# Deadlift grip. Over/over vs under/over?



## kawikid (Apr 28, 2008)

Guys... I injured my left bicep doing under/over grip deads. Didn't have my left arm totally straight and tweeked my bicep which has taken 3months to fully heal. Totally screwed any pull down or row motion for ages.

Started back doing deads recently but using an over/over grip as i'm pretty cautious about tweeking it again.

Does this make any difference to development?

Would a 1RM be lower using this grip?

On a side note.... set myself a litte personal challenge of 100kg and 10 sets of 10 reps with 1minute rest inbetween. Not quite managing to hit the 10 reps yet on sets 8,9,10, but the pump is amazing. Back feels full to bursting for days after it. :thumbup1:


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## Bri (Jul 15, 2009)

I don't reckon it would make a difference mate, i use that grip and i've always been ok. That ten sets of ten thing sounds pretty cool though, might do that once a while.


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## sizar (Nov 13, 2008)

i have always used mix grip i can lift more and better balance


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## dixie normus (May 11, 2008)

Double overhand will give even trap development. :thumb:

Mixed will not.


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## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

In terms of outright lifting performance i'd imagine over/over vs under/over is more related to grip strength. Obviously underhand makes things easier but supinating your wrist obviously puts the bicep & tendons under more strain (and risk if you're not locking out the arm).

Did you ever get the injury formally diagnosed?


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## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

dixie normus said:


> Double overhand will give even trap development. :thumb:
> 
> Mixed will not.


What makes you say that?

External rotation (which is what you're doing at the shoulder joint when you use an underhand girp for DL's) isn't caused by the traps in any manner - moreso the rotator cuff muscles IIRC, maybe some larger posterior ones.

I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but anatomically it doesn't sit quite right


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## kawikid (Apr 28, 2008)

Ak_88 said:


> In terms of outright lifting performance i'd imagine over/over vs under/over is more related to grip strength. Obviously underhand makes things easier but supinating your wrist obviously puts the bicep & tendons under more strain (and risk if you're not locking out the arm).
> 
> Did you ever get the injury formally diagnosed?


No. I just felt it out myself. Spent ages warning biceps up with 3kg dumbells at the start of every session and over time it eased off. It was down where the long head joins in at the elbow. It was only acheing on pull's so i suspected it was just a small tweak or similar that just wouldn't heal. I could train biceps ok tho with no pain at all. Weird!

All sorted now tho.


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## hilly (Jan 19, 2008)

if trying to lift very heavy and boost my ego or just having heavy moment will go over and under however i am now doing deads ala dorian style like a rack pull without the rack with a double overhand grip. find they hit my back much better.


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## BigStew (May 6, 2008)

Bicep is always at risk to pulling/injury with underhand grip, which actually puts the arm in a slightly weakened position if the elbow is not kept straight/locked.

I personally use an over/over grip, feel it hits the back better & don't think strength is diminished in any way.

Have tried the 10 x 10 on d/lifts & also on squats, leg press, hack squat, bench press, ez curls, etc at one time or another.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ak_88 said:


> What makes you say that?
> 
> External rotation (which is what you're doing at the shoulder joint when you use an underhand girp for DL's) isn't caused by the traps in any manner - moreso the rotator cuff muscles IIRC, maybe some larger posterior ones.
> 
> I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but anatomically it doesn't sit quite right


The supinated/curl grip arm slightly contracts the mid trap more, as well as in the rhomboid muscle just above the lat... although unequal development is avoided simply by swapping which arm you supinate between mixed grip sets.

I don't like the mixed grip for risk of exactly the kind of injury that kawikid had - kawikid joins a list of about a dozen people I know who have had that kind of injury doing mixed grip dead's. Am not saying that mixed grip is going to guarantee injury, and maybe it's down to a common fault in technique that can be avoided, but clearly for many there's a much bigger injury risk than with other grips.

I know many people say they can lift more with a mixed grip, but personally I find the best grip to be the hook grip for what I can lift, although if you are purely after maximum weight lifted then using straps is the best option.


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## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

Ah fair thats - thanks for the explanation.

I think leverage comes into it a little bit - if (like me) you're quite long limbed, it seems to be easier to keep your arms locked out and get your hips lower. For those who've got shorter limbs, there might be a temptation to flex the elbow a tad, and as you say put the injury risk right up.

How do you find the hook grip in terms of lifting performance and grip 'effort' if you like. Although i train Deadlifts as a power movement (i.e over/under grip, 5 reps), my goal at present is still bodybuilding orientated. Obviously i don't want to develop any major imbalances over time, so i guess i'll have to either a) learn how to use the hook, or B) Switch my over/under hands with each set to give a more even stimulus in the long term.


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## ares1 (Apr 27, 2008)

double overhand for me - just not worth the risk imo


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

Over/under and never had a problem. And I have long arms. They stay straight.


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## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

Do you alternate between sets D?


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## dmcc (Nov 25, 2007)

No. No particular reason, just never done it. I do tend to only go to mixed on the heavier sets - warm-up sets recently have been done over/over strapped as it keeps my grip fresher. In saying that, at the recent comp I didn't use straps on the warm-up and it wasn't grip strength that made me pass the 3rd lift...


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## Dig (Aug 28, 2007)

I have gone over/under for years never any problems.

2 people i have trained with have tore a bicep using this grip, most have been lifting around 20 years and when you think i trained with around 16 competitive or previously competitive powerlifters i think the risk is minimal.

Obv you can be unlucky eg JW was. Generally though bicep tears hapen when arm isnt straight, so if both arms hang straight i wouldnt worry.

Then again if you dont plan on competitive powerlifting then could just use straps double o/h, if plan on competing and worried about risk of over/under then use hook grip.

Double o/h with no straps is pretty pointless imo unless training grip specifically as weight used is limited.


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## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

Thats partly where my worry comes from as well TBH.


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## BabyYoYo (Mar 7, 2008)

I pretty much always use overhand grip... can't seem to get balanced doing over/under although this would be better for heavier lifts I guess meaning that bar won't roll.

I'm sure someone suggested both underhand grip not that long ago, not on here I might add but that confused me. Is that just asking for trouble?!


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

Over/under, helps grip when you don't use straps.


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## BabyYoYo (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm a girl and use straps though :tongue:


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## Dig (Aug 28, 2007)

BabyYoYo said:


> I pretty much always use overhand grip... can't seem to get balanced doing over/under although this would be better for heavier lifts I guess meaning that bar won't roll.
> 
> I'm sure someone suggested *both underhand grip* not that long ago, not on here I might add but that confused me. Is that just asking for trouble?!


Not a good idea, grip would be fairly weak as in double o/h but also more vunerable to any bicep probs so wouldnt make any sense:confused1:


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## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

BabyYoYo said:


> I pretty much always use overhand grip... can't seem to get balanced doing over/under although this would be better for heavier lifts I guess meaning that bar won't roll.
> 
> I'm sure someone suggested both underhand grip not that long ago, not on here I might add but that confused me. Is that just asking for trouble?!


A few years ago i was able to get to about 140kg with double overhand, but ended up getting stuck for a while. Switched to O/U and the weight piled on the bar. Personally i think O/U allows me to sink my hips a bit more too which helps keep the torque away from the lower back and get the hamstrings into it more.

Double underhand sounds like a tear waiting to happen though!


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## BabyYoYo (Mar 7, 2008)

No I didn't think it made sense either. Each to their own I suppose.

I think it's a case of what you're used to, there's no way I'd attempt a 1RM with a mixed grip... just don't feel comfortable with it! All my 100+ lifts were done with overhand grip and straps.


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

BabyYoYo said:


> I'm a girl and use straps though :tongue:


Yes well you're just weak:whistling:


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## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

BabyYoYo said:


> No I didn't think it made sense either. Each to their own I suppose.
> 
> I think it's a case of what you're used to, there's no way I'd attempt a 1RM with a mixed grip... just don't feel comfortable with it! All my 100+ lifts were done with overhand grip and straps.


If you're using a double overhand grip normally then i suppose altering your mechanics during max lifts wouldn't make sense as it'll alter your physical/kinesthetic awareness of things.

ATM i only use double overhand for my warm ups at 60, 100, maybe 140, but generally upwards of that i have to go for over/under. Could use straps but i'm keen to keep things raw for now incase i fancy a venture down the powerlifting route.


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## BabyYoYo (Mar 7, 2008)

WRT said:


> Yes well you're just weak:whistling:


See many women deadlifting 110-120 at 60kg bw do you Thomas? :whistling: :whistling:

:tongue:


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

BabyYoYo said:


> See many women deadlifting 110-120 at 60kg bw do you Thomas? :whistling: :whistling:
> 
> :tongue:


Me, I can do 230kg:lol:


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## BabyYoYo (Mar 7, 2008)

WRT said:


> Me, I can do 230kg:lol:


FAIL!!!!!

Point 1: You're not a woman

Point 2: You're not 60kgs

Point 3: You're just wrong!

:laugh:


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## WRT (May 21, 2009)

BabyYoYo said:


> FAIL!!!!!
> 
> *
> Point 1: You're not a woman*
> ...


Point 1 is clearly wrong, you've seen my mangina. Anyway back on topic.


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## ares1 (Apr 27, 2008)

BabyYoYo said:


> I'm a girl and use straps though :tongue:


me too :whistling:


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ak_88 said:


> Ah fair thats - thanks for the explanation.
> 
> I think leverage comes into it a little bit - if (like me) you're quite long limbed, it seems to be easier to keep your arms locked out and get your hips lower. For those who've got shorter limbs, there might be a temptation to flex the elbow a tad, and as you say put the injury risk right up.
> 
> How do you find the hook grip in terms of lifting performance and grip 'effort' if you like. Although i train Deadlifts as a power movement (i.e over/under grip, 5 reps), my goal at present is still bodybuilding orientated. Obviously i don't want to develop any major imbalances over time, so i guess i'll have to either a) learn how to use the hook, or B) Switch my over/under hands with each set to give a more even stimulus in the long term.


I'm similar to you with fairly long limbs... getting the hips low is something I've started doing only recently but finding it worth a few extra kgs and probably better form alround.

A lot of people find the hook grip uncomfortable, and unlike a standard overhand grip you are constantly 'aware' of your grip during the exercise... is not for everyone. With a hook grip your hands are kind of 'locked' onto the bar, and to me this makes me feel more confident in my grip allowing more focus on hip drive, lower back shape etc and all the other important stuff.


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## Dig (Aug 28, 2007)

dutch_scott said:


> over over for me ..]
> 
> straps or not
> 
> ...


Which ones? I cant think of any, unless in specific grip challenges. Only few ive ever seen double o/h use hook grip if not using straps.

That is strong as fvck double o/h no straps, amazing grip:beer:


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## gerg (Aug 17, 2008)

i tend to use mixed grip, with my thumb held over my first two fingers. I think the bars I've used are too big, or my hands too small to use hook grip :S

i usually use chalk, but I can just about do a 1RM provided my hands aren't sweaty


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## Fragjuice (Dec 29, 2009)

I use a mixed grip, as it gives me more control (no straps)


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## BabyYoYo (Mar 7, 2008)

Used both mixed and overhand grip today - only on little lifts though and felt that grip was rubbish :cursing: felt like the bar was slipping whichever way I held it!


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## Gym Bunny (Mar 25, 2009)

Hook grip or over/over.

Hook grip means you're really aware of the list and if anything is wrong, reset and restart...otherwise you can dislocate your thumbs. :rolleye:

But there's no reason why you can't mix it up and use straps (but stick to over/over with straps)

Chalk makes a big difference too.

If you're using a fat bar always use over so as not to run the risk of bicep snapping.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

Dig said:


> I have gone over/under for years never any problems.
> 
> 2 people i have trained with have tore a bicep using this grip, most have been lifting around 20 years and when you think i trained with around 16 competitive or previously competitive powerlifters i think the risk is minimal.
> 
> ...


Good post, TBH if your not a competitive PL I would suggest you use double o\h with straps.

Safer for bicep injuries

Grip strength if required can be built up in many other ways, not worth risk

Im proof, tore my left bicep off DLting U\O


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

I always use over/under, but after reading Dig's and JW's posts I'm kinda' swayed to try double over.

Do you need to use straps for double, or will chalk/liquid chalk do?


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## Gym Bunny (Mar 25, 2009)

chrisj22 said:


> I always use over/under, but after reading Dig's and JW's posts I'm kinda' swayed to try double over.
> 
> Do you need to use straps for double, or will chalk/liquid chalk do?


Chalk'll do. I try to stay away from straps on the whole


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## chrisj22 (Mar 22, 2006)

Gym Bunny said:


> Chalk'll do. I try to stay away from straps on the whole


Same here.

I also don't think my gym are fond of chalk being everywhere either! :laugh:

Might try some of that liquid chalk :thumbup1:


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## Paul_k2 (Mar 21, 2009)

I've been deadlifting for just over a year and a half with no straps and always use left under/ right over and never rotate, just because my grip is like a vice this way. This threads got me thinking especialy the inury jw007 had (bloody painful i reckon). I enjoy the challenge of powerlifting and challenging myself doing heavy single lifts but the long term goal is bodybuilding.

My question is, would you lower the weight a tad and start rotating my grip each set until i can get back up to my 1rpm with both grips (my first choice) or start from scratch and go with the double overhand and maybe use straps if my grip starts to fail? Just after opinions as i wanna be in the game a long time if poss. Cheers


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## Dig (Aug 28, 2007)

jw007 said:


> Good post, TBH if your not a competitive PL I would suggest you use double o\h with straps.
> 
> Safer for bicep injuries
> 
> ...


Any idea why it tore or what might have made you more at risk, tight bi's, slight bend in arm etc?? Or was it just plain unlucky do you think?

Seems to me that it mainly happens to guys with well developed biceps, would you agree?

I've never felt any stress on bi over/under but a few months back did tear my tricep a little, not a bad tear but bad enough to bruise up etc. This was with my hand that goes under as well.


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## gerg (Aug 17, 2008)

isn't the risk of a bicep tear more related to the use of steroids and rapid increases in muscle strength in relation to tendon strength?


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## Lois_Lane (Jul 21, 2009)

I have always pulled over/under mixed grip. Now i can twist my under wrist perfectly while the right the over hand i can only barely do it. I would alternate...


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

gerg said:


> isn't the risk of a bicep tear more related to the use of steroids and rapid increases in muscle strength in relation to tendon strength?


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

I love your posts mate...

In answer to your question.., NO


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## gerg (Aug 17, 2008)

jw007 said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> I love your posts mate...
> 
> In answer to your question.., NO


so how many nattys have torn a bicep then?

if you can give a valid reason then i'd be interested to hear :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## BLUTOS (Mar 5, 2005)

Just do double over hand but try the hook grip instead of wraps, hurts at first but your thumbs soon toughen up.


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## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

There is a fair bit of medical speculation/evidence that long term steroid use (umbrella term - including doses of oral asthma steroids etc) alters collagen synthesis, which would change the integrity of connective tissues - including tendon.

I'm not putting it in stone, but it's one school of thought behind why it may be more prominent in long term AAS users.


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## jw007 (Apr 12, 2007)

gerg said:


> so how many nattys have torn a bicep then?
> 
> if you can give a valid reason then i'd be interested to hear :lol: :lol: :lol:


Guy in my gym actually, and a boxer i Know, Hyper extend arm in a punch...

Generally Nattys TBH train like pussys so any injury wil be very hard to come by as weights are tiney

Oh also a rugby player (natty) plays for my local team done his

You hear an old wives tale and carry it on

How about "why have not all roiders torn biceps then"


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