# Scooby's intermediate workout vs. Mark Rippletoes starting strength



## MCCoolGuyFresh (May 5, 2014)

The goal is building muscle mass.

Here's scooby's intermediate workout.

Day 1 - Push Workout
*Bodypart**Exercise**Number sets**Number reps*absrotisserie core workout2 revolutionsn/achest





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12chest





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12shoulders





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12shoulders





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12triceps





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12Weights: 60 minutes & Cardio: 20 minutes - jog, brisk walk or bike 


​
Day 2 - Pull Workout
*Bodypart**Exercise**Number sets**Number reps*lats





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12lats





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12lats





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12biceps





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12biceps





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12Weights: 60 minutes & Cardio: 20 minutes - jog, brisk walk or bike 


​
Day 3 - Legs Workout
*Bodypart**Exercise**Number sets**Number reps*absrotisserie core workout2 revolutionsn/alegs





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12 each leglegs





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12legs





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12legsg





3 sets, 1-2min rest between6-12Weights: 60 minutes & Cardio: 20 minutes - jog, brisk walk or bike

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Here's Marks starting strength

(Workout A)

Squat

Military press

Deadlift/power clean

(Workout B)

Squat

Bench press

Back extension

Chin ups

Week 1 (x means rest day)

AxBxAxx

Week 2

BxAxBxx

Repeat from week 1

Which is better?


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

If you are starting out or are still a relative beginner then do starting strength IMO. Believe me it's a good program, add in chins one day and dips the other at 2x8 and it will work brilliantly


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

I'd do pendlay rows instead of back extensions, I've never seen back extensions wrote in that program before


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

Scoobs talks a lot of sense but the other guys best when starting out IMO


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## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Depends how new you are. If you're a complete beginner, starting strength. 6+ months, Scooby's would be a good shout.


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## Seosamh (Apr 15, 2014)

depends on your goals numbers or looks ???


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## Prince Adam (Mar 17, 2012)

Scooby tends to favour bodybuilding routines

Coach Rip strength training.

Based on that which do you think?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

The routines aren't really comparable since part of the point of Scooby's plan is that it can be done at home without equipment. If you have access to a squat rack I strongly suspect that Scooby would suggest using this, although I haven't got time to hunt around to find out for sure.

Here's a link to Scooby's plan with a bit more discussion and videos for those interested:

http://scoobysworkshop.com/intermediate-workout-plan/


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## Seosamh (Apr 15, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> The routines aren't really comparable since part of the point of Scooby's plan is that it can be done at home without equipment. If you have access to a squat rack I strongly suspect that Scooby would suggest using this, although I haven't got time to hunt around to find out for sure.
> 
> Here's a link to Scooby's plan with a bit more discussion and videos for those interested:
> 
> http://scoobysworkshop.com/intermediate-workout-plan/


scooby says if he goses tot he gyms he moves the benches outa the way and still dosent use the equitment for the exercises for saftey reasons he dosent belive on going past 90 on all exercises basicly if u do u will get injured ???

his routine is mostly isolations it will give u good results if u progress but as a bodybuilder scoobys body is very skinny chicken legs lol

compunds with some isolations will work better

starting strength i wish i hadnt had listened to people to start with them programs jus wasted my time skinny with big legs

go on a split progress at ur own speed not rush to get big numbers and look skinny with strength


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Seosamh said:


> scooby says if he goses tot he gyms he moves the benches outa the way and still dosent use the equitment for the exercises for saftey reasons he dosent belive on going past 90 on all exercises basicly if u do u will get injured ???


Yes, I'm aware of his views on chest/shoulder pressing exercises. It was his views on squats I was unsure of. A quick look on YouTube shows that actually what he generally favours are leg press machines:


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## Seosamh (Apr 15, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Yes, I'm aware of his views on chest/shoulder pressing exercises. It was his views on squats I was unsure of. A quick look on YouTube shows that actually what he generally favours are leg press machines:


thats was what i ment aslo when i said he uses no equtiment apart from dumbells and one or 2 machines i think he mainly holds a dumbel and squats tbh i dont think he is ever in a gym i think he made that to let people know u can still do his workouts even at a gym if u cant buy ur own dumbells or weights he dosent use barbells for squats either for the compression it has on the spine


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

In answer to the original question, unless you are a complete beginner I don't think I'd do either.

I would either try Stronglifts plus chin-ups/pull-ups, chest dips and possibly a bicep exercise, or give Ice Cream Fitness a go:

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout


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## Seosamh (Apr 15, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> In answer to the original question, unless you are a complete beginner I don't think I'd do either.
> 
> I would either try Stronglifts plus chin-ups/pull-ups, chest dips and possibly a bicep exercise, or give Ice Cream Fitness a go:
> 
> http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout


stronglifts and starting strength made my arms go to **** and shoulders i was eating like **** to them programs are for weight loss more than anything u wont build a good body on them unless ur going for 8000 cals a day


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Seosamh said:


> stronglifts and starting strength made my arms go to **** and shoulders i was eating like **** to them programs are for weight loss more than anything u wont build a good body on them unless ur going for 8000 cals a day


Which is why I specifically suggested adding arm work, or recommended ICF because it takes a similar approach... (Not that anyone's arms or shoulders should shrink doing SS. And suggesting they are for weight loss is absurd, that all depends on diet. Plus of course a HUGE number of people have gained muscle following SS and Stronglifts.)


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## MCCoolGuyFresh (May 5, 2014)

Seosamh said:


> stronglifts and starting strength made my arms go to **** and shoulders i was eating like **** to them programs are for weight loss more than anything u wont build a good body on them unless ur going for 8000 cals a day


You're trolling right?

Starting strength is for gaining weight. Mark recommended consuming a gallon of milk a day until you reached 20% bodyfat.

How can you consume 8000 calories a day? To even try that would be seriously unhealthy.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

MCCoolGuyFresh said:


> Mark recommended consuming a gallon of milk a day until you reached 20% bodyfat.


For what it's worth, a US gallon of whole milk (3.785 L) contains about 2460 kcal, which I'd view as seriously excessive on top of a regular diet, and gives results as you've seen on the other thread. I would suggest a much more carefully considered calorie excess. Have a read of this for instance:

http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/bulking-diet-delusion


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## Seosamh (Apr 15, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> For what it's worth, a US gallon of whole milk (3.785 L) contains about 2460 kcal, which I'd view as seriously excessive on top of a regular diet, and gives results as you've seen on the other thread. I would suggest a much more carefully considered calorie excess. Have a read of this for instance:
> 
> http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/bulking-diet-delusion


most who did the gallon of milk all jus became like ballons with tits

google reason why not to do it


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## Seosamh (Apr 15, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> Which is why I specifically suggested adding arm work, or recommended ICF because it takes a similar approach... (Not that anyone's arms or shoulders should shrink doing SS. And suggesting they are for weight loss is absurd, that all depends on diet. Plus of course a HUGE number of people have gained muscle following SS and Stronglifts.)


u can gain muscle on any program if ur a begginer i did stronglifts and it made my arms shrink and big legs i did chins and dips on workout a workout b rotate also and my diet was in check i ate like a pig theres even vids on you tube about it people wanting these body types and asking will full bodys give me it nooooo full bodys cut fat at the most if ur a beginner yea ull make gains on them but as i said u would on any program if u want the body and looks then stay away from them programs at least do push pull legs or somthing


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## Seosamh (Apr 15, 2014)

MCCoolGuyFresh said:


> You're trolling right?
> 
> Starting strength is for gaining weight. Mark recommended consuming a gallon of milk a day until you reached 20% bodyfat.
> 
> How can you consume 8000 calories a day? To even try that would be seriously unhealthy.


i know what them programs are intended to do i wasnt a total beginner when i decided to try them and lost lot mass on upper body thats why i stoped went back on my split people are miss informed lots about these programs well over hyped bull**** tbh if ur a bodybuilder if ur a powerlifter and jus want numbers then its for u simple

each to there own !!!!


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Seosamh said:


> *i wasnt a total beginner* when i decided to try them and lost lot mass on upper body...


I can just about believe that if you had previously followed a (sarcoplasmic) hypertrophy programme you might have lost some upper body size by trying something so different, but I still struggle to be honest. How much weight did you gain whilst following Stronglifts?


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## Seosamh (Apr 15, 2014)

example of a beginner eating and eating and doing the program them programs will make u to fat or to skinny with abs like I say if u a powerliftewr then numbers is ur only goal do these types of training but if ur a bodybuilder I say stay clear of them

http://skinnyfattransformation.com/why-you-shouldnt-do-starting-strength-as-a-beginner/


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

Seosamh said:


> u can gain muscle on any program if ur a begginer i did stronglifts and it made my arms shrink and big legs i did chins and dips on workout a workout b rotate also and my diet was in check i ate like a pig theres even vids on you tube about it people wanting these body types and asking will full bodys give me it nooooo full bodys cut fat at the most if ur a beginner yea ull make gains on them but as i said u would on any program if u want the body and looks then stay away from them programs at least do push pull legs or somthing


Mehdi even says this to be fair: -



Blows my mind why people recommend starting strength to beginners who have a sole aim to improve their body composition. I reckon it would be done much faster on a very small surplus, making use of compound lifts in the HIGHER rep range, as well as not neglecting machines and isolation work, again in the HIGH rep range.


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## Seosamh (Apr 15, 2014)

Sway12 said:


> Mehdi even says this to be fair: -
> 
> 
> 
> Blows my mind why people recommend starting strength to beginners who have a sole aim to improve their body composition. I reckon it would be done much faster on a very small surplus, making use of compound lifts in the HIGHER rep range, as well as not neglecting machines and isolation work, again in the HIGH rep range.


agreed


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Sway12 said:


> Mehdi even says this to be fair: -
> 
> 
> 
> Blows my mind why people recommend starting strength to beginners who have a sole aim to improve their body composition. I reckon it would be done much faster on a very small surplus, making use of compound lifts in the HIGHER rep range, as well as not neglecting machines and isolation work, again in the HIGH rep range.


If you reckon all that then why do you still look the same after 6 months, why haven't you been doing all that?


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## Sway12 (Oct 29, 2013)

I don't look the same. I've gained a small amount of muscle, partly because I was in caloric deficit for the first 3 months of training and mainly because I followed strength training routines instead of a high volume Bb style split.

Also I don't know the reason why my progress hasn't been better since I did everything I was told to do. Maybe I'm an anomaly


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## Mingster (Mar 25, 2011)

IMO the trouble with trying to grow muscle whilst following a small calorie surplus is this...Most trainers, especially beginners, have very little real idea what their maintenance calories actually are in the first place. You can do all the calculations you like on paper, or using a variety of online systems, but getting this right is very difficult. Even if you do, you still have the problem of when to raise your macros as your body weight/muscle composition increases. This again is virtually impossible to do with a small calorific surplus. 9 times out of 10 people, afraid of adding any fat, eat less than they need to grow, or to grow at the optimum rate.

Nobody is suggesting you eat everything in sight and get fat, but, again imo and ime, it is easier to lose a small amount of fat after a sensible bulk than to guesstimate a small calorific surplus and miss out on what little gains we can expect in the first place.


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Sway12 said:


> I don't look the same. I've gained a small amount of muscle, partly because I was in caloric deficit for the first 3 months of training and mainly because I followed strength training routines instead of a high volume Bb style split.
> 
> Also I don't know the reason why my progress hasn't been better since I did everything I was told to do. Maybe I'm an anomaly


Most trainers will tell you that beginners should concentrate on getting strong first not following a high rep pro bb type split.

The fastest way for a beginner to build muscle I to get strong.

If two guys start out and one concentrates on a strength type workout and gets up to a 100kg bench for 3x5 and the other ****s about with high reps and at the end of the year is benching 60-70 for 12 reps I guarantee the first guy will have a bigger chest. The same goes for the other exercises.

Con on here one of the most knowledgeable trainers, a record breaking powerlifter and now has a pro card in bb will tell you to start off by getting as strong as you can to build the most muscle


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Seosamh said:


> example of a beginner eating and eating and doing the program them programs will make u to fat or to skinny with abs like I say if u a powerliftewr then numbers is ur only goal do these types of training but if ur a bodybuilder I say stay clear of them
> 
> http://skinnyfattransformation.com/why-you-shouldnt-do-starting-strength-as-a-beginner/


Criticising the exercise programme for not gaining size is fair enough, but criticising it for making him or anyone else fat is daft. What made him fat was eating too much.

I'm still curious how much weight you gained when you followed Stronglifts by the way?


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I think there are two main reasons that I believe that SS/Stronglifts are useful routines for beginners:

1) They make people learn the important major compound lifts. I also think that 5 rep sets are a good rep range for this, since it is easier to concentrate on the correct form over 5 reps than say 10.

2) As 36-26 posted above, I believe that it is important to gain a certain amount of strength prior to switching to more traditional BB rep ranges to gain more size. No the likes of SS won't produce big size gains on their own, but they enable it to be gained later. This is also my personal experience. I started training with higher rep ranges per set but using such pathetic weights that I achieved very little. This was whilst eating way too much and making myself fat. Doh!

FWIW I do think Stronglifts is better than SS due to the higher volume of the 5x5 routine which will produce greater size increase.


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## Seosamh (Apr 15, 2014)

36-26 said:


> Most trainers will tell you that beginners should concentrate on getting strong first not following a high rep pro bb type split.
> 
> The fastest way for a beginner to build muscle I to get strong.
> 
> ...


most do them programs jus to get big numbers and say the bench 100k with ****ty form or reduclous powerlifter form moving bar about 4 inches cause they have there back arched that much .

most personal trainers talk balls u wana build proper muscle and bodybuild then go on a split u want to eat loads look fat eat normal surplus lookskinny and big legs and have big numbers within few months then do stronglifts


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## Seosamh (Apr 15, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I think there are two main reasons that I believe that SS/Stronglifts are useful routines for beginners:
> 
> 1) They make people learn the important major compound lifts. I also think that 5 rep sets are a good rep range for this, since it is easier to concentrate on the correct form over 5 reps than say 10.
> 
> ...


u can learn the big lifts on a split and will also let u focus more on the muscles i fund when i was doing stronglifts most of my energey went into the squats i read to online u push through it after a week or 2 but heavy squats 3 times a week never again would take legs push pull any day and do a 5 day split when i go on a cycle


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Seosamh said:


> most do them programs jus to get big numbers and say the bench 100k with ****ty form or reduclous powerlifter form moving bar about 4 inches cause they have there back arched that much .
> 
> most personal trainers talk balls u wana build proper muscle and bodybuild then go on a split u want to eat loads look fat eat normal surplus lookskinny and big legs and have big numbers within few months then do stronglifts


What a pile of uneducated $hite. Believe what you want it is of no consequence to me.


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## Seosamh (Apr 15, 2014)

36-26 said:


> What a pile of uneducated $hite. Believe what you want it is of no consequence to me.


wrong its FACT !!!! :ban:

if u dont like peoples responses then dont try to reply and call them uneducated :blowme:


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## 36-26 (Jun 30, 2009)

Seosamh said:


> wrong its FACT !!!! :ban:
> 
> if u dont like peoples responses then dont try to reply and call them uneducated :blowme:


I will reply Joseph, I wouldn't want some young lads coming on here believing the rubbish you are posting so I'll call you on it because it is exactly that, rubbish


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## Seosamh (Apr 15, 2014)

36-26 said:


> I will reply Joseph, I wouldn't want some young lads coming on here believing the rubbish you are posting so I'll call you on it because it is exactly that, rubbish


Ur calling me uneducated when my views are on experience of actually doing the program !!!!

I wish I had not taken te advice of ohhh do sl do ss blaaaa blaaaa

I didn't mean dont reply but don't call out me out on own personal experience of views which I am intitled to if I think it's rubbish that's ur opinion u prob Feed into everything u read on net least I'm honey to say them program's are bull**** for my goals most guys wana get big nice body's do a split end off !!!!!

Anyways have a good day all ;D


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## a.notherguy (Nov 17, 2008)

the best routine is the one you enjoy the most and stick to.

some people just dont like squatting 3x per week so will never stick to starting strength for long enough.

scoobys is a pretty standard push pull legs routine.

both are proven to work when the effort and diet is right so try them both and see which one you are most likely to stick to.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

(I've had a mad week so only just got time to reply.)



Seosamh said:


> u can learn the big lifts on a split and will also let u focus more on the muscles i fund when i was doing stronglifts most of my energey went into the squats...


Yes you can of course learn the mojor compound lifts using other routines, but my contention is that they can be learnt quicker and more effectively using the likes of Stronglifts. This is partly due to the 5-rep range as I mentioned above, but also due to the frequency with which the exercises are performed: 3 days a week for squats, and 3 days every two weeks for deadlifts and bench press. Typical body-part split routines have all of these only trained once per week, with the added downside of lots of additional, far less useful, exercicses being learnt at the same time. As much as you dislike Starting Strength it is hard to argue that Mark Rippetoe doesn't have a huge amount of experience in teaching the major compound lifts, so the fact that he thinks this approachis best is definitely significant in my book.



> but heavy squats 3 times a week never again would take legs push pull any day and do a 5 day split *when i go on a cycle*


You've reminded me of another key reason that I rate the likes of Stronglifts. They introduce the idea of squating three times per week, which for natural trainees is very important IMHO. And bear in mind that the vast majority of new trainees are natural, and would be sensibly encouraged to be by pretty much everyone on even this site. Whole body workouts produce the greatest natural hormonal response, and squats are the single best exercise to do this. Whenever I look at split routines (including PPL) I view the fact that they do not have trainees squating every session as a serious negative. The fact that you are clearly not a natural trainee may also have some bearing on your views of this sort of routine.

Finally there is the issue of your shrinking arms, which appears to be the primary reason that you hate Starting Strength in particular. You've twice declined to comment on your weight gain whilst following this programme so for now I am strongly inclined to think that you lost weight. If you didn't eat enough whilst on the programme, forcing your body into a catabolic state, then the fact that your body reacted by reducing the muscle mass of your arms is not surprising given they aren't a focus of SS. This is particularly the case if you had previously followed a more bodybuilding focused training regimen for your arms, resulting in more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, which is of little benefit to your body for routines like SS.


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## alan_wilson (Feb 25, 2012)

Well after losing all my muscle after chemo treatment im using starting strength in a few weeks to get my self stronger over 12 to 14 weeks .. Then moving into a upper lower bb split

However on the starting strength programme i will be adding some additional arm work.

And after I've done my 3x5 of any exercise I'll add one higher rep set (12/15) but looking for more time under tension and push some blood in there.

I know it says don't mess with the programme.. But that's what im doing.. My log will start in a few weeks and i can genuinely then testify to how well it works


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

Sorry to hear about the chemo Alan and good luck with your recovery.



alan_wilson said:


> And after I've done my 3x5 of any exercise I'll add one higher rep set (12/15) but looking for more time under tension and push some blood in there.
> 
> I know it says don't mess with the programme.. But that's what im doing..


I would urge you to resist 'messing' with the programme by adding your 12-15 rep set for the first few weeks while you get used to it. When you first start to train you will feel more sore following each session while your body gets used to it. My concern with adding the additional set would be that the main effect of it will be to increase DOMS and potentially interfere with the following workout. How much benefit it would offer in terms of size (which I assume is why you are considering it) is probably also debatable, given how comparatively low the weight will need to be.

Adding arm work on the other hand shouldn't be a problem at all if it is done after the main lifts. In case you aren't aware, the latest version of Starting Strength include chin-ups every other workout specifically to add some bicep work.

One final thought. If you are concerned that SS is low volume, you could do Stronglifts instead, which is basically the same but mostly uses 5x5 rather than 3x5.

BTW, did you train before your recent ilness?


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## alan_wilson (Feb 25, 2012)

Yes I've trained all my life mate 

First four weeks i wont add the extra high rep set, as I've had such a long lay off.

Plus I'll be starting with very low weight.. Just to get me moving forward steadily, I've got to use the old cliché of leaving my ego at the door

I never thought my size really reflected my strength to be honest.

But after a nine month lay off from all training.. I hit 145kg Deadlift yesterday.

Bloody daft really as i didn't even warm up... Won't be lifting that again in a hurry


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## alan_wilson (Feb 25, 2012)

I looked at strong lifts and i just didn't favor it

But.. 531 big but boring really took my fancy.. But i think it may be too much for me right now

But ive opted with this

More than anything i just need a foundation of Strength before i move on to hypertrophy Bodybuilding wise


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

You obviously know what you're doing, hope the training goes well for you and you get your strength back quickly  .

(145 kg is a long way off feeble anyway, plenty of men never manage to lift that much!)


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## alan_wilson (Feb 25, 2012)

Ultrasonic said:


> You obviously know what you're doing, hope the training goes well for you and you get your strength back quickly  .
> 
> (145 kg is a long way off feeble anyway, plenty of men never manage to lift that much!)


I can only do what i can do mate.

It may all blow up in my face and i have to do much less! We will see in a few weeks


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