# CJC-1295 & GHRP-6 (Basic Guides)



## 3752

Their has been alot of interest in these new peptides of late i myself have been using these and others for some time now with success...so to end the confusion i thought i would post this article which was written by DatBtrue from ProMuscle and all credit should go to him for his vast knowledge on the subject

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Introduction to the thread

*What is growth hormone?*

*Synthetic Growth Hormone* is an artificially created hormone "identical" to the major naturally produced (endogenous) isoform. It is often referred to by its molecular mass which is 22kDa (kilodaltons) and is made up of a sequence of 191 amino acids (primary structure) with a very specific folding pattern that comprise a three-dimensional structure (tertiary structure). This tertiary structure is subject to potential shape change through a process known as thermal denaturation. While many labs are capable of generating growth hormone (GH) with the proper primary structure not all will be capable of creating a tertiary structure identical to the major naturally occurring growth hormone. The tertiary structure can determine the strength with which the growth hormone molecule binds to a receptor which will in turn affect the "strength" of the intracellular signaling which mediates the events leading to protein transcription, metabolism, IGF-1 creation, etc. It is this inconsistency that accounts in part for the differences in effectiveness of various non-pharmaceutically produced synthetic growth hormone.

*Naturally produced Growth Hormone* is produced in the anterior pituitary and to a far lesser extent in peripheral tissue. It is made up of a blend of isoforms the majority of which is the 22kDa (191 amino acid) variety with which most are familiar. In addition an isoform that is missing the 15 amino acids that interact with the prolactin receptor is also produced. This form is known as 20kDa and although it binds differently to the growth hormone receptor it has been shown to be equally potent to 22kDa. It appears that 20kDa has lower diabetogenic activity then 22kDa. The pituitary releases a blend of these two isoforms with 20kDa averaging perhaps 10% of the total although this percentage increases post-exercise. Currently there is no synthetic produced for external administration for this isoform.

Growth hormone (GH) in the body is released in pulsatile fashion. It has been demonstrated that this pattern promotes growth. The pituitary is capable of rather quickly synthesizing very large amounts of growth hormone which it stores large amounts in both a finished and unfinished form. Adults rarely experience GH pulses (i.e. releases of pituitary stores) that completely deplete these stores. As we age we do not lose the ability to create and store large amounts of growth hormone. Rather we experience a diminished capacity to "instruct" their release. The volume of GH that is released can not be properly equated to the exogenous administration of synthetic GH for the reason that a set of behavioral characteristics accompany natural GH that differ from those of synthetic GH. Among those characteristics are concentrated pulsatile release which upon binding in mass to growth hormone receptors on the surface of cells initiate signaling cascades which mediate growth events by translocating signaling proteins to the nucleus of the cell where protein transcription and metabolic events occur.

These very important signaling pathways desensitize to Growth Hormone's initiating effects and need to experience an absence of Growth Hormone in order to reset and be ready to act again. The presence of GH released in pulsatile fashion is graphed as a wave with the low or no growth hormone period graphed as a trough. Therefore attempting to find a natural GH to synthetic GH equivalency is not very productive because in the end what is probably import is:

- the quantity & quality of intracellular signaling events; and

- the degree to which GH stimulates autocrine/paracrine (locally produced/locally used) muscle IGF-1 & post-exercise its splice variant MGF.

*Synthetic GH versus Natural GH in IUs*

An attempt has been made on my part and can be found at:

#8 - 
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?p=435292Growth Hormone Administration vs. CJC-1295/GHRP-6 + GHRH (part I of II)
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?p=435292

#9 - 
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?p=435300Growth Hormone Administration vs. CJC-1295/GHRP-6 + GHRH (part II of II)
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?p=435300

Rather than demonstrate absolute values this comparison articles should serve to demonstrate that the body can produce pharmacological levels of growth hormone.

*Brief overview of natural GH release*

The initiation of growth hormone release in the pituitary is dependent on a trilogy of hormones:



*Somatostatin*

which is the inhibitory hormone and responsible in large part for the creation of pulsation;

*Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH)*

which is the stimulatory hormone responsible for initiating GH release; and

*Ghrelin*
which is a modulating hormone and in essence optimizes the balance between the "on" hormone & the "off" hormone. Before Ghrelin was discovered the synthetic 
growth hormone releasing peptides
(
GHRPs
) were created and are superior to Ghrelin in that they do not share Ghrelin's lipogenic behavior. These GHRPs are 
GHRP-6
, 
GHRP-2
, 
Hexarelin
and later 
Ipamorelin
all of which behave in similar fashion.

In the aging adult these Ghrelin-mimetics or the GHRPs restore a more youthful ability to release GH from the pituitary as they turn down somatostatin's negative influence which becomes stronger as we age and turn up growth hormone releasing hormone's influence which becomes weaker as we age.

The exogenous administration of Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) creates a pulse of GH release which will be small if administered during a natural GH trough and higher if administered during a rising natural GH wave.

Growth Hormone Releasing Peptides (GHRP-6, GHRP-2, Hexarelin) are capable of creating a larger pulse of GH on their own then GHRH and they do this with much more consistency and predictability without regard to whether a natural wave or trough of GH is currently taking place.

*Synergy of **GHRH **+ **GHRP*

It is well documented and established that the concurrent administration of Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) and a Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide (GHRP-6, GHRP-2 or Hexarelin) results in synergistic release of GH from pituitary stores. In other words if GHRH contributes a GH amount quantified as the number 2 and GHRPs contributed a GH amount quantified as the number 4 the total GH release is not additive (i.e. 2 + 4 = 6). Rather the whole is greater than the sum of the parts such that 2 + 4 = 10.

While the GHRPs (GHRP-6, GHRP-2 and Hexarelin) come in only one half-life form and are capable of generating a GH pulse that lasts a couple of hours re-administration of a GHRP is required to effect additional pulses.

Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) however is currently available in several forms which vary only by their half-lives. Naturally occurring GHRH is either a 40 or 44 amino acid peptide with the bioactive portion residing in the first 29 amino acids. This shortened peptide identical in behavior and half-life to that of GHRH is called Growth Hormone Releasing Factor and is abbreviated as GRF(1-29).

GRF(1-29) is produced and sold as a drug called Sermorelin. It has a short-half life measured in minutes. If you prefer analogies think of this as a Testosterone Suspension (i.e. unestered).

To increase the stability and half-life of GRF(1-29) four amino acid changes where made to its structure. These changes increase the half-life beyond 30 minutes which is more than sufficient to exert a sustained effect which will maximize a GH pulse. This form is often called tetrasubstituted GRF(1-29) (or modified) and unfortunately & confusingly mislabeled as CJC-1295. If you prefer analogies think of this as a Testosterone Propionate (i.e. short-estered).

Note that some may also refer to this as CJC-1295 without the DAC (Drug Affinity Complex).

Frequent dosing of either the aforementioned modified GRF(1-29) or regular GRF(1-29) is required and as previously indicated works synergistically with a GHRP.

In an attempt to create a more convenient long-lasting GHRH, a compound known as CJC-1295 was created. This compound is identical to the aforementioned modified GRF(1-29) with the addition of the amino acid Lysine which links to a non-peptide molecule known as a "Drug Affinity Complex (DAC)". This complex allows GRF(1-29) to bind to albumin post-injection in plasma and extends its half-life to that of days. If you prefer analogies think of this as a Testosterone Cypionate (i.e. long-estered)

CJC-1295 is difficult to produce and expensive to make. As a result it could be cost-prohibitive to use extensively. Modified GRF(1-29) while less convenient is much less expensive to make and because it is a pure peptide the synthesis process is straightforward. It should sell at a fraction of the cost of CJC-1295.

*What follows on this first page of the thread is:*

- A Basic Peptide Primer (which introduces the concept & structure of peptides)

- A Brief Summary of Dosing and Administration (for someone that wants to know the "how to use" straight away)

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The Amino Acid Structures of Peptides discussed in this thread

*Growth Hormone Releasing peptides (**GHRPs**)* (GH pulse initiators):

- 
*GHRP-6*

(His-DTrp-Ala-Trp-DPhe-Lys-NH2)

- 
*GHRP-2*
(
DAla-D-2-Nal-Ala-Trp-DPhe-Lys-NH2
)

- 
*Hexarelin*
(His-D-2-methyl-Trp-Ala-Trp-DPhe-Lys-NH2)

- 
*Ipamorelin*
(
Aib-His-D-2-Nal-DPhe-Lys-NH2
) - 
*Ref-1*


NOTES: 
Aib 
= Aminoisobutyryc acid

D-2-Nal 
= "D" form of 2'-naphthylalanine

*Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (**GHRH**)* (amplifies the GHRP initiated pulse):

- 
*Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH)*
aka 
*GRF(1-44)*
(
Tyr-Ala-Asp-Ala-Ile-Phe-Thr-Asn-Ser-Tyr-Arg-Lys-Val-Leu-Gly-Gln-Leu-Ser-Ala-Arg-Lys-Leu-Leu-Gln-Asp-Ile-Met-Ser-Arg-Gln-Gln-Gly-Glu-Ser-Asn-Gln-Glu-Arg-Gly-Ala-Arg-Ala-Arg-Leu-NH2
) = 
half-life "less then 10 minutes"
, perhaps 
as low as 5 minutes.
- 
*Ref-2*


- 
*GRF(1-29)*
aka 
*Sermorelin*
(
Tyr-Ala-Asp-Ala-Ile-Phe-Thr-Asn-Ser-Tyr-Arg-Lys-Val-Leu-Gly-Gln-Leu-Ser-Ala-Arg-Lys-Leu-Leu-Gln-Asp-Ile-Met-Ser-Arg-NH2
) - the biologically active portion of the 44 amino acid GHRH = 
half-life "less then 10 minutes"
, perhaps 
as low as 5 minutes.
- 
*Ref-3*


- 

*Longer-lasting analogs of *



*GRF(1-29)*


:

-- replace the 2nd amino acid Alanine w/ D-Alanine only to modify GRF(1-29), 


*D-Ala2 GRF(1-29)*




(
Tyr-
DAla
-Asp-Ala-Ile-Phe-Thr-Asn-Ser-Tyr-Arg-Lys-Val-Leu-Gly-Gln-Leu-Ser-Ala-Arg-Lys-Leu-Leu-Gln-Asp-Ile-Met-Ser-Arg-NH2
) = 
half-life "closer to 10 minutes"
- 


*Ref-4*






-- replace the 2nd, 8th, 15th & 27th amino acids & get 


*modified GRF(1-29)*




or CJC-1295 w/o the DAC (i.e. the part that will bind to albumin & make the half-life days) (
Tyr-
DAla
-Asp-Ala-Ile-Phe-Thr-
Gln
-Ser-Tyr-Arg-Lys-Val-Leu-
Ala
-Gln-Leu-Ser-Ala-Arg-Lys-Leu-Leu-Gln-Asp-Ile-
Leu
-Ser-Arg-NH2
) = 
Half-life at least 30 minutes or so
- 


*Ref-5*






-- 


*CJC-1295*




(
Tyr-
DAla
-Asp-Ala-Ile-Phe-Thr-
Gln
-Ser-Tyr-Arg-Lys-Val-Leu-
Ala
-Gln-Leu-Ser-Ala-Arg-Lys-Leu-Leu-Gln-Asp-Ile-
Leu
-Ser-Arg-
Lys-(Maleimidopropionyl)
-NH2
) = 
Half-life measured in days,
- 


*Ref-6*






NOTES: 
Lys
= linker to the Drug Affinity Complex (aka (Maleimidopropionyl))

"Since GH is released in a pulsatile manner and a higher level of GH is observed between 15 and 30 min after subcutaneous administration of GH-RH analogues, hydrolysis by trypsin-like enzymes could not affect the result of stimulation." - 
Potent Trypsin-resistant hGH-RH Analogues, 
JAN IZDEBSKI
, 
J. Peptide Sci. 10: 524-529 (2004)

The analog in the above quoted study resisted degradation for 30 minutes. The quote implies that if your analog can last 30 minutes it has tapped out the potential for a single pulse.

Since another pulse won't be generated for about 2.5 - 3 hours analogs that last more than 30 minutes up to 3 hours are not any more beneficial.

You would need an analog that kept growth hormone releasing hormone around beyond 3 hours to have it trigger a second pulse.

Otherwise dosing the 30 minute analog every 3 hours will maximize GH output OR you could just use an analog such as CJC-1295 which lasts for many days and will trigger several GH pulses a day for several days on a single dose.

References:

*Ref-1*
- 
"lack of effect on ACTH and cortisol plasma levels"
- 
Ipamorelin, the first selective growth hormone secretagogue , 
K Raun
, 
European Journal of Endocrinology, 1996 Vol 139, Issue 5, 552-561

*Ref-2*
- 
Rapid enzymatic degradation of growth hormone-releasing hormone by plasma in vitro and in vivo to a biologically inactive product cleaved at the NH2 terminus, 
Frohman LA
, 
J Clin Invest. 1986 78:906-913
and 
Incorporation of D-Ala2 in Growth Hormone-Releasing Hormone-( l-29)-NH2 Increases the Half-Life and Decreases Metabolic Clearance in Normal Men, 
STEVEN SOULE
, 
Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 1994 Vol. 79, No. 4

*Ref-3*
- 
Rapid enzymatic degradation of growth hormone-releasing hormone by plasma in vitro and in vivo to a biologically inactive product cleaved at the NH2 terminus, 
Frohman LA
, 
J Clin Invest. 1986 78:906-913
and 
Incorporation of D-Ala2 in Growth Hormone-Releasing Hormone-( l-29)-NH2 Increases the Half-Life and Decreases Metabolic Clearance in Normal Men, 
STEVEN SOULE
, 
Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 1994 Vol. 79, No. 4

*Ref-4*
- 
Incorporation of D-Ala2 in Growth Hormone-Releasing Hormone-( l-29)-NH2 Increases the Half-Life and Decreases Metabolic Clearance in Normal Men, 
STEVEN SOULE
, 
Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 1994 Vol. 79, No. 4

*Ref-5*
- 
See: 
Posts within this thread

*Ref-6*
- 
See: 
Posts within this thread

*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*

A Brief Summary of Dosing and Administration

*Dosing **GHRPs*

The saturation dose in most studies on the GHRPs (GHRP-6, GHRP-2, Ipamorelin & Hexarelin) is defined as either 100mcg or 1mcg/kg.

What that means is that 100mcg will saturate the receptors fully, but if you add another 100mcg to that dose only 50% of that portion will be effective. If you add an additional 100mcg to that dose only about 25% will be effective. Perhaps a final 100mcg might add a little something to GH release but that is it.

So 100mcg is the saturation dose and you could add more up to 300 to 400mcg and get a little more effect.

A 500mcg dose will not be more effective then a 400mcg, perhaps not even more effective then 300mcg.

The additional problems are desensitization & cortisol/prolactin side-effects.

Ipamorelin
is about as efficacious as GHRP-6 in causing GH release but even at higher dose (above 100mcg) it does not create prolactin or cortisol.

GHRP-6
at the saturation dose 100mcg does not really increase prolactin & cortisol but may do so slightly at higher doses. This rise is still within the normal range.

GHRP-2 
is a little more efficacious then GHRP-6 at causing GH release but at the saturation dose or higher may produce a slight to moderate increase in prolactin & cortisol. This rise is still within the normal range although doses of 200 - 400mcg might make it the high end of the normal range.

Hexarelin 
is the most efficacious of all of the GHRPs at causing an increase in GH release. However it has the highest potential to also increase cortisol & prolactin. This rise will occur even at the 100mcg saturation dose. This rise will reach the higher levels of what is defined as normal.

*Desensitization*

GHRP-6
can be used at saturation dose (100mcg) three or four times a day without risk of desensitization.

GHRP-2 
probably at saturation dose several times a day will not result in desensitization.

Hexarelin
has been shown to bring about desensitization but in a long-term study the pituitary recovered its sensitivity so that there was not long-term loss of sensitivity at saturation dose. However dosing Hexarelin even at 100mcg three times a day will likely lead to some down regulation within 14 days.

If desensitization were to ever occur for any of these GHRPs simply stopping use for several days will remedy this effect.

Chronic use of GHRP-6 at 100mcg dosed several times a day every day will not cause pituitary problems, nor significant prolactin or cortisol problems, nor desensitize.

*GHRH*

Now Sermorelin, GHRH (1-44) and GRF(1-29) all are basically GHRH and have a short half-life in plasma because of quick cleavage between the 2nd & 3rd amino acid. This is no worry naturally because this hormone is secreted from the hypothalamus and travels a short distance to the underlying anterior pituitary and is not really subject to enzymatic cleavage. The release from the hypothalamus and binding to somatotrophs (pituitary cells) happens quickly.

However when injected into the body it must circulate before finding its way to the pituitary and so within 3 minutes it is already being degraded.

That is why GHRH in the above forms must be dosed high to get an effect.

*GHRH **analogs *

All GHRH analogs swap Alanine at the 2nd position for D-Alanine which makes the peptide resistant to quick cleavage at that position. This means analogs will be more effective when injected at smaller dosing.

The analog tetra or 4 substituted GRF(1-29) sometimes called CJC w/o the DAC or referred to by me as modified GRF(1-29) has other amino acid modifications. They are a glutamine (Gln or Q) at the 8-position, alanine (Ala or A) at the 15-position, and a leucine (Leu or L) at the 27-position.

The alanine at the 8th position enhances bioavailability but the other two amino substitutions are made to enhance the manufacturing process (i.e. create manufacturing stability).

For use in vivo, in humans, the GHRH analog known as CJC w/o the DAC or tetra (4) substituted GRF(1-29) or modified GRF(1-29) is a very effective peptide with a half-life probably 30+ minutes.

That is long enough to be completely effective.

The saturation dose is also defined as 100mcg.

*Problem w/ Using any **GHRH** alone *

The problem with using a GHRH even the stronger analogs is that they are only highly effective when somatostatin is low (the GH inhibiting hormone). So if you unluckily administer in a trough (or when a GH pulse is not naturally occurring) you will add very little GH release. If however you luckily administer during a rising wave or GH pulse (somatostatin will not be active at this point) you will add to GH release.

*Solution is **GHRP** + **GHRH analog *

The solution is simple and highly effective. You administer a GHRH analog with a GHRP. The GHRP creates a pulse of GH. It does this through several mechanisms. One mechanism is the reduction of somatostatin release from the hypothalamus, another is a reduction of somatostatin influence at the pituitary, still another is increased release of GHRH from the brain and finally GHRPs act on the same pituitary cells (somatotrophs) as do GHRHs but use a different mechanism to increase cAMP formation which will further cause GH release from somatotroph stores.

GHRH also has a way of reciprocally reinforcing GHRPs action.

The result is a synergistic GH release.

The GH is not additive it is synergistic. By that I mean:

If 
GHRH 
by itself will cause a GH release valued at 2

and 
GHRP
itself will cause a GH release valued at 5

Together the GH is not 7 (5+2) it turns out to say 16!

*A solid protocol*

A solid protocol would be to use a GHRP + a GHRH analog pre-bed (to support the nightime pulse) and once or twice throughout the day.

For anti-aging, deep restful restorative sleep, the once at night dosing is all you need. For an adult aged 40+ it is enough to restore GH to youthful levels.

However for bodybuilding or fatloss or injury repair multiple dosings can be effective.

The GHRH analog can be used at 100mcg and as high as you want without problems.

The GHRP-6 can always be used at 100mcg w/o problems but a dose of 200mcg will probably be fine as well.

Again desensitization is something to keep an eye on particularly with the highest doses of GHRP-2 and all doses of Hexarelin.

So 100 - 200mcg of GHRP-6 + 100 - 500mcg+ of a 
GHRH analog 
taken together will be effective.

This may be dosed several times a day to be highly effective.

A solid approach is a bit more conservative at 100mcg of 
GHRP-6
+ 100mcg of a 
GHRH analog
dosed either once, twice, three or four times a day.

When dosing multiple times a day at least 3 hours should separate the administrations.

The difference is once a day dosing pre-bed will give a youthful restorative amount of GH while multiple dosing and or higher levels will give higher GH & IGF-1 levels when coupled with diet & exercise will lead to muscle gain & fatloss.

*Dose w/o food *

Administration should ideally be done on either an empty stomach or with only protein in the stomach. Fats & carbs blunt GH release. So administer the peptides and wait about 20 minutes (no more then 30 but no less then 15 minutes) to eat. AT that point the GH pulse has about hit the peak and you can eat what you want.


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## Guest

Great post Paul.


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## Dragon555

awesome post Pscarb very good info there all in one.


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## geezuz

So those peptides only makes the own GH release, no need for IGF or GH? Brilliant. Great post.


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## hackskii

OMG, fantastic, I am oh so wanting to try these so bad.

Nice one Paul...


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## Rebus

Great great great post and gets you thinking eh....


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## 3752

these peptides really work well together i have been following Dabt advice for the last 6-7 months with some good results


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## bkoz

How do we now for sure that these peptides are,nt just placebo.Igf lr3 splits muscle cells.Then juice swells them up.Why are,nt we all packing on size at a decent rate every 4 or so months..I,ve stoped using igflr3.I,m starting to think its all placebo.JMHO..

Oh and pegmgf i used and nothing.Did,nt feel a thing same with ghrp6.


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## rs007

bkoz said:


> How do we now for sure that these peptides are,nt just placebo.Igf lr3 splits muscle cells.Then juice swells them up.Why are,nt we all packing on size at a decent rate every 4 or so months..I,ve stoped using igflr3.I,m starting to think its all placebo.JMHO..


I can see your point - after all, if they were even half as effective as touted on paper, there would be IFBB pros in every street by now. But there is not.

Its my belief that a lot of inconsistent or downright sh1t is coming out of china. Not all, but a fiar amount. Any time you give someone the opportunity to make money, some will rip the pi$s

Could be you were just using crap?


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## rs007

PS reps to Paul on recharge, I know you didnt write, but cheers for bringing to the board!


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## 3752

bkoz said:


> How do we now for sure that these peptides are,nt just placebo.Igf lr3 splits muscle cells.Then juice swells them up.Why are,nt we all packing on size at a decent rate every 4 or so months..I,ve stoped using igflr3.I,m starting to think its all placebo.JMHO..
> 
> Oh and pegmgf i used and nothing.Did,nt feel a thing same with ghrp6.


well there are many sources for all these peptides so this is where you need to look first if you get nothing....

firstly IGF1-Lr3 splices into MGF at the muscle cell which creates new muscle cells from stem cells....now this procedure does not create huge gains and never has done anyone claiming so are lying the biggest limiting factor with IGF-1 is the saturation issue this comes from either high dose or duration or a combination of both....i have used it for 16 weeks at 60-80 mcg's 3 x week and had increased pumps throughout from this 16 weeks i may have put on a pound or two but this is new muscle not just enlarging existing those looking for huge gains should pend their money on a tub of Oxy....

as for GHRP and MGF can i ask how long you used them for and how you used them as both have a huge impact on results...plus what results where you expecting?

i have no doubt that there is some sources who sell placebo just to make money but there are some significant side effects for peptides like IGF-1Lr3 that will show it is the real deal the pump being one of them if you did not get this then i would question your source if you did get this but feel disappointed with the results then i would lower the expectation you have for the product.....

it is clear that there is alot of hype around these peptides at the moment and most of the hype is crap no peptide will give you the mass a simple D/bol cycle will as RS has rightly pointed out if this was true we would all be Pro's......what i like about these peptides at my stage of development is that i can use less gear yet still maintain my size....


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## bkoz

Cheers for such a responce.I,ve allways got my stuff from mr.But them american forums rave on about massive gain.I think reading or there crap made me expect to much..

And i,m sick of throwing money away...Pegmgf was twice a week for 2months and i did,nt get or notice a great dif in the pump on igf i felt tired fist few days but that could mean a number of things.I do get pumped real easy...I,ve def been reading two much american forums...


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## hackskii

Pscarb said:


> well there are many sources for all these peptides so this is where you need to look first if you get nothing....
> 
> firstly IGF1-Lr3 splices into MGF at the muscle cell which creates new muscle cells from stem cells....now this procedure does not create huge gains and never has done anyone claiming so are lying the biggest limiting factor with IGF-1 is the saturation issue this comes from either high dose or duration or a combination of both....i have used it for 16 weeks at 60-80 mcg's 3 x week and had increased pumps throughout from this 16 weeks i may have put on a pound or two but this is new muscle not just enlarging existing those looking for huge gains should pend their money on a tub of Oxy....
> 
> as for GHRP and MGF can i ask how long you used them for and how you used them as both have a huge impact on results...plus what results where you expecting?
> 
> i have no doubt that there is some sources who sell placebo just to make money but there are some significant side effects for peptides like IGF-1Lr3 that will show it is the real deal the pump being one of them if you did not get this then i would question your source if you did get this but feel disappointed with the results then i would lower the expectation you have for the product.....
> 
> it is clear that there is alot of hype around these peptides at the moment and most of the hype is crap no peptide will give you the mass a simple D/bol cycle will as RS has rightly pointed out if this was true we would all be Pro's......what i like about these peptides at my stage of development is that i can use less gear yet still maintain my size....


Nice post as usual mate.

On IGF-1 LR3, I noticed some of the most freaky vascularity ever, also was dieting at the time and once I started that, weight loss stalled big time.

But, if I hadnt known better I was getting gains.

Pumps were freaky, vascularity was freaky, all in all I rather liked it myself, but you have to remember if one was to get hyperplasia, even those cells need to grow bigger and that does not happen over night.

Remember, if done right shot bi-laterally into the muscle worked, no doubt gains would be better or not compromised.

I like GH love the stuff myself and feel due to age factors I probably gain better with less amounts than those of a younger persuasion.

I have not tried alot of peptides but I do want to and they are not illegal to me and domestic sources as well.


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## bkoz

I,m gonna give the peptides a run when i,m clean.So i can see how thwy work without any thing else in my system.


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## 3752

hackskii said:


> Nice post as usual mate.
> 
> On IGF-1 LR3, I noticed some of the most freaky vascularity ever, also was dieting at the time and once I started that, weight loss stalled big time.
> 
> But, if I hadnt known better I was getting gains.
> 
> Pumps were freaky, vascularity was freaky, all in all I rather liked it myself, but you have to remember if one was to get hyperplasia, even those cells need to grow bigger and that does not happen over night.
> 
> Remember, if done right shot bi-laterally into the muscle worked, no doubt gains would be better or not compromised.
> 
> I like GH love the stuff myself and feel due to age factors I probably gain better with less amounts than those of a younger persuasion.
> 
> I have not tried alot of peptides but I do want to and they are not illegal to me and domestic sources as well.


cheers mate....

when your ready let me know i have some god cycles to run which can include GH or not mate...


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## fugi2000

pscarb, are you using modified GRF( 1-29) or real cjc-1295? ive looked at DatB guide and the only protocol he recommends is for the short acting peptide without DAC, i bought from different sources cjc with and without DAC and had them lab tested, the source without DAC was 92% and the with DAC source was 95% pure. Is there a protocol you can recommend for real cjc?


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## 3752

well real CJC-1295 is long analog can be jabbed 2-3 times a week and will be floating around when you use the GHRP-6 3 x day due to the extended half life of real CJC-1295 there is no need to jab it multiple times a day....

i am reliably informed their is no real CJC-1295 being sold out of china only the shorter version which has a 6-8hrs half life so with this version multiple daily injections would be best...


----------



## tommy y

good post paul, just got some of these peptides myself. paul have u found you get better results from using these as opposed to gh, igf, peg???? i am just bout to come off my rebound cycle so was lookin at running igf an peg along with my gh when i come off as a way of maintanance, but if results are as good or better with cjc an ghrp then ill go with that, obviously results are down to the individual an varyin factors such as diet, trainin, rest will affect results massively. but i got all those boxed off so am lookin forward to some good results, wat protocol do you use paul whilst using these?


----------



## 3752

not better results Tom but not much worse.....it is hard to explain one thing though synthetic GH will cause your pituarty to be lazy using these products will help revitalise it as they cause/amplify natty GH release....

you will get more bang for your buck by combining all the peptides whilst off gear i have a peptide cycle that has worked well for others as well as myself drop me a mail at [email protected] and i will let you have it mate......


----------



## maxjenics

Hi Paul

I've just done some GH and IGF during weeks 3-6 of my post contest PCT (which included HCG, Clomid and tamoxifen).

Due to still being lean I opted for a GH schedule in burst fashion doing 16iu post w/o on 2 or 3 non consecutive training days per week, along with 100mcg igf on the same days split 50mcg on rising (split 25mcg each bi-laterally into the large bopypart i'd work later that day), and 50mcg post w/o split 25mcg bi-laterally into the smaller bodypart just worked.

I managed to increase my lean body mass by 1.5Kg, whilst still remaining at 7-8% bodyfat with much improved vascularity in particular. Diet is tightly controlled.

My question is this: I am swapping to a CJC + GHRP6 combination as you have done for the next 4-6 weeks before I go back on cycle with anabolics, but was wondering whether I should still do them in a burst fashion as I did with the GH and igf, or should I run them every day? You dont make it clear if you run them everyday (or I missed that part).

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Cheers


----------



## 3752

it is good to see you have gained from using both GH/IGF in this way i also use it in a burst fashion and get good results....

when i used GHRP/CJC i was using GH 3 x week (M/W/F) so i used the GHRP/CJC mix on the days i was not doing GH at a dose of 100mcg's of each 3 x day.....you can use it everyday with no problem of desensitization in the time period you have stated...


----------



## hilly

i used it everyday with good results. the apetite increase is a nightmare for some and blessing for others depends on the person. i was trying to control my apetite and it makes you very hungry. helps you sleep great as well.

Becareful with them together tho as they made me fill up with water within a week and a friend of mine has just had the same experience from using both at 100mcg of each twice a day.


----------



## 3752

hilly2008 said:


> Becareful with them together tho as they made me fill up with water within a week and a friend of mine has just had the same experience from using both at 100mcg of each twice a day.


this has never happened to me i am suprised by the reaction maybe your using to much mate


----------



## hilly

i only added in 60mcg of the cjc to my 100mcg dose of ghrp6 that i was already taking. it was very strange. not sure wether i was extra sensitive to it during rebound but ive read thru my journa twice and that addition was the only change.


----------



## forddee

I have a few Q.

How do you keep mixed GHRP ,(you keep unmixed frozen ? )

How many days per week do you use GHRP for ?

Thanks Daz


----------



## Guest

forddee said:


> I have a few Q.
> 
> How do you keep mixed GHRP ,(you keep unmixed frozen ? )
> 
> How many days per week do you use GHRP for ?
> 
> Thanks Daz


In the fridge.

Probably every day or every other day, the solution will not last forever and for most people your looking at 20 shots from each amp, so thats 10 straight days using 2 shots per day.


----------



## maxjenics

Pscarb said:


> it is good to see you have gained from using both GH/IGF in this way i also use it in a burst fashion and get good results....
> 
> when i used GHRP/CJC i was using GH 3 x week (M/W/F) so i used the GHRP/CJC mix on the days i was not doing GH at a dose of 100mcg's of each 3 x day.....you can use it everyday with no problem of desensitization in the time period you have stated...


Thanks for the reply Paul.

I think I will stick to intermittent use for the first couple of weeks as I have been having joint pains after the first few shots I have done this last week, even after 16iu GH on non-consec days the week before!

I am hoping the joint problems are from excess endogenous GH secretion, as I did have pains when I first tried GH as I reasoned I had the dose too high to begin with (4--6 iu per day).

Relating to the other posts about WATER RETENTION, I have had no problems with this on the CJC/GHRP combo, EXCEPT at the places where I inject the stuff...the skin goes quite thick and swollen for a few hours at at time.

If you are still reading Paul, is it OK to mix the CJC/GHRP in the same pin?

Cheers


----------



## 3752

yes mate it is fine to mix in the same pin it is also ok to inject IM this will not cause the same reaction as Sub-Q shots...

the joint pain from the GH is your body getting used to the amount because of the infrequency of the shots this may not settle down as before and you might need to lower the shots a tad


----------



## coyneteesside

wow Im starting to cycle this ghrp-6 next week, the advice given here is spot on! Thanks for the brilliant post!

Cheers


----------



## borostu82

coyneteesside said:


> wow Im starting to cycle this ghrp-6 next week, the advice given here is spot on! Thanks for the brilliant post!
> 
> Cheers


its funny Chris i tried to explain to Lee (use to train with bri S) what Ghrp 6 does and he told me i was wrong lol As some experianced BB told him diff, i basically told him what the first post had down


----------



## mel326

I have read that the best dosage for CJC-1295 +GHRP-6 is 100mcg 3times/day? Is it correct? And do they refer to CJC-1295 with DAC or without?? Is still the same dose? And if yes, how Is that possible (... half-life is supposedly longer in DAC-version..).

I'll appreciate any prompt reply on this topic.

Cheers

Mel


----------



## jordanwlkp

mel326 said:


> I have read that the best dosage for CJC-1295 +GHRP-6 is 100mcg 3times/day? Is it correct? And do they refer to CJC-1295 with DAC or without?? Is still the same dose? And if yes, how Is that possible (... half-life is supposedly longer in DAC-version..).
> 
> I'll appreciate any prompt reply on this topic.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Mel


is very hard to get long half-life cjc as its expensive to make it so most of it is short half-life so thats why best jabb it 3xed with ghrp


----------



## mel326

jordanwlkp said:


> is very hard to get long half-life cjc as its expensive to make it so most of it is short half-life so thats why best jabb it 3xed with ghrp


I've got already CJC-1295 with DAC (plus GHRP-6). Not really expensive though (since I am in China right now..) I can't run tests on the coumpound so I.m gonna have to try it first. Still my question though. 3times/day or less?


----------



## 3752

the probability of you having CJC is low as it is very exspensive to produce and very fragiel 99% of CJC sold is actually MOD GRF 1-29 which is in fact better for the purpose you would use it combined with GHRP as CJC has a long half life and causes GH Bleed.....

as for the dose the saturation dose is 100mcg for a 100kg man so 1mcg per kg this means that you can use double the dose but the results will not be double in fact studies have shown using 200mcg will give back 127% so only a 27% increase....


----------



## StephenC

dutch_scott said:


> woah
> 
> love this
> 
> perfectly set out.
> 
> i learnt alot
> 
> reps paul
> 
> would one use say ghrp6 then 15 mins later synth gh say 5ius, then ghrp2/6 to ride a pulse as u stated or would this not work?


Scott I believe the max is reported to around 4iu per pep shot to "fool" the body into believing the natural pulse is higher than it is.

As for secondary use of ghrp, the pituary, from what i've read takes around 4 hours to "reset" to allow the ghrp to work again.

More regular dosing is going to produce better results than higher dosed and less frequent shots as Paul says above another 100mcg at a single shot is only 27% more effective.

What I'm currently contemplating as i've posted elsewhere is ghrp2 + mod grf + synth gh at 15 mins later at 6am, 10am, 2pm, 6pm and then ghrp + ghrh at 10pm.

I'll start at a lowish dose, ie 100mcg ghrp + 50mcg ghrh + 1iu gh at each shot tapering upto 250mcg ghrp + 150mcg ghrh and 2.5iu per shot over a period of a few weeks during my show prep.

The end leading me to 10iu synth gh per day + enough peptides to produce hopefully 10iu of natural gh.


----------



## 3752

i prefer to use synthetic GH and GHRP/GRF on seperate days i hav tried them together through the day using the GH after the peptide shots and found no real difference in results , i feel that using all together on one day is complicated and does not in the end fool the body as this is nye on impossible......

i normally would use GH am/pm then day after GHRP2/GRF 1-29 2 or 3 times a day at a 80mcg/100mcg split works for me so i see no need to mess.....

i have just started on the blast method today so no peptides until next week....


----------



## big_jim_87

Pscarb said:


> i prefer to use synthetic GH and GHRP/GRF on seperate days i hav tried them together through the day using the GH after the peptide shots and found no real difference in results , i feel that using all together on one day is complicated and does not in the end fool the body as this is nye on impossible......
> 
> i normally would use GH am/pm then day after GHRP2/GRF 1-29 2 or 3 times a day at a 80mcg/100mcg split works for me so i see no need to mess.....
> 
> i have just started on the blast method today so no peptides until next week....


this is what i was thinking of doing my self eod with each on ther own day glad you like so will give it a go soon

atm just ghrp2 300mcg per shot amounts of shots differ tho is this too much in one go? from 1st post it made it sound like 3-400mcg was top wack as 500mcg makes no diff


----------



## big_jim_87

oh i lied igf 50mcg pre work out and 30iu slow slin at breaky


----------



## mel326

Pscarb said:


> the probability of you having CJC is low as it is very exspensive to produce and very fragiel 99% of CJC sold is actually MOD GRF 1-29 which is in fact better for the purpose you would use it combined with GHRP as CJC has a long half life and causes GH Bleed.....
> 
> as for the dose the saturation dose is 100mcg for a 100kg man so 1mcg per kg this means that you can use double the dose but the results will not be double in fact studies have shown using 200mcg will give back 127% so only a 27% increase....


Once Again. I am in China right now. Buying CJC-1295 with DAC is NO PROBLEM (hence do not need sourse from you) and absolutely cheap. If I understand you are suggesting me of treating w/DAC as if it was w/o, is that right? Why if the compound was actually the real thing and I was injecting 3 times a day? Would that give me sides? Vanishing the effects?

Does anyone really have sci and r.l. data on it?


----------



## 3752

big_jim_87 said:


> this is what i was thinking of doing my self eod with each on ther own day glad you like so will give it a go soon
> 
> atm just ghrp2 300mcg per shot amounts of shots differ tho is this too much in one go? from 1st post it made it sound like 3-400mcg was top wack as 500mcg makes no diff


yes mate i think 300mcg in one shot is to much and a waste to be fair only because of the return not being 3 x as much as 100mcg.....i got decent results from 2 x 150mcg a day and will probably do this when i am off my blast week next week as 3 x a day is not practical for me....



mel326 said:


> Once Again. I am in China right now. Buying CJC-1295 with DAC is NO PROBLEM (hence do not need sourse from you) and absolutely cheap. If I understand you are suggesting me of treating w/DAC as if it was w/o, is that right? Why if the compound was actually the real thing and I was injecting 3 times a day? Would that give me sides? Vanishing the effects?
> 
> Does anyone really have sci and r.l. data on it?


firstly i never offered you a source .....and my original point still stands it does not matter where you are the fact still remains that CJC is very fragile and exspensive to produce so if your paying peanuts chances are it is not real CJC with or without the DAC......if and this is a big if it is CJC then more than 3 times a week is not needed due to the half life.....


----------



## Aftershock

I know the standard protocol for CJC and GHRP is to shoot at least 15 min before eating and ideally without carbs or fats in your system.

Now I fully understand the not having carbs in your system bit as carbs blunt GH release, but its almost impossible not to have fats in your system (due to the long digestion), at any time other than before breakfast.

I don't really understand the logic behind shooting without fats anyway. Can someone explain this?


----------



## 3752

the theory is the same Aftershock that fats blunt the output of GH but i do agree with you concerning fats all i make sure is that i have not eaten them around the shot....as i mentioned above i think many over complicate things and look to deeply into things sometimes....


----------



## hackskii

Pscarb said:


> the theory is the same Aftershock that fats blunt the output of GH but i do agree with you concerning fats all i make sure is that i have not eaten them around the shot....as i mentioned above i think many over complicate things and look to deeply into things sometimes....


Not to sure about that one brotha.

It is insulin that blunts GH production, glucagon bumps GH release.

Carbs = no

Protein = yes

Fats = should have no effects on insulin.


----------



## 3752

Scott i get alot of my knowledge like others by reading Dats threads on his board and he clearly indicaters that fats do in fact blunt GH release i have no doubt that you are correct that insulin does and that fats have no influence on insulin but that does not mean they have no effect on GH release...


----------



## big_jim_87

so would it not be a good idea to run ghrp with a slow slin? i have for the last 2days


----------



## 3752

i would certainly run GHRP with slin i would never run slin without either GH or the peps


----------



## Aftershock

hackskii said:


> Not to sure about that one brotha.
> 
> It is insulin that blunts GH production, glucagon bumps GH release.
> 
> Carbs = no
> 
> Protein = yes
> 
> Fats = should have no effects on insulin.


http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/peptides-growth-factors/37381-dats-cjc-1295-ghrp-6-basic-guides-4.html#post445574

"You should always try to admininster the CJC/GHRP first and wait a bit before eating.

The reason?

Unlike synthetic GH we are depending on the body to make GH for us. Once GH has been made and is circulating great...but we need to get it made first.

The studies show that circulating fatty acids can really inhibit the production of GHRH and carbs to a lesser extent.

The studies show that circulating fatty acids only blunt but do not inhibit the action of GHRPs. Carbs blunt but to a lesser extent.

It can be argued soundly that it doesn't matter because the CJC (GHRH) is not being made it is being injected. All it needs to do is act on the pituitary...so even in the presence of food it should still function.

However some of GHRP-6s benefit is inducing GHRH release from the hypothalamus. In addition food may blunt some of the pituitary action of GHRH.

So it is best to wait a bit.

How long?

Imagine or refer back to the release curves. GH release happens pretty quickly with either peptide or both together. Within the first 5 minutes the pulse of GH starts to rapidly rise and does so until it peaks at about the 30 minute mark. So I would think that you should always wait at least 10 minutes post administration to eat and if you have the time up to 30 minutes.

In the morning and PWO I administer CJC/GHRP-6 on an empty stomach and wait for 30 minutes. Then my insulin shot (if that happens to be part of my protocol at the time) and I eat.

However pre-bed I usually have plenty of fats in my system. I often (when not dieting) have peanut butter or some combo of fats/protein. I always wait at least 30 minutes after eating my last snack before administering the CJC/GHRP and going to bed.

I don't think the peanut butter in my system really effected my night-time GH release. I've been doing it this way for months and I think it works fine. No night-time hunger and I don't think it interferes with the GH release.

All this to say ...just give yourself a little time between administration & eating. If it is convienent to go 30 minutes do it...if not don't go that long.

Part of the beauty of CJC-1295 is that it stays around. So it is always going to continually act on the pituitary to release GH no matter that you are sometimes eating...

ERRATUM (1/20/2009): Clarification, fats including peanut butter should be avoided well BEFORE administration of peptides. I do not eat fats within a few hours of administration. "


----------



## hackskii

Im lost.

As far as I can remember it is insulin that blunts GH.

Bear with me on this for one min.

When insulin is high, glucagon is low, and visa versa.

When insulin is present lipolysis stops, but when GH is present and insulin is low then lipolysis happens.

Monounsaturated fats have zero effect on insulin, hense the peanut butter he suggests.

This is one reason why ketogenic diets are so effective as insulin is not playing the fat stopping game here.

Sure, people that eat less tend to have higher GH output, so sure food plays a part here but the pathways for energy from carbs and fats are diffrent.

Diabetics fair well on high fat low carb diets due to their lack of response from endo insulin.

So, you guys talk about using peptides and slin, that I feel is a bad combo, I cant find the article I read on this very topic but basicly when you guys use both GH high dose and slin you dont get CTS.

Well, did it occour to any of you that you negate the benefits of one when they are polar opposites?

GH is high (endo) insulin is low, when insulin is high, GH is low.

Glucagon which is kind of the opposite of insulin tends to have higher GH output during this time it is high.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1248486

Glucagon in the study had two peaks, one in 30 minutes by a direct effect and the next one in 120 minutes, so no doubt the numbers match with the 30 minute in above article.

But, seriously I feel it is a bad idea to use slin and peptides or synthetic GH together, the synergy is best kept apart.

For fat loss insulin is anabolic, for anabolism, glucagon lipolyptic, see how these do not work together?

If DAT suggests keeping fats and carbs away from the peptide jabs, then why add insulin which would be the very same thing that we are trying to stop in the first place?

If lets say monounsaturated fats have no effect on insulin, I totally fail to see how it would blunt the release of GH.

GHRP-6 works on the ghrelin receptors, but ghrelin spikes in a fasted state, as ghrelin is mainly produced in a distinct endocrine cell of the stomach, no doubt a signal from the fasted state, this is when GH spikes.

GHRP-6 works on the ghrelin receptors and no doubt this is the reason why guys get hungry on this peptide, it basicly says your belly is empty, and the reason why this peptide spikes endo GH production.

Snip

In conclusion, we have shown that fasting leads to a

diurnal ghrelin rhythm that cannot be explained by

changes in insulin, glucose or free fatty acid levels.

These changes in serum ghrelin levels during fasting

are followed by similar changes in serum GH concentrations,

indicating that ghrelin is the driving force of

increased GH secretion during fasting. By using the

GH receptor antagonist pegvisomant we also provide

indirect evidence that these changes in serum ghrelin

levels are not regulated by the GH receptor. Finally,

we found that the administration of the synthetic

GHS, GHRP-6, was followed by a decrease of peak ghrelin

levels, but this effect could only be observed after

several hours, suggesting that ghrelin concentrations

are, at least partially, regulated by a long-loop negative

auto-feedback control.


----------



## standardflexer

Hackskii,

Theres a lot of info in that post ive been trying to get for a long time, thank you for the post.


----------



## hackskii

standardflexer said:


> Hackskii,
> 
> Theres a lot of info in that post ive been trying to get for a long time, thank you for the post.


But, I dont know much of anything regarding peptide stuff.

I am using it right now, not impressed really, but my joints are feeling stiff for pushing stuff.

But, I have not been taking my fish oils so, cant say really for sure..........

Under massive stress right now being on strike after 30 years of employment.

Going on 4 weeks but its all good.


----------



## big_jim_87

hhhmmm..... well so far i have done 3-4x2-300mcg a day for just under 2weeks i may be doing my pre bed timing wrong what i do is jab ghrp2 30mins l8er 6eggs then bed....

i have very little experiance with peps but when i ran gh at only 8iu eod with slin pw i deff felt it working my joints were very stiff and for some reason i would get a tingling sensation in my fingeres a little like pins n needles but a bit diff.... loved this cycle was full 24/7 gr8 pumps! and just felt real up beat.

i know synth gh is diff as we dnt need to make it in the body as its made for us we just jab but with the slin the synth gh worked well for me.

not fealing a lot on ghrp2 as of yet but early days so.... maybe ill go back to novo slin and keep timing of ghrp and slin sep?


----------



## standardflexer

hackskii said:


> But, I dont know much of anything regarding peptide stuff.
> 
> I am using it right now, not impressed really, but my joints are feeling stiff for pushing stuff.
> 
> But, I have not been taking my fish oils so, cant say really for sure..........
> 
> Under massive stress right now being on strike after 30 years of employment.
> 
> Going on 4 weeks but its all good.


There was still quite a bit in the post i found useful.

Regarding ghrp ghrh's i feel as though i now know quite a lot when i used cjc and ghrp i gained muscle and lost fat but i will change between synthetic gh and the releasers, as i personally feel it is not healthy to stay on releasers all the time.


----------



## 3752

to be honest guys using GHRP on its own is not the best way forward i know some quote numbers of 5iu's of natty GH a day etc..when these numbers are best scenario.....

in my opinion and experiance GHRP should be used with a GNRH analog like Mod GRF 1-29 as the GH release is virtually doubled.....

Jim i am not suprised you had better results with Hyge and Slin not suprised at all mate.....i think if your metabolism is such that you can use slin(mine is not) then you should use it with GH.....


----------



## Aftershock

hackskii said:


> Well, did it occour to any of you that you negate the benefits of one when they are polar opposites?
> 
> GH is high (endo) insulin is low, when insulin is high, GH is low.
> 
> Glucagon which is kind of the opposite of insulin tends to have higher GH output during this time it is high.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1248486
> 
> Glucagon in the study had two peaks, one in 30 minutes by a direct effect and the next one in 120 minutes, so no doubt the numbers match with the 30 minute in above article.
> 
> But, seriously I feel it is a bad idea to use slin and peptides or synthetic GH together, the synergy is best kept apart.
> 
> For fat loss insulin is anabolic, for anabolism, glucagon lipolyptic, see how these do not work together?
> 
> If DAT suggests keeping fats and carbs away from the peptide jabs, then why add insulin which would be the very same thing that we are trying to stop in the first place?
> 
> If lets say monounsaturated fats have no effect on insulin, I totally fail to see how it would blunt the release of GH.
> 
> GHRP-6 works on the ghrelin receptors, but ghrelin spikes in a fasted state, as ghrelin is mainly produced in a distinct endocrine cell of the stomach, no doubt a signal from the fasted state, this is when GH spikes.
> 
> GHRP-6 works on the ghrelin receptors and no doubt this is the reason why guys get hungry on this peptide, it basicly says your belly is empty, and the reason why this peptide spikes endo GH production.
> 
> Snip
> 
> In conclusion, we have shown that fasting leads to a
> 
> diurnal ghrelin rhythm that cannot be explained by
> 
> changes in insulin, glucose or free fatty acid levels.
> 
> These changes in serum ghrelin levels during fasting
> 
> are followed by similar changes in serum GH concentrations,
> 
> indicating that ghrelin is the driving force of
> 
> increased GH secretion during fasting. By using the
> 
> GH receptor antagonist pegvisomant we also provide
> 
> indirect evidence that these changes in serum ghrelin
> 
> levels are not regulated by the GH receptor. Finally,
> 
> we found that the administration of the synthetic
> 
> GHS, GHRP-6, was followed by a decrease of peak ghrelin
> 
> levels, but this effect could only be observed after
> 
> several hours, suggesting that ghrelin concentrations
> 
> are, at least partially, regulated by a long-loop negative
> 
> auto-feedback control.


Thats is nice Scott some interesting info re how Ghrelin works there.

I do understand why guys use GH/Peptides and Slin together. The idea being that with circulating GH and insulin the get IGF production. The insulin obviously hinders the fat loss but if its anabolism you are after this is a secondary consideration.

To that end I can see why guys would shot GHRP and GRF and then take insulin with the meal that follows.

With regard to avoiding fats before the shot, my logic was the same as yours ie carbs blunt GH release and I still don't really understand why fats should be avoided, although in all fairness he didn't say it would stop the GH release only reduce it.


----------



## Kezz

so how long after a meal should you take ghrp baring in mind i eat every 2 hours??


----------



## 3752

15 minutes is fine


----------



## Kezz

cheers


----------



## Geo

Paul,

iv been running ghrp-6 and cjc(modified stuff) in the morning, 30mins after my breakfast.

Same idea with afternoon jab and at night, would the 30mins still be ok to jab?

Ta


----------



## hilly

hackskii said:


> Im lost.
> 
> As far as I can remember it is insulin that blunts GH.
> 
> Bear with me on this for one min.
> 
> When insulin is high, glucagon is low, and visa versa.
> 
> When insulin is present lipolysis stops, but when GH is present and insulin is low then lipolysis happens.
> 
> Monounsaturated fats have zero effect on insulin, hense the peanut butter he suggests.
> 
> This is one reason why ketogenic diets are so effective as insulin is not playing the fat stopping game here.
> 
> Sure, people that eat less tend to have higher GH output, so sure food plays a part here but the pathways for energy from carbs and fats are diffrent.
> 
> Diabetics fair well on high fat low carb diets due to their lack of response from endo insulin.
> 
> So, you guys talk about using peptides and slin, that I feel is a bad combo, I cant find the article I read on this very topic but basicly when you guys use both GH high dose and slin you dont get CTS.
> 
> Well, did it occour to any of you that you negate the benefits of one when they are polar opposites?
> 
> GH is high (endo) insulin is low, when insulin is high, GH is low.
> 
> Glucagon which is kind of the opposite of insulin tends to have higher GH output during this time it is high.
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1248486
> 
> Glucagon in the study had two peaks, one in 30 minutes by a direct effect and the next one in 120 minutes, so no doubt the numbers match with the 30 minute in above article.
> 
> But, seriously I feel it is a bad idea to use slin and peptides or synthetic GH together, the synergy is best kept apart.
> 
> For fat loss insulin is anabolic, for anabolism, glucagon lipolyptic, see how these do not work together?
> 
> If DAT suggests keeping fats and carbs away from the peptide jabs, then why add insulin which would be the very same thing that we are trying to stop in the first place?
> 
> If lets say monounsaturated fats have no effect on insulin, I totally fail to see how it would blunt the release of GH.
> 
> GHRP-6 works on the ghrelin receptors, but ghrelin spikes in a fasted state, as ghrelin is mainly produced in a distinct endocrine cell of the stomach, no doubt a signal from the fasted state, this is when GH spikes.
> 
> GHRP-6 works on the ghrelin receptors and no doubt this is the reason why guys get hungry on this peptide, it basicly says your belly is empty, and the reason why this peptide spikes endo GH production.
> 
> Snip
> 
> In conclusion, we have shown that fasting leads to a
> 
> diurnal ghrelin rhythm that cannot be explained by
> 
> changes in insulin, glucose or free fatty acid levels.
> 
> These changes in serum ghrelin levels during fasting
> 
> are followed by similar changes in serum GH concentrations,
> 
> indicating that ghrelin is the driving force of
> 
> increased GH secretion during fasting. By using the
> 
> GH receptor antagonist pegvisomant we also provide
> 
> indirect evidence that these changes in serum ghrelin
> 
> levels are not regulated by the GH receptor. Finally,
> 
> we found that the administration of the synthetic
> 
> GHS, GHRP-6, was followed by a decrease of peak ghrelin
> 
> levels, but this effect could only be observed after
> 
> several hours, suggesting that ghrelin concentrations
> 
> are, at least partially, regulated by a long-loop negative
> 
> auto-feedback control.


Great post scott as always, from my reading on dats board and others i understand the purpose for the 2 like this. first its not for fat loss but muscle gain.

Gh - inhibits loss of leucine and other important aminos, increases whole body synthesis, increases transport of bcaa, prevents catabolism of aminos thus supplying more aminos for the increased rate of protein synthesis we get when insulin is used.

gh - decreases amino acid oxidation, as above keeps amino acid pool full by preventing breakdown so when we use slin (preferably around workout or during the am) pool is full for us to draw on.

insulin - reduces whole body protein breakdown, increases muscle protein synthesis, draws on intra cellular pool of aminos(important this pool is full so we need aminos present when insulin and gh are active extra aminos are beneficial such as around training) increases rate of certain amino uptake and growth increases rates of others.

This is how i understood it so for muscle gain having 1 present with the other seemed to make sense to me.

thoughts scott as you have a better understanding than me


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## Aftershock

\ said:


> Paul,
> 
> iv been running ghrp-6 and cjc(modified stuff) in the morning, 30mins after my breakfast.
> 
> Same idea with afternoon jab and at night, would the 30mins still be ok to jab?
> 
> Ta


Am I missing something it's supposed to be taken 15-30 min BEFORE meals for optimum effect?


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## 3752

no you are correct Jason you should have the peptide before the meal then the release has peaked by the time you eat


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## Geo

Aftershock said:


> Am I missing something it's supposed to be taken 15-30 min BEFORE meals for optimum effect?





Pscarb said:


> no you are correct Jason you should have the peptide before the meal then the release has peaked by the time you eat


OK guys i'l give this a shot then, cheers


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## hackskii

Aftershock said:


> I do understand why guys use GH/Peptides and Slin together. The idea being that with circulating GH and insulin the get IGF production.


This makes total sense to me, thanks bro.



hilly said:


> gh - decreases amino acid oxidation, as above keeps amino acid pool full by preventing breakdown so when we use slin (preferably around workout or during the am) pool is full for us to draw on.
> 
> me


This makes total sense to me too as years ago they did studies on monkeys that were on very low restricted diets, end result were they were healthier and lived longer.

They attributed that to higher GH in the monkeys that ate less.

This is nothing new though, longevity folks use GH and many of them have a restricted diet of reduced calories.

Just a few more things for thought here:

Protein stimulates the release of glucagon, and glucagon inhibits the release of insulin, by feeding on protein during the day we help to keep glucagon being produced in adequate amounts.

In normal people (thats us), within thirty minutes of eating a small amount of protein, glucagon starts to rise, peaking at two hours.

Glucagon helps to burn stored fat, this is why so many guys diet down so well on protein in every meal and also carb cycling.

This makes for a fat burning environment.

Snip:

•Glucagon raises low blood sugar.

•Glucagon puts the metabolism in burning mode.

•Glucagon converts protein and fat to glucose.

•Glucagon causes dietary fat to be used for energy.

•Glucagon releases fat from fat cells to be used for energy.

•Glucagon reduces cholesterol production.

•Glucagon causes the kidneys to release water from the body.

•Glucagon causes artery wall cells to return to normal.

•Glucagon stimulates the use of fat for energy.

Just some random thoughts.

Thanks for the input guys, I really appreciate that.


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## jordanwlkp

im on ghrp6 for about 8weeks now with 1week off as ive done gh blast and must say that long as u stayin on better results it giving.

droped my test sus down to 500mg and ppl are sayin i look much bigger than before...

will start 8weeks aas cycle with ghrp next week (cyp or sus,npp and masteron) .hope results will be great ...


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## cheef

hwats the deal with the pwo shot is it ok to do it if youve had carbs 90mins prewo and hydrolysed whey intra wo?


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## andyfrance001

Went on ghrp-6 last year at correct dose for me, all was going well with some fantastic pumps at the gym and good definition and then one night at home i thought i was having a stroke! My left arm went quite numb and tingley which i also felt in my left side of my face. My girlfriend rushed me to hospital thinking the worse and i had a full check up with all the heart monitors, ECG etc. Everything was fine with my blood presure and good strong heart they said with that i was sent home. Four days later the same thing happened again and we rushed off to hospital, this time i was panicking so blood pressure was up a bit but went through same tests again and could not find anything wrong. After another consultation I mentioned the ghrp-6 to the doctor and he advised me to stop taking it. Within a week of not using ghrp-6 all symtoms subsided and ceased to occur again. It was diagnosed as carpel tunnel syndrome brought on by using the ghrp-6. It scared the bloody life out of me i can tell you so be carefull with this product.


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## helicopter

brilliant post very helpfull for me


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## james12345

Paul, i saw over on Dats forum you were going to trial these intramuscular, how did you get on with this?


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## 3752

james12345 said:


> Paul, i saw over on Dats forum you were going to trial these intramuscular, how did you get on with this?


James i prefer IM injections for all peptides, i find the results better....


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