# Natural size



## jonnymc

How big can you get naturally? Kind if a "how long is a piece of string" question, but anyone got any pics?


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## yannyboy

All down to individual, with bodystructure and genetics. I've read about 20lbs of pure muscle is a normal limit for most people. After that you need to go down the chemically enhanced route.


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## EXTREME

Check this guy out, 



, his name is Rob Hope and he is awesome. He is 100% natural and is as good a powerlifter as he is a bodybuilder.


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## AChappell

Just like you say Jonnymc, "how long is a piece of string", there are as many natural freaks walking around as there juiced ones. Just look at sports like rugby, and the up and coming olympic games, there's going to be a few of nature's specimens.

It's like yannyboy says it all comes down to your genetics, i.e your bone structure, muscle insertion points, fibre type make up, satellite and stem cell make up. Combine all that with conditioning i.e dieting, training, supplementing and rest and you can have massive potential for natural growth. How many guys actually reach that natural potential before juicing though?

Nigel Davis, Rob Hope, Ben Tennessen are all great pro's but you need only look to the WNBF, INPA and various other natural pro's and you wouldn't believe their natural.

Hopefully this video will give you some inspiration and a insight into what can be achieved naturally. I have a few pictures in my profile you can take a look at as well.


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## crazycal1

he`s an amazing specimen...

but when a natural world champ and a mr.o cant grow theyre calves it kinda gets me down lol...

and a heavily built endomorph is always gonna grow more muscle than an ecto.


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## crazycal1

btw andy i didnt realise you were a natty...

rrrrespec!


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## yannyboy

Extreme said:


> Check this guy out,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , his name is Rob Hope and he is awesome. He is 100% natural and is as good a powerlifter as he is a bodybuilder.


We are all entitled to our opinions and my opinion is he is a complete liar and not a chance he is natural.


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## Hard Trainer

yannyboy said:


> We are all entitled to our opinions and my opinion is he is a complete liar and not a chance he is natural.


Hes natural, trust me !


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## yannyboy

Hats off to him then if you say he is. I still don't personally believe it though.


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## andyboro1466867929

I think there are different definitions of natural personally.

there is a lot more in a modern bbers stash than just AAS these days.


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## X3_1986

RICHARD GOZDECKI - This guy is natural and is the NPA British Overall Champion.


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## X3_1986

Extreme said:


> Check this guy out,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , his name is Rob Hope and he is awesome. He is 100% natural and is as good a powerlifter as he is a bodybuilder.


Isn't he a pro... came through the BNBF, or am I getting him mixed with someone else??


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## AChappell

Thanks Cal, I work hard and eat a lot of chicken and rice.

Great shape on Richard Gozdecki,X3 and yest Rob is a Pro I think he won his card back in 2003 or 2004.

Yannyboy you're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine and I suppose it was inevitable that someone was bound to say Rob isn't natural. I for one have been around natural bodybuilding for around 7 years now, Robs probably one of the best bodybuilders I've ever seen or met, and I've been lucky enough to meet Dorian and Branch as well as multiple top British Amateurs. Now some people might call it jealousy and jump on your post turning this into a haters thread stating drug tests, and polygraphs are performed and so on, but instead I'll refer to my original point. Some people are just natural freaks end of and you have to accept it.

Branch Warren, Ronnie Coleman Jay Cutler all nature freaks who would never have become top pros without superior genetics, no matter how much AAS they abused. Which is why it's often said there is far more abuse going on in amateur ranks than pros. Although that's a different can of worms reserved for a different forum section.

I think Rob is only about 185lb's if that on stage, those numbers are hardly staggering and pretty common place in nature pro bodybuilding. His superior bone structure, muscle bellies, small joints, and excellent conditioning make him appear ten times bigger than he actually is. I bet if you took him in the lab and done a fibre type analysis on him you'd find he's got a ridicules amounts of type 2 fibres and satellite cells.

Now I'm sure we can all recall countless incidences of guys looking huge only to find out they are twenty pounds lighter than you actually thought they were. Or huge 17, and 18 year olds making there way into professional rugby teams. Why should a natural freak suddenly be accused of being unnatural with all the tools modern medicine, sports and nutritional science at his disposal in the 21st century.


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## X3_1986

totally agree with AChappel... Either yoe've got the genetics to be a so called natural freak or yhou haven't... I for one know i can get good gains with a good clean diet but i'm far from a natural freak lol.


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## yannyboy

AChappell said:


> I think Rob is only about 185lb's if that on stage, those numbers are hardly staggering and pretty common place in nature pro bodybuilding. His superior bone structure, muscle bellies, small joints, and excellent conditioning make him appear ten times bigger than he actually is.


 The guy is 5' 5" and weighs 185lbs. That equates to a guy at 6' weighing about 230lbs.

Dexter Jackson is 5' 6" and turned pro at 185lbs.

Hardly staggering, I'd say f**king amazing.


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## GALTONATOR1466867927

I have to say that big strong dude are going to be big strong dudes whatever. Its genetics. Personally i'm probably never going to be stage ready any heavier than 60kg at 5ft 4 but to be honest it's all an illusion, it's what you look like so how heavy or light you are really is not something to worry about


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## yannyboy

Bodybuilders being natural is like David Beckham being an algebra teacher.


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## GALTONATOR1466867927

THANKS mate


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## yannyboy

GALTONATOR said:


> THANKS mate


I'm only joking, you've achieved more than I Probably ever will.


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## crazycal1

i think yannys pretty mcuh right when says 20lbs over natural weight is about the limit.

key point being where you start from..

someone with big bones and endo meso characteristics will always be bigger naturally than an ecto..

scott when your upper bod catches up to your legs you`ll be more than 60kg i reckon.. 

i think theres probly more diuretic abuse if anything as too much size is suspicious..

i think it is telling when you look at the size differences bewteen NPA and BNBBF physiques..


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## X3_1986

goin slightly off topic here I know but how do you know whether your and endo or etco etc...


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## EXTREME

Yanny, you keep saying you doubt people are natural, by doing so you're basically calling them liars. It may be your opinion, which you and everyone else are entitled to but please don't judge other people's achievements based upon your own.

There are people like Rob who have mega genetics and are freaks of nature, Ronnie Coleman was still natural when he turned pro (no steroids, can't speak for GH), these people are the people we see in the magazines. They are not the same as you and I, they grow easily and tend not to get fat easily either, sickening but true.

I personally know Rob Hope and your post has pissed me off because I know how often he has been drug tested in bodybuilding and powerlifting comps, he passed them all. Rob is a genetic freak, he looked like a bodybuilder BEFORE he ever lifted a weight!

I coached Mushy (AChappell) and he worked for me for a while too and I know how much attention he paid to anything he took and how careful he was NOT to endanger his natural status.

My genetics were/are poor too, I could never get ripped, big yes but condition was not something that was going to be a strength of mine. I used to doubt people's natural status too at one point, it made it easier for me to accept I was not that good thinking that they must be taking drugs to get like that but I was very wrong.

One of the best examples is my girlfriend, she went from never having trained to BNBF Miss Figure Britain in 11 months under my tuition and even people she competed against and some who helped with the federation said she must be using drugs and that because of my biochemistry background I would know how to beat the drug test.

Well, she could have beaten the drug test even if she had been using BUT I could not have been sure of her beating the polygraph (lie detector) that she had to take before competing in the finals. She was also urine tested after the qualifier and finals.

She dieted on 2 solid meals and 5 shakes a day, Lean-R and Kr-Evolution and nothing else. She had a 1 hour "cheat" every saturday and totally pigged out to a disgusting degree, the local Chinese buffet must have hated her!

I have in my time around this sport seen people be slagged off behind their backs unjustly by people who are assuming things to make themselves feel better about their own results and it's not fair. Don't judge other based upon yourself, if you know for sure they are using then speak up but innocent until proven guilty.


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## EXTREME

X3, google the terms, it's not hard to work out when you know what they mean!


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## yannyboy

Hold on a minute, Extreme, I've given my opinion on what I think. Do you want myself to accept everything you say or make my own mind up. You say he's natural, I don't believe you. It's not as though anybody has lied in the bodybuilding world.

I did actually stick his pic up on another forum to see what everybody thought and all 43 replies including one from a former pro think he's not natural.

I won't pass anymore judgement on the guy.


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## jonnymc

They Both Look well, and worked hard for what they have, hats off!

I for one, think they are natural, no doubt about it.

Thanks for posting the vid chaps!


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## yannyboy

A bit of muscle, hes got more muscle than half the drugged up pro's I see in the magazines.

No protein, wow, he must be something special, 12 stone ripped.


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## yannyboy

So he's got an extremely fast metabolim.

How much protein do you think he would be taking in from 4 big macs? Quite a bit I would say.


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## yannyboy

He must be utilising his protein intake alot better than the average person.


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## AChappell

yannyboy said:


> He must be utilising his protein intake alot better than the average person.


I rest my case.


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## EXTREME

Yanny that's what I'm getting at! Some people do have genetics that are way ahead of others and are able to build freaky amounts of muscle naturally, most of them realise if they take gear and turn pro they can make money too so they do it but if you think of how many people in the world bodybuild and how many actually make the magazines it shows you how small the number of people with incredible genetics are.

Try and look at pictures of Dorian, Coleman, Victor Richards, Sergio Oliva, Bill Pearl and Chris Cormier to name a few, they look better before they touched gear than we do after taking it!

I don't think it's right that someone gets to the top of their game naturally for people to say "he must be taking drugs because he's so good" when the guy is tested every time he competes. I know Rob well, he doesn't smoke or touch any kind of drug whatsoever of any kind, his diet is always tight, he always looks great and he always trains as if his life depended on it so I'm going to stick up for him.

I have no time at all for folk who claim to be natural but aren't, that's just plain lies and cheating.


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## crazycal1

so maybe this question needs to be answered in a way that actually pertains to jonny..

will jonny get relatively speaking as big as rob hope?

probly not..

he`s after a guess at what he can acheive..

or what a typical persona can acheive...

i posted up some conversion tables in articles way back.. showing the mccullum formulae which gives approximations as to what to expect at certain heights and i think bf..


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## jonnymc

You never no Cal, might not be as cut and defined......... but size wise, who now's what the body can acheive? everyone is different............

Heres hoping..................:high5:


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## crazycal1

im just going by your bone structure bud...

i have the bones of a lady boy lol... its why i appear heavier than i am..


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## yannyboy

Extreme said:


> Yanny that's what I'm getting at! Some people do have genetics that are way ahead of others and are able to build freaky amounts of muscle naturally, most of them realise if they take gear and turn pro they can make money too so they do it but if you think of how many people in the world bodybuild and how many actually make the magazines it shows you how small the number of people with incredible genetics are.
> 
> Try and look at pictures of Dorian, Coleman, Victor Richards, Sergio Oliva, Bill Pearl and Chris Cormier to name a few, they look better before they touched gear than we do after taking it!
> 
> I don't think it's right that someone gets to the top of their game naturally for people to say "he must be taking drugs because he's so good" when the guy is tested every time he competes. I know Rob well, he doesn't smoke or touch any kind of drug whatsoever of any kind, his diet is always tight, he always looks great and he always trains as if his life depended on it so I'm going to stick up for him.
> 
> I have no time at all for folk who claim to be natural but aren't, that's just plain lies and cheating.


He is the same size as Dexter Jackson when he turned Pro.

In comparison to Phil Heath and when he turned Pro, this guy here is only 10lbs off (in comparison 5'5 @ 175 vs 5'9 @ 212) to Phil Heath!

Was Dexter natural turning Pro?

Was Phil Heath?

So then we ask ourselves the question, all this guy needs to do to be competitive with the names I just mentioned, TODAY, is to maybe only take a single shot of test e once a week....BUT!....IMAGINE IF! (lol) this guy were to do exactly what they do!!

Mr. Olympia for the next 10 years straight!

So why not do it? Make all that money taking first place beating Branch, Phil, Dex, Wolf, Jay......?


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## AChappell

yannyboy said:


> He is the same size as Dexter Jackson when he turned Pro.
> 
> In comparison to Phil Heath and when he turned Pro, this guy here is only 10lbs off (in comparison 5'5 @ 175 vs 5'9 @ 212) to Phil Heath!
> 
> Was Dexter natural turning Pro?
> 
> Was Phil Heath?
> 
> So then we ask ourselves the question, all this guy needs to do to be competitive with the names I just mentioned, TODAY, is to maybe only take a single shot of test e once a week....BUT!....IMAGINE IF! (lol) this guy were to do exactly what they do!!
> 
> Mr. Olympia for the next 10 years straight!
> 
> So why not do it? Make all that money taking first place beating Branch, Phil, Dex, Wolf, Jay......?


I think the fact he's a natural bodybuilding probably answers that question for you.

Just as a side, Kai Greene was actually a former world natural bodybuilding champion for many years and now he's one of the best ifbb pro's on the scene, purely because of his genetics.

Realise drugs don't make you a good bodybuilder, your genes and work effort do.


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## yannyboy

AChappell said:


> I think the fact he's a natural bodybuilding probably answers that question for you.
> 
> Just as a side, Kai Greene was actually a former world natural bodybuilding champion for many years and now he's one of the best ifbb pro's on the scene, purely because of his genetics.
> 
> Realise drugs don't make you a good bodybuilder, your genes and work effort do.


 So you are saying Kai Greene is one of todays top bodybuilders because of genes and work effort and nothing to do with drugs.

Don't insult my intellegence.

Drugs might not make you a good bodybuilder, but they will make you a BETTER bodybuilder.


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## Roman Podzemny

I was 73 kg and my weight stopped at 88 kg and after that, when I went trough some weight gainer my weight went over 90 kg...when I stopped its was again down to 88.

Dos my body wants to tell me something?

I just have to point out, my diet its not the best and I probably don´t get enough rest, still happy tho.


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## AChappell

yannyboy said:


> So you are saying Kai Greene is one of todays top bodybuilders because of genes and work effort and nothing to do with drugs.
> 
> Don't insult my intellegence.
> 
> Drugs might not make you a good bodybuilder, but they will make you a BETTER bodybuilder.


Kai is legendary for his work ethic, I think putting his achievements down to drug intake is short sighted, it comes back to genetics again. Few guys have managed to come in at over 270+ lbs shredded in the history of bodybuilding with as much muscle as Kai. Even the current top 6 of jay, victor, heath, wolf, dexter and branch, I don't think even jay tips the scale that big while wolf's height helps. He was a natural freak now he's a IFBB freak. If it was just a case of taking a ton of drugs then victor would have brought up his legs by now, Wolf would have a set of calves, so would dexter for that fact. His body just responds better than others to certain substances.

I went to a Branch Warren seminar recently and guys were calling him a liar for what amounted to be minimal drug use in their eyes. He laid it down straight, he eats 6 to 7 times a day and he has done every day for 20 years. Combined that with freaky genetics, low amounts of anabolics and his work ethic for the past 20 years, it's no wonder he won the recent arnold.

It's fairly straight forward as far as I see it. You have bodybuilder 5ft 8 and 92kg in the off-season with a modest stage weight of 78kg. He's trained for 12 years and won every natural show and title in the country and also done well at international level. he's strong as **** because he is also a world class powerlifter. He never misses a meal, eating 5 to 6 times a day, while his bone structure makes him look twice as big as the local guys competing on NABBA stages up and down the country. He knows his **** too since he's been doing it for years. Prior to bodybuilding he was also a promising track athlete setting records up and down the country in hurdling and the 100m. This guy was the guy you hated playing football, rugby, tennis against and he won everything at school sports day.

You take a second bodybuilder who's maybe trained for 7 years abused a bit of gear on and off, was heavy set to start but he's done well to get in the shape he has at 98kg off season and 5ft 10 but he's struggled for ever lb of muscle. and he's hoping to compete this year. He's never really been into sports and he only fell into it because a friend had a free pass to the gym one day. He's done a few courses on and off and now he's decided its time to do a show.

Both them decide to do the same show. The natural bodybuilder wins, the bodybuilder who takes gear is consoled by his friends that he hasn't been training as long, that he was shafted and the other guy was clearly using A,B,C,D,E and F. Now in that scenario it was pretty obvious the natural was a better athlete or "specimen" as I put it earlier. These are the guys who go onto to be Pro's, not everyone has what it takes, drugs or not.

Just look at Dave Palumbo. Crazy conditioning, tons of muscle, but ugly shape and poor muscle bellies and there's a guy who's always been quite vocal in his anabolic intake.

Why can't people just accept that there are people out there who have a combination of great genetics combined with the ability to train hard and put in the hours needed to grow.

Anyway I've said all I will on this subject now, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


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## GALTONATOR1466867927

I think if you can accept you are what you are and work with that you will get good results. Make your meals up and eat them. No excusses if you want to be good at something you have to nail it 100% every day there are no short cuts. I role with what I have, im 59kg on stage, but who cares what i weigh, i don't. I think you just need to realise some people are genetic freaks and some arn't


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## yannyboy

I agree that some people are genetically gifted to put on muscle but from my own point of view, when I decide to do something, it's all or nothing and that means I will reach a higher level by taking drugs. We all have our morals and if somebody wants to stay natural, then fair enough but I can't believe there is an argument that drugs won't push you to a higher limit. I will say also that drugs could also be detrimental to your health but it's a risk you have to be prepared to take.


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## GALTONATOR1466867927

Drugs will take you to a higher level than you would reach natural , however if your genetics aren't good not amount of drugs will make up for poor genetics.


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## EXTREME

Drugs will make someone good even better, and someone crap could be viewed as good but the truly great in our sport were awesome before touching drugs, it just needed unlocked.


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## thetong6969

i personally don't look much and have competed powerlifting when people said oooh your big you were right skinny at school(which i was even though i ate well was under 7 stone with legs like my wrists are now).

i'm now anywhere between 69-78k depending on whether i want to eat a lot or little,i'm diabetic so at times struggle with sugar levels a little.

hey we all have our own battles

point is i've probably put on about 4 stone and don't really carry a lot of fat,when powerlifting i was obviously strong for my size,the guys i trained with were stronger and bigger(probably helped me a bit all were natural).

now i'm 40 i personally think i look ok for what is classed as old i dont smoke drink very little 3-4 times a year.

i know i can do well in my own goals as several times i have done well and been knocked back through my medical condition,

you see many old and young guys who don't lift a thing and look times better than me

as galtonator says be happy with what you have or can achieve


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## doggy

Please excuse my ignorance. are we saying tha everyone I see in the street that are huge are likely to have taken steroids? i've nothing against anyone taking steroids, it's up to them.

i suppose I always hoped people I looked up to were natural.

Thanks.


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## crazycal1

probly dude


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## doggy

That's a shame. I was always under the impression people competeing in the worlds strongest man were using steroids, I love that show these guys are super human.

I wasn't sure about Mr olympia though.


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## thetong6969

doggy said:


> Please excuse my ignorance. are we saying tha everyone I see in the street that are huge are likely to have taken steroids? i've nothing against anyone taking steroids, it's up to them.
> 
> i suppose I always hoped people I looked up to were natural.
> 
> Thanks.


apparently and i know it's true in a town near me steroids are reccreational amongst some casual gym goers

however i wasn't pointing out that people i trained with were assisted

most people i have known taking stuff have admitted it openly

i was actually saying also i know a lot of guys with huge potential and are big who don't lift weights or wish too


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## crazycal1

if i`d been pinning test the last few years and claiming all my gains were natty you`d care lol


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## yannyboy

I've read through this thread again and some of my posts seem a bit unusual. I wrote a few replies to a guy called Leanmachine and now all his posts have gone. Whats happened?


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## garathnormanmtts

Oh my god..!! Good workout


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