavouring + Dextrose = MRP


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## Nath1466867935 (Sep 4, 2007)

Ali M said:


> im not against making your own shakes in fact yes better, however am i right in saying you dont put half a chicken in your blender? lol ill assume you use whey protein.
> 
> I rest my case.


I love a tuna milkshake first thing in the morning.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2007)

Nath said:


> I love a tuna milkshake first thing in the morning.


You are kidding me, i hope you add your bcaa's as tuna is not complete in bcaa's unlike chicken and eggs ect.

I could be wrong just thought i'd say that, lol. no doubt Tall will let us know.


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## razg (Nov 23, 2004)

TallHeavyAndSkinny said:


> Chicken in Blender = Liquid Meal
> 
> Whey + Oats + Fibre + BCAA Powder + Flavouring + Dextrose = MRP


Dextrose in an MRP, are you crazy?


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

razg said:


> Dextrose in an MRP, are you crazy?


  

I dont really put dextrose in.

I dont even touch Maltro any more...


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## Nath1466867935 (Sep 4, 2007)

Ali M said:


> You are kidding me, i hope you add your bcaa's as tuna is not complete in bcaa's unlike chicken and eggs ect.
> 
> I could be wrong just thought i'd say that, lol. no doubt Tall will let us know.


Yeah, I was kidding, sorry...


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Ali M said:


> You are kidding me, i hope you add your bcaa's as tuna is not complete in bcaa's unlike chicken and eggs ect.
> 
> I could be wrong just thought i'd say that, lol. no doubt Tall will let us know.


I've no idea mate. I dont like tuna.

Chicken and Beef and Eggs I like.

I've posted a number of times asking about amino acid content but no ones ever answered.


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## bulldozer1466867928 (Oct 8, 2006)

Ali M said:


> im not against making your own shakes in fact yes better, however am i right in saying you dont put half a chicken in your blender? lol ill assume you use whey protein.
> 
> I rest my case.


I dont use whey for my shakes mate.


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## bulldozer1466867928 (Oct 8, 2006)

Nath said:


> I love a tuna milkshake first thing in the morning.


Nowt wrong with a tuna shake !

check this out HELL YEAH TUNA SHAKE BABY !!!!

Man up and give them a go!! lol

I use eggs in my shakes


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2007)

TallHeavyAndSkinny said:


> I dont really put dextrose in.
> 
> I dont even touch Maltro any more...


lol, first you post up that you do then you post that you don't, err correct me if im wrong but your the type who is like never gets out wrong? so come on admit it youve been putting dextrose in your shakes lol.

pmsl


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Ali M said:


> lol, first you post up that you do then you post that you don't, err correct me if im wrong but your the type who is like never gets out wrong? so come on admit it youve been putting dextrose in your shakes lol.
> 
> pmsl


Dextrose... Sugar... Treacle.... Keep that on the quiet though...


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## Nath1466867935 (Sep 4, 2007)

bulldozer said:


> Nowt wrong with a tuna shake !
> 
> check this out HELL YEAH TUNA SHAKE BABY !!!!
> 
> ...


thats hilarious......

......although I do have a few cans of tuna in my cupboard


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## Nath1466867935 (Sep 4, 2007)

bulldozer said:


> Nowt wrong with a tuna shake !
> 
> check this out HELL YEAH TUNA SHAKE BABY !!!!
> 
> ...


A classic recipe from that site,

1 can solid white tuna in water,drained

2 1/2 cups V-8 juice

1 tsp extra virgin olive oil (optional)

2 tbsp lemon juice

a dash of a good Habanero pepper sauce

Oh man, the thought of it is turning my stomach, you could even through a few raw eggs in for a more extreme option


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2007)

Nath said:


> you could even through a few raw eggs in for a more extreme option


throw, just thought i'd correct you there mate. They don't like bad spelling on here. Im always getting ribbed for it.


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## Nath1466867935 (Sep 4, 2007)

Yeah man, that was unacceptable especially as I teach English =)


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## Tom84 (Dec 12, 2005)

Chicken, and Turkey have 18 aminos eggs far higher and whey protein varies.

For god sake stop with the MRP's are made by mother nature this is ridiculous. A bodybuilders diet should follow all the normal principles we all know about yes but a very important one missed out is something I've seen called the steps principle.

How many steps has the food gone through in processing before consumption. Ie raw vegetables 0. Chicken usually 0 etc

MRP's are entirely synthetic. They do not possess nutrients in correct ratios to work as your body is designed. A natural example - MILK.

Not designed for humans but baby animals. And oh look 1/5 of people are lactose intolerant. Its doing my head in the amount of good info thats been posted and then ' well I still don't see the difference.' HOW

MRP shakes that have more natural ingredients ie homemade are far better. Ie peanut butter banana's oats and obviously whey. But still if you can eat real food do so. Please can we end this debate here. Everyone in the BB commmunity agrees surely that eating real food is far far better than shakes for every single reason aside from 2.

1. Convenience

2. The times when you should be using Isolate ( I can't be bothered explaining fast releasing, blah blah blah - you know the drill)


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## Nath1466867935 (Sep 4, 2007)

"A natural example - MILK.

Not designed for humans but baby animals. And oh look 1/5 of people are lactose intolerant."

I would use breast milk in my shakes but struggle to find a reliable source who can express 500 chilled mls on demand =)


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Nath said:


> "A natural example - MILK.
> 
> Not designed for humans but baby animals. And oh look 1/5 of people are lactose intolerant."
> 
> I would use breast milk in my shakes but struggle to find a reliable source who can express 500 chilled mls on demand =)


eeeuuuwwww

You are one sick puppy.


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## Nath1466867935 (Sep 4, 2007)

TallHeavyAndSkinny said:


> eeeuuuwwww
> 
> You are one sick puppy.


Sorry, I (not unlike this thread) have gone a bit silly.


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2007)

Well you know your stuff mate, however you fail to back your argument up, now i can back my end up easy i can just post all the ingrediants in an MRP, ok. Now you can't back yours up i.e. there is no evidence to suggest that MRP's are not what they are. MEAL REPLACEMENT SUPPLEMENT

Quote "Are meal replacement products healthy?

By law, meal replacement products must provide the recommended amount of nutrients needed for good health and their composition must conform to certain standards defined by a European Directive.


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## Tall (Aug 14, 2007)

Ali M said:


> Well you know your stuff mate, however you fail to back your argument up, now i can back my end up easy i can just post all the ingrediants in an MRP, ok. Now you can't back yours up i.e. there is no evidence to suggest that MRP's are not what they are. MEAL REPLACEMENT SUPPLEMENT
> 
> Quote "Are meal replacement products healthy?
> 
> By law, meal replacement products must provide the recommended amount of nutrients needed for good health and their composition must conform to certain standards defined by a European Directive.


Got a link to the directive mate?

As far as I know supps aint regulated, and you can pretty much place in them what you like.

Could be wrong though.


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