# steroids with a high bodyfat%



## jamiedilk (Jul 6, 2010)

i been doing some research and came across a site where they slated a guy for being 21% bf and doing a cycle !!! they said they wouldnt even consider doing a cycle until u get to atleast 12% is this truth and if yes why?/? or is it a load of bull


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## Lurgilurg (Aug 15, 2010)

Not sure about this as I have never used or know much about them. But there is a guy in my gym Huge arms and shoulders with a gut hanging out of his t-shirt!. So I can see why it be right to drop bf % first


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

jamiedilk said:


> i been doing some research and came across a site where they slated a guy for being 21% bf and doing a cycle !!! they said they wouldnt even consider doing a cycle until u get to atleast 12% is this truth and if yes why?/? or is it a load of bull


well mate im over that and im on a cycle.. even in the 14 days i have been on test my metabolism has increased i am getting leaner by the day and continuing to add muscle .. so i say IMO i will finish this cycle leaner , stronger and with a lot more muscle than i started .....


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## Irish Beast (Jun 16, 2009)

Lurgilurg said:


> Not sure about this as I have never used or know much about them. But there is a guy in my gym Huge arms and shoulders with a gut hanging out of his t-shirt!. So I can see why it be right to drop bf % first


Thats generally what I look like after a decent cycle!

I have always had high BF. Still look good on cycles but the gains aren't as visible


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2011)

Ignore the BF% buddy, go by the Mirror!

If your BF% increases when on cycle then your not eating the right snap IMO.

I'm sure if you do a search here and there 99% of people report BF loss from any cycle, why.... Because your able to train harder


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## jamiedilk (Jul 6, 2010)

thats what i thought i just couldnt beleive how they went to work on this guy cos he was 21% i mean talk about taking the pi$$



flinty90 said:


> well mate im over that and im on a cycle.. even in the 14 days i have been on test my metabolism has increased i am getting leaner by the day and continuing to add muscle .. so i say IMO i will finish this cycle leaner , stronger and with a lot more muscle than i started .....


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## jamiedilk (Jul 6, 2010)

yeah i know what ur saying !!



R0B said:


> Ignore the BF% buddy, go by the Mirror!
> 
> If your BF% increases when on cycle then your not eating the right snap IMO.
> 
> I'm sure if you do a search here and there 99% of people report BF loss from any cycle, why.... Because your able to train harder


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Thats like saying you have to have 16 inch arms or have to be able to bench 120kg, or be at least 16 stone before taking gear.

Means fck all, all goal dependant

Like me for example I have no intention of having low BF levels or visable abs, but I train for strongman and lift very heavy weights all week.

Does this mean I shouldnt do gear as my bf is above 12 %, load of crap IMO


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## luther1 (Jul 31, 2011)

Most American sites do slaughter people if they are under 25 or over 15%bf and want to cycle.


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## BigBarnBoy (May 7, 2011)

luther1 said:


> Most American sites do slaughter people if they are under 25 or over 15%bf and want to cycle.


Thats cos they are nutters..

IMO most people think plenty before doing there 1st cycle and if theyre ready to go and feel itl benefit them then they should go for it..fcuk what other people think..within reason of course. Theres always the exception who REALLY isnt ready..


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## 44carl44 (Apr 24, 2013)

you find most of the guys on american fourms can be dicks how can they say dont bo a cycle with high bf have you seen alot of the strong men


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## baggsy1436114680 (Jan 23, 2010)

is the general public on average who train strongmen or gym guys who want to look good, is the latter so at 20% bf i kind of agree steroids should not be used well maybe for cutting but that can easily be done naturally, no way should you be bulking on gear at 20% as you will just look like a fat cvnt,


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

That 5hit comes from Yankee sites, I used to use them myself before this place, they are full of 5hit. Do u think powerlifter/strongmen and 5hitloads of off season BBers are all 12% bf, don't fvckin think so. Bellends


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Bashman said:


> I think they are going by the concept that the more body fat you have the higher amortization of testosterone to estrogen


Which can be easily controlled


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Most mass monster pro bodybuilder are well over 15% bf all through off season


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

baggsy said:


> is the general public on average who train strongmen or gym guys who want to look good, is the latter so at 20% bf i kind of agree steroids should not be used well maybe for cutting but that can easily be done naturally, no way should you be bulking on gear at 20% as you will just look like a fat cvnt,


That what I mean by goal dependent

Alot of competitors use the off season to smash high cals and break through barriers,and get way over 15% bf, so do you think they shouldnt use gear??

I know lots of guys that go over 15 % bf and trust me they still look like powerful,strong built tanks, not like fat sh!ts


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

I probably will never be 12 % lol, I've got a mrs, don't need abs to get sex


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

Does anyone know what impact having higher bf% has on oestrogen? Does the extra aromatase enzymes have a tangible effect on the amount of oestrogen and so need more AI (for those running aromatisable stuff)?

Or is it such a minor difference it's nothing to worry about


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## Barbell mafia (Jan 28, 2011)

even with a high bodyfat % it would'nt matter if u were on the right cutting gear like tren and masteron , retarded yanks!


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## m118 (Feb 4, 2011)

^ thanks


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## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

For me I consider gear to be more important while cutting to preserve muscle, but they think you have to be a certain bf% to even think about gear lol, bunch of morons!


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## eezy1 (Dec 14, 2010)

those yanks got no biz talking about high BF percentages


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## Tasty (Aug 28, 2007)

I think everyone should do steroids, they're fun


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Tasty said:


> I think everyone should do steroids, they're fun


Lol


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## Kennyken (Jun 20, 2011)

I've always wondered this as I'm about 25% bf.

People have always told me to lose fat before a cycle or use anavar instead of tbol !


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Kennyken said:


> I've always wondered this as I'm about 25% bf.
> 
> People have always told me to lose fat before a cycle or use anavar instead of tbol !


fcuk them mate... even if i was 50 % bf i would still take gear if i thought it would help my goals .....

so as im only 49% bf i will get it in pmsl


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## jamiedilk (Jul 6, 2010)

flinty is right mate if u wanna do gear then do it choose the right gear for ur goals and smash it up



Kennyken said:


> I've always wondered this as I'm about 25% bf.
> 
> People have always told me to lose fat before a cycle or use anavar instead of tbol !


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Is this guy 12%


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## Kennyken (Jun 20, 2011)

jamiedilk said:


> flinty is right mate if u wanna do gear then do it choose the right gear for ur goals and smash it up


I'd love to get massive and not care about too much about abs/fat lol


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Fatstuff said:


> Is this guy 12%


about 13.5 mate :whistling:


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Kennyken said:


> I'd love to get massive and not care about too much about abs/fat lol


id love to live in your mind for a day , and visit all the wonderful places you visit mate pmsl !!!!

you could do whatever you wanted if you made your fcukin mind up and stuck to something (anything) XX


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## Kennyken (Jun 20, 2011)

flinty90 said:


> about 13.5 mate :whistling:


Fluck me that geezers thighs are bigger then bed!


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2011)

Kennyken said:


> I'd love to get massive and not care about too much about abs/fat lol


Just crack on with it :lol:

About time those tins went off your AVI


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## Kennyken (Jun 20, 2011)

flinty90 said:


> id love to live in your mind for a day , and visit all the wonderful places you visit mate pmsl !!!!
> 
> you could do whatever you wanted if you made your fcukin mind up and stuck to something (anything) XX


Oh my old friend flinty. I can see your reasoning for saying that. But I'm just researching my options to get what I want and if there is a better way

Or should I just do it and learn like that ??


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## synthasize (Aug 15, 2009)

luther1 said:


> Most American sites do slaughter people if they are under 25 or over 15%bf and want to cycle.


its funny because they do this then they suggest 1g+ test plus other anabolics for first cycles


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Kennyken said:


> Oh my old friend flinty. I can see your reasoning for saying that. But I'm just researching my options to get what I want and if there is a better way
> 
> Or should I just do it and learn like that ??


now i would believe that more if you wanted to ask advice about say 2 steroids ..

but your questions are nromally polar opposites.. you either need to lose weight or gain weight.. not both... you either want to gain strength or gain size,

you need to just get a goal , and then gear everything towards that goal.. even if your goal changes in next 3 months achieve the goal you set yourself now .. then go and achieve something else X


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

kennyken, what is ur goals (in life and the gym) do u want to be strong? do u want to be big and intimidating? do u want pussy? do u want to compete? do u want general fitness and well being? each one will lead u up a different path. At least pick one of them, dont try and be big and ripped straight away as its the hardest thing in the world to do.


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## atlant1s (Feb 15, 2011)

So, just to jump in here! Hello guys btw 

Would yous reccomend me to do a cycle? I'd guess my bf is around 20%, maybe 19 on a good day, and im about 190lbs based on 5.11''

Or would that be absolutely far-fetched?


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## luther1 (Jul 31, 2011)

If you asked that question on an American site they would tell you to sort you're diet out. Which is probably correct.


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## atlant1s (Feb 15, 2011)

Empire Boy said:


> if it is a well though out cycle, you have diet and training in place, and you are 100% commited, fooking bash in that gear and get to work! I started a cycle of aas @ 24% in April 2011, I'm 11% currently...I'd say it worked out ok, so maybe now the yank boards and muscletalk.co.uk will allow me to cycle, lol.


hehe! as much as i would love to do as you say, im afraid my diet and training needs perfected first. Did your bf go from 24-11% cus of the cycle?


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## Rick89 (Feb 27, 2009)

Im probably over 20% i would say, I use gear to achieve my goals which have nothing to do with BF levels.

Most the big boys off stage in off season go over 15%BF

Rugby players,strongmen,powerlifters alot of them go over 15%bf, they still use for their goals why not??


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## WallsOfJericho (Apr 4, 2009)

they say this because the higher your bodyfat the more test armomatises to estrogen, and you dont know how your body reacts to high estorgen, the lower your bodyfat before you start, the estrogen sides would be more manageble, the higher your bodyfat the higher your chances of developing gyno, and you have lower chance of being able to control it as easily, but yeah its just advise, good advise, but not absolutely nessesary if you want to chance it. im sitting at 16.5% and im sick ofcutting and wanna get my first cycle underway, but as i frequent american forums most, ive got it in my head i need to cut to 12%


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

WallsOfJericho said:


> they say this because the higher your bodyfat the more test armomatises to estrogen, and you dont know how your body reacts to high estorgen, the lower your bodyfat before you start, the estrogen sides would be more manageble, the higher your bodyfat the higher your chances of developing gyno, and you have lower chance of being able to control it as easily, but yeah its just advise, good advise, but not absolutely nessesary if you want to chance it. im sitting at 16.5% and im sick ofcutting and wanna get my first cycle underway, but as i frequent american forums most, ive got it in my head i need to cut to 12%


Mate, if u have done enough research u can battle most side effects. My advice to you - delete your accounts from the us websites and stick on here - less holier than thou fakers to tell u to eat perfect train perfect, be perfect bodyfat. I guarantee you that 80% of the know alls on these us sites don't practice what they preach.


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## MattGriff (Aug 21, 2012)

You shouldn't really eat a burger that is two burgers with cheese in the middle using two pizzas for buns but tha doesn't stop the Americans


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> But we still gotta deal with your holier though-ness as well...


holier than thou - but whatever 

lol tbf mate, i couldnt be holier than thou, i drink, i eat cack when 'bulking'(not loads of it mind u), i take steroids with high bf%, i always miss out leg sessions, dont do cardio, i even dabble in the odd illegal narcotic now and again. Not proud of myself but i will continue to constantly better myself and by the time im 30 ill hopefully be in a much better place.


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> Yeah, but it plays both ways, your coming across a wee bit biased Fatstuff, and not entirely fair...not that I think the american boards are all that great, but they aren't as bad as this thread makes them out to be....there are some good ones, some bad one...I think Muscletalk, in terms of attitude and holier than though-ness, "I know better than you attitude" type attitude, is far worse than any canadian or american board I've seen...I have german back ground, so I also cruise the german boards, and if you want to talk about holier than though attitude, jaysus christ there are some real d1ck heads...but the yanks ain't all that bad...some are bad, some are good...of course nothing is as good as UK-M for decent people telling it like it is...but, like Muscletalk, there are some real up your ar5e boards here too...thats all I'm saying...


fair enough, im more on about the likes of Bodybuilding.com elitefitness t nation - stuff like that, there are a few no nonsense boards in us aswell tbf so i am being a bit biased but i picked up some right stupid stuff from them boards when i first started out


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> elitefitness is CRAP, I agree, so is bodybuilding.com, anabolicminds is ok, som decent boys on there that like to banter...The thing I've always found weird about america, and that is you have this portion of the population that are in uber-shape a5se holes, then you have uber-fat ar5e holes, there are not many in the middle of the road...it is a land of extremes...but I never even bothered with signing up to an american board...I did muscletalk for first, and was immediately told off that i was too fat to start a cycle at 24%, I was an idiot, I need to do this, that, from this 'party boy' moderator, then all his little minions joined in, and I got battered...it was terrible. Then I joined here, and immediately was just told what to do, what not to do, I did not get a lecture about having to perfect, like I did at muscletalk...I still hate even looking at that forum...


My point exactly mate, this forum is king.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

jamiedilk said:


> i been doing some research and came across a site where they slated a guy for being 21% bf and doing a cycle !!! they said they wouldnt even consider doing a cycle until u get to atleast 12% is this truth and if yes why?/? or is it a load of bull


thats rubbish.. steroids are VERY useful when you're fat.. they increase, Lean Body Mass so you get leaner easier..

AND... they retain muscle when on a diet..

If you're over 15% BF.. (some would say 12%) you're welcome to use steroids- but use them to help you cut..

if you're over 15% you're just plain fat (dont flame me, I was 24% last year.. so I know of what i speak) in fact when I dieted to 14% I realised.. I was still fat.... REMEMBER you can't flex fat...

I"m not saying everyone should be a think, shredded mens health cover guy.. quite the opposite.. but if You're over 12% you're not bulking up.. you're rationalising a lack of discipline and a desire to eat as much as you want.. been guilty of that myself..

OK maybe I sound like a reformed smoker, but all i can say is...there is no excuse being over 12%- if you are it means you are depositing more fat than muscle in your bulking plan..


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## jamiedilk (Jul 6, 2010)

cool mate excellent progress what did u do mate cycle wise and did u do alot of cardio ???

im planning a test tren cycle with lots of cardio and awesome diet



Empire Boy said:


> if it is a well though out cycle, you have diet and training in place, and you are 100% commited, fooking bash in that gear and get to work! I started a cycle of aas @ 24% in April 2011, I'm 11% currently...I'd say it worked out ok, so maybe now the yank boards and muscletalk.co.uk will allow me to cycle, lol.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> elitefitness is CRAP, I agree, so is bodybuilding.com, anabolicminds is ok, som decent boys on there that like to banter...The thing I've always found weird about america, and that is you have this portion of the population that are in uber-shape a5se holes, then you have uber-fat ar5e holes, there are not many in the middle of the road...it is a land of extremes...but I never even bothered with signing up to an american board...I did muscletalk for first, and was immediately told off that i was too fat to start a cycle at 24%, I was an idiot, I need to do this, that, from this 'party boy' moderator, then all his little minions joined in, and I got battered...it was terrible. Then I joined here, and immediately was just told what to do, what not to do, I did not get a lecture about having to perfect, like I did at muscletalk...I still hate even looking at that forum...


hell yeah..

the amount of misinformation on the USA forums is amazing.. very few honest people saying what they do and what results they got..

an easy example for me was DNP threads- all the people talking about melting away, and super increased body temperature, and eating diets with 50% carbs to combat DNP heat effects and maximise weight loss... it soon became apparant most had never used the stuff... becuase its actually hard to raise your core temp on it becuase of how much you sweat (so your core temp would only get dangerously high if you ran out of fluids to sweat-ie didnt drink any water); and if you eat 50% carbs.. you don't lose any weight at all.. low carb diets work best with DNP.. but you will never read that on a USA forum..

Dont even get me started on the crap they go on about when it comes to cycles...

I found a few good guys on professionalmuscle but, its a handful..


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

WallsOfJericho said:


> they say this because the higher your bodyfat the more test armomatises to estrogen, and you dont know how your body reacts to high estorgen, the lower your bodyfat before you start, the estrogen sides would be more manageble, the higher your bodyfat the higher your chances of developing gyno, and you have lower chance of being able to control it as easily, but yeah its just advise, good advise, but not absolutely nessesary if you want to chance it. im sitting at 16.5% and im sick ofcutting and wanna get my first cycle underway, but as i frequent american forums most, ive got it in my head i need to cut to 12%


'tis true about the gyno and oestrogen- kind of a catch 22, increased oestrogen increases BF..

but.. you can't cut effectively without AAS- in fact AAS are more important than AAS for bulking! WHY?

Well..... I could pack on as much muscle using 10iu 3x day of novorapid and 200mg/day DNP, than any cycle under 1g/week of AAS..

But.. if I diet.. and the same is true for everybody- if you restrict cals (must on a diet) then restrict carbs.. your body uses glycogenesis to convert amino acids (ie from your diet AND from your muscle) to make glucose for energy... BEFORE burning fat.. so you WILL lose muscle when you diet, BEFORE you lose any fat..

the ONLY way to stop this is AAS, as their primary function is to retain Nitrogen (ie the "N" from the "NH3" amine group that makes up an amino acid..) so you force your body to burn fat for energy and not muscle.. its impossible to do this naturally...


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Empire Boy said:


> heavyweight pl'ers and competitive strongmen are the only exception I can see to this rule...just something with big fat boys like Magnusson and Zavikas that lets them shift some amazing weight. The only lean, sub 10% strongman that has won of course is the Dom. But plenty of good lean ones, Felix, Ortmayer, but IMO Zavikas is the best of the best, and that man has never been under 20% in his life...Unless his belly is actually a mutation and is in fact pure pure muscle! But granted, most of the good strongmen fall in the 10-14% range. But I've never seen a lean heavy weight power-lifter...just in the 105kg or under, then you get some extremely lean and strong fookers for sure.


agree on the stongmen.. you do need to be in a calorie excess to be at your most anabolic and strongest.. BUT there is a range of useful fat against just more dead weight to move.. and I think even for strongmen.. 12-15% is ample..

As for rugby players.. to an extent if you're to lean, you get hurt a little to much.. a bit of padding helps..but once again, you lose speed/agility.. Jonah Lomu in his day was not over 14%...

As for power lifters and olympic lifters.. I think there are a lot who are a bit fat, but far to many are bloated form using cheque drops and test suspension to beat drug tests and still retaining a lot of water... mind you, water retention DOES add to strength.. (increased cellular turger pressure).

However, for the majority of gym goers... being "cut as a sausage" isn't a good look..


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Aubuilt, what would you say the minimum amount of AAS would be apt to hold onto muscle while dieting, would you get away with 50mg Var on a 500 calorie deficit without losing muscle?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Conscript said:


> Aubuilt, what would you say the minimum amount of AAS would be apt to hold onto muscle while dieting, would you get away with 50mg Var on a 500 calorie deficit without losing muscle?


yeah, for dieting I don't believe you need much AAS to fair- after all women can get away with 10mg of VAR and look amazing when dieting..

But, to put this in perspective.. even aids patients to stop muscle wasting have been given 150mg day of oxys... though generally 200mg/week of deca is often used for that purpose too..

So, I think if all you want to do is hold onto some muscle, while on a moderate cal deficit, and taking in high protein and med to low carbs..you"ll likely retain what muscle you have..

but if you take LOADS of AAS, you'll probably end your diet with more muscle than you started..

up to you to choose which is more appropriate to your goal..


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

Conscript said:


> Aubuilt, what would you say the minimum amount of AAS would be apt to hold onto muscle while dieting, would you get away with 50mg Var on a 500 calorie deficit without losing muscle?


yes mate you would ... better with 70 - 100 mg though imo , but you will still be able to stay in a defecit on 50 mg of anavar and retain (not so much gain) muscle and strength will still go up


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## need2bodybuild (May 11, 2011)

I retained what muscle i do have with just 50mg var/day on a cut, allowed me to use t3 with no muscle loss too. I actually got stronger for 3 weeks.


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

Cheers guys, I'm currently pct'ing after 10 months on and was thinking of a sneaky 50mg Var 8 weeker starting in the new year to drop some BF before spring, cycling slin + dnp also. Don't want to use anything to suppressive as I think it would be better to let the hpta recover for a while.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Conscript said:


> Cheers guys, I'm currently pct'ing after 10 months on and was thinking of a sneaky 50mg Var 8 weeker starting in the new year to drop some BF before spring, cycling slin + dnp also. Don't want to use anything to suppressive as I think it would be better to let the hpta recover for a while.


different goals.. and to be honest, if you use 'slin and DNP.. no need for the var-save it for after the 'slin+DNP; 10iu of novorapid (EOD), 400mg dnp on the slin days, 200mg on the off slin days, and you will put on a pretty lean 10lb in a month.. then take the var to diet down a bit further with T3, and keep 200mg DNP a day for the 2nd month.. fantastic results.. last 4 weeks of cycle on just var and T3+clen (2days on 2 off with the t3 for the whole 12weeks)


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## flinty90 (Jul 1, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> different goals.. and to be honest, if you use 'slin and DNP.. no need for the var-save it for after the 'slin+DNP; 10iu of novorapid, 400mg dnp on the slin days, 200mg on the off slin days, and you will put on a pretty lean 10lb in a month.. then take the var to diet down a bit further with T3, and keep 200mg DNP a day for the 2nd month.. fantastic results.. last 4 weeks of cycle on just var and T3+clen (2days on 2 off with the t3 for the whole 12weeks)


Ausbilt come and be my daddy for 12 weeks please lol !!! great info mate your a legend !!! drinking you up like a sponge at the minute hahaha (no ****)


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## Conscript (Sep 5, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> different goals.. and to be honest, if you use 'slin and DNP.. no need for the var-save it for after the 'slin+DNP; 10iu of novorapid, 400mg dnp on the slin days, 200mg on the off slin days, and you will put on a pretty lean 10lb in a month.. then take the var to diet down a bit further with T3, and keep 200mg DNP a day for the 2nd month.. fantastic results.. last 4 weeks of cycle on just var and T3+clen (2days on 2 off with the t3 for the whole 12weeks)


Yeah defo getting novarapid/humalog kwik next time, I've been using actrapid for the past 3 months, but it difficult to keep steady BG levels and have to eat twice + shake between jabs, so dropped it to postwo as the fat gain was almost impossible to avoid when using multiple times daily, even with dnp!

Might do dnp+slin in january, then var/t3/met february, slin+dnp march, var/t3/april and just see how it goes! Cheers :beer:


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## Fatstuff (Mar 2, 2010)

Can't flex fat???? I have a good go lol


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

Aus, why do you say the body will burn aminos before fat when cutting without AAS? It's much easier for it to burn fat than resort to glycogenesis, which is limited and inefficient. Genuinely interested in your reasoning here.


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

flinty90 said:


> Ausbilt come and be my daddy for 12 weeks please lol !!! great info mate your a legend !!! drinking you up like a sponge at the minute hahaha (no ****)


typical.. i keep waiting for a hot chick to say come be my daddy... but ail i get is hard guys! LOL

just jokes.

But in all seriousness.. while i often post about my experiences with quite large doses of.. well AAS and everything else.. thats for people who want to be a certain size.. right now I'm still looking ot be a little leaner and a little bigger (2% leaner, 3kg bigger) but thats my goal as I still HAVE to wear a suit for work and thats kind of my compromise position.. to be as big as i can be within a certain suit size means i cant afford to have much fat wasting space..

But, I recognise that there are different goals.. and for people who want to get lean only/maintain a smaller amount of mass, the answer isnt always massive doses.. it really is using what you need to reach an individual goal, and the answer (surprisingly) isnt always more...

an easy example for me was DNP- spectacular tool.. but at high doses, actually detrimental to performance (to wasted/tired to train properly, to wet to work... to weak to shift enough weight to build muscle), but at low to medium doses, bloody useful for being lean when on 'slin (MUCH better than GH and a fraction of the price.... the bull**** about needing to be on GH for a year plus to see results? its becuase you don't see results like you expect.. with DNP you do..)


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

bayman said:


> Aus, why do you say the body will burn aminos before fat when cutting without AAS? It's much easier for it to burn fat than resort to glycogenesis, which is limited and inefficient. Genuinely interested in your reasoning here.


Did you see this mate?


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

bayman said:


> Aus, why do you say the body will burn aminos before fat when cutting without AAS? It's much easier for it to burn fat than resort to glycogenesis, which is limited and inefficient. Genuinely interested in your reasoning here.


hi mate..

I know you appreciate the debate and the info.. so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid_cycle

from that link:

Several catabolic pathways converge on the TCA cycle. Reactions that form intermediates of the TCA cycle in order to replenish them (especially during the scarcity of the intermediates) are called anaplerotic reactions.

The citric acid cycle is the third step in carbohydrate catabolism (the breakdown of sugars). Glycolysis breaks glucose (a six-carbon-molecule) down into pyruvate (a three-carbon molecule). In eukaryotes, pyruvate moves into the mitochondria. It is converted into acetyl-CoA by decarboxylation and enters the citric acid cycle.

In protein catabolism, proteins are broken down by proteases into their constituent amino acids. The carbon backbone of these amino acids can become a source of energy by being converted to acetyl-CoA and entering into the citric acid cycle.

In fat catabolism, triglycerides are hydrolyzed to break them into fatty acids and glycerol. In the liver the glycerol can be converted into glucose via dihydroxyacetone phosphate and glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate by way of gluconeogenesis. In many tissues, especially heart tissue, fatty acids are broken down through a process known as beta oxidation, which results in acetyl-CoA, which can be used in the citric acid cycle. Beta oxidation of fatty acids with an odd number of methylene groups produces propionyl CoA, which is then converted into succinyl-CoA and fed into the citric acid cycle.[17]

The total energy gained from the complete breakdown of one molecule of glucose by glycolysis, the citric acid cycle, and oxidative phosphorylation equals about 30 ATP molecules, in eukaryotes. The citric acid cycle is called an amphibolic pathway because it participates in both catabolism and anabolism.

while glycolysis is the preferred mechanism... the other entry points are gluconeogenesis, where all that is required is the conversion of amines to acetyl-CoA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis

where as fats need to be broken down into glycerol and fatty acids (the fatty acids can later be used of ketosis), but the glycerol can be converted in to the liver (once again by) gluconegenesis to carbs, before fatty acids are used for ketosis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenesis

you will note from the above link that the use of fatty Acids for energy (i.e krebs cycle) only happens when the liver has no more glycerol to convert to glucose via gluconeogenesis....

However, gluconeogenesis happens FIRST from amino acids that occur both in the diet, AND from the breakdown of muscle tissue...

The way of circumventing THIS form of gluconegenesis is to FORCE the retenion of Nitrogen:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6804639

which steroids do... even at low doses...


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

Conscript said:


> Yeah defo getting novarapid/humalog kwik next time, I've been using actrapid for the past 3 months, but it difficult to keep steady BG levels and have to eat twice + shake between jabs, so dropped it to postwo as the fat gain was almost impossible to avoid when using multiple times daily, even with dnp!
> 
> Might do dnp+slin in january, then var/t3/met february, slin+dnp march, var/t3/april and just see how it goes! Cheers :beer:


if you're not able to get novorapid/humalog just dont do insulin.. to much trouble, and to much fat.. not even close to optimal for lean gains..



bayman said:


> Did you see this mate?


fair shake of the stick mate, I cant type a decent answer that fast! after all am a big dumb BB with big hands from lifting HEAVY weights ;-)


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## bayman (Feb 27, 2010)

ausbuilt said:


> However, gluconeogenesis happens FIRST from amino acids that occur both in the diet, AND from the breakdown of muscle tissue...


Thanks for that mate, interesting reading.

Now taking the highlighted sentence into account, wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest if dietary protein is adequate, then there will be sufficient dietary amino acids to cover this pathway, thus sparing muscle tissue. Hence why protein is important whilst dieting?

Also, when dieting (and carbs tend to be limited) fat oxidation is increased.

The above is touched on here:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/do-i-need-to-eat-more-fat-to-burn-fat-qa.html


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

bayman said:


> Thanks for that mate, interesting reading.
> 
> Now taking the highlighted sentence into account, wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest if dietary protein is adequate, then there will be sufficient dietary amino acids to cover this pathway, thus sparing muscle tissue. Hence why protein is important whilst dieting?
> 
> ...


Well depends what you mean by adequate protein intake...

the problem with protein intake is that there is basically a protein turn over rate- muscle gets catabolised, and then resynthesised from fresh dietry amino acids, and waste aminos (damaged muscle cells etc, which is normal) get excreted.

Now if you take in extra protein... you don't use more than your body's protein turn over rate- the rest is deposited as fat (if calories are in excess) or used in gluconeogenesis if calories are lower than normal..

problem is if you restrict calories, your body is catabolic- and in that circumstance, muscle is metabolically "expensive"; its more efficient to reduce muscle mass as it burns calories at rest; if you also restrict carbs as part of the calorie reduction, you will increase gluconeogenesis- but your protein turn over rate while not increasing, may shift to catabolism rather than "neutral".... of course AAS shift this to anabolism.. more is used for muscle than is excreted...

yes fat oxidation is increased, but only one liver glycogen is depleted (happens after a few days of a keto diet usually, or a few weeks of a regular low carb diet)... the problems is for a regular diet, you have lost a lot of muscle by the time fat oxidation increases- at least in keto diets this done quickly (2-3days, or under 12hours if using 'slin & AAS).


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## Barker (Oct 1, 2009)

I'm willing to bet at least 60% of the people that slate these things, did them.


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