# Protecting your HPTA on AAS



## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok so in the time i've used AAS i have to say the one side effect that i've always been aware of is "Shut Down" as it can cause a range of issues if you are not careful, and lets face it not being able to have sex with your gf is not a desirable effect. Once you understand how Steroids work it's pretty obvious how shut down happens, there may be people reading this who don't fully understand so i'll briefly explain as it's important to understand this if you are going to be using Steroids. The Hypothalmic-Pituitary-Testicular-Axis or HPTA is almost like a thermostat for central heating except it controls your testosterone levels instead of the temperature of your home, just like in a house when the temperature drops below a certain level it will recognize this with your testosterone levels and correct it. In a nut shell once your body realizes that your testosterone levels are lower than they should be the Hypothalamic region of your brain releases GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone) which in turn signals the Pituitary to release LH (Luteinizing Hormone) which stimulates the testicles to secrete more testosterone.

So that's how it works in an untouched body without Steroids when there is too little testosterone, but just like with central heating if there is too much heat the boiler (production) is switched off. Now the average male produces about 5-7mg's of testosterone per day, so lets say 50mg's per week... so when we shoot eg 500-1000mg per week our bodies recognize this and think "hang on we've got waaaay more than we need" and tests will show that LH levels are severely suppressed as a reaction to the rise in testosterone levels. And with the suppressed LH levels eventually you will get testicular atrophy (shrunken testicles) that produce very little testosterone and in some cases bodybuilders have been so severely shut down after years of steroid abuse that when they eventually do come off even a 300lb male may have less testosterone than a 50lb 6 year old girl, which is pretty scary.

From the research that i've done i've come to the conclusion that using anti-oestrogens as a PCT may not be the most effective way to completely protect your body from shut down. Anti oestrogens do have their uses of course, and in (my) opinion the main use is when on cycle and that's to stop the effects after testosterone has converted to oestrogen in the body, as an example one of the effects would be when the oestrogen binds to receptors behind the nipple and creates breast tissue (gyno). Some people like me prefer to use an Anti-Aromizer when on cycle for example Arimidex which helps stop the conversion in the 1st place rather than stopping the effects of the already converted oestrogen. In a PCT the one arguable benefit of Anti E's is that they can block the negative feedback of oestrogen which can increase LH, however LH actually recovers quite fast when you come off a cycle, it's the testicular atrophy (in my opinion) that is the main issue. Imagine your body sending a normal amount of LH signal to the testes, but they are smaller and inefficient so the signal is not strong enough for them to produce the amount needed, like a broken boiler trying to keep your house at 30.c - even though the thermostat is telling it too, it just can't as it's not running at full capacity.

So to conclude on that - in my time of using Steroids i have noticed that with regular use of Steroids, PCT may not be the best tool to stop testicular shut down but prevention is the best option, i'm not saying that you should not do PCT at all but don't think that it's going to prevent shut down if you are using Steroids a lot. The most useful medication i have come across to prevent shut down is HCG, before i explain this i'd like to say that if it's your 1st cycle or if you just run the occasional cycle eg one 10 week cycle a year it may not even be needed, keep things simple. But for seasoned users or people who cycle often it may just be the best shut down preventive tool available on the market. HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin) is a prescription drug used for fertility that mimics the bodies natural LH, if you are shut down we've already clarified that your testes are not reacting as much as they should to your natural production of LH so injecting HCG mimics a massive boost in LH will help towards the restoration and adding of testicular mass until they are back to normal. Or even better, use a small dose of HCG throughout cycle to stop atrophy in the 1st place and if done correctly it will make PCT a breeze.

I've been reading up a lot on this subject recently so thought it may be of benefit, and i'd like for any other people who are knowledgeable on this subject to add to this thread with any preventive measures / drugs that may be of use for this purpose. I remember when i was a bit younger and i had no idea about shut down, i was on cycle for a long time using a high dose of Nandralone or Deca as it's commonly known, i got shut down and i got shut down very badly and believe me it's not good, i had to take about a year off AAS use to get back to normal and i very much doubt i'll want to use Deca again after that experience. Anyway the point of this thread is for people to share experiences of shut down, and what they did to get back to normal. Many people inject steroids and take tabs with no idea of what it can do to the HPTA, most of these will end up in trouble and severely shut down, just like i did before i had educated myself on the subject. Any input from PCT / HPTA experts would be a great addition to this thread.

So, have you been shut down? What did you do to prevent it? What do you know about this subject?


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## Yoshi (Oct 4, 2011)

I've had a few convos with hacks on this...

His power pct works really well, because if you don't using highly suppressive aas like deca will shut you down hard and can take up to a year to bring back naturally

Ausbuilt advises Clomid 50mg eod while on cycle and an ai which he believes stops his balls from shrinking and prevents him shutting down, which is while he has been on a heavy aas cycle for 6 months

Im no master just advising what I've been told, hope it helped


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Yeah, among others Auz and Hackskii would have some good input for this thread, i've emailed them both :thumbup1:


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## Yoshi (Oct 4, 2011)

I think unless you going to run hcg through cycle but again even running it through cycle I would still do hacks aggressive pct maybe adding some prov for sex drive at 50mg a day


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

I'm thinking about having a long break after this cycle, so maybe i'll be trying out Hacks' aggressive PCT


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## Yoshi (Oct 4, 2011)

Raptor said:


> I'm thinking about having a long break after this cycle, so maybe i'll be trying out Hacks' aggressive PCT


i've personally used this pct before after a 6 month cycle of deca, and found it worked really well mate... felt better after a couple of days


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

I have been the same. I know my reason - stupidity.

I didnt use hcg on a 12 week test and deca cycle, idea was to cruise for 6 weeks on low dose test, i didnt as put it off and before i knew it the time was up to start blast, now i have started the blast and only just started hcg at 1000iu a week. Silly really considering i knew i shouldnt be doing that!!!!!!


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## El Toro Mr UK98 (Nov 11, 2011)

Realy good post there, i usually cba to read such a long post but it had me interested.

Im just on week 8 of 12 anavar, proviron and prope with hgh cycle, also been doing hcg 3 x ed total of800iu ew.

My nuts still feel full and i know its not the harshest of cycles but i suffer from hypertrophy anyway so its a big deal for me.

Ive just started another thread about DAA about half hour ago, i was thinking of firing this in with my pct to help keep my test in range as it naturally will drop down as i am on trt also cos of low test.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Suprakill4 said:


> I have been the same. I know my reason - stupidity.
> 
> I didnt use hcg on a 12 week test and deca cycle, idea was to cruise for 6 weeks on low dose test, i didnt as put it off and before i knew it the time was up to start blast, now i have started the blast and only just started hcg at 1000iu a week. Silly really considering i knew i shouldnt be doing that!!!!!!


If i'm honest i've actually neglected shut down prevention recently, and i have noticed some shut down too... the most noticeable / painful recent one was was when a nice girl was asking for anal and after a few beers my dick just wasn't having it! Heart breaking was that, it has happened before that and i need to start being more careful. It's almost like i know what i should be doing, but don't always do it.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Nice post.

Some things worth mentioning for clarification here.

Leydig cells comprise only about 10% of the mass in the testicles.

Testicular atrophy wont stop even with the use of HCG as FSH is not being sent to the sertoli cells to produce sperm.

Now with the use of HMG, which contains both LH and FSH to me along with some HCG would probably be the best deterrent to testicular atrophy, but, I have not heard of anyone doing that, and the expense probably would not be worth the preventative measure, but no doubt would probably be the best.

Beings that this has never been used, I do not know how effective it would be, nor the complications of the potential for desensitization issues.

Just thinking aloud here.

Keeping estrogen in check on a aromitizable cycle would be a great idea to keep shutdown to a minimum as one of the methods of homeostasis with an aromitizable steroid cycle would be the conversion of testosterone to estrogen, and estrogen is approx 200 times more suppressive than testosterone.

I do not agree that clomid would keep pituitary function, that has been mentioned a lot lately, but nothing suggests it would work, and nobody has any proof it has worked, as androgen's are suppressive in them selves even in light of estrogen being kept in check.

The body will maintain homeostasis and if androgen's are in excess, nothing will force the body to produce endogenous LH except possibly GnRH (which is totally not even practical), and possibly Naltrexone.

Naltrexone sounds like a good drug as both LH and FSH would be working, but from the feedback I have had although it sounds promising, it does not appear effective on tren, deca, and probably some other gears.

Like most things moderation would be key here.

If you are more susceptible to shutdown, choose shorter cycles.

Select gear that is not as suppressive.

Use amounts that get the job done and not rely on gear to do the work for you.

Use an AI if you are using gear that converts to estrogen.

Use HCG throughout, to keep leydig cell sensitivity.

Start your PCT when the gear becomes somewhere at or just below normal base values.

Aside from blood pressure issues, gyno, shutdown is the single biggest thing that turns me off from gear.

I love to use gear, it makes me feel awesome, but what goes up, must come down.

Now, if I was on TRT, that would all be a mute point. :lol:


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## sunn (Apr 11, 2011)

Currently reading william llewelyn's anabolics 9th edition moster of a book but very informative will have to read it many time to get my head around it all.... I have currently not ran a cycle.

Anyway back to the thread from what I understand clomid and nolva stop estrogen binding but amridex stops it lowers it in the first instance.....from my understanding some estrogen is benficial so wouldn't taking an ai whilst on deminish the results of your muscle gain on cycle?

Great thread btw


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I also want to add women produce testosterone as well as men, but at about 1/10th the amount from the adrenal glands.

We also produce testosterone without the testicles much the same way as women, so our numbers even shutdown will look the same.

One other thing that was not addressed was adrenal burnout.

Even testosterone converts to DHT.

DHT is a CNS stimulant, and long cycles tend to burn out the adrenal glands, so some time off would be needed for adrenal recovery, for lipid profiles, and among other systems in the body.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

sunn said:


> Currently reading william llewelyn's anabolics 9th edition moster of a book but very informative will have to read it many time to get my head around it all.... I have currently not ran a cycle.
> 
> Anyway back to the thread from what I understand clomid and nolva stop estrogen binding but amridex stops it lowers it in the first instance.....from my understanding some estrogen is benficial so wouldn't taking an ai whilst on deminish the results of your muscle gain on cycle?
> 
> Great thread btw


Yes, it is necessary, for mood, libido, bone density, lipid profiles, among other things.

Crushing estrogen would not be good for you, or your muscles.


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## Suprakill4 (Jul 11, 2008)

HAHA,. gutting for you mate, bet she thought she was doing a great thing aswel letting you do it up the poo pipe and you couldnt LOL!!


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

hackskii said:


> I do not agree that clomid would keep pituitary function, that has been mentioned a lot lately, but nothing suggests it would work, and nobody has any proof it has worked, as androgen's are suppressive in them selves even in light of estrogen being kept in check.


Thanks for the good input Hacks, and RE the snipped above... i've read many different opinions on Clomid, and some are now saying that by mechanism it doesn't raise testosterone at all and that it's just an anti e, whats your opinions on Clomid? And if you don't mind what is your aggressive PCT that Mac-Uk mentioned?


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## Yoshi (Oct 4, 2011)

2500iu hcg for 8 shots eod,

100/100/100/100 clomid

20/20/20/20nolva


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

sunn said:


> Currently reading william llewelyn's anabolics 9th edition moster of a book but very informative will have to read it many time to get my head around it all.... I have currently not ran a cycle.
> 
> Anyway back to the thread from what I understand clomid and nolva stop estrogen binding but amridex stops it lowers it in the first instance.....from my understanding some estrogen is benficial *so wouldn't taking an ai whilst on deminish the results of your muscle gain on cycle?*
> 
> Great thread btw


Yes, when on steroids much of the immediate strength gains are due to water in the muscles... because having an extra 10lbs of water in your muscles makes them function better and even lubes up your joints and increases muscle strength. Much of the water retention on cycle is caused by oestrogen, so yes if you were going for an all out bulk and didn't care about having a bit of water retention, minimizing the anti e's is a good idea as the strength gains and water will help build new muscle


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## sunn (Apr 11, 2011)

hackskii said:


> Yes, it is necessary, for mood, libido, bone density, lipid profiles, among other things.
> 
> Crushing estrogen would not be good for you, or your muscles.


Ok so people take an ai to reduce the water retention when on cycle should this only be taken then if water etention were to get to a high level? Its actuallly this that give us the strength gains isn't it? Are you suggestto take a low does of an ai on cycle to simply contain it rather than depleting it altogether?

Thanks as youi can see I'm no expert!


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

MacUK said:


> 2500iu hcg for 8 shots eod,
> 
> 100/100/100/100 clomid
> 
> 20/20/20/20nolva


How did you find this? And how long was it until you were recovered?


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## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

What I'd like to know is the following:

(i) Will taking clomid EOD on cycle badly impact me assuming I also follow the 500-1000 HCG protocal? Overstim of the pituitary? i.e. is there any harm regardless of whether it works or not?

(ii) Any value in Triptorelin or Leuproline or other similar as a boost at the beginning? If yes it seems you have to stay off clomid to save the pituitary but go on nolva a certain amount of days afterwards?

(iii) Anyone got anymore info on naltrexone?


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## sunn (Apr 11, 2011)

Raptor pretty much read my mind there ta mate!


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## Yoshi (Oct 4, 2011)

Raptor said:


> How did you find this? And how long was it until you were recovered?


I felt much better within the first 3-5 days fully recovered week 3


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

For Hackskii - do you know any info on HMG that you mentioned?

Thanks


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## Ash1981 (Jun 16, 2009)

Having too much water retention can send your blood pressure through the roof

I think you need a fine line, to work out what works for you

Im doing 400 test a week and I'm doing 0.5mg adex e3d... Too much hacks????

I feel I am getting bloated after the 3rd day, so do a half


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Raptor said:


> Thanks for the good input Hacks, and RE the snipped above... i've read many different opinions on Clomid, and some are now saying that by mechanism it doesn't raise testosterone at all and that it's just an anti e, whats your opinions on Clomid? And if you don't mind what is your aggressive PCT that Mac-Uk mentioned?


Well, endo doctors use it to diagnose secondary hypogonadism.

100mg of clomid ED between 5 to 7 days doubles LH output and increases FSH by up to 50%



MacUK said:


> 2500iu hcg for 8 shots eod,
> 
> 100/100/100/100 clomid
> 
> 20/20/20/20nolva


Correction, the nolva is run for 6 weeks at 20mg ED, for the power PCT.



sunn said:


> Ok so people take an ai to reduce the water retention when on cycle should this only be taken then if water etention were to get to a high level? Its actuallly this that give us the strength gains isn't it? Are you suggestto take a low does of an ai on cycle to simply contain it rather than depleting it altogether?
> 
> Thanks as youi can see I'm no expert!


Correct, it is used for estrogen management.

You need some estrogen.



Superhorse said:


> What I'd like to know is the following:
> 
> (i) Will taking clomid EOD on cycle badly impact me assuming I also follow the 500-1000 HCG protocal? Overstim of the pituitary? i.e. is there any harm regardless of whether it works or not?
> 
> ...


(i) it wont over stim the piuitary.

(ii) I have never had any first hand use of Trip, or leu myself. Both clomid and nolva should be used during PCT IMO.

(iii) There is some information on other boards, PScarb has used it, so has Aftershock, but to what extent success or not, I do not know.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Raptor said:


> For Hackskii - do you know any info on HMG that you mentioned?
> 
> Thanks


Relativity new so to speak, used to be so expensive only fertility people could afford it with insurance, but it is getting more popular as prices drop.

Comes in two preparations similar in amps to HCG at 150/150 LH/FSH, and 75/75 LH/FSH.

Its worth noting that HCG by itself during cycles tend to have a negative impact on sperm density.



ash1981 said:


> Having too much water retention can send your blood pressure through the roof
> 
> I think you need a fine line, to work out what works for you
> 
> ...


That would sound about right, any gyno flairups by end of cycle go EOD.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

I was on for 10 months last eyar and used hcg throughout 500-1000iu weekly (dose/ass depending) combined with constant AI use, then 4 week pct, aromasin/clomid/nolva...worked a treat!


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

sunn said:


> Ok so people take an ai to reduce the water retention when on cycle should this only be taken then if water etention were to get to a high level? Its actuallly this that give us the strength gains isn't it? Are you suggestto take a low does of an ai on cycle to simply contain it rather than depleting it altogether?
> 
> Thanks as youi can see I'm no expert!


Not only for water but for gyno prevention and reducing suppression that estrogen causes.

You don't need much estrogen to gain muscle, otherwise we would all be taking extra estrogen. AIs don't crush ALL estrogen either, they just control it to varying extents.

Water retention doesn't give strength gains either really. Not sure where that's come from.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Conscript said:


> I was on for 10 months last eyar and used hcg throughout 500-1000iu weekly (dose/ass depending) combined with constant AI use, then 4 week pct, aromasin/clomid/nolva...worked a treat!


Do you feel that HCG can fully prevent shut down? I've just grabbed some Pregnyl as i've not had any in ages so will start to use again from today, my protocol was to use 1000iu each week when on, but i've just not bothered as much as i should of


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hackskii said:


> I also want to add women produce testosterone as well as men, but at about 1/10th the amount from the adrenal glands.
> 
> We also produce testosterone without the testicles much the same way as women, so our numbers even shutdown will look the same.
> 
> ...


adrenal output can be measured via cortisol levels:

24hour urine test: 13-36 is optimal for men (the urine test required is for 17-OH-steroids)

Saliva: morning 20-30, noon 7-11, evening 6-9 and night 5.

can be treated with tabs:

Predniso(lo)ne (eg prednicort) 2.5-7.5mg/day

or

Methyl-prednisolone (eg medrol) 2-6mg/day.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Raptor said:


> Do you feel that HCG can fully prevent shut down? I've just grabbed some Pregnyl as i've not had any in ages so will start to use again from today, my protocol was to use 1000iu each week when on, but i've just not bothered as much as i should of


i would say 1500iu 2x week through your cycle. i really doubt 1000iu once per week is enough, perhaps 2x week might be ok..


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## Ed Mac (Dec 31, 2009)

What about using LHRH or lh and fsh during cycle.Would using these make recovery of the hpta quicker after cycle?


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## johnyboy (Jan 15, 2010)

im running 300mg prop,100mg tren ace pw.1000iu hcg pw and 100mg proviron pd.seems to be working just fine.balls are sound.labido is also sound.gains are great.i never use massive amounts.dont seem to need to.


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## andyparry123 (Jul 22, 2005)

That would sound about right, any gyno flairups by end of cycle go EOD.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> i would say 1500iu 2x week through your cycle. i really doubt 1000iu once per week is enough, perhaps 2x week might be ok..


Hey mate, Since i've been off HCG for a while would you recommend i blast 1500iu 3x a week for 2 weeks?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ausbuilt said:


> adrenal output can be measured via cortisol levels:
> 
> 24hour urine test: 13-36 is optimal for men (the urine test required is for 17-OH-steroids)
> 
> ...


DHEA helps big time with adrenal issues and is a precursor for other sex steroids.

I think pregnenolone would be another nice feel good hormone that is a precursor for sex steroids as well.

Pregnenolone was researched back in the 40's that helped people under stress, helped people with more energy, used to fight fatigue, said to help with vision, memory, mental clarity, wellbeing, enhance memory, boost in libido, also said to have anti-inflammatory properties, and is called the mother of all hormones.

But just soon after cortisol came out and stole the limelight, so beings that pregnenolone can not be patented, no more Pregnenolone.

Dose would be somewhere around 5 to 10mg and comes in pills (worst pick), sublingual (better), and transdermal (best option).

Not sure where to get that one though.

Actually there is some conversion of some sort with HCG to Pregnenolone, how much, I don't know.

I have always wanted to add this to my PCT but could never get my hands on it.

Low dose DHEA along with Pregnenolone would probably be a great natural way to combat adrenal fatigue, but again, pretty much got out of the steroid deal and never followed through with it.

I know an endo doc that uses it for his guys, and also life extension folks use it.



chilisi said:


> What are your guys views on Proviron in PCT?


Well, I have my take on this.

I feel it is not necessary, but after PCT is finished, I did feel that it was a nice addition after all everything was done.

I ran it at 50mg for a month following PCT and felt good.

Generally speaking if libido is down, recovery was not fully achieved.


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## KRIS_B (Apr 17, 2011)

Nice thread raptor a very interesting read I've saved this page for future reference but just a little confirmation and approval of what I'm currently up to if any of you mind . I've been running test cyp 300 and tren enth 200 for 15 weeks up to now for a total of 16 weeks . My dosages have been in a pyramid starting from 1mil of each up to a maximum of 3mil of each pw then back down . And whilst I'm quite confident in my ancillaries i just want you to tell me what you think .

From weeks 4 through to now aromasin at 25mg eod

From week 8 to now hcg at 1000 iu pw

And planned pct nolva and clomid @ 20mg per day for 4 weeks

And possibly continue hcg at the same dose too ?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

20mg clomid you will be disappointed.

I would use 100mg myself, and run the HCG all the way through start time of PCT and actually a bit longer at least first week.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Raptor said:


> Do you feel that HCG can fully prevent shut down? I've just grabbed some Pregnyl as i've not had any in ages so will start to use again from today, my protocol was to use 1000iu each week when on, but i've just not bothered as much as i should of


I think hcg will definitely prevent a full shut down, atrophy was minimal even when I felt the need to increase to 1000iu weekly, 20% shrinkage at worst during cycle, and I don't think it takes long for the hpta to start firing it's own LH and as long as the leydig cells have been stimulated/maintained with hcg then it will be well received, should come back to full swing within pct, I certainly felt well on-line within 6 weeks of last jab (aas), libido, mood etc


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## KRIS_B (Apr 17, 2011)

hackskii said:


> 20mg clomid you will be disappointed.
> 
> I would use 100mg myself, and run the HCG all the way through start time of PCT and actually a bit longer at least first week.


Thanks mate so the 20mg of nolva is ok in your opinion then?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Leydig cells have only about 10% of the mass of the testicles so that in itself is a poor indicator of leydig cell sensitivity.

Just saying.

You literally could have tiny nuts, yet be within range of T levels.

Now to be fair, fertility would be seriously compromised same tiny size nuts:lol:

Fertility takes way longer post cycle to come around, up to a year, or longer.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

KRIS_B said:


> Thanks mate so the 20mg of nolva is ok in your opinion then?


Yes, no need to go higher with that one.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I think I should back off on the posting, and let others express them selves, I do not want to ruin the thread of my observations that may or not be valid anyway.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hackskii said:


> DHEA helps big time with adrenal issues and is a precursor for other sex steroids.
> 
> I think pregnenolone would be another nice feel good hormone that is a precursor for sex steroids as well.
> 
> ...


really agree with the libido point- if you need proviron (i.e essentially synthetic DHT) your PCT was a failure... it only covers a problem, it does not resolve it, it just makes it take longer to resolve..


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## Djibril (Aug 14, 2009)

so Without doing an Urine Test, would it be a good Idea running prednolone in a PCT?

Just checked and the cost is pretty darn Cheap, for 30 x 5mg tabs it costs as much as a testoviron ampoule


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

hackskii said:


> I think I should back off on the posting, and let others express them selves, I do not want to ruin the thread of my observations that may or not be valid anyway.


def not.. your points are needed. Very few have your insights. While I may not agree with all of them (notably clomid effecitveness), our points of disagreement are solely based on our knowledge of ourselves and friends, as there is no scientific data to support either your side or mine in that one particular area; generally though, there is not much disagreement- and there is not enough well thought out posts based on some knowledge (both scientifc and empirical) for you not to post. While I think some of our discusssions may make people's eyes glaze over.. its those kind of discussions that provide the most knowledge to the forum in the long term...


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Stathis said:


> so Without doing an Urine Test, would it be a good Idea running prednolone in a PCT?
> 
> Just checked and the cost is pretty darn Cheap, for 30 x 5mg tabs it costs as much as a testoviron ampoule


most non-steroidal drugs are cheap -but dont take the shot gun approach, why not do a saliva cortisol test. loads available on the net...


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## Djibril (Aug 14, 2009)

ausbuilt said:


> most non-steroidal drugs are cheap -but dont take the shot gun approach, why not do a saliva cortisol test. loads available on the net...


what do u mean over the net mate? i live in greece.

ill give the Doc a phone call to ask him about it


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Stathis said:


> what do u mean over the net mate? i live in greece.
> 
> ill give the Doc a phone call to ask him about it


there are plenty of USA and EU based labs that sell saliva cortisol tests, just google, saliva cortisol test kits:

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=saliva+cortisol+test+kid&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&sa=X&ei=SrJWT6DCOqHc4QSxrcmFCg&ved=0CCcQvwUoAQ&q=saliva+cortisol+test+kit&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=cd42fa2092e2aba0&biw=1280&bih=680


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## andyparry123 (Jul 22, 2005)

ausbuilt said:


> def not.. your points are needed. Very few have your insights. While I may not agree with all of them (notably clomid effecitveness), our points of disagreement are solely based on our knowledge of ourselves and friends, as there is no scientific data to support either your side or mine in that one particular area; generally though, there is not much disagreement- and there is not enough well thought out posts based on some knowledge (both scientifc and empirical) for you not to post. While I think some of our discusssions may make people's eyes glaze over.. its those kind of discussions that provide the most knowledge to the forum in the long term...


Amen to that


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## C.Hill (Nov 21, 2010)

MacUK said:


> I felt much better within the first 3-5 days fully recovered week 3


Fully recovered in 3 weeks??

Did you get bloods done?


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Stathis said:


> so Without doing an Urine Test, would it be a good Idea running *prednolone *in a PCT?
> 
> Just checked and the cost is pretty darn Cheap, for 30 x 5mg tabs it costs as much as a testoviron ampoule


I'd be interested in hearing more about this med ^


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

chilisi said:


> I saw my endo last year and when my results came back, it showed I was a long way off starting recovery. We spoke about my Pct etc and he actually laughed when I said I ran Proviron in the Pct.(I used the ROHM PCT Caps) He basically said, it only masks the problem, keeping you supressed. Guys get horny and lots of wood so they think their recovered. In reality, as my bloods as proof I wasn't no where near. This was 6-7 weeks after my 4 week PCT had finished.
> 
> I did however, not run my HCG as planned on cycle. I'm not 100% sure if it was the Proviron or HCG, but I doubt i'll be using Proviron in my PCT again.


Absolutely.

I know a guy that was clinically hypogonadism from steroids yet had no problem having sex and normal libido.

At first he was losing weight and didn't feel all that great but normal libido.

All the signs of hypogonadism yet, normal libido and could keep an erection.

I said, if I hadn't known better id swear you were shut down but libido left me totally out of the loop.

Took blood and bang, shutdown.

Today, nothing surprises me.

Guys can have all blood work in normal ranges and give symptoms of hypogonadism and not be.

Guys with crap blood work coming below normal range and appear normal.

In the case of the guy with shutdown and normal libido, I think it may have to do with the mind.

For the guy with normal bloods and no libido, it may have to do with the mind.

Some stuff you wont be able to put a finger on.

There are so many things that have to work to get an erection it isn't funny.

I remember reading one doc suggest that if anything in the loop whether it be some brain chemicals, hormonal chemicals, and even vasodilation all have to come into play to get an erection, he suggested that it would be almost a miracle that it happens, yet we take it for granted.

Being young, you are invincible, immortal, then when you get older, you kind of face what is going on.

At work, I ask many of the guys questions about sex and stuff, I found it totally strange that many men my age (50's) do not get night time erections.

Even my identical twin talks to me about stuff with masturbation and stuff (we are married:lol, and the guys cant believe how many times he pulls off.

A black guy at work almost called him a liar once because he said he just had 2 minutes to pull one of before work and the guy was like that's not possible. :lol:

I know guys my age that never think about sex.

Shocking, and sad.

I love that feeling of thinking about sex and what a woman looks like naked......I love that.

But, the day will come when that wont happen.

Sad

Just when you think you have seen it all, you have not seen anything.

Nothing surprises me anymore, nothing.


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## Mr_Morocco (May 28, 2011)

How did guys in the 70's-80's etc get on with no pct/hcg etc?

Does age dictate your PCT and on cycle drugs?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

chilisi said:


> Vasodilation, Brain and Hormone Chemicals must have been working over time, when I was 13-14 years old.
> 
> But you're right, a lot can be down to your mental state. Me and the wife are trying for a baby. A few months back, her LH was at peak and she was ovulating, so it was time for sex..... Yeah sex if I could get a hardon. Pressure and it being a science experiment, put me off. Not very sexy
> 
> I worked with a guy a few months back, in his late fifties. We were both sat in the Airport, waiting for our flight and this guy couldn't stop nudging me and pointing to women he would like to bang! And we had to share a room, at work. I made sure I knocked before going in, incase he was throwing himself around in there! He was putting me to shame and i'm only 31!


One thing I found very bad post cycle was the fact that once the PCT was done I had a big fear that I would not be able to have sex with my woman.

The very thought of me not being able to perform stopped me.

The more I thought about it, the more in the back of my head I thought it would happen, then it manifested itself.

Some times we our our worst enemies.

On another occasion some years ago, I got into some crazy thing where every woman turned me on, that day I was like WTF, only and always thought about sex like I was on a test cycle.

I was not but I swear old ladies made me hard and I was at work.

I was so confused that I thought something was wrong with me.

Then it went away.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

chilisi said:


> *I saw my endo last year and when my results came back, it showed I was a long way off starting recovery. We spoke about my Pct etc and he actually laughed when I said I ran Proviron in the Pct.(I used the ROHM PCT Caps) He basically said, it only masks the problem, keeping you supressed. Guys get horny and lots of wood so they think their recovered. In reality, as my bloods as proof I wasn't no where near. This was 6-7 weeks after my 4 week PCT had finished.*
> 
> I did however, not run my HCG as planned on cycle. I'm not 100% sure if it was the Proviron or HCG, but I doubt i'll be using Proviron in my PCT again.


I can see how proviron masks the problem, but does it really keep you suppressed at the doses in ROHM PCT caps? Everything I have read so far suggests not.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

chilisi said:


> I'm not 100% sure to be honest mate. I'd just rather not use it again, after his advice. His practice is set up for Bodybuilders, so he knows about such meds and isn't the usual Endo. Some guys see Endo's who haven't a clue about AAS, but this guy knows his stuff, so I trust his advice over my knowledge


This is the guy in wales, right? I know PScarb uses him and I've consistently seen him say that proviron isn't suppressive, so I'm a bit confused. Unfortunately I don't think there will be any clinical studies to confirm either way.


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## Development (Apr 13, 2011)

Great thread interesting reads


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

chilisi said:


> I'm not 100% sure to be honest mate. I'd just rather not use it again, after his advice. His practice is set up for Bodybuilders, so he knows about such meds and isn't the usual Endo. Some guys see Endo's who haven't a clue about AAS, but this guy knows his stuff, so I trust his advice over my knowledge





chilisi said:


> Yeah same guy. Maybe it's the action Proviron has when no other AAS are being run, ie PCT is where it can be supressive when no AAS/HCG are being used?.
> 
> I hold my hands up and say im not sure really. Only going on what I was advised and by my long recovery, which " could" have also been down to my lack of HCG on the actual cycle. Who knows.


Well, perhaps in the absence of gear, it just might hinder, but then again, I don't know for sure either.

The lack of HCG, I would bet on it hindering your recover.

Testicular function is the single biggest issue for recovery hands down.

I have a graph that suggests LH recovery with no intervention comes back pretty quickly.

Clomid can double LH output and increase FSH by up to 50% within 5 to 7 days @ 100mg ED, that is damn impressive.

Notice how slow the response of recovery is from the testicles?

LH spikes and the lag of the nuts is crazy.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

ba baracuss said:


> I can see how proviron masks the problem, but does it really keep you suppressed at the doses in ROHM PCT caps? Everything I have read so far suggests not.


lets put it this way- a normal male has a max of 7mg of test production/day, or lets call 50mg/week. 5-7% of that converts to DHT, and thats what actually gives you a hard on etc. so thats 2.5mg at 5% conversion, PER WEEK.... one proviron tab is 25mg... and you take that PER DAY.. of course everyone says how many boners they get on proviron etc... to put that anohter way, to convert to 25mg of DHT (liek a proviron tab) you would need 500mg of test... so... you can see that if your body detects 25mg of proviron.. it will NOT increase Test production much... or will it.. see to convert to that much DHT, oestrogen would need to be higher too.. but its not (as you're in PCT), so... your body does increase test production.. but not as much as it should... and recovery takes far longer.. proviron messes with the feedback between Oestrogen-test-DHT conversions..


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

hackskii said:


> Well, perhaps in the absence of gear, it just might hinder, but then again, I don't know for sure either.
> 
> The lack of HCG, I would bet on it hindering your recover.
> 
> ...


I like that graph, even though it only shows fast LH recovery after a single injection.

*It points out that LH levels can rise very quickly and this is still possible, but only by keeping the cycle short.*

*
*Anyway, on to my point about the initial question.

Keeping cycles less than 6wks will help immensely with lessening HPTA suppression and vastly improving recovery time. This is because you are not suppressing the GnRH signalling from the hypothalmus. Although LH production stops fairly quickly at the pituitary the hypothalmus will still keep sending the signals for LH and FSH for a few weeks longer, it is only once you have suppresseed the signalling that recovery becomes much more prolonged.

In a nutshell. Do short cycles, use non aromatising compounds or use and AI, and always use HCG.


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## KINGKONG24 (Mar 27, 2009)

wicked thread


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Well, perhaps in the absence of gear, it just might hinder, but then again, I don't know for sure either.
> 
> The lack of HCG, I would bet on it hindering your recover.
> 
> ...


Very interesting graph, the research i have done was saying exactly this... that the LH levels can elevate very quickly, but the test levels lag way behind as the testes are not able to respond to it optimally


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## garethmcl (Feb 8, 2010)

Ohh I'm on 500 test a week with 1mg ai elite pharma eod and proviron 25mg ed and and 500iu x2 week hcg and I feel like ****e lacking libido, softys the odd time, growth isn't that good this time either. Feeling seriously anxious now could be a bad mix I'll drop the proviron?


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

garethmcl said:


> Ohh I'm on 500 test a week with 1mg ai elite pharma eod and proviron 25mg ed and and 500iu x2 week hcg and I feel like ****e lacking libido, softys the odd time, growth isn't that good this time either. Feeling seriously anxious now could be a bad mix I'll drop the proviron?


If anything Proviron should increase libido and make the test slightly more available by freeing it up so i can't see it being that, how many cycles have you done? It may of just finally caught up with you


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## garethmcl (Feb 8, 2010)

This 3rd mate


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

garethmcl said:


> Ohh I'm on 500 test a week with 1mg ai elite pharma eod and proviron 25mg ed and and 500iu x2 week hcg and I feel like ****e lacking libido, softys the odd time, growth isn't that good this time either. Feeling seriously anxious now could be a bad mix I'll drop the proviron?


It is the AI.

I would drop the AI myself and see where you go, but you will probably have to taper that some.

It looks like you drove estrogen too low.

Estrogen is needed for libido, for gains, for mood, among other things.


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## garethmcl (Feb 8, 2010)

Felt gyno itchy nips hackskii mate so had to I'll lower the dose? Did feel this even before the ai which I just started a week ago for the gyno.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

garethmcl said:


> Felt gyno itchy nips hackskii mate so had to I'll lower the dose? Did feel this even before the ai which I just started a week ago for the gyno.


Oh, so you are kind of stuck where you are at.

I am pretty sure it is low estrogen that is causing your erection issues, pretty common side of lowering estrogen too low.


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## garethmcl (Feb 8, 2010)

Ok I'll drop the ai it's been a week now, any other symptoms from low estrogen I could confirm?

Thanks


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

hackskii said:


> It is the AI.
> 
> I would drop the AI myself and see where you go, but you will probably have to taper that some.
> 
> ...


Hackskii it looks like i need your help, when i'm on cycle i've always used quite a lot of AI's / Anti E's... recently more the AI's instead but i am very prone to water retention, even on low carbs... also i want to keep gyno at bay, i have here Letro / Adex / Clomid / Nolva, i was using Adex but have tried a few weeks on just Letro, what would you recommend? I'm on about 1g a week of gear


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## Zorrin (Sep 24, 2010)

This is the best thread on PCT and shutdown that I've ever read.

I'm from a scientific background (I was a chemist in the nuclear industry), and I always get the feeling that PCT isn't really a proper science yet. The things that I've read on UK Muscle in particular are probably the closest to the scientific truth that we have at the moment (if this was Elitefitness, the moderators would be telling us to use "N2Guard" and "HCGenerate").

On the first page of this thread, Hackski makes the very good point that the HPTA is 200 times more sensitive to estrogen than to testosterone (I read once that it was many thousands of times). So when you think about it, it would seem that *your HPTA is there to keep your estrogen levels at a roughly constant level. Your testosterone level, it's not really that ars*d about.*

I was a bit shocked when I first thought about this properly. Surely, in men, it should all be about "our" hormone, sexy muscle-building testosterone? After that, Ausbuilt's recommendation of using clomid on-cycle to prevent shutdown started to make sense and appeal to me. Clomid doesn't prevent estrogen, but it's good at "hiding" it from our pituitary gland (remember, its the pituitary that decides when to brew up a new batch of test in our balls.

On the subject of DHEA, I was very interested in this when I was in my 20s, so I bought 100g of pure DHEA and started supplementing myself, hoping it would act like a prohormone. Unfortunately, it didn't work, my sex drive went down, and I got a bit watery (I've never caught a cold when I've been using it though, it seems very good for your immune system).

In theory, DHEA is a couple of metabolic steps away from testosterone, but in practice, its a bit like the prohormone 4-AD (which is gyno in a bottle). Mrs Zorrin swears by it, though. She's in her mid-40s, and DHEA is a bit more like HRT for women than it is for men. She doesn't go as mental before her period, and she says it makes her hair and skin go nice. I made her some capsules containing DHEA, MSM and grapeseed extract which she swears by.

I've used HCG a couple of times (Pregnyl - a cheapo brand). The first time, I used 500iu a week. It helped, but didn't totally keep the boys in the barracks. On my last cycle, I used 1000iu a week, and it kept them nice and round and toasty. In fact, my wife kept telling me off for having my hand in my pants, cradling them. Having nice chunky nads on a cycle is a good good feeling, I don't mind telling you. Your HPTA may take a while to wake up after your cycle, but al least you don't need to literally grow a new pair.

When you think about it, having the decisions about your hormone levels made away from your balls, in your hypothalmus, makes sense.

I think of my balls as a brewery in Burton-on-Trent, and testosterone as the beer it makes. They've been pickled in test since I was 13, and the chief brewer has been drunk ever since. He hasn't got a clue whether my body needs more beer, he's drunk and his overalls stink of Tetleys. The decisions are made at the brewery's head office in London (my pituitary gland, stuck on my hypothalmus).

If more beer is needed, head office makes a phone call to Burton-on-Trent saying "brew another vat" (well, in actual fact, it squirts some Lutenising hormone into your bloodstream, which your balls detect).

I like to think of HCG as being a guy hiding round the corner from the brewery with a mobile phone, pretending to be head office.

I usually do 6 week (42 day) cycles, with a fast-acting injectible, and an oral steroid. My last injection is on day 40, my last pill on day 42, and I start PCT on day 43. I do up to 4 a year.

For my next one, I'm thinking of just doing 6 weeks of test prop, and CLOMID, without HCG. I want to find out for myself if Ausbuilt's theory works for me, and I avoid shutdown and that demoralising shrinkage at the back of my bollacks.

For your adrenal system, I feel like a bit of an expert on this. My thai wife introduced me to crystal meth, and in the past, I've spent up to a week without food and sleep. Nothing on this earth knackers your adrenal system like it. Afterwards, you go through three stages of comedown:-

1. A day after you stop using it, you have no serotonin, but loads of dopamine and adrenaline. This is "danger day", you hear voices and you're totally mad.

2. Next, you get a little bit of serotonin, no dopamine, but still lots of adrenaline. You shag like an animal, then fall asleep.

3. Finally, you feel sleepy for days, because you have no adrenaline. Because you probably haven't been eating anything but icecream, you don't have any adrenaline precurors

I've found that eating 5-hydroxy tryptophan (for serotonin) and tyrosine (for dopamine and adrenaline), your comedown is shortened, and sometimes even quite enjoyable. Even better, DRINK A WHEY PROTEIN SHAKE. It has grams of these amino acids. But the best ever combo I found was whey protein, turinabol, and a little bit of weight training. Hardly any comedown!

I've read that dianabol and turinabol increase your dopamine levels by some unknown mechanism, so if your adrenal system is shot, or you're on a comedown from any speedy-type drug (coke, MDMA, speed), give this a try:-

Just as you're coming down, the last thing you feel like is food. Get one of those "nutriment" drinks in a can, empty it into a shaker, add 40g of whey, milk and a couple of ice cubes, then use it to knock back a tbol and a vitamin B tablet. You'll be right as rain in no time, because you'll have the amino acids and vitamin B6 and B12 (which are needed to convert them to your neurotransmitters, and make you human again). But somehow, tbol or dbol is the magic ingredient.

I know, I'm 44, and a total disgrace.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

garethmcl said:


> Ok I'll drop the ai it's been a week now, any other symptoms from low estrogen I could confirm?
> 
> Thanks


Mood, loss of libido, stiff joints, difficulty in keeping or maintaining an erection.



Raptor said:


> Hackskii it looks like i need your help, when i'm on cycle i've always used quite a lot of AI's / Anti E's... recently more the AI's instead but i am very prone to water retention, even on low carbs... also i want to keep gyno at bay, i have here Letro / Adex / Clomid / Nolva, i was using Adex but have tried a few weeks on just Letro, what would you recommend? I'm on about 1g a week of gear


Well, some masteron with your cycles would not be a bad idea, and low dose AI.

But, nolva would be ok for the gyno.

I think most guys get water retention with testosterone, at least at the end of the cycle anyway, they used to call me moon face.. :lol:


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## buddha (Sep 13, 2010)

Mars said:


> I like that graph, even though it only shows fast LH recovery after a single injection.
> 
> *It points out that LH levels can rise very quickly and this is still possible, but only by keeping the cycle short.*
> 
> ...


Why are you mentioning 6 weeks instead of 4 or 8? Where does this lenght come from? Is the Gnrh stopping after 6 weeks? Is 6 weeks non-dose depending? So that doing 2gr test or 250mg for 6 weeks would be the same?


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Well, some masteron with your cycles would not be a bad idea, and low dose AI.
> 
> But, nolva would be ok for the gyno.
> 
> I think most guys get water retention with testosterone, at least at the end of the cycle anyway, they used to call me moon face.. :lol:


Funnily enough i've just added Mast to my cycle and i'm now running Test Prop / Tren Ace / Mast Prop, do you think Arimidex would be the best option to use with it? And how often a week would you suggest, thanks


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

buddha said:


> Why are you mentioning 6 weeks instead of 4 or 8? Where does this lenght come from? Is the Gnrh stopping after 6 weeks? Is 6 weeks non-dose depending? So that doing 2gr test or 250mg for 6 weeks would be the same?


I'd recommend fast acting meds like in the post above what i mentioned i'm on if you are going to do short cycles. As an example, if you were to shoot 2 grams of Test E every week for 6 weeks it wouldn't kick in properly (IMO) until about week 3-4 and then when you finish week 6 it will still be in your system up to 4 weeks after. Short acting esters clear in about a week(ish) as the 1/2 life is a couple of days


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## garethmcl (Feb 8, 2010)

Hackskii I'm starting to think my aas is fake and using hcg alone has caused me to feel like this. Could a fake aas and using just hcg cause this as my Nat test is ok but I'm throwing in hcg which can cause gyno estrogen increase.

What does hcg alone do to the hpta?


----------



## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok, here's one for the experts.... does taking a Nolvadex at the same time as a HCG injection stop / help stop the de-sensitizing of HCG's effects? I can't find the damn article but many over on the US boards take 20mg at the point of the HCG injection and from what i remember it has some great reasoning behind it


----------



## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Zorrin said:


> This is the best thread on PCT and shutdown that I've ever read.
> 
> I'm from a scientific background (I was a chemist in the nuclear industry), and I always get the feeling that PCT isn't really a proper science yet. The things that I've read on UK Muscle in particular are probably the closest to the scientific truth that we have at the moment (if this was Elitefitness, the moderators would be telling us to use "N2Guard" and "HCGenerate").
> 
> ...


*But it isn't*. it's the hypothalmus that controls this, you can block estrogen receptors at the pituitary all you like with clomid and it won't make a damn bit of difference if the hypothalmus is suppressed and not sending GnRH signalling to the pituitary to actually produce LH and FSH.


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## Superhorse (May 29, 2011)

Raptor said:


> Ok, here's one for the experts.... does taking a Nolvadex at the same time as a HCG injection stop / help stop the de-sensitizing of HCG's effects? I can't find the damn article but many over on the US boards take 20mg at the point of the HCG injection and from what i remember it has some great reasoning behind it


I would personally use an AI probs but I guess they do it to control the eostrogen flush.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Superhorse said:


> I would personally use an AI probs but I guess they do it to control the eostrogen flush.


Yeah it's not just about that, sure when you use HCG the raise in natty test can cause oestrogen fluctuations.. but i've read in a few areas that specifically taking a Nolvadex with each HCG injection decreases HCG desensitization


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Zorrin said:


> Clomid doesn't prevent estrogen, but it's good at "hiding" it from our pituitary gland (remember, its the pituitary that decides when to brew up a new batch of test in our balls.


Actually Clomid acts as a mild estrogen to the pituitary where as nolva does not.

Some think this is called estrogen priming, and feel this is the reason why clomid works better than nolva.

So, as you can see, some things look like they make sense, but actually don't.

Clomid works by making the pituitary more sensitive to GnRH, that is where the LH spike comes from.



Zorrin said:


> On the subject of DHEA, I was very interested in this when I was in my 20s, so I bought 100g of pure DHEA and started supplementing myself, hoping it would act like a prohormone. Unfortunately, it didn't work, my sex drive went down, and I got a bit watery (I've never caught a cold when I've been using it though, it seems very good for your immune system).
> 
> In theory, DHEA is a couple of metabolic steps away from testosterone, but in practice, its a bit like the prohormone 4-AD (which is gyno in a bottle). Mrs Zorrin swears by it, though. She's in her mid-40s, and DHEA is a bit more like HRT for women than it is for men. She doesn't go as mental before her period, and she says it makes her hair and skin go nice. I made her some capsules containing DHEA, MSM and grapeseed extract which she swears by.


DHEA can elevate estrogen in men, and testosterone in women, this is why you got watery, loss of libido, etc, and your wife felt better.

I take DHEA but never more than 20mg ED, and even less.

This is one hormone that does not go down when supplementing it, that is why it is not necessary to maga dose.

I remember taking 200mg ED of DHEA and got testicular atrophy, I got some blood work and my numbers were way off the chart, yet Testosterone was low.



Zorrin said:


> For your adrenal system, I feel like a bit of an expert on this. My thai wife introduced me to crystal meth, and in the past, I've spent up to a week without food and sleep. Nothing on this earth knackers your adrenal system like it. Afterwards, you go through three stages of comedown:-
> 
> 1. A day after you stop using it, you have no serotonin, but loads of dopamine and adrenaline. This is "danger day", you hear voices and you're totally mad.
> 
> ...


Nice insight on the adrenal function with drugs.

Mucuna-Pruriens (L-DOPA) extract would not be a bad idea if one was down, as 15% L- DOPA - l dopa converts to natural dopamine.



Raptor said:


> Ok, here's one for the experts.... does taking a Nolvadex at the same time as a HCG injection stop / help stop the de-sensitizing of HCG's effects? I can't find the damn article but many over on the US boards take 20mg at the point of the HCG injection and from what i remember it has some great reasoning behind it


Absolutely it does, and there is a study that confirms this.



Raptor said:


> Yeah it's not just about that, sure when you use HCG the raise in natty test can cause oestrogen fluctuations.. but i've read in a few areas that specifically taking a Nolvadex with each HCG injection decreases HCG desensitization


I don't know if it decreases it or just protects it.

It is assumed it is the intra-testicular aromatase that causes the desensitization of HCG in the testicles.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

hackskii said:


> Absolutely it does, and there is a study that confirms this.
> 
> I don't know if it decreases it or just protects it.
> 
> It is assumed it is the intra-testicular aromatase that causes the desensitization of HCG in the testicles.


I've had 3 x 1500iu HCG jabs this week as i've not used in a long time, i'll be doing the same next week and then dropping down to 1000iu pw


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

hackskii said:


> DHEA can elevate estrogen in men, and testosterone in women, this is why you got watery, loss of libido, etc, and your wife felt better.
> 
> I take DHEA but never more than 20mg ED, and even less.
> 
> ...


I ran some for a couple of weeks at 50mg but ran half a tab of aromasin with it. Can't say I noticed much, maybe a little spike in libido to begin with but not a lot.

EDIT - this was for adrenal issues not HPTA.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, it can potentially help as DHEA is a precursor to other sex steroids.

Life extension folks use this as well.

They wanted my wife on 200mg ED of pharma DHEA, she has lupus.


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## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Yeah the guff on the bottle/website was talking about it for elderly people in particular. I was trying it for adrenal fatigue, which may or may not be linked to low libido, since I have both. Also tried some vit d at the same time and for a few days libido was good but soon tailed off again. Only ran a tab a day of vit d which was 2000iu I think. Found it hard to find the correct dose for that.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Well, I am using 5000iu D ED and my face gets pretty oily on that.

I got the ol buy one get one free so I bought two bottles.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Just to update guys, i blasted 1500iu HCG 3x last week and have noticed some good effects already, plan to do the same again this week and then drop down to a lower maintenance dose


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## baggsy1436114680 (Jan 23, 2010)

Raptor said:


> Just to update guys, i blasted 1500iu HCG 3x last week and have noticed some good effects already, plan to do the same again this week and then drop down to a lower maintenance dose


Are you running any nolva with the hcg?


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

baggsy said:


> Are you running any nolva with the hcg?


Just one tab with each jab mate, my libedo was pretty high anyway but last few days it's been a bit crazy... i'm at home alone today and have already had 2 [email protected] and need another too, i've just repped you a site i was looking at lol


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok after 4 x 1500iu HCG blasts i've noticed an improvement in natural hormones, i never felt shut down as such as i'm still on cycle. But after blasting some HCG i have been waking up early with raging hardons feeling hormonal as fcuk with all sorts of sexual stuff going through my head, this stopped after week 6 on my current cycle but is coming back now


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

quality thread raptor , reckon this could do with a tidy up and made a sticky  to few pct/ancillary threads on here .

im currently shutdown didnt run hcg been on for long time with only a several week break , the need to be better at sport is bigger than the need for big testicles however im aware being shutdown to long carries dangers ..

is there any point in me starting hcg @ 1000iu ew then when im ready to come off do hacks power pct ?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ewen said:


> quality thread raptor , reckon this could do with a tidy up and made a sticky  to few pct/ancillary threads on here .
> 
> im currently shutdown didnt run hcg been on for long time with only a several week break , the need to be better at sport is bigger than the need for big testicles however im aware being shutdown to long carries dangers ..
> 
> is there any point in me starting hcg @ 1000iu ew then when im ready to come off do hacks power pct ?


Only problem with that low dose at 1000iu a week is the testicles are not very sensitive, so technically you would need to have a bit more stimulation to force the nuts to play ball.

I think over a long period of time it may work, or get semi crazy and boost them along with bigger doses for a couple of weeks.

I do like the idea of HMG in the mix, and even DHEA for those guys on a long time.

I just saw at my chiropractors office some bio-identical DHEA and testosterone cream, also she has HGH cream, and progesterone cream.

Never saw HGH cream before.

I asked her how she could sell that, she said it was bio-identical.

I thought that was scrip only?

I informed her that adding exogenous testosterone stops endogenous production, and her question was "even if it is bio-identical?":lol:

I informed her yes testicular atrophy could happen.

That would just force all those idiots self medicating back to her for refills that happen to be pretty expensive I thought, at about a buck a day.

HGH cream?

I swear, I am totally thinking of buying my wife the test cream, perhaps she then might want to have some sex.

Hopefully with me. :lol:


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## rectus (Jan 18, 2012)

hahaha

HGH cream! How exciting (if it's cheaper, otherwise it can go fu*k off)


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## threadows (Feb 15, 2012)

What a quality read this thread is lads, just read it front to back and am now going to do the same so the info sticks in my head. Some of u lads certainly know ur shizzle!!


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## Dave3g (Apr 14, 2011)

Good read


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## MRSTRONG (Apr 18, 2009)

hackskii said:


> Only problem with that low dose at 1000iu a week is the testicles are not very sensitive, so technically you would need to have a bit more stimulation to force the nuts to play ball.
> 
> I think over a long period of time it may work, or get semi crazy and boost them along with bigger doses for a couple of weeks.
> 
> ...


im pretty sure harley street docs (private healthcare in uk) can give hgh shots and creams for cash i do also remember some cream with hgh in think oil of ulay perhaps idk .

anyway buy some female viagra and slip her some or use GHB :lol:


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

ewen said:


> im pretty sure harley street docs (private healthcare in uk) can give hgh shots and creams for cash i do also remember some cream with hgh in think oil of ulay perhaps idk .
> 
> anyway buy some female viagra and slip her some or use GHB :lol:


Well, being turned down for so long, I dont even ask anymore.

Crazy being on the SARM thinking about sex alot of the time, just kills it.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Ok i tried a week of HCG blast and had good effects but now a couple of weeks later the work seems to be undone, i want to blast some HCG properly i have the proper brand Pregnyl and wondering what type of dose you can run without fcuking up LH reception? I'm thinking of running 1500iu for about 6 days each day, one today and then mon-fri next week?


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## Mars (Aug 25, 2007)

Raptor said:


> Ok i tried a week of HCG blast and had good effects but now a couple of weeks later the work seems to be undone, i want to blast some HCG properly i have the proper brand Pregnyl and wondering what type of dose you can run without fcuking up LH reception? I'm thinking of running *1500iu for about 6 days each day, one today and then mon-fri next week?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Why? Have you not read my sticky? the bi-phasic properties of HCG are explained in there and your protocol is a waste of HCG, if you want to blast it then 5000iu once weekly for 4wks. Better still, use it on cycle in future.


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Mars said:


> Why? Have you not read my sticky? the bi-phasic properties of HCG are explained in there and your protocol is a waste of HCG, if you want to blast it then 5000iu once weekly for 4wks. Better still, use it on cycle in future.


I'll read the sticky now, i hadn't seen it, but i was under the assumption that the 1/2 life was just a couple of days?


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

BUMP - There was a guy who was gonna try 2500iu HCG eod for 45 days, he was about 8 days in and was getting super recovery from his cycle, it's been 45 days now... he did have a thread but i can't find it, does anyone know what happened?


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## baggsy1436114680 (Jan 23, 2010)

how should you blast hcg then if you have been on for a long time or been blasting and cruising. 2,500iu eod for 16 days or 5,000iu one shot each week for 4 weeks? Im sure there is stickies for both or have been which is better? thanks


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

baggsy said:


> how should you blast hcg then if you have been on for a long time or been blasting and cruising. 2,500iu eod for 16 days or 5,000iu one shot each week for 4 weeks? Im sure there is stickies for both or have been which is better? thanks


I couldn't advise any 100% correct info on this, however there are stickies that have good solid info

Personally i'll be using much higher doses than most recommend, but that's just my preference


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## Raptor (Feb 16, 2010)

Raptor said:


> BUMP - There was a guy who was gonna try 2500iu HCG eod for 45 days, he was about 8 days in and was getting super recovery from his cycle, it's been 45 days now... he did have a thread but i can't find it, does anyone know what happened?


Anyone know about this? ^^^


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## Big_bear (Apr 1, 2011)

I wouls love to know how to blast and cruise whilst using HCG. Am crusing on 200mg test p/w and taking a 3 week break from hcg before I start 1000iu p/w again for 10 weeks and repeat. Is this the right thing to do?


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