# Help required by a Doctor



## Doc (May 16, 2016)

I am a Doctor and I've written an article for GPs about how to treat steroid users. This includes side-effects and how to monitor for any long-term complications.

It would be really useful to get some feedback from a user before it's finally submitted.

If anyone is interested in reading the article and commenting or discussing anabolic steroid use confidentially please message me!

Cheers,

Doc


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## weaver (Dec 22, 2015)

If you want feedback why dont you post your article? Its really hard to get any feedback on something that its not available for people to read it. :confused1:


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## UlsterRugby (Nov 16, 2014)

Post the article and you will get feedback, I doubt many people will be messaging a new member with no credentials


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## nitrogen (Oct 25, 2007)




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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Doc said:


> I am a Doctor and *I've written an article for GPs about how to treat steroid users.* This includes side-effects and how to monitor for any long-term complications.
> 
> It would be really useful to get some feedback from a user before it's finally submitted.
> 
> ...


 Perhaps its the choice of words but that comes across like "treating a drug user", i.e there is something wrong them and they need help in some way. AAS done correctly I see has no worse that the usual bing drinkers, over eaters and so forth

If the article is truly objective I'd be happy to contribute

As I say perhaps this is not your attention but there have doctors on here before scaremongering and too subjective in their analysis.


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## andyboro (Oct 1, 2006)

im comfortable referring to myself as a drug user tbh.

Mainly because... well.... I am!


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

post the article up it would be cool to see, over the 25+yrs i have been using steroids i have argued and clashed with many medical professionals who to be honest seem to have no real understanding of steroid use or how to treat any issues, normally they dismiss it all as "well you shouldn't be using you bad bad man" whilst sitting in their chair in a clinically obese state........

if you post it up i will make sure the thread is kept on track and you get mature feedback.


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## nitrogen (Oct 25, 2007)

Pscarb said:


> post the article up it would be cool to see, over the 25+yrs i have been using steroids i have argued and clashed with many medical professionals who to be honest seem to have no real understanding of steroid use or how to treat any issues, normally they dismiss it all as "well you shouldn't be using you bad bad man" *whilst sitting in their chair in a clinically obese state*........
> 
> if you post it up i will make sure the thread is kept on track and you get mature feedback.


 This is very true, however Doesn't using "sports enhancing supplements " carries similar risks to smoking.

I came across with heavy smokers who were nearly 100 years old never had serious illness. There are people who absent from alcohol smoke and drug use. They follow a healthy lifestyle with no family history of disease and they died unexplained.

No one can control the cells within a human body.


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

nitrogen said:


> This is very true, however Doesn't using "sports enhancing supplements " carries similar risks to smoking.
> 
> I came across with heavy smokers who were nearly 100 years old never had serious illness. There are people who absent from alcohol smoke and drug use. They follow a healthy lifestyle with no family history of disease and they died unexplained.
> 
> No one can control the cells within a human body.


 i think you are misunderstanding my point.....

we all have examples of people living on the edge that have not been badly ill or died........but my point was/is those in glass houses should not throw stones......

i don't go around condemning overweight people, people that smoke or drink heavily preaching to them in what they should or shouldn't do (only if asked) but it seems perfectly reasonable for (as in this case) a clinically obese individual to preach and condemn me on the choice i have made.....yet chances are physically i am in way better health that he was.

to be fair the risks with taking steroids is not the same as smoking, you can take steroids and not actually effect your health in a bad way, this has been shown many times in the medical field (TRT, burns victims etc) in fact in some taking steroids has in fact improved their health.........if you smoke you will damage your health this is a fact that cannot be dismissed, you may not die but your lungs, blood etc will be negatively effected so not really the same level of risk.

this is not me saying that steroid use is without risk as there is a huge risk that needs to be understood especially with individuals that take the "More is better route"


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Doc said:


> I am a Doctor and I've written an article for GPs about how to treat steroid users. This includes side-effects and how to monitor for any long-term complications.
> 
> It would be really useful to get some feedback from a user before it's finally submitted.
> 
> ...


 There is an organisation called NICE which provided the guidance and framework under which NHS staff must work. Forgive my bluntness - but it's somewhat unheard off for NICE to post on random websites asking for feedback on their directives before releasing them.

Furthermore - it's NICE who would look at the cost benefit analysis of any long term treatment - and it's not got individual GP's to decide. There would be no funding available for monitoring large scale long term complications.

I'll happily read it either via PM or on here. But I don't get why you wouldn't state both your name and more specifics about what this is all about. Your name would be on a final report anyway... So I don't get it. Are you perhaps a medical student or FY1/2 who is doing this as coursework/demonstrating competencies? It doesn't matter to me if you are - but it does matter in terms of what the end result of the report will be.

Either way - my offer stands to read it.


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## GameofThrones (Feb 4, 2016)

@Doc How are we supposed to read this article if you haven't posted it. Nobody cares that much to send you a pm request.


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## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

Pscarb said:


> post the article up it would be cool to see, over the 25+yrs i have been using steroids i have argued and clashed with many medical professionals who to be honest seem to have no real understanding of steroid use or how to treat any issues, normally they dismiss it all as "well you shouldn't be using you bad bad man" whilst sitting in their chair in a clinically obese state........
> 
> if you post it up i will make sure the thread is kept on track and you get mature feedback.


 The truth is, apart from the few who were idiots before they began a journey along the AAS route, and their stupidity therefore carried over into their use of AAS, most "educated" AAS users with a few cycles under their belt know way more about AAS than your average doctor. IMO.


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## Gary29 (Aug 21, 2011)

GameofThrones said:


> @Doc How are we supposed to read this article if you haven't posted it. Nobody cares that much to send you a pm request.


 We're not, it;s some really weird trolling attempt.


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## Doc (May 16, 2016)

Many thanks for all your comments.

Apologies for not explaining more about the article in my initial post.

The article is for a medical journal and therefore can't be posted publicly prior to publication.

Doctors would potentially be negligent for not suggesting users should stop but I agree Doctors can be unnecessarily preachy and patronising. Most people will carry on using and its about working with you guys to make sure there aren't any serious problems developing not preaching to you every time we see you.

The reason for writing this article was to try and educate medical professionals about steroid use, because as you point out, we are not the experts - hence my request!

Thank you to those who offered to help, I'll message you.


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## Archaic (Mar 8, 2010)

Doc said:


> Many thanks for all your comments.
> 
> Apologies for not explaining more about the article in my initial post.
> 
> ...


 Are you able to send PMs yet? Before the forum upgrade you had to reach a certain membership level to prevent scammers etc. Not sure what the crack is now...?

If you can PM, I'd be interested in reading your article.

Just a heads up though, you are potentially opening yourself up to open critique if there any holes. I've used on/off since 2008. Complete HPTA shutdown, 2 million sperm count, restored HPTA, fertility, had two kids since and have dealt with a few other issues, such as gyno via elevated E2/Prolactin, elevated SHGB, elevated RBC, high BP, dangerously high Potassium levels- And sorted them all myself via own research. Did have to go in hospital for the elevated Potas tho, 10 hrs on a drip.

If you want a genuine proof read, fire me your article. If it's biased or incomplete info tho, you may take some flack - especially given your intentions of putting forth the article.


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## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

I'm in, PM me


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Doc said:


> Many thanks for all your comments.
> 
> Apologies for not explaining more about the article in my initial post.
> 
> ...


 May I ask a few questions:

1) How do you expect the average user of anabolic steroids to follow something which has the target audience of trained professionals?

2) Why don't you introduce yourself. If your paper is published it will have your name at the top.

3) What makes you think sending the paper to random people on the internet is going to stop it being put somewhere publicly?

4) Sorry if this sounds rude - but if you don't consider yourself an expert in the field, why are you writing a paper on it?

5) What is the title of this paper? There is no reason not to share that publicly. I want to understand exactly what it's about.

I'm known for my bluntness and rudeness - so I apologise for any offence. But I'm at a loss here... It's like a medical professional/academic going onto a cancer forum and asking for their advice and review before submitting a paper. It's unconventional. As I'm sure you are aware - patient feedback is taken, but not at this level. But during clinical trials.

Finally - if you are going to use any feedback (if you were not planning on doing so it would be a waste of time) - how are you going to determine if the source of said feedback knows what they are talking about? I cannot see "as confirmed by 5 randoms on uk-muscle" being accepted by an editor of any respectable journal.


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## Pabloslabs (Feb 19, 2015)

sammym said:


> Furthermore - it's NICE who would look at the cost benefit analysis of any long term treatment - and it's not got individual GP's to decide. There would be no funding available for monitoring large scale long term complications.
> 
> I'll happily read it either via PM or on here. But I don't get why you wouldn't state both your name and more specifics about what this is all about. Your name would be on a final report anyway... So I don't get it. Are you perhaps a medical student or FY1/2 who is doing this as coursework/demonstrating competencies? It doesn't matter to me if you are - but it does matter in terms of what the end result of the report will be.
> 
> Either way - my offer stands to read it.


 f**k NICE. Nothing but a bit-part pawn for the pharmaceutical industry. Funded by the pharma Giants to the agenda of the pharma Giants.

Not having a go at your point which is totally correct - they would never ask for the random publics input in a non-funded survey.

but along with the media and the government, they are nothing but another greedy vechicle to deliver the agenda of big pharma.


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Pabloslabs said:


> f**k NICE. Nothing but a bit-part pawn for the pharmaceutical industry. Funded by the pharma Giants to the agenda of the pharma Giants.
> 
> Not having a go at your point which is totally correct - they would never ask for the random publics input in a non-funded survey.
> 
> but along with the media and the government, they are nothing but another greedy vechicle to deliver the agenda of big pharma.


 Where have you gotten that from? Someone said recently that I am knowledgable on some topics. The number of topics is very few. But this is one of them.

NICE have many flaws - but the idea that they play the song of big Pharma is ludicrous. Quite the opposite actually. They do cost benefit analysis on everything. I could give you a long long list of treatments which are mandated where better options exist simply because the drugs are off patent and therefore significantly cheaper. This is VERY common with Cancer meds.

Here is some reading which might give you an insight into what big pharma think of nice.

http://www.thepharmaletter.com/article/big-pharma-calls-for-reform-of-the-uk-s-drug-pricing-watchdog-nice

An aside: what you might be talking about is clinical trials which are funded by big pharma and are conducted in NHS hospitals. Those are common - and are a great thing both for patients, the NHS and everyone really. But NICE are not linked to clinical trials directly. And they certainly receive no funding from any pharmaceutical company.

Here is the accounts from one year. Look for how is nice funded:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/330383/NICE_annual_report_2013-2014_WEB.pdf


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## 39005 (Nov 25, 2013)

most medical journal publications are not open to the general public , as such no one here has any control on the use of information given and in what context it is used.

any genuine GP doing research should not have any problem PMing people his/her GMC registration so that anyone giving information can check credentials beforehand and contact you via phone if they wish.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

sammym said:


> May I ask a few questions:
> 
> 1) How do you expect the average user of anabolic steroids to follow something which has the target audience of trained professionals?
> 
> ...


 I don't understand why you are being so critical. Assuming the OP is genuine then it seems entirely reasonable to consult people here for additional information. Getting input from the likes of pscarb can only improve an article like this. Generally the criticism here is of GPs not knowing the first thing about AAS use, so if one is actually trying to improve this then people here should be encouraging this.

@Doc I don't use steroids myself or I would offer to help.


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> I don't understand why you are being so critical. Assuming the OP is genuine then it seems entirely reasonable to consult people here for additional information. Getting input from the likes of pscarb can only improve an article like this. Generally the criticism here is of GPs not knowing the first thing about AAS use, so if one is actually trying to improve this then people here should be encouraging this.
> 
> @Doc I don't use steroids myself or I would offer to help.


 well said, I have offered to help as I think this can only increase understanding on the topic and he needs a range of people, ages, backgrounds, goals


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I don't understand why you are being so critical. Assuming the OP is genuine then it seems entirely reasonable to consult people here for additional information. Getting input from the likes of pscarb can only improve an article like this. Generally the criticism here is of GPs not knowing the first thing about AAS use, so if one is actually trying to improve this then people here should be encouraging this.
> 
> @Doc I don't use steroids myself or I would offer to help.


 It's just very unconventional in terms of articles which are to be submitted to a peer reviewed journal. You may feel it's entirely reasonable to consult on here - but I can assure you that the editor of whatever journal it is would not. Everything has to be referenced - meaning you have to be able to show how you have come to that conclusion. It's not an opportunity for people to have there say or voice opinions. Here is an extract from something similar:

"Boje, 1939 was the first to suggest that exogenous testosterone administration may enhance athletic performance. By the late 1940's and 1950's testosterone compounds were experimented with by some west coast bodybuilders (Yesalis et al., 2000). The first dramatic reports of anabolic steroid use occurred following the 1954 world weightlifting championships (Yesalis et al., 2000)."

Now I actually agree with you that pscarb and other members could probably aid in the understanding of anabolic steroids to GP's generally. But the bit's in brackets are what the editor is looking for. And if you put (Pscarb. 2016) and then referenced PM's on uk-muscle it would not go down well. What I'm trying to say is that an academic article is not where you would put forth the arguments and suggestions off steroid users. And you certainly would not use them to check over your work before submission.

What's more - work like this is not aimed at the general population. Meaning that it would be hard going to read it. And you would spend more time on google looking things up rather than reading the article. And I'm not really convinced for the reasons I stated earlier- aqualung who works in the health service has also raised valid concerns. I am slightly concerned members may actually be adding their opinion to a newspaper/online article rather than a published paper.

@JohhnyC here is something similar to what you are offering to go over: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827559/ have a read and ask yourself if you really think you are qualified to add/edit and alter what is written.


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

sammym said:


> @JohhnyC here is something similar to what you are offering to go over: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3827559/ have a read and ask yourself if you really think you are qualified to add/edit and alter what is written.


 no, not on the technical side but its very valid to comment on the issues like Psychological and Behavioral aspects and dealing with them, reasons why AAS users are attracted to AAS in the first place and so forth.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

sammym said:


> It's just very unconventional in terms of articles which are to be submitted to a peer reviewed journal. You may feel it's entirely reasonable to consult on here - but I can assure you that the editor of whatever journal it is would not.


 I am a healthcare professional and a scientist who has published work in peer reviewed journals. I understand how these things work.

The OP has referred to writing 'an article for GPs', not a piece of primary research to be published in a peer reviewed journal. Also, anecdotal information on side effects from a number of experienced bodybuilders would not in itself be inherantly useless for the latter anyway, so long as it was correctly identified as such.

Edit: actually I realise in his second post Doc did say it was for a medical journal.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

It would also be entirely possible that people here may raise some points that Doc is unaware of, but could subsequently confirm via other published work and then include in his article accordingly.


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## Acidreflux (Mar 3, 2015)

Pscarb said:


> post the article up it would be cool to see, over the 25+yrs i have been using steroids i have argued and clashed with many medical professionals who to be honest seem to have no real understanding of steroid use or how to treat any issues, normally they dismiss it all as "well you shouldn't be using you bad bad man" whilst sitting in their chair in a clinically obese state........
> 
> if you post it up i will make sure the thread is kept on track and you get mature feedback.


 Just out of curiosity 25 years is a long time to use gear..

how is you're health in general has gear use caused any issues that are irreversible?


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I am a healthcare professional and a scientist who has published work in peer reviewed journals. I understand how these things work.
> 
> The OP has referred to writing 'an article for GPs', not a piece of primary research to be published in a peer reviewed journal. Also, anecdotal information on side effects from a number of experienced bodybuilders would not in itself be inherantly useless for the latter anyway, so long as it was correctly identified as such.


 "The article is for a medical journal and therefore can't be posted publicly prior to publication"

How many medical Journals are not peer reviewed? Thats a serious question - as it's your field.

I'm not going to argue though - and will accept that you have published work in the medical field. I have not. Is it possible you could PM me a link to one of your paper's if one is hosted online. I am interested as it's hugely different in terms of format to my field from the sounds of things.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

sammym said:


> "The article is for a medical journal and therefore can't be posted publicly prior to publication"
> 
> How many medical Journals are not peer reviewed? Thats a serious question - as it's your field.
> 
> I'm not going to argue though - and will accept that you have published work in the medical field. I have not. Is it possible you could PM me a link to one of your paper's if one is hosted online. I am interested as it's hugely different in terms of format to my field from the sounds of things.


 I edited my post above while you were writing this. I would agree that what I would understand by the term 'medical journal' would be peer reviewed, although I suspect that some letters, opinion pieces etc would not be sent out to full peer review.

E-mailing you a paper I have published would prove nothing since you have no way of knowing who I am. My papers are physics/medical physics related rather than what most would take the term 'medical' to mean BTW. I have not had work published in anything I would describe as a medical journal.


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> I edited my post above while you were writing this. I would agree that what I would understand by the term 'medical journal' would be peer reviewed, although I suspect that some letter, opinion pieces etc would not be sent out to full peer review.
> 
> E-mailing you a paper I have published would prove nothing since you have no way of knowing who I am. My papers are physics/medical physics related rather than what most would take the term 'medical' to mean BTW.


 My background is in physics originally, and then moved on to RF engineering - now I do as little as possible. I don't want to challenge you - I didn't mean it like that. I was just genuinely interested to see a paper where that was let though. I don't care who the author was. I just wanted to see something different.

Complete aside - but I don't agree with editors and how they limit ideas and opinions always. And I'd agree that if the OP said he was writing this for medical magazine or something similar it would not be odd. But outside of the remit of controlled studies and statistical analysis I don't see how you would get anyone's opinions past an editor. I'm sure the OP will clear it up. And I'm going to go away as I'm taking this thread completely of course.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

sammym said:


> And I'd agree that if the OP said he was writing this for medical magazine or something similar it would not be odd. But outside of the remit of controlled studies and statistical analysis I don't see how you would get anyone's opinions past an editor. I'm sure the OP will clear it up. And I'm going to go away as I'm taking this thread completely of course.


 I totally understand where you're coming from, and this does all depend quite what sort of article it is, and what sort of information Doc is hoping to gain from people here. But as I suggested above it would seem reasonable to see if people here would point out any obvious weaknesses in the article, which Doc could then look into properly and improve the article accordingly. Also bear in mind that Doc may not have much/any experience of getting work published...

(I won't send you a paper of mine as I choose to stay anonymous here, ironically due to the open talk of steroid use. There is far more interesting research out there to read than mine though!)


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## 3752 (Jan 7, 2005)

Acidreflux said:


> Just out of curiosity 25 years is a long time to use gear..
> 
> how is you're health in general has gear use caused any issues that are irreversible?


 my health in regards to steroid use is very good thank you


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Just to update - I've received a PM from Doc. And a simple search of the email address confirms that he both is a medical doctor and a specialist in sports medicine with plenty of published material. I'm not giving his identity away but the bloke is more that what he says he is. And up until the start of this season I had a season ticket for his old club.

I'm making a habbit of assuming things and being wrong. But he's got more published material than I've got friends on facebook. So yeah - if I put anyone off ignore me and crack on. I think I was swayed by the wording - but that probably is because he had some life experience before becoming a doctor. Excuses over.


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## Doc (May 16, 2016)

Apologies for my dodgy wording!

Many thanks again for all your comments, and to those that have offered to read through the article or be contacted. I can only send 1 message per day due to my newbie status so I can't PM everyone I'm afraid!

This is an educational piece for Doctors in a medical journal rather than primary research, therefore further comments about the topic on this forum are also really helpful. The reason for soliciting feedback from users is so that the information provided for Doctors in the article is most useful to you guys if you do seek treatment from a Doctor (for steroid related issues or otherwise). Doctors do the job to help patients - if the information or approach we take isn't helpful or beneficial for patients we aren't doing our job properly. Top journals now mandate feedback/ comments from patients so that articles are patient focused, even if they may not fully understand all the scientific content.

It would be useful to know what you expect or would like from a Doctor (obvious we can't prescribe steroids!). Also, any other positive or negative experiences with the medical profession would be helpful.

In terms of the health risks associated with anabolic steroid use, their use is associated with a significantly increased risk of many health complications. That doesn't mean you'll get any or all of them, it just increases the risk. Much like smoking significantly increases the risk of cancer or being inactive significantly increases the risk of a heart attack: not everyone who doesn't exercise has a heart attack and not everyone who smokes gets cancer.

Just a reply to another comment - anabolic steroids are a different type of steroid to steroids used in medicine (which are used predominately to reduce inflammation in many diseases but won't promote any muscle growth).

Thanks again.


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## Jammy Dodger (Nov 2, 2014)

Doc I'm happy to PM on your behalf if you write down a list of people - I can send loads. I'll just send the same message as you sent me. Really sorry about not getting back to you yet. I've got a project on at work and abusing prescription drugs to stay up and get it done. Just don't have time. But I will.


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## Quackerz (Dec 19, 2015)

Doc said:


> Apologies for my dodgy wording!
> 
> Many thanks again for all your comments, and to those that have offered to read through the article or be contacted. I can only send 1 message per day due to my newbie status so I can't PM everyone I'm afraid!
> 
> ...


 A real understanding of post cycle therapy for AAS use would be a good start, you can find a lot of information on that here.

On a side note you can prescribe steroids, it's called TRT. There are many men with low testosterone who seek out using UGL products as an alternative to NHS treatment as a result of barley scraping the minimum standards for test levels and being turned away by the NHS as a result. This is, IMO a fairly widespread issue that should be addressed. If fat people can get mobility scooters on the NHS, I think people suffering from low testosterone should be able to get TRT. Something that for the most part is also not self inflicted.


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## 39005 (Nov 25, 2013)

because you can post but not pm it might be easier if you complied a list of questions yourself and posted it here , the problems that can be associated with the long term use of AAS is quite well known already and most GP's attach the same stigma to it as hard drug use - this is what needs to change first.


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## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

I wonder if under the circumstances it might be possible for @Lorian to increase PM rights?


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## nitrogen (Oct 25, 2007)

Hey doc. Can you analyse my sperm count?


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