# Keto bulking??



## bartonz20let

So in the last year i've gone from roughly 168lb 22% bf to 161lb 12%, i've made the best progress this last month using keto and have taken a fancy to the foods and the energy balance. I'm not gona start self diagnosing myself as sensative to carbs but I have found bf loss harder on high carbs even when restricting kcals to very low levels.

Unsuprisingly, with my kcals restricted to around 2000 during the last month of keto (avarage accross a week) i've started to hit a bit of a wall with regards to progress in the gym and have started to look into keto bulking, i'm also starting to feel smaller so feel its time to make a serious effort to gain some lean mass. My ideal would be to keep the current fat levels stable while gaining muscle so dropping total bf%.

I've been reading (mostly American) forums and information on this style of diet and it seems the conventional meathod would be to have a 24-36 hr carb up on the weekend with a small mid week carb up during the week although i've read some strong arguments for and against this meathod.

Once thing I've read is that it is harder/impossible for the body to create new muscle from protein with the absence of glycogen, is this true??

Also I've read that body fat can still be utilised for ketone bodies when muscle glycogen levels are high providing free/liver glycogen levels are low, again, if anyone can confirm or dispell this as if true this would make the plan more appealing for me??

My plan would be to have a 300kcal surplus with protein around 180-200g with the rest of the diet being high fat low carb apart from the carb ups.

Anyone with any thoughts or experiance on this I would appreciate your imput.


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## Wevans2303

Well you'll gain weight but I definitely would not do this.

I already vented my frustration in another keto thread.

If you're looking to mass up, keto is far from optimal. I can only ever see keto being useful when already lean 8% and wanting to get into competition body fat levels 6% and below.

This is coming from someone who thinks keto is a massive crock of sh*i*t. I'm sure the keto lovers will try their hardest to sway your opinion.

You say you found fat loss harder with carbs in the diet, this is because you hold WATER. Also with more glycogen you look smoother.

It's an illusion, little water retention makes you look a lot leaner...... A LOT. Especially when higher bf%.

Look at top pro's who have a lot of water retention from the AAS and even more from HGH. They look 10-12% when in reality they are 7% and a few weeks out from competition.


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## chambers9k

Wevans2303 said:


> Well you'll gain weight but I definitely would not do this.
> 
> I already vented my frustration in another keto thread.
> 
> If you're looking to mass up, keto is far from optimal. I can only ever see keto being useful when already lean 8% and wanting to get into competition body fat levels 6% and below.
> 
> This is coming from someone who thinks keto is a massive crock of sh*i*t. I'm sure the keto lovers will try their hardest to sway your opinion.


From a neutral point of view poeple have had fantastic results on keto


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## bartonz20let

Wevans2303 said:


> Well you'll gain weight but I definitely would not do this.
> 
> I already vented my frustration in another keto thread.
> 
> If you're looking to mass up, keto is far from optimal. I can only ever see keto being useful when already lean 8% and wanting to get into competition body fat levels 6% and below.
> 
> This is coming from someone who thinks keto is a massive crock of sh*i*t. I'm sure the keto lovers will try their hardest to sway your opinion.


Without sounding like a total cnut, this was kinda the reply I was hoping not to get for 2 reasons.

1 - You clearly don't like keto, ive had the best cutting results in my life from this style of diet, there is also a scientific base as to why this style is better for fat loss for people of any weight, the simple fact that ketones can't be re-stored as fat makes it better for fat loss than high carb diets.

2 - You say its not optimal but have not stated any valid reasons, i've said i've read people who are pro and con but i'm looking for more than just an oppinion.

Not trying to be a [email protected] about it, if you could elaborate your views with some factual base i'd appreciate it.

Cheers for the response all the same.


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## andymc88

Gains will b slower so I've been told but I've tried but cutting and bulking with it got a say the water loss is great bt bulking just feels rubbish I like the high carbs etc I might be wrong bt sure milky likes keto shud ask him, I'd advise getting your fats from healthy sources to


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## bartonz20let

chambers9k said:


> From a neutral point of view poeple have had fantastic results on keto


Bulking, cutting or both??

Got any stats/numbers?


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## bartonz20let

andymc88 said:


> Gains will b slower so I've been told but I've tried but cutting and bulking with it got a say the water loss is great bt bulking just feels rubbish I like the high carbs etc I might be wrong bt sure milky likes keto shud ask him, I'd advise getting your fats from healthy sources to


Already on the healthy fats bro, I might PM milky for his views.

Cheers


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## chambers9k

bartonz20let said:


> Bulking, cutting or both??
> 
> Got any stats/numbers?


Cutting mate, it was in reply to the guys rant. I got no clue about bulking though mate sorry


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## bartonz20let

Ah :whistling:

My bad.


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## Guest

If you are going to give this a go i would be intrested in hearing how it goes. I have cut on a keto diet before and it was amazing tbh, best diet i have ever used, feels bad first week or two then boom it just works but im not strict enough to stick to it at the minute!

Ive never known anybody to bulk on a keto would be good to see or hear from someone who has


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## bartonz20let

No problem, if I can get a clear idea of how it works or find people who have done it before i'll be doing it myslef and will prob start a journal for it too.


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## Milky

I never did full keto mate, l did a sort of limited Keto, very few carbs daily and none in the evening...

I never found a loss of strength or size, and l was also on a deficit to cut. It worked a treat IMO. I also ate what ever carbs l wanted on a sunday.

IMO if you add 300 cals in the way you suggest you will gain some lean mass, as long as you train hard ( obvioulsy )

I see no point in " bulking " and l like your approach mate, nice one.


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## Milky

Heather Schofield ( UKBBF winner ) told me to use the king queen peasant theory on diet mate..


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## Wevans2303

bartonz20let said:


> Without sounding like a total cnut, this was kinda the reply I was hoping not to get for 2 reasons.
> 
> 1 - You clearly don't like keto, ive had the best cutting results in my life from this style of diet, there is also a scientific base as to why this style is better for fat loss for people of any weight, the simple fact that ketones can't be re-stored as fat makes it better for fat loss than high carb diets.
> 
> 2 - You say its not optimal but have not stated any valid reasons, i've said i've read people who are pro and con but i'm looking for more than just an oppinion.
> 
> Not trying to be a [email protected] about it, if you could elaborate your views with some factual base i'd appreciate it.
> 
> Cheers for the response all the same.


1. For every article you find on why keto is so great I could equal you or better you in studies that show the opposite.

2. I say it's not optimal because i've tried to cut on it and gain mass on low carb diets, they just do not work for me, period. This whole game is based off experience and people do what works, the masses do not do keto to gain muscle and when cutting the masses do not go strict keto and take in a diet of 65+% fat.

Sure it's gunna work for some, cals in vs out, I don't deny that, any better than the 'standard' diet, no, accelerated fat loss is merely an illusion caused from holding less water. Again I use my pro example, they look 10-12% when they hold all the water from the GH etc. when in reality they only need to lose 1-2% more body fat and they are contest ready.


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## Guest

Also i'd imagine you'd have to keep the macros to the same percentages to prevent glucogenesis?

Youve got me thinking now


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## bartonz20let

Milky said:


> as long as you train hard ( obvioulsy )
> 
> I see no point in " bulking " and l like your approach mate, nice one.


I've been training like abit of a mad un recently, was determined to drop the bf% before I did anything like focus on mass, gona have a week off training, recover, re focus the diet and see if I can get over this plateau.

Thanks for the input man.


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## bartonz20let

Wevans2303 said:


> accelerated fat loss is merely an illusion caused from holding less water.


Sorry bro, this simply isn't true, when KB's are produced they can not be re-stored, they are secreted through urine, (your basically p'ssing the excess energy out rather than storing it) whereas if carbs are present and fat is in its normal state the fat is stored and carbs are used for energy.

While this isn't accelerated fat loss per say it still increase nett loss over a standard diet.


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## bartonz20let

willsy said:


> Also i'd imagine you'd have to keep the macros to the same percentages to prevent glucogenesis?
> 
> Youve got me thinking now


Thats what i'm thinking.


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## Wevans2303

bartonz20let said:


> Sorry bro, this simply isn't true, when KB's are produced they can not be re-stored, they are secreted through urine, (your basically p'ssing the excess energy out rather than storing it whereas if carbs are present and fat is in its normal state the fat is stored and carbs are used for energy.
> 
> While this isn't accelerated fat loss per say it still increase nett loss over a standard diet.


Then why is it that I got to my leanest ever faster than keto and I was eating coco pops and ice cream daily and had carbs higher than protein?

We could argue this until the end of the earth, if it makes you feel good i'm not going to stop you eating this way. If you can do this for a year and accept a sub 5lb gain in lean tissue good for you.


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## chambers9k

Wevans2303 said:


> Then why is it that I got to my leanest ever faster than keto and I was eating coco pops and ice cream daily and had carbs higher than protein?
> 
> We could argue this until the end of the earth, if it makes you feel good i'm not going to stop you eating this way. If you can do this for a year and accept a sub 5lb gain in lean tissue good for you.


The ice cream and coco pops diet may work wonders for you. But i'm guessing it's not gonna for everyone else.

Thats said i've got mates who rave about keto, and others who hate it


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## Guest

Wevans2303 said:


> Then why is it that I got to my leanest ever faster than keto and I was eating coco pops and ice cream daily and had carbs higher than protein?
> 
> We could argue this until the end of the earth, if it makes you feel good i'm not going to stop you eating this way. If you can do this for a year and accept a sub 5lb gain in lean tissue good for you.


Ok we do understand that different people metablise different food groups more efficiently?

I read a study im trying to find again that showed iirc 65% of people metabolise fat more efficiently than carbs hence keto works wonders for the majority of people...

When i find the study i will bang it up here


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## Milky

I am not a lover of full Keto. Like l say l prefer the king queen peasant theory..


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## Wevans2303

chambers9k said:


> The ice cream and coco pops diet may work wonders for you. But i'm guessing it's not gonna for everyone else.
> 
> Thats said i've got mates who rave about keto, and others who hate it


Mate before I used my head I used to think you needed to keep an eye on carbs at all times not just for cutting, as soon as I realised that it's all complete bollocks and the reality of it is it makes little/no difference I started ramping carbs up, being able to train a lot harder and was actually able to enjoy my diet.



willsy said:


> Ok we do understand that different people metablise different food groups more efficiently?
> 
> I read a study im trying to find again that showed iirc 65% of people metabolise fat more efficiently than carbs hence keto works wonders for the majority of people...
> 
> When i find the study i will bang it up here


I would LOVE to see how many people they used for that study.


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## chambers9k

Wevans2303 said:


> Mate before I used my head I used to think you needed to keep an eye on carbs at all times not just for cutting, as soon as I realised that it's all complete bollocks and the reality of it is it makes little/no difference I started ramping carbs up, being able to train a lot harder and was actually able to enjoy my diet.
> 
> I would LOVE to see how many people they used for that study.


So whats the secret then dude? just a calorie deficit?


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## waynesta

chambers9k said:


> So whats the secret then dude? just a calorie deficit?


Ethiopian diet maybe?


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## Wevans2303

chambers9k said:


> So whats the secret then dude? just a calorie deficit?


I think the secret is being able to be completely objective as regards to diet and realise that the ice cream you just ate is not going to make you magically stop losing fat or losing fat at a slower rate.

I used to care SO MUCH about my diet, I had to diet low carbs and I never wanted to go past 300g carbs when bulking.

It got to the point of it being a joke, I wasn't enjoying eating and life in general was just not balanced all I thought about was the next meal and what it 'needed' to be.

So I said to myself, screw it, I will eat whatever I like, WHATEVER! and just take a completely emotionless stance on diet and see where it goes, just get in the gym train really hard and get in and rest, it seems to have worked.

You seriously think pro's sit there and ponder what to eat and measure out quantities of food? No, they go into the kitchen and they fix up whatever they fancy, whenever they are hungry, they don't force feed, they don't follow deprivation diets (like keto) and they don't sit there and cry themselves to sleep because that ben & jerry's has cost them the first place at the Olympia. If you asked a pro about the health and weight management benefits of a ketogenic diet most of them would look at you with a puzzled face and then probably laugh at you.


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## chambers9k

Wevans2303 said:


> I think the secret is being able to be completely objective as regards to diet and realise that the ice cream you just ate is not going to make you magically stop losing fat or losing fat at a slower rate.
> 
> I used to care SO MUCH about my diet, I had to diet low carbs and I never wanted to go past 300g carbs when bulking.
> 
> It got to the point of it being a joke, I wasn't enjoying eating and life in general was just not balanced all I thought about was the next meal and what it 'needed' to be.
> 
> So I said to myself, screw it, I will eat whatever I like, WHATEVER! and just take a completely emotionless stance on diet and see where it goes, just get in the gym train really hard and get in and rest, it seems to have worked.
> 
> You seriously think pro's sit there and ponder what to eat and measure out quantities of food? No, they go into the kitchen and they fix up whatever they fance, whenever they are hungry, they don't force feed, they don't follow deprivation diets (like keto) and they don't sit there and cry themselves to sleep because that ben & jerry's has cost them the first place at the olympia.


Thats a fair enough point, however i would say the pro's DO have a miltant diet. I would be pretty sure they do weigh out food and count calories etc. I just cant imagine you would become pro eating what you want when you want.

Just my opinion like, i have no facts to back it up lol


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## Guest

Wevans2303 said:


> I would LOVE to see how many people they used for that study.


Well tbh weather it was 20 or 200 its a study, so far you have said ice cream and coco pops is better!

I watched a program where dawn porter had ice cream only diet and lost 'weight', what the weight was though who knows?!?

Like i said if i can find it again i'll post it up, but keto is like marmite love it or hate it, but theres no denying it works...

I like the idea of milkys king queen peasent approach also, might try to do something similar myself soon


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## Wevans2303

chambers9k said:


> Thats a fair enough point, however i would say the pro's DO have a miltant diet. I would be pretty sure they do weigh out food and count calories etc. I just cant imagine you would become pro eating what you want when you want.
> 
> Just my opinion like, i have no facts to back it up lol


I can tell you with absolute certainty that top top professionals in the world of bodybuilding do not measure out their food to the gram, they eat every 2-3 hours only because the hormones they're on make them so god damn hungry, they do not eat if they are not hungry, they eat so much junk and they need to do it, they stay so lean and gain lean mass because of the hormones they're on.

Look at Zack Kahn, a man of his size eating 4000 calories? He makes healthy and tasty food, stir frys etc with sauces. he doesn't sit there measuring out dry chicken breast with broccoli and then having oats with water, he just doesn't. Only in the very last stage of prep will they ever focus on eating truly clean and getting rid of carbs so they can get water down to zero.

If you're natural you can still maintain a lean 8-10% eating a bit of junk food on a daily basis, i'm sure of it. When you want to get to 6% or under competitive standard body fat then you will need to clean the diet up and then you will look like complete rubbish flat and weak looking if natural.

I sit here now and think where I would be if I didn't realise the whole diet thing is overworked, I WOULDN'T BE LIFTING.



willsy said:


> Well tbh weather it was 20 or 200 its a study, so far you have said ice cream and coco pops is better!
> 
> I watched a program where dawn porter had ice cream only diet and lost 'weight', what the weight was though who knows?!?
> 
> Like i said if i can find it again i'll post it up, but keto is like marmite love it or hate it, but theres no denying it works...
> 
> I like the idea of milkys king queen peasent approach also, might try to do something similar myself soon


It's better for me because it taught me not to be anal over my diet, as I said before in the general case it makes little to no difference what you eat whether it's lo carb high carb wheverthefvck carb as long as protein is kept high and calories are below maintenance you lose weight, lean muscle and fat together, this whole muscle sparing thing on keto is BOLLOCKS, it's as sparing as the severity of any diet.

I never said keto didn't work, I said that to say it's superior to a regular diet is complete ****e.


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## chambers9k

How long would you plan on "keto bulking" for? As far as i'm aware it's a good short term diet but i was under the impression is wasn't particularly healthy long term


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## Guest

Wevans2303 said:


> I can tell you with absolute certainty that top top professionals in the world of bodybuilding do not measure out their food to the gram, they eat every 2-3 hours only because the hormones they're on make them so god damn hungry, they do not eat if they are not hungry, they eat so much junk and they need to do it, they stay so lean and gain lean mass because of the hormones they're on.
> 
> Look at Zack Kahn, a man of his size eating 4000 calories? He makes healthy and tasty food, stir frys etc with sauces. he doesn't sit there measuring out dry chicken breast with broccoli and then having oats with water, he just doesn't. Only in the very last stage of prep will they ever focus on eating truly clean and getting rid of carbs so they can get water down to zero.
> 
> It's better for me because it taught me not to be anal over my diet, as I said before in the general case it makes little to no difference what you eat whether it's keto lo carb high carb wheverthefvck carb as long as protein is kept high and calories are below maintenance you lose weight, lean muscle and fat together.
> 
> I never said keto didn't work, I said that to say it's superior to a regular diet is complete ****e.


I find that without weighing or checking what im eating if i eat what i want then i massivly under estimate what ive eaten and end up gaining fat. For me i need some rules and routine otherwise it just doesnt work for me.


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## Wevans2303

chambers9k said:


> How long would you plan on "keto bulking" for? As far as i'm aware it's a good short term diet but i was under the impression is wasn't particularly healthy long term


I am glad you make this point as I have stressed this before.

Keto in the short term will work well getting the last bits of fat off and reducing water retention to a minimum without diuretics to really bring out the best in the physique.

Long term health on keto, well, I would not like to be the one to test. I don't think you would become extremely unhealthy, but unless you had serious carb up days you're body will end up underperforming, I know because I used to do it! I dieted low carb for 2-3 months and by the end I felt like complete crap, I suddenly realised how badly my performance had suffered and that my body was going downhill, I lost libido, was permanently ****ed off and tired, I even made a thread on here about it asking for advice. When carbs came back in a big way (500-700g/day initially) my gym performance exploded and I felt so much better, did I get fat? NO.

The sooner people realise the realities of diet and the realities of bodybuilding and the fact that carbohydrates are not the enemy the better, seriously just clean eating alone in bodybuilding is the biggest load of bollocks ive ever heard in my life thinking about it now, even worse than the mis-selling of supplements.


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## bartonz20let

Well I go to bed for a bit of sexy time, get up this morning and this thread has gone kinda off topic.



Wevans2303 said:


> I can tell you with absolute certainty that top top professionals in the world of bodybuilding do not measure out their food to the gram, they eat every 2-3 hours only because the hormones they're on make them so god damn hungry, they do not eat if they are not hungry, they eat so much junk and they need to do it, they stay so lean and gain lean mass because of the hormones they're on.
> 
> Look at Zack Kahn, a man of his size eating 4000 calories? He makes healthy and tasty food, stir frys etc with sauces. he doesn't sit there measuring out dry chicken breast with broccoli and then having oats with water, he just doesn't. Only in the very last stage of prep will they ever focus on eating truly clean and getting rid of carbs so they can get water down to zero.
> 
> If you're natural you can still maintain a lean 8-10% eating a bit of junk food on a daily basis, i'm sure of it. When you want to get to 6% or under competitive standard body fat then you will need to clean the diet up and then you will look like complete rubbish flat and weak looking if natural.
> 
> I sit here now and think where I would be if I didn't realise the whole diet thing is overworked, I WOULDN'T BE LIFTING.
> 
> It's better for me because it taught me not to be anal over my diet, as I said before in the general case it makes little to no difference what you eat whether it's lo carb high carb wheverthefvck carb as long as protein is kept high and calories are below maintenance you lose weight, lean muscle and fat together, this whole muscle sparing thing on keto is BOLLOCKS, it's as sparing as the severity of any diet.
> 
> I never said keto didn't work, I said that to say it's superior to a regular diet is complete ****e.


Wevans, your comparison to the pro's is totally pointless, i'm 161lb and am currently not using any steroids, eating 4-5k cals a day would leave me in one state... obesity. If you could give us some progress pics or stats from your ice cream diet that might back up your oppinion a little.

Also, you have overlooked my point regarding the secretion of ketons (energy) into the urine, one of the main factors of the keto diet being sucessfull? This is a scientific fact as to why the diet works for fat loss over say a balanced carb diet.

I do however believe the fact that I have to be anal about my diet, remember I was 22% bf in feb last year, well a structured diet has helped me recover this, again, the last month i've had the fastest fat loss of my life on keto.

2 things sway me to keto, my personal findings and some strong scientific facts.



chambers9k said:


> How long would you plan on "keto bulking" for? As far as i'm aware it's a good short term diet but i was under the impression is wasn't particularly healthy long term


True, I am aware of the pitfalls of continually asking the body to produce ketones along with macro nutrient shortages, one reason why I plan to cycle with a weekend and mid week carb up.


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## bartonz20let

Milky said:


> I am not a lover of full Keto. Like l say l prefer the king queen peasant theory..


Thanks for the advice, I'll have a look into this now.

If anyone has any thoughts on the questions from my first post i'd really appreciate it.

Once thing I've read is that it is harder/impossible for the body to create new muscle from protein with the absence of glycogen, is this true??

Also I've read that body fat can still be utilised for ketone bodies when muscle glycogen levels are high providing free/liver glycogen levels are low, again, if anyone can confirm or dispell this as if true this would make the plan more appealing for me??


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## Milky

bartonz20let said:


> Thanks for the advice, I'll have a look into this now.
> 
> If anyone has any thoughts on the questions from my first post i'd really appreciate it.
> 
> Once thing I've read is that it is harder/impossible for the body to create new muscle from protein with the absence of glycogen, is this true??
> 
> Also I've read that body fat can still be utilised for ketone bodies when muscle glycogen levels are high providing free/liver glycogen levels are low, again, if anyone can confirm or dispell this as if true this would make the plan more appealing for me??


That bit l cant help mate, far too scinetific for me, sorry mate..


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## bartonz20let

:lol: No problem.

As far as I can see, the answers to the 2 questions will be detrimental to the function of the diet.


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## Milky

bartonz20let said:


> :lol: No problem.
> 
> As far as I can see, the answers to the 2 questions will be detrimental to the function of the diet.


What l have found is l know how to tweek my diet to suit me.

When l am looking bloated, l cut the carbs, when l feel l need them l up them again.

Were all different.


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## bartonz20let

Thats a fair point, mabe I should stop worrying about the exact science so much and do some experimentation.

I suppose, I could give this a month or two, see how it goes and re-assess, it might work, might be a disaster.


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## Milky

bartonz20let said:


> Thats a fair point, mabe I should stop worrying about the exact science so much and do some experimentation.
> 
> I suppose, I could give this a month or two, see how it goes and re-assess, it might work, might be a disaster.


Look at big silver back mate, same approach as me, doesnt weigh his food sticks to a basic of 6 meals a day, never worries about macro's and the man is a beast..


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## Dux

I don't think I'm ever gonna go over 100g of carbs a day ever again.

At the moment I'm having about 50g, but I'm gonna up it slightly soon, pre and post workout only.


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## bartonz20let

Bulking or cutting dux? Have you bulked/added mass on keto?


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## Milky

Dux said:


> I don't think I'm ever gonna go over 100g of carbs a day ever again.
> 
> At the moment I'm having about 50g, but I'm gonna up it slightly soon, pre and post workout only.


I try to never go over 80 per meal mate, by this l mean 80 of a carb source...pasta, rice etc..


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## Dux

I can't bulk in the traditional sense, because even on gear it all goes to my waist, even when eating mega clean.

I can build muscle, albeit slowly, eating about 2800-3000 cal's a day with low carb/high protein.

I'm never gonna make massive gains, but at least I'll stay lean and be heading in the right direction.


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## Bamse

Milky said:


> What l have found is l know how to tweek my diet to suit me.
> 
> When l am looking bloated, l cut the carbs, when l feel l need them l up them again.
> 
> Were all different.


Key to a good diet right there.


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## Bamse

Dux said:


> I'm never gonna make massive gains, but at least I'll stay lean and be heading in the right direction.


I think that's a sensible approach for most people.


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## bartonz20let

Dux said:


> I can't bulk in the traditional sense, because even on gear it all goes to my waist, even when eating mega clean.
> 
> I can build muscle, albeit slowly, eating about 2800-3000 cal's a day with low carb/high protein.
> 
> I'm never gonna make massive gains, but at least I'll stay lean and be heading in the right direction.


Exactally what i'm looking to do.


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## Wevans2303

bartonz20let said:


> Well I go to bed for a bit of sexy time, get up this morning and this thread has gone kinda off topic.
> 
> Wevans, your comparison to the pro's is totally pointless, i'm 161lb and am currently not using any steroids, eating 4-5k cals a day would leave me in one state... obesity. If you could give us some progress pics or stats from your ice cream diet that might back up your oppinion a little.
> 
> Also, you have overlooked my point regarding the secretion of ketons (energy) into the urine, one of the main factors of the keto diet being sucessfull? This is a scientific fact as to why the diet works for fat loss over say a balanced carb diet.
> 
> I do however believe the fact that I have to be anal about my diet, remember I was 22% bf in feb last year, well a structured diet has helped me recover this, again, the last month i've had the fastest fat loss of my life on keto.
> 
> 2 things sway me to keto, my personal findings and some strong scientific facts.
> 
> True, I am aware of the pitfalls of continually asking the body to produce ketones along with macro nutrient shortages, one reason why I plan to cycle with a weekend and mid week carb up.


Again you've failed to understand parts of my post.

4000 calories for someone as massive as Kahn is not much at all.

Also look at the part where I talk about naturals:

"If you're natural you can still maintain a lean 8-10% eating a bit of junk food on a daily basis, i'm sure of it. When you want to get to 6% or under competitive standard body fat then you will need to clean the diet up and then you will look like complete rubbish flat and weak looking if natural."

Should of put about taking carbs out in there too ^^, although i've done that in another post somewhere.

I truly believe this, I used to be just like you, thought keto lost me a load of fat, when in reality it took all the water out of me and took my performance and took a huge dump on it. I ended up grossly under performing and as soon as the carbs came back 500/700g a day performance came back, health came back and did I get fat? No I didn't, the extra glycogen and water helped a lot though especially with strength.

It's also worth noting that I looked sub 8% on keto, as soon as the water & glycogen came back I looked 10%! It's an i.l.l.u.s.i.o.n.

All of the pro's that I train with or train near, all of them take in high carbs, the naturals and the drug assisted, none of them mess about with low low carb and ketogenic diets they only ever do remotely low carb in prep. I even asked some of them their thoughts on the merits of keto and they didn't want to know, probably because they too also tried it and didn't like it.

Midweek carb up? Then you aren't even doing keto. I give up.


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## dtlv

I followed a keto bulk about two years ago... for me it really didn't work.

Did twelve weeks of an approx 300kcals per day over maintenence diet, macros were around 40-50 carbs per day, 1g/lb protein, the rest of kcals from roughly equal PUFA/SAT/MUFA fats. Did it as straight keto with no carb ups.

In twelve weeks I gained 6lbs fat, 1lb non fat mass... this is inferior to what I normally gain on a similar calorie excess over the same period on my preferred diet of 40/30/30 C/P/F where the normal 12 week results are 2-3lbs lean tissue and 2-3lbs fat, as measured by the Parrillo calliper method.

I also suffered gastric distress, constipation, heartburn from the high fat, and fairly frequent migraines (something I've always had with low carb diets).

Keto is great for those who are carb sensitive, and does work better than anything for some, but for those who tolerate carbs well it is can be just as bad as high carbs are to a person sensitive to them... genes are ultimately the trump card for finding optimal diet, is one of the few things I've become convinced of over the last twenty years.


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## Wevans2303

Dtlv74 said:


> I followed a keto bulk about two years ago... for me it really didn't work.
> 
> Did twelve weeks of an approx 300kcals per day over maintenence diet, macros were around 40-50 carbs per day, 1g/lb protein, the rest of kcals from roughly equal PUFA/SAT/MUFA fats. Did it as straight keto with no carb ups.
> 
> In twelve weeks I gained 6lbs fat, 1lb non fat mass... this is inferior to what I normally gain on a similar calorie excess over the same period on my preferred diet of 40/30/30 C/P/F where the normal 12 week results are 2-3lbs lean tissue and 2-3lbs fat, as measured by the Parrillo calliper method.
> 
> I also suffered gastric distress, constipation, heartburn from the high fat, and fairly frequent migraines (something I've always had with low carb diets).
> 
> *Keto is great for those who are carb sensitive*, and does work better than anything for some, but for those who tolerate carbs well it is can be just as bad as high carbs are to a person sensitive to them... genes are ultimately the trump card for finding optimal diet, is one of the few things I've become convinced of over the last twenty years.


Thanks for posting this, v interesting. Nice to see some actual numbers.

Also part in bold, there are very few people who are truly carb sensitive, I used to think I was until I realised that I probably was not. This is the problem with most people, they convince themselves they are this that or the other and that's what actually effects their results, it's the mindset.


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## huge monguss

In the middle of doing something similar so will let you know how I get on interesting post though.


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## bartonz20let

Wevans2303 said:


> If you're natural you can still maintain a lean 8-10% eating a bit of junk food on a daily basis.
> 
> I grew up with no more than 10% bf, and you know what daily junk food gave me? Another 12%bf whilst still training for football/running/cycling
> 
> It's also worth noting that I looked sub 8% on keto, as soon as the water & glycogen came back I looked 10%! It's an i.l.l.u.s.i.o.n.
> 
> Now your just being silly, borderline flaming, You clearly are anti keto and I get that but I measure my bf% using calipers and they confirm what the mirror shows and what I can feel, a drop in body fat.
> 
> Midweek carb up? Then you aren't even doing keto. I give up.
> 
> Again, a bit of a silly conclusion as a 100g or 400kcal is tiny and would be burnt off in less than one training session. Certainly not enough to stop ketone production long term.


No offence bro but all you can site is your personal experiance, (your what 21, hardly worldly) what some guys have told you down the gym and what you believe the pro's do. That to me is broscience and combined with your anti keto attitude it pretty much renders your oppinion invalid as it seems blinded by a total rage to get people to conform to your views. Again you have skirted around the FACT regarding storage of kb's.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/keto2.htm

Believe it or not, i'm not pro or anti keto, I take things as they come, use what works, forget what doesn't and for me keto is currently working, absolutly no illusion. I understand it didn't work for you but can you not understand that whilst you felt tired in the gym i've been smashing pb's even when in reduced carbs?? Is it possible you just didn't apply the diet correctly??

Mabe my goals are just different to yours? I have no interest in being 200lb lean, its appealing but not practical for me and would be detrimental to the other sports I play and to me they are more important.

One thing you have achieved, you have taken this thread and turned it into a pro/anti keto arguement, certainly what I didn't want it to become. So thanks for that mate.



Dtlv74 said:


> I followed a keto bulk about two years ago... for me it really didn't work.
> 
> Did twelve weeks of an approx 300kcals per day over maintenence diet, macros were around 40-50 carbs per day, 1g/lb protein, the rest of kcals from roughly equal PUFA/SAT/MUFA fats. Did it as straight keto with no carb ups.
> 
> In twelve weeks I gained 6lbs fat, 1lb non fat mass... this is inferior to what I normally gain on a similar calorie excess over the same period on my preferred diet of 40/30/30 C/P/F where the normal 12 week results are 2-3lbs lean tissue and 2-3lbs fat, as measured by the Parrillo calliper method.
> 
> I also suffered gastric distress, constipation, heartburn from the high fat, and fairly frequent migraines (something I've always had with low carb diets).
> 
> Keto is great for those who are carb sensitive, and does work better than anything for some, but for those who tolerate carbs well it is can be just as bad as high carbs are to a person sensitive to them... genes are ultimately the trump card for finding optimal diet, is one of the few things I've become convinced of over the last twenty years.


Thanks for the advice man, as yet i've not suffered from any of the negatives whilst keto cutting aside from a 2 day headache which I havent had since. If I do go with this I will be keeping a keen eye on the bf as my main aim what ever rout I use is to limit bf.

Cheers


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## bartonz20let

huge monguss said:


> In the middle of doing something similar so will let you know how I get on interesting post though.


Would very much like to here your results man.


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## huge monguss

bartonz20let said:


> Would very much like to here your results man.


Well I have took a few pics yesterday wish I had of took them at the start tbh but I looked like sh!t still do but will post them up when I am finished see what feedback I get.


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## dtlv

Wevans2303 said:


> Thanks for posting this, v interesting. Nice to see some actual numbers.
> 
> Also part in bold, there are very few people who are truly carb sensitive, I used to think I was until I realised that I probably was not. This is the problem with most people, they convince themselves they are this that or the other and that's what actually effects their results, it's the mindset.


Carb sensitivity I think is fairly common and equal to fat sensitivity. My main area of interest and area of study is nutrigenomics, and the there is some quite compelling evidence now that certain genes, and the polymorphisms (variants) of those genes that people carry, significantly affect optimal diet choice in respect of body composition.

The main genes identified so far are these -



> FABP2 Ala54Thr (A54T) Polymorphism
> 
> *The FABP2 gene encodes the intestinal form of fatty acid binding protein2 (FABP2). FABP2 protein is found in small intestine epithelial cells where it strongly influences fat absorption. Variations in DNA or polymorphisms in the gene result in greater binding of the fatty acids (released in the intestine from dietary fat consumption) which in turn results in higher absorption of fat.* One such polymorphism, Ala54Thr, has been found to be associated with obesity. Multiple clinical research studies have indicated that individuals with the Thr54 form of the protein show increased absorption and/or processing of dietary fatty acids by the intestine. The Thr54 variant has been associated with elevated BMI and body fat, increased abdominal fat, and obesity and higher LEPTIN levels. Homozygotes for 54Thr/Thr variant show increased levels of postprandial triglycerides and increased levels of 14-18-carbon fatty acids compared with the 54Ala/Ala form of the protein.
> 
> PPARG Pro12Ala (P12A) Polymorphism
> 
> Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-gamma (PPARG) protein is abundantly expressed in fat cells and plays a key role in the formation of fat cells. It is crucial to lipid (fat) metabolism. Polymorphisms in this gene that are responsible for expression of variant forms of the protein have been associated with the development of type 2 diabetes. The variant form of the protein (Ala12) is associated with a decreased binding affinity to its target genes and thus with a reduction in its ability to regulate the expression of these target genes. Pro12Ala polymorphism was the most studied, in individuals with the 12Pro/Pro form of the protein were more affected by the amount of fat in the diet and had a direct association between higher BMI and the amount of fat intake as opposed to the Ala12 carriers. These findings clearly indicated that 12Pro/Ala carrier individuals are more sensitive to the amount of fat in the diet. *Clinical studies consistently show that Pro12 allele is the high-risk allele and 12Pro/Pro subjects are more sensitive to the amount of fat in the diet, more resistant to weight loss and at increased risk of diabetes. The evidence of gene-diet interaction is strong.*
> 
> ADRB2 Arg16Gly (R16E) and Gln27Glu (Q27E) Polymorphisms
> 
> The beta-2 adrenergic receptor (ADRB2) gene product ADRB2 protein is expressed in fat cells. This receptor protein is involved in the mobilization of fat from the fat cells for energy in response to hormones called catecholamines. Several polymorphisms of this gene that result in amino acid changes have been identified. The two main well-characterized polymorphisms Arg16Gly and Gln27Glu are the most common in Caucasians. The recent obesity gene map shows association between variants in the ADRB2 gene and obesity, with most of the positive findings involving the Arg16Gly or Gln27Glu polymorphisms. Multiple studies show association between Glu27 and Gly16 allele carriers and abdominal and central obesity. 27Gln/Gln was found to be a risk genetic profile in studies involving overfeeding of identical twins where higher weight gain and subcutaneous fat were observed compared to those with the Glu27 allele. *Results from association studies suggest that the Glu27 allele is associated with an increased risk of obesity, abdominal obesity and obesity when adhering to a high carbohydrate diet.*


There are other identified genes also, but the above three are the most well studied and the ones that show consistent patterns. The first two gene polymorphisms (that make people 'fat sensitive') are estimated to be common to about 35% of the population (either as individual polymorphisms or combined), and the third gene polymorphism is estimated common to about 40% of the population, making those people carb sensitive.

I think it's fairly straight forward in the when someone plays around with different diet types and finds either that they get on best with low carbs or high carbs, low fat or high fat, what they have done is actually identified their genes preference - but through trial and error rather than a cheek swab and genetic test.

The danger though, as I keep saying in these threads, is to assume that what works for one person will automatically work for everyone. Have been guilty of these kinds of judgements myself in the past, and it's human nature to extrapolate what we observe personally to others, but in the case of optimal diet, individual differences do have to be recognised.

One thing that isn't in much question though is that ketogenic diets do limit the duration of maximal high intensity exercise performance -they don't limit maximal strength, but due to inefficiency of ADP-ATP conversion rates from fatty acids and ketones compared to glucose, this cannot be gotten around. Certainly less ability to sustain maximal strength (fewer reps) is something I've observed consistently myself when in ketosis.


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## huge monguss

Dtlv74 said:


> The danger though, as I keep saying in these threads, is to assume that what works for one person will automatically work for everyone.


Thats why im just going to try and find what works for me and stick to it!


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## bartonz20let

Dtlv74, that just about covers everything I need or alludes to it anyway, massive thanks.

I take from that the thought not no matter how much a question is asked such as 'what diet is best for me?' the answer is really the best diet for you is the one that works best. Providing I approach it correctly trial and error is the only option to find out.


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## Milky

My mate, an ex Mr Britain winner BTW always tells me " the best diet is the one you can stick too "

Pretty spot on l think..


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