# NGF (Nerve Growth Factor)



## Welshmatt983 (Jun 30, 2008)

I've got a scapula problem, one side is winging, I've not had a nerve test or anything but Im pretty sure I've somehow damaged the long thoracic nerve which has caused loss of function to my serratus muscles causing my scapula to wing out.

Its getting to me now as its taking forever to heal, I've stopped training chest and shoulders and doing extra back work mainly rows. Might of seen a slight improvement after 6 months but its hardly noticable and the problem still exists.

Been reading up on vitamins which may help nerve damage but whilst I was looking up vits I came across this NGF, it was the first I've heard of it so I dont know much about it, but I'm willing to try it if it will help me recover sooner!

Have any of you guys come across this med, would it be worth me trying out?


----------



## glanzav (Sep 11, 2008)

igf or hgh may help mate


----------



## Welshmatt983 (Jun 30, 2008)

glanzav said:


> igf or hgh may help mate


I've read they are good for your tendons, didn't know they helped any nerve damage, I was actually thinking of using IGF anyway, just cash flow is a bit tight at the mo!


----------



## glanzav (Sep 11, 2008)

vit b12 shots would help mate


----------



## Welshmatt983 (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks mate that might be a good call, Im sure B12 helps increase appitite also?


----------



## Joshua (Aug 21, 2008)

I would *strongly* suggest looking at addressing physiotherapy, postural issues and isolation exercises to resolve the problem rather than NGF.

NGF will burn a whole in your wallet and could result in some significant health problems later on [iMO].

You would be unlikely to be able to deliver NGF with sufficient precision to the area needed [iMO], and that is assuming that there is some sort of break in the nerve.

Innervation problems itself can be down to several possible causes also, of which a break is quite unlikely indeed.

I also do not know of any evidence of how Vit B12, IGF1 or hGH would fix a winging scapular either.

J


----------



## Gym Bunny (Mar 25, 2009)

Joshua said:


> I would *strongly* suggest looking at addressing physiotherapy, postural issues and isolation exercises to resolve the problem rather than NGF.
> 
> NGF will burn a whole in your wallet and could result in some significant health problems later on [iMO].
> 
> ...


I echo Joshua's post.

I've spent the last 6 weeks getting physio and undergoing a completely new style of training to address winging scapula issues. Need to post a thread devoted to rehab.

However, in the mean time, I suggest you check out this T-Nation article for winging scap rehab.

I recommend:

Scap pushups

YTWs

Renegade rows

pressups, pressups, pressups.


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Gym Bunny said:


> I echo Joshua's post.
> 
> I've spent the last 6 weeks getting physio and undergoing a completely new style of training to address winging scapula issues. Need to post a thread devoted to rehab.
> 
> ...


I'm not aware of what caused your problem, but I would try pullovers if I were you. The exercise, not the clothing :laugh: It will strengthen the serratus which is the main cause of winging.


----------



## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

Would pullovers actually help? The serratus functions to protract the scapula and surely pullovers don't mimic this action at all since the movement is completely different?


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Ak_88 said:


> Would pullovers actually help? The serratus functions to protract the scapula and surely pullovers don't mimic this action at all since the movement is completely different?


Well my chiropractor says they would, and it makes plenty of sense to me. I'm talking stiff armed, whether with a dumbell or with a machine. If you put your arms above your head and lean them backwards you can feel the rib cage muscles stretch.

Google would seem to agree: http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&q=winging+scapula+serratus&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=6dfc720c697202cc


----------



## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

I'm not disagreeing that the serratus is important in scapula stabilisation and subsequent winging - the anterior fibres and trapezius form a force couple to stabilise the scapula with glenohumeral (shoulder joint) abduction and upward scapula rotation.

What i am confused with is how pullovers, a movement which is primarily flexion and extension of the shoulder joint, is effectively working the serratus, a muscle which works to protract the scapula or to stabilise the scapula during upward rotation.

You're associating a movement with a muscle that does not perform that function.


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Ak_88 said:


> I'm not disagreeing that the serratus is important in scapula stabilisation and subsequent winging - the anterior fibres and trapezius form a force couple to stabilise the scapula with glenohumeral (shoulder joint) abduction and upward scapula rotation.
> 
> What i am confused with is how pullovers, a movement which is primarily flexion and extension of the shoulder joint, is effectively working the serratus, a muscle which works to protract the scapula or to stabilise the scapula during upward rotation.
> 
> *You're associating a movement with a muscle that does not perform that function*.


No I'm not mate.

Like I said, I'm talking straight armed pullovers. I can quite clearly feel the stretch in my rib cage, it's fairly obvious to me.

Pullovers aren't used to train shoulders directly anyway - not sure where you got that idea from.


----------



## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

Ak -88,

What you need to realise is that it doesn't matter what the ACTUAL physiology is...he can FEEL it so it must be happening. OK?

Just because the muscle doesn't actually perform that function DOESN'T MATTER...it's irrelevant because a Bodybuilder can feel it!!!!

If a Bodybuilder can "feel it" then it is true.

That is one of the governing laws of the Universe.

It cannot be argued with using hocus pocus such as accurate physiology, it can only be challenged by a larger bodybuilder "feeling" the opposite thing, in which case the larger bodybuilder will be correct, of course.

Hope this helps,

G


----------



## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

Ok. Lets put this nice and simple.

This is the serratus anterior muscle in red.










It serves the function of protracting the scapula, as illustrated here;










Notice how the scapula are being pulled forward as a result? Thats the serratus doing that, hence it's also known as the boxers muscle.

This is a pullover.



















The movement is occuring *at the shoulder joint* through shoulder flexion and extension.

Extension when you bring the weight down behind your head, and flexion when you return to the starting position.

The muscles responsible for shoulder flexion and extension *do not* include the serratus anterior.

Exrx agrees with me, heres a DB pullover;

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/PectoralSternal/DBPullover.html

And heres the muscles associated with it;

Target

* Pectoralis Major, Sternal

Synergists

* Latissimus Dorsi

* Teres Major

* Triceps, Long Head

* Deltoid, Posterior

* Pectoralis Minor

* Rhomboids

* Levator Scapulae

Stabilizers

* Triceps Brachii

* Deltoid, Anterior

* Pectoralis Major, Clavicular

* Wrist Flexors

As clear as day, the serratus anterior is not on that list, you are not training it using a pullover.

List of exercises for the Serratus anterior;

http://exrx.net/Lists/ExList/ChestWt.html#anchor682036

If you have a look at them the movement required to train the serratus is somewhat different to a pullover.


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ak - during the striaght arm pullover the ribcage expands and contracts, and the position of the scapula changes relative to it throughout. This is where the pullover exerts it's effect on the serratus.

Exrx are an excellent site but on this particular exercise definition I think they've missed this function out, and as a result are a bit misleading.

They do mention that the serratus is involved in scapula elevation and rotation though - http://exrx.net/Articulations/Scapula.html#anchor72635 , and those are movements that occur to the scapula during both the positive and negative phases of the exercise.

The proof is in the pudding anyway - do shoulder width straight arm pullovers for 3x12 at a taxing weight and see where you get DOMS the next day.


----------



## Gym Bunny (Mar 25, 2009)

ba baracuss said:


> I'm not aware of what caused your problem, but I would try pullovers if I were you. The exercise, not the clothing :laugh: It will strengthen the serratus which is the main cause of winging.


Thanks for the suggestion but I will stick to the prescribed rehabilitation program. The cause of my winged scapulae is not a weakened serratus and this is, in fact, the first time I've heard that described as a cause.

Great post Ak_88:thumb:


----------



## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> Ak - during the striaght arm pullover the ribcage expands and contracts, and the position of the scapula changes relative to it throughout. This is where the pullover exerts it's effect on the serratus.
> 
> Exrx are an excellent site but on this particular exercise definition I think they've missed this function out, and as a result are a bit misleading.
> 
> ...


DOMS wouldn't necessarily mean that a muscle is lengthening and shortening though IMO - which is what induces mechanical damage amongst other factors to allow growth.

I did DB rows for the first time in a while last week - the day after my Hamstrings were rather sore, this doesn't mean i'll be using them to build my hamstrings from now on though does it :laugh:

I'm don't believe pullovers use scapula rotation or elevation though?

Scapula rotation comes in a completely different plane of movement to that of a pullover. Heres upward and downward scapular rotation;

http://www.bsu.edu/web/ykwon/pep294/lab2/scapula_rot.gif

That movement is occuring in the frontal plane of motion - i.e glenohumeral abduction or side to side movements.

The pullover works in the sagittal plane of motion - i.e glenohumeral flexion and extension. You don't abduct or adduct the humerus at any time because your arms are straight and fixed into a plane of motion which is entirely different.

In the frontal plane of movement, the scapula does not rotate, it can elevate and depress - but the contribution comes only from the Levator Scapulae, which is comparatively small to the larger and more well known elevators and depressors; the trapezius.

But again - the serratus functions to protract the scapula and *stabilise* the scapula during rotational movements in conjunction with the trapezius.

Pullovers do not mimic these movements - unless with straight arms you are protracting at the top of each rep for the ~2 inches you' get out of protracting your scapula with your arms fully extended - which to me sounds a little too risky on your rotator cuff tendons as you're removing the stable base to move from when you protract.

I'm all for alternative ways of thinking and differeing methodology towards training, but the physiology just cannot be ignored here, the functions of the serratus do not tie in with the movement mechanics of the pullover.


----------



## Virgo83 (Jul 19, 2009)

I have damaged nerves due to a spinal cord injury 6 years ago, resulting in weakness to left tricep and many other muscles on left side of my body, is this ngf something that could be used to help or am i totally missunderstanding :confused1:


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ak_88 said:


> DOMS wouldn't necessarily mean that a muscle is lengthening and shortening though IMO - which is what induces mechanical damage amongst other factors to allow growth.
> 
> I did DB rows for the first time in a while last week - the day after my Hamstrings were rather sore, this doesn't mean i'll be using them to build my hamstrings from now on though does it :laugh:
> 
> ...


With all due respect Ak, yes they do :tt2:

I agree with all that you say about function of the muscles but you are missing something important about how straight arm pullovers are or should be performed.

You are looking at it from a point of view of starting the exercise with all muscles relaxed and which muscles would then contract during a SA pullover - you are forgetting that all muscles around the humeral joint should be tensed from the start of the movement - you are pulling your shoulders in and tight and consiously contracting the serratus all the way through the ROM in an isometric fashion.

As your hands are in a fixed position on the bar your humerous doesn't and can't rotate laterally (agreed), but the tensing of the serratus has the effect of making you pull on the bar as if attempting to pull it apart in the middle during the movement. You don't just grip the bar, you pull outwardly on it as if wanting to rip it in half. This pulling comes from the isometric tension in the contracted serratus (and other muscles), and is how the serratus gets stimulated.

And btw, if DB rows give you DOMS in your hams then you have clearly used them in the exercise. Of course DOMS isn't an indicator of a strong enough stimulation for growth, but it is an indicator of a muscles involement in a particular movement. To put it another way you don't get DOMS in non worked muscles.


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Here's a study for you showing muscle activation of the serratus as measured with EMG during pullovers:



> ELECTROMYOGRAPHIC VALIDATION OF THE TRAPEZIUS AND
> 
> SERRATUS ANTERIOR MUSCLES IN PULL-OVER EXERCISES
> 
> ...


http://jms.org.br/PDF/v18n1a11.pdf

It shows that both forms of the pullover have the ability to work the serratus.


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

Wee G said:


> Ak -88,
> 
> What you need to realise is that it doesn't matter what the ACTUAL physiology is...he can FEEL it so it must be happening. OK?
> 
> ...


 

I used an explanation of how it feels to try to put across in simple terms how it works the muscle group.

I was given the exercise by a qualified chiropractor who specialises in sports injury rehab and has a 300kg deadlift and squat to his name.

What are your qualifications, other than giving yourself wedgies in avatars and making sarcastic posts with no contructive input of your own?


----------



## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

Dtlv74 said:


> You are looking at it from a point of view of starting the exercise with all muscles relaxed and which muscles would then contract during a SA pullover - you are forgetting that all muscles around the humeral joint should be tensed from the start of the movement - you are pulling your shoulders in and *tight and consiously contracting the serratus all the way through the ROM in an **isometric fashion**.*


You seem to be on a similar wavelength as me r/e physiology which is handy. Surely then the fact that it's an isometric contraction, thus the muscle length is unchanged, means that there are very little or no microtears occuring to the serratus in order to provide that growth stimulus?



> As your hands are in a fixed position on the bar your humerous doesn't and can't rotate laterally (agreed), but the tensing of the serratus has the effect of making you pull on the bar as if attempting to pull it apart in the middle during the movement. You don't just grip the bar, you pull outwardly on it as if wanting to rip it in half. *This pulling comes from the isometric tension in the contracted serratus (and other muscles), and is how the serratus gets stimulated*.


Again i'm probably missing something - but pulling the bar apart, isometrically or otherwise, mimics movements of horizontal abduction and potentially scapula retraction surely? That to me says you've got more of an iso contraction coming from the scapular retractors and horizontal abductors - off the top of my head would be the rhomboids, mid/low traps and posterior delts.



> And btw, if DB rows give you DOMS in your hams then you have clearly used them in the exercise. Of course DOMS isn't an indicator of a strong enough stimulation for growth, but it is an indicator of a muscles involement in a particular movement. To put it another way you don't get DOMS in non worked muscles.


You don't get DOMS in unworked muscles, agree totally. But the position you hold for a DB row generally (IME) has the hamstring on a stretch and perhaps an iso contraction, depending on how much hip extension you employ.

Interesting paper - although it does seem to avoid the subject of how the serratus is working. It shows it's active during some phase of the movement no doubt, but theres no mention of whether it's isotonic or isometric, which really are fundamental when it comes to inducing hypertrophy.


----------



## ba baracuss (Apr 26, 2004)

AK mate with respect, your user title says 'aspiring physio' - how much practical experience do you have of physio and training?

The guy who gave me the exercise has 30 years of training and 20 years of practice as a chiropractor to back him up, thus he's given this exercise out to patients and seen results with it.

Your technical stuff is interesting, but the proof is in the pudding, not the book.


----------



## Ak_88 (Nov 9, 2008)

4 years of training experience, 3 years prior to starting my Physio MSc doing a Sport & Exercise Science degree (1st class degree - 1st class dissertation in Biomechanics) and started my pre-reg MSc in Physio this year. Without being arrogant, i consider myself to know a fair amount when it comes to exercise kinesiology.

I'm not saying your chiro is completely wrong, but the logic for prescribing pullovers as an exercise to strengthen the serratus in comparison to other exercises seems strange.

Not pants-on-head retarded wrong, but strange. My cousin's a recently qualified Chiro and theres an inherent level of difference when it comes to clinical reasoning and practical applications.

The proof may well be in the practical side of things, but where do you think the knowledge came from?

A book.


----------



## Ballerman17 (Dec 26, 2012)

Okay, I know this Post is Over two year's old But Seem the have the same problem, Broke my Right hand about a year ago, I've been training Like any Bodybuilder would, But i still have winging of scapula, Even with Twice a week back workout's, I would really like to hear back from you Ba Baracuss, And know if you had any Great result's from from you pullover Extensive Workout's? Did you get full Restoration of Your Serratus Anterior? I've heard alot of speculation about the Straight arm full extension Exercise Ak Was talking about, I would assume it Isolate's the Serratus Anterior While not bringing other larger muscle group's into play, Although to make Any muscle contraction like for example a Straight arm full extension Exercise your body would naturally have to use larger muscle group's as stabilizer's as with any other exercise, I can understand Primary Muscle contraction. I Would really love to hear back from you Ba Baracuss on your result's from your extensive pull over routine, This site was build to help other's in need, I consider everyone as either my brother or my sister in this world, As weird as that must sound, I would be Greatly indebted to you if you were to Give me feed back on your routine Negative or Positive, Honestly is all i want, And don't be afraid if it's negative because just with your testimony, Your helping save one more person in this world A lot of time heart and sweat, And that would mark just one more thing off list, I Aspire to be one of the world's top contending Strong men, I was Going to be just a Bodybuilder, And was almost there, Until this Boxer fracture, Ever since my life as altered, Right now i assume i have to go back to the basic's But don't really know where to start and if i can workout other body part's while having and extensive Serratus Anterior workout to top it all off, Anyway, My name is Shawn Porter and i would love any update from people on here with the same problem and if They found a way to Manage And Extinguish this problem, Especially you Ba Baracuss, Seeing that you Started this post. Also this is about the only page i've run across so far that is most beneficial For the Serratus Anterior. Any Info Given to help me in my quest will be also be given to other's, I wan to give back someday, And This would be a great way to start in Various different way's, Sorry if this passage seem's like a run on Sentence, But when i'm Passionate about something i give it my all, And never give up


----------



## griffo13 (Dec 7, 2009)

i had winged scapula befor.... this exercise imo is very good.






there are some other exercises that will help to. but having good stability in all areas of the shoulder girdle is very important in maintaining good shoulder health


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

griffo13 said:


> i had winged scapula befor.... this exercise imo is very good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have tried those before, surprisingly tiring movement.

I agree, for optimal shoulder strength and stability you need to work a lot of angles and movements to avoid an imbalance... very complex joint the shoulder, and imo all too easy to develop an imbalance with long term overly abbreviated routines.

Old thread this, lol.


----------



## griffo13 (Dec 7, 2009)

dtlv said:


> Have tried those before, surprisingly tiring movement.
> 
> I agree, for optimal shoulder strength and stability you need to work a lot of angles and movements to avoid an imbalance... very complex joint the shoulder, and imo all too easy to develop an imbalance with long term overly abbreviated routines.
> 
> Old thread this, lol.


im a sucker for the oldies lol


----------

