# Metformin / aids in a pill



## swole troll

as some of you know i recently bulked up to 320ish lb in pursuit of strength at all costs

i did this with a test only cycle so no heavy androgens at play on the strength

i managed to get up to a 255kg squat

im saying all this because today even though ive been cutting about 2-3 weeks now and down to 298lb i went into the gym and couldnt get anything more than a double with 190kg,
last week it was the same with squats and bench press, weights i could do sets of 9 with i was hitting for 2 and then a single on the set after

strength loss is normal during a cut but this early on and at the weight i am at is ridiculous! im usually able to at the very least maintain my strength this early on
particularly since i wasnt running an aggressive strength cycle like tren or anadrol where you WILL lose significant strength when dropping either of those compounds

after reading into it ever since i got back today i figured the only variable that had changed from previous cuts was the addition of 500mg metformin ED (inc pre wo)

studies suggesting its negative effects on muscle building and strength preservation plus plenty of anecdote

*TLDR: ive suggested metformin to many looking to increase insulin sensitivity and still would in those with really bad fasted blood sugars not running insulin but use it for as short a time as possible or at the very least during a blast and not around your workout (best taken on non workout days) as ive read about and personally now experienced a significant decrease in strength which can be attributed to nothing else other than metformin *


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## Matt6210

swole troll said:


> as some of you know i recently bulked up to 320ish lb in pursuit of strength at all costs
> 
> i did this with a test only cycle so no heavy androgens at play on the strength
> 
> i managed to get up to a 255kg squat
> 
> im saying all this because today even though ive been cutting about 2-3 weeks now and down to 298lb i went into the gym and couldnt get anything more than a double with 190kg,
> last week it was the same with squats and bench press, weights i could do sets of 9 with i was hitting for 2 and then a single on the set after
> 
> strength loss is normal during a cut but this early on and at the weight i am at is ridiculous! im usually able to at the very least maintain my strength this early on
> particularly since i wasnt running an aggressive strength cycle like tren or anadrol where you WILL lose significant strength when dropping either of those compounds
> 
> after reading into it ever since i got back today i figured the only variable that had changed from previous cuts was the addition of 500mg metformin ED (inc pre wo)
> 
> studies suggesting its negative effects on muscle building and strength preservation plus plenty of anecdote
> 
> *TLDR: ive suggested metformin to many looking to increase insulin sensitivity and still would in those with really bad fasted blood sugars not running insulin but use it for as short a time as possible or at the very least during a blast and not around your workout (best taken on non workout days) as ive read about and personally now experienced a significant decrease in strength which can be attributed to nothing else other than metformin *


 Mothe ****er don't tell me that bro! Just started 1000mg a day!


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## swole troll

Matt6210 said:


> Mothe ****er don't tell me that bro! Just started 1000mg a day!


 just found out today myself

i cant see what else it is but ive never had anything hit my strength this hard

even T3 which i hate! for that reason

id look into glycomax

you still need to get your BG down ASAP!

https://www.stromsports.com/products/strom-presents-glycomax-240-caps-60-servings


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## Matt6210

swole troll said:


> just found out today myself
> 
> i cant see what else it is but ive never had anything hit my strength this hard
> 
> even T3 which i hate! for that reason
> 
> id look into glycomax
> 
> you still need to get your BG down ASAP!
> 
> https://www.stromsports.com/products/strom-presents-glycomax-240-caps-60-servings


 Yea I'll stay on it mate, i think it should drop pretty quick without the mk, gh and 500g carbs a day, I was on 50mg mk a day.


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## swole troll

Matt6210 said:


> Yea I'll stay on it mate, i think it should drop pretty quick without the mk, gh and 500g carbs a day, I was on 50mg mk a day.


 i could be wrong

its just after reading an article, other peoples posts about it and then my results recently it seems too big a coincidence

also worth noting ive been on it for about 3 months but taking it on non training days so maybe its just now that i included it pre workout that its fu**ing with my strength but either way this has been the most significant drop in my strength in a short space of time since i completely tore my pec off the bone


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## Matt6210

swole troll said:


> i could be wrong
> 
> its just after reading an article, other peoples posts about it and then my results recently it seems too big a coincidence
> 
> also worth noting ive been on it for about 3 months but taking it on non training days so maybe its just now that i included it pre workout that its fu**ing with my strength but either way this has been the most significant drop in my strength in a short space of time since i completely tore my pec off the bone


 I'll do bit of digging and reading up when i get in mate. I'm hoping to get it down and get off it ASAP tho, when it's down I'll introduce gh again but leave mk till blast in 3 months.

start cycling mk, bet I was on it 6 or 7 months straight


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## 66983

I had seriously bad lethargy with it, using it this way at upto 1500mg post heavy carb meal.

Also after a particularly heavy carb session - at a guess 8-10k calories worth and 2000mg Metformin taken along with in, I awoke 10 hours later to a fasted Blood glucose level of 8.4!

[email protected]@kin s**t myself, fasted for 24 hours and it came back down to 4.3.

*
STAY BIG WHILE GETTING SHREDDED WITH METFORMIN
*

Posted by Matt Porter on March 08, 2017

*

*

How many times have you heard people say when they are *dieting for fat loss* that they are flat, weak, losing muscle, or all of the above? Usually the people who say such things do not have a proper grasp on how to effectively construct a diet for extreme fat loss while maintaining muscle tissue. The same people also convince themselves that they cannot get lean without sacrificing substantial lean tissue in the process. I am here to tell you that if you diet right, supplement right, and train effectively, than you surely can keep your muscle tissue while incinerating your winter blubber from your holiday *"bulking diet.*"

In fact, when people get overly lenient with their dietary habits over the winter months, they oftentimes do not eat consistently and make poor food choices. They unknowingly set themselves up for the potential to gain a little muscle while getting shredded from diligent eating, supplementation, and consistent training.

Once the dieter gets into the midst of their fat loss stage and has become fairly lean in the *8-9% body fat range*, they can begin incorporating the oral anti-diabetic drug *Metformin*. This drug also goes by the name Glucophage and belongs to a class of drugs called biguanides. It is used for treating non-insulin dependent type 2 diabetics with insulin resistance.

Metformin is generally well tolerated and is beneficial to the prolonged dieter attempting to retain muscle tissue while going from* lean** to shredded,* which translates to -- going from *8-9%* body fat to *4-5%* body fat. When attempting to achieve extremely low levels of body fat, a cascade of hormonal events begin taking place, making will power, discipline and strong mental fortitude crucial to succeeding. Constant hunger becomes indefinite, while mental acuity begins to plummet.










Carbohydrates will be very limited as well as total calories. You will need a plan of action of how to best take advantage of* Metformins* insulin sensitizing and nutrient transporting effects when on *extremely low carbohydrates*. There are a few different ways to go about this.

One way would be to dose it *before* and *after *your post workout carbohydrate meal on training days. You could take *500 mgs 30 minutes* before ceasing exercise, so* Metformin *is actively in your blood stream for efficient glucose shuttling. Another option which I personally prefer is to use *Metformin* on carbohydrate refeed days at* 2 days a week.* This would entail dosing the *Metformin *around your refeed period which could be anywhere from 4-12 hours depending on how lean you are.

*For example: *Let's say your refeed is 6 hours. You would dose *500 mgs* at your first bite of food, then *500 mgs* 3 hours later, then *1000 mgs* right before bed. Why *1000 mgs* right before bed you might ask? Because dosing it before bed helps facilitate the transport and clearance of glucose out of your blood stream and into your muscle cells as quickly as possible, so when you wake up, blood sugar and insulin levels are extremely low. Having low levels of insulin and blood sugar will allow you to get right back to oxidizing body fat for fuel opposed to glucose.

*Carbohydrate refeed schedule** -*
(Refeed begins post workout at 3 pm.)

*3:00 pm* - Take first dose of Metformin *(500 mgs)* at start of meal

*6:00 pm* - Take second dose of Metformin *(500 mgs)* at second meal

*10:00 pm* - Take final dose of Metformin *(1000 mgs)* at final meal of day.

*(Do not ingest carbohydrates after 10:00 pm so you return to baseline insulin levels upon waking)*

Another reason why I favor the second option of a twice week dosing schedule of *Metformin* is because recent research has demonstrated that* Metformin* can decrease testosterone production and raise sex hormone binding globulin when dosed consistently for *2 weeks* at *1700 mgs a day*. When you dose *Metformin* infrequently as in twice a week, the negative effect on testosterone levels will be miniscule to non- existent. You will benefit from an increased level of AMP-activated protein kinase activity in skeletal muscle, which will increase the translocation of *GLUT-4* transporters to skeletal muscle, increasing glucose uptake. AMP-activated protein kinase will also increase fatty acid oxidation by inactivating acetyl-CoA-carboxylase. By regulating acetyl- CoA-carboxylase, carnitine palmitoyltransferase* (CPT-1)* is *not* blocked and able to transport fatty acids into the mitochondria for oxidation.

*(GLUT-4 Transporter (CPT-1)*


*














*​
*Metformin* is very useful to the extreme dieter due to its selectivity towards *muscle cells* opposed to *fat cells *when clearing nutrients from the blood. It has also been demonstrated to serve as an anti-catabolic agent when muscles have been immobilized due to bone or joint complications. A study was conducted to observe the effect *Metformin* had on maintaining muscle glycogen inside muscle fibers and stabilizing muscle weight during inactivity of muscles in test rats. Researchers discovered that rats *not* treated with *Metformin* lost significant muscle glycogen and muscle weight when muscles were immobilized. Inactive muscles also became insulin resistant due to down regulation of insulin receptor substrate-1* (IRS-1)* in intra-cellular tissues. Decreased *IRS-1* along with *GLUT-4* translocation is a recipe for muscular atrophy.

It has become pretty clear that *Metformin* will play an integral role in the extreme dieter's plight in achieving ultimate body fat loss while retaining lean muscle tissue. To recap, *Metformin *will benefit the dieter with attributes such as:

*-Increased insulin sensitivity in muscle cells rather than adipose tissue.*

*-Quickly clears glucose out of the blood stream and into muscle cells for immediate stabilization of blood sugar levels.*

*-Serves as an anti-catabolic aid in muscle fibers by retaining muscle weight and glycogen content.*

*-Increased AMP-activated protein kinase levels for enhanced fatty acid oxidation.*

*-Suppresses appetite when on restricted calories.*

*-Increased GLUT-4 transporters allow muscles to be efficiently loaded with glycogen for a fuller cosmetic appearance and optimal muscular performance.*

*References:*

*1.)*Lee A, Morley JE*.*
*Metformin decreases food consumption and induces weight loss in subjects with obesity with type II non-insulin-dependent diabetes. *Obes Res. 1998 Jan;6(1):47-53.

*2.)*Hays JH, Gorman RT, Shakir KM. *Results of use of metformin and replacement of starch with saturated fat in diets of patients with type 2 diabetes. *Endocr Pract. 2002 May-Jun;8(3):177-83.

*3.)*Klip A, Gumà A, Ramlal T, Bilan PJ, Lam L, Leiter LA.
*Stimulation of hexose transport by metformin in L6 muscle cells in culture.*Endocrinology. 1992 May;130(5):2535-44.

*4.)*Lindsey D. Bogachus1,2 and Lorraine P. Turcotte1,* Genetic downregulation of AMPK-? isoforms uncovers the mechanism by which metformin decreases FA uptake and oxidation in skeletal muscle cells. *Am J Physiol Cell Physiol
December 2010 vol. 299 no. 6 C1549-C1561

*5.)*Galuska D, Zierath J, Thorne A, Sonnenfeld T, Wallberg-Henriksson H. *Metformin increases insulin-stimulated glucose transport in insulin-resistant human skeletal muscle*. Department of Clinical Physiology, Karolinska Hospital, Stockholm, Sweden.

*6.**)*Taylor EB, Hurst D, Greenwood LJ, Lamb JD, Cline TD, Sudweeks SN, Winder WW (December 2004). "*Endurance training increases LKB1 and MO25 protein but not AMP-activated protein kinase kinase activity in skeletal muscle*". Am. J. Physiol. Endocrinol. Metab. *287* (6): E1082-9. doi:10.1152/ajpendo.00179.2004.PMID 15292028.

*7.)* Ouchi N, Shibata R, Walsh K (April 2005). "*AMP-activated protein kinase signaling stimulates VEGF expression and angiogenesis in skeletal muscle*". Circ. Res. *96* (8): 838-46.doi:10.1161/01.RES.0000163633.10240.3b.PMID 15790954.

*8.)*Reddi AS, Jyothirmayi GN. *Effect of chronic metformin treatment of hepatic and muscle glycogen metabolism in KK mice.* Biochem Med Metab Biol. 1992 Apr;47(2):124-32.

*9.)*Paula Lima BosiI,; Gabriel Delfino Borges; João Luiz Quagliotti DuriganII; Karina Maria CancellieroII; Carlos Alberto da Silva. *Metformin protects the skeletal muscle glycogen stores against alterations inherent to functional limitation*. Braz. arch. biol. technol. vol.51 no.2 Curitiba Mar./Apr. 2008.


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## JakobJuice

use it 2-3x per week at 500mg on hgh days--If I don't take it, especially if tren or sdrol is in the mix, always got this hypo feeling.

Never had problems with my training whatsoever.

except on leg day...can't get a good s**t out of my arse for life if I take in in the morning, always struggling with the feeling that a brownie is kocking on the door...

but yeah. I like to live a dangerous life :thumbup1:


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## arbffgadm100

swole troll said:


> just found out today myself
> 
> i cant see what else it is but ive never had anything hit my strength this hard
> 
> even T3 which i hate! for that reason
> 
> id look into glycomax
> 
> you still need to get your BG down ASAP!
> 
> https://www.stromsports.com/products/strom-presents-glycomax-240-caps-60-servings


 Mate, GR did a HUUUUGE rebuttal to that mTOR argument in my log. Go check it out.

TL;DR

Metaformin does not in any way hinder protein accretion or affect strength negatively.


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## swole troll

arbffgadm100 said:


> Mate, GR did a HUUUUGE rebuttal to that mTOR argument in my log. Go check it out.
> 
> TL;DR
> 
> Metaformin does not in any way hinder protein accretion or affect strength negatively.


 interesting

well im baffled as to whats happened to me then

ive literally lose 55kg off my squat based off todays workout and last thursdays workout


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## arbffgadm100

Some thoughts and personal experiences:

*-Increased insulin sensitivity in muscle cells rather than adipose tissue.*

I do notice a difference when on restricted carbs as to muscle glycogen levels.

*-Quickly clears glucose out of the blood stream and into muscle cells for immediate stabilization of blood sugar levels.*

In a healthy person, this should happen anyway. On very very high carb boluses, metaformin makes no difference to the speed of the glucose clearance, anecdotally evidenced by lots of trial and error between GR and me at the start of my time with him (glucometer measurements).

*-Serves as an anti-catabolic aid in muscle fibers by retaining muscle weight and glycogen content.*

Seems reasonable.

*-Increased AMP-activated protein kinase levels for enhanced fatty acid oxidation.*

Seems reasonable, although see GR's fuller explanation of how much this actually matters in my log.

*-Suppresses appetite when on restricted calories.*

Absolutely not. Has zero impact on my hunger.

*-Increased GLUT-4 transporters allow muscles to be efficiently loaded with glycogen for a fuller cosmetic appearance and optimal muscular performance.*

See above.


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## arbffgadm100

swole troll said:


> interesting
> 
> well im baffled as to whats happened to me then
> 
> ive literally lose 55kg off my squat based off todays workout and last thursdays workout


 To be fair mate, ay 96kg I squatted 180x7, 190x2 and 200x1. At 91kg I struggled to squat 155x7. Spaced about what, 4-6 weeks apart. Based on the 180-155 I have lost 25kg off my squat with a 5kg change in body mass brought about by a 30-40% deficit.


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## arbffgadm100

Something else worth bearing in mind is GR once told me (and I didn't ask for an explanation, so I don't have one, but I have zero reason to doubt him) never to go above 1,500mg a day, and to try to keep it at or below 1,000mg a day if used consistently.


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## swole troll

arbffgadm100 said:


> To be fair mate, ay 96kg I squatted 180x7, 190x2 and 200x1. At 91kg I struggled to squat 155x7. Spaced about what, 4-6 weeks apart. Based on the 180-155 I have lost 25kg off my squat with a 5kg change in body mass brought about by a 30-40% deficit.


 but you are very lean

im carrying significant body fat

plus im only 2 weeks into my cut lol


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## dumbat

I have read that Meformin decreases mitochrondrial respiration.

I know that Datbtrue used to warn against the use of this drug as it reduces mitochondrial energy levels and therefore decreases MPS.


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## arbffgadm100

swole troll said:


> but you are very lean
> 
> im carrying significant body fat
> 
> plus im only 2 weeks into my cut lol


 Fair enough dude. Have you cut back on the drugs? If so, even long esters would be starting to clear by now?


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## swole troll

arbffgadm100 said:


> Fair enough dude. Have you cut back on the drugs? If so, even long esters would be starting to clear by now?


 yea i cut back 3 weeks ago

went from 1.5g test to
250mg test with 5iu GH 4x per week

even so i shouldnt have dropped this much strength

i mean f**k it i was livid in the gym earlier as i rattled up 190kg but is what it is

ill gain my strength back at a much lighter body weight by new year


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## arbffgadm100

swole troll said:


> yea i cut back 3 weeks ago
> 
> went from 1.5g test to
> 250mg test with 5iu GH 4x per week
> 
> even so i shouldnt have dropped this much strength
> 
> i mean f**k it i was livid in the gym earlier as i rattled up 190kg but is what it is
> 
> *ill gain my strength back at a much lighter body weight by new year*


 That's it mate. In it for the long game!!


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## Lancashiregent

dumbat said:


> I have read that Meformin decreases mitochrondrial respiration.
> 
> I know that Datbtrue used to warn against the use of this drug as it reduces mitochondrial energy levels and therefore decreases MPS.


 Good to see an old Datbtruer round these parts again...


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## Ferenor

So does metformin decrease or not strength? I'm currently using it on a bulk, 500 mg * 3.


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## swole troll

anecdote of peace coming up

last thursday metformin pre wo and i benched 132.5kg for 2 reps! which is s**t for me

went in today, all other variables even but with metformin taken out, benched 120kg for 10 reps as a top set / pre fatigued

the ONLY time im using metformin going forward is during a blast when im using high dose growth and or insulin and i will use it on off days from training

other than that i rate combo GDA supps like matador or glycomax


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## capo

swole troll said:


> anecdote of peace coming up
> 
> last thursday metformin pre wo and i benched 132.5kg for 2 reps! which is s**t for me
> 
> went in today, all other variables even but with metformin taken out, benched 120kg for 10 reps as a top set / pre fatigued
> 
> the ONLY time im using metformin going forward is during a blast when im using high dose growth and or insulin and i will use it on off days from training
> 
> other than that i rate combo GDA supps like matador or glycomax


 Been on MK for a good few months do you think 500mg metformin with evening meal or one of those GDA would be better ,I read this thread and had my levels checked wasn't fasted had coffee latte and protein shake and readings 6.7 ,will get in done fasted next week.My mums type 2 and her doctor reckons anything under 10 is okay?


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## Matt6210

capo said:


> Been on MK for a good few months do you think 500mg metformin with evening meal or one of those GDA would be better ,I read this thread and had my levels checked wasn't fasted had coffee latte and protein shake and readings 6.7 ,will get in done fasted next week.My mums type 2 and her doctor reckons anything under 10 is okay?


 Wants to be quite bit lower fasted


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## swole troll

capo said:


> Been on MK for a good few months do you think 500mg metformin with evening meal or one of those GDA would be better ,I read this thread and had my levels checked wasn't fasted had coffee latte and protein shake and readings 6.7 ,will get in done fasted next week.My mums type 2 and her doctor reckons anything under 10 is okay?


 Anything over 5.6mmol is considered pre diabetic in the UK


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## capo

Matt6210 said:


> Wants to be quite bit lower fasted


 That's what I thought I will get it checked next week totally fasted and see what it reads


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## Matt6210

capo said:


> That's what I thought I will get it checked next week totally fasted and see what it reads


 Recently had to stop mk as my fasted reading was 7 odd, dropped it and dropped gh used metformin and got 4.6 reading fasted today prob after 3 days, so dropped quick just got to make sure it stays lower for few days.

I was on mk probably 6 months, going to cycle it now, blasts only.


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## capo

Matt6210 said:


> Recently had to stop mk as my fasted reading was 7 odd, dropped it and dropped gh used metformin and got 4.6 reading fasted today prob after 3 days, so dropped quick just got to make sure it stays lower for few days.
> 
> I was on mk probably 6 months, going to cycle it now, blasts only.


 Sounds a good idea mate I heard people were dosing 5on 2 off also probably because of that reason ,it's good it drops quickly so can't see it's done any damage


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## Matt6210

capo said:


> Sounds a good idea mate I heard people were dosing 5on 2 off also probably because of that reason ,it's good it drops quickly so can't see it's done any damage


 Yeah 5 on 2 off makes sense like with gh, I was also running mk pretty high, 50mg a day.


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## capo

Matt6210 said:


> Yeah 5 on 2 off makes sense like with gh, I was also running mk pretty high, 50mg a day.


 25mg for me max muscle labs going to get a fasted reading and see from there,


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## Matt6210

capo said:


> 25mg for me max muscle labs going to get a fasted reading and see from there,


 Yea I use max muscle


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## simonboyle

swole troll said:


> as some of you know i recently bulked up to 320ish lb in pursuit of strength at all costs
> 
> i did this with a test only cycle so no heavy androgens at play on the strength
> 
> i managed to get up to a 255kg squat
> 
> im saying all this because today even though ive been cutting about 2-3 weeks now and down to 298lb i went into the gym and couldnt get anything more than a double with 190kg,
> last week it was the same with squats and bench press, weights i could do sets of 9 with i was hitting for 2 and then a single on the set after
> 
> strength loss is normal during a cut but this early on and at the weight i am at is ridiculous! im usually able to at the very least maintain my strength this early on
> particularly since i wasnt running an aggressive strength cycle like tren or anadrol where you WILL lose significant strength when dropping either of those compounds
> 
> after reading into it ever since i got back today i figured the only variable that had changed from previous cuts was the addition of 500mg metformin ED (inc pre wo)
> 
> studies suggesting its negative effects on muscle building and strength preservation plus plenty of anecdote
> 
> *TLDR: ive suggested metformin to many looking to increase insulin sensitivity and still would in those with really bad fasted blood sugars not running insulin but use it for as short a time as possible or at the very least during a blast and not around your workout (best taken on non workout days) as ive read about and personally now experienced a significant decrease in strength which can be attributed to nothing else other than metformin *


 Or use berberine


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## Lifesizepenguin

swole troll said:


> but you are very lean
> 
> im carrying significant body fat
> 
> plus im only 2 weeks into my cut lol


 first 3-4 weeks of my cut i lost around 30% strength.

I then built back up whilst cutting again.

never happened before - but also never been so strong before either after bulk.

i seemed to be lacking in energy and also mentally drove myself down with cutting.

keep strength training i think you won't freefall further mate but build back up again.

my example:

peak bulk bench: 140kgx1

3 weeks into cutting: failed 110x1 (panic set in)

12-14 weeks into cut (today): 115x5


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## swole troll

simonboyle said:


> Or use berberine


 Berberine is good but glycomax which also contains berberine lowers my bg to the point of hypo if I'm not careful

Depends how bad your fbg is I guess but as a safety net berberine's decent


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## swole troll

Lifesizepenguin said:


> failed 110x1 (panic set in)
> 
> 12-14 weeks into cut (today): 115x5


 It is like that

I genuinely felt completely defeated the other day doubling a weight I use to hit for 9 reps

Particualrly just 2-3 weeks into my cut

Made me think if this is happening now where am I going to be in 3 months


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## Matt6210

swole troll said:


> It is like that
> 
> I genuinely felt completely defeated the other day doubling a weight I use to hit for 9 reps
> 
> Particualrly just 2-3 weeks into my cut
> 
> Made me think if this is happening now where am I going to be in 3 months


 Maybe it's the drop in cals bro


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## swole troll

Matt6210 said:


> Maybe it's the drop in cals bro


 I thought that but i never had it happen this quick in the past though

I'm only couple weeks in and still heavy as f**k

I can usually get away with a month or so before strength starts to drop unless I'm coming off a tren or oral cycle, my last blast was just test and I can't say I felt a massive boost in strength from it


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## Lifesizepenguin

swole troll said:


> It is like that
> 
> I genuinely felt completely defeated the other day doubling a weight I use to hit for 9 reps
> 
> Particualrly just 2-3 weeks into my cut
> 
> Made me think if this is happening now where am I going to be in 3 months


 you run 5/3/1 like me still?

give your body some time to get used to the shock of dropping all the carbs and cals.

save large amounts of carbs for pre workout and more fats after.

just keep focusing on those amrap sets and they will climb again.


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## swole troll

Lifesizepenguin said:


> you run 5/3/1 like me still?
> 
> give your body some time to get used to the shock of dropping all the carbs and cals.
> 
> save large amounts of carbs for pre workout and more fats after.
> 
> just keep focusing on those amrap sets and they will climb again.


 Literally just gone back to 531

My mate has been programming me about a year now but I've been in a constant surplus or at maintenance

This is first time working with him on a cut and his programming fu**ing buried me! It's really effective if bulking and or blasting but in a deficit and cruising it's knocked the piss out of me


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## Matt6210

swole troll said:


> I thought that but i never had it happen this quick in the past though
> 
> I'm only couple weeks in and still heavy as f**k
> 
> I can usually get away with a month or so before strength starts to drop unless I'm coming off a tren or oral cycle, my last blast was just test and I can't say I felt a massive boost in strength from it


 You ever had such a massive drop in cals in one go tho?


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## swole troll

Matt6210 said:


> You ever had such a massive drop in cals in one go tho?


 Yea think so.

There is a lot of potential reasons:

Coming off blast

Dropping a lot of weight quick

Metformin

Just a shitty couple of sessions


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## Lifesizepenguin

swole troll said:


> Literally just gone back to 531
> 
> My mate has been programming me about a year now but I've been in a constant surplus or at maintenance
> 
> This is first time working with him on a cut and his programming fu**ing buried me! It's really effective if bulking and or blasting but in a deficit and cruising it's knocked the piss out of me


 it's been very effective for building strength on a cut. id advise doing extremely high rep accessory work whilst cutting to not burn out your CNS capacity. save all the real juice for the main lift when cutting


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## swole troll

Lifesizepenguin said:


> it's been very effective for building strength on a cut. id advise doing extremely high rep accessory work whilst cutting to not burn out your CNS capacity. save all the real juice for the main lift when cutting


 Yea that what I'm doing

1x per week freq

With 2 compounds and an iso after the 531

For instance bench today was

Bench 531

Incline bench 3x10

Hammer strength chest press 3x12

Cable cross over 4x15

Using a good pump supplement too which is bringing a bit more enjoyment to training despite getting weaker


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## Lifesizepenguin

swole troll said:


> Yea that what I'm doing
> 
> 1x per week freq
> 
> With 2 compounds and an iso after the 531
> 
> For instance bench today was
> 
> Bench 531
> 
> Incline bench 3x10
> 
> Hammer strength chest press 3x12
> 
> Cable cross over 4x15
> 
> Using a good pump supplement too which is bringing a bit more enjoyment to training despite getting weaker


 mine looks similar although i enjoy doing a single or double set of all out low weight pump for my last main group exercise - here's an example of today's:

5/3/1 bench

BBB bench (5x singles, 3s or 5s)

incline bench 3x8-10

machine chest flyes 2x35-50 (until failure)

10x10 unilateral - tricep extension/cable curl for arms

does the job keeps a pump and still making reps and weight progress after the initial drop and stability.

next bulk strength should go even higher.


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## Lifesizepenguin

what's good supp for pump @swole troll


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## Matt6210

Lifesizepenguin said:


> what's good supp for pump @swole troll


 Gh


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## simonboyle

swole troll said:


> Berberine is good but glycomax which also contains berberine lowers my bg to the point of hypo if I'm not careful
> 
> Depends how bad your fbg is I guess but as a safety net berberine's decent


 Yes mate. Been using abiut 2 weeks. Full as fexk. Leaner. Strength creeping up


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## Lifesizepenguin

Matt6210 said:


> Gh


 :lol: not exactly what i meant....

GH is for a good bull cycle for me.

feels waster on a cut. MK is ok though as its cheap but ran that for 3 months need to come off for a bit


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## swole troll

Lifesizepenguin said:


> what's good supp for pump @swole troll


 Lantus is the best thing for a pump.

This is second best imo

https://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/topic/321991-vascumax-stimumax-and-the-max-series-in-general-best-uk-supps/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=6084907&embedComment=6084907&embedDo=findComment#comment-6084907


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## swole troll

Lifesizepenguin said:


> :lol: not exactly what i meant....
> 
> GH is for a good bull cycle for me.
> 
> feels waster on a cut. MK is ok though as its cheap but ran that for 3 months need to come off for a bit


 I prefer it on a cut

Keeps me full which is one thing I hate about cutting

Going flat and weak


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## Lifesizepenguin

swole troll said:


> I prefer it on a cut
> 
> Keeps me full which is one thing I hate about cutting
> 
> Going flat and weak


 I cut on TRT and MK at most.

I get over the flatness and save the good stuff for a bulk.


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## ILLBehaviour

simonboyle said:


> Yes mate. Been using abiut 2 weeks. Full as fexk. Leaner. Strength creeping up


 How much beberine are you using and when you taking it ?


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## simonboyle

ILLBehaviour said:


> How much beberine are you using and when you taking it ?


 Now up to 900mg. Post workout with a shake.


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## capo

simonboyle said:


> Now up to 900mg. Post workout with a shake.


 Hi mate what's the reasoning for post workout ,I don't want to sound like a bro scientist but as training increases insulin sensitivity is this to get it to the max you can ?


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## simonboyle

capo said:


> Hi mate what's the reasoning for post workout ,I don't want to sound like a bro scientist but as training increases insulin sensitivity is this to get it to the max you can ?


 Convenient. Simple as that. Large amount of carbs too.


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## Big Ian

@swole troll that glycomax looks like an excellent ingredient profile! Thanks for that, may have to give it a shot, never heard of stromsports before!


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## swole troll

Big Ian said:


> @swole troll that glycomax looks like an excellent ingredient profile! Thanks for that, may have to give it a shot, never heard of stromsports before!


 Best supp line imo


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## Big Ian

swole troll said:


> Best supp line imo


 How do you dose the glycomax mate?


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## swole troll

Big Ian said:


> How do you dose the glycomax mate?


 its written on the tub:

5 caps with one 50g carb meal during off season / bulking

or

2 caps with 5 meals during contest prep / cutting


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## Big Ian

swole troll said:


> its written on the tub:
> 
> 5 caps with one 50g carb meal during off season / bulking
> 
> or
> 
> 2 caps with 5 meals during contest prep / cutting


 Wow! 2g of Berberine a day plus the other stuff when cutting advised! I get pretty constipated off 800mg/day, I'd probably not crap for a week on 2g!


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## Dr. O

+1 on the Berberine. Love the stuff.

I used to use metformin MR but it noticed it made me foggy throughout the day, no such issues with berberine. And it has the added bonus of cholesterol lowering.


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## Fadi

swole troll said:


> Metformin / aids in a pill


 Hey mate, I just saw your post, and I know for a fact that I can get your strength back up to speed in a flash. Yes words are cheap we all know that, so come with me and I'll show you what you've missed in your analysis of Metformin.

Did Metformin directly and swiftly rob you of your strength? Hell no!

Did Metformin indirectly and swiftly rob you of your strength? Hell yeh!

Now to the missing link we go ...

You go down to your local pharmacy/chemist (or your doctor), and you ask for some vitamin b12 injections, you know, the ones that sting a bit.

Done!

I thought of leaving it right there after the word "done" (because I've sincerely given you the missing link), however I thought I'd give you few more (hopefully) convincing reasons in order for you to lift this uncalled for guilty verdict you've assigned to the innocent party in this whole loss of strength scenario.

Sure, Metformin is notorious for screwing up your vitamin b12 levels/reserves, and if you knew that, you would have taken the necessary precautions, without having to go through some dark times aka, loss of hard earned strength gains.

Hey man, I don't like this jerk, how can I really screw his workouts? Simple mate, tell him to take Metformin, which is super for regulating his blood sugar levels, leading to a steady level of insulin, and some great assistant in managing fat loss. Only one thing mate, don't ever mention that cruel side effect that latches to this great blood sugar regulator ok, i.e. don't tell him that it would eat his vitamin b12 for breakfast, leaving him lethargic like there's no tomorrow.

OK, so why the negative side effects? Well, if you know that b12 is one of the prime B vitamins that helps your body use fat and carbohydrates for energy, in addition to having an effect on your nerves (you know, the ones attached to your muscles), then you can clearly understand how and why by injecting some b12 right back into your muscle fibers, your energy levels would literally bounce back to normal. Why wouldn't they, you've just supplied your body with the missing link, and not any missing link, but one that deals with turning the food you eat into energy.






Sure you can take b12 orally, but if you want your energy back pronto, I'd go the injection route. Please check with your doctor before you make your move, in case there's more to this than what wer're simply discussing here Champ.


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## swole troll

Fadi said:


> Hey mate, I just saw your post, and I know for a fact that I can get your strength back up to speed in a flash. Yes words are cheap we all know that, so come with me and I'll show you what you've missed in your analysis of Metformin.
> 
> Did Metformin directly and swiftly rob you of your strength? Hell no!
> 
> Did Metformin indirectly and swiftly rob you of your strength? Hell yeh!
> 
> Now to the missing link we go ...
> 
> You go down to your local pharmacy/chemist (or your doctor), and you ask for some vitamin b12 injections, you know, the ones that sting a bit.
> 
> Done!
> 
> I thought of leaving it right there after the word "done" (because I've sincerely given you the missing link), however I thought I'd give you few more (hopefully) convincing reasons in order for you to lift this uncalled for guilty verdict you've assigned to the innocent party in this whole loss of strength scenario.
> 
> Sure, Metformin is notorious for screwing up your vitamin b12 levels/reserves, and if you knew that, you would have taken the necessary precautions, without having to go through some dark times aka, loss of hard earned strength gains.
> 
> Hey man, I don't like this jerk, how can I really screw his workouts? Simple mate, tell him to take Metformin, which is super for regulating his blood sugar levels, leading to a steady level of insulin, and some great assistant in managing fat loss. Only one thing mate, don't ever mention that cruel side effect that latches to this great blood sugar regulator ok, i.e. don't tell him that it would eat his vitamin b12 for breakfast, leaving him lethargic like there's no tomorrow.
> 
> OK, so why the negative side effects? Well, if you know that b12 is one of the prime B vitamins that helps your body use fat and carbohydrates for energy, in addition to having an effect on your nerves (you know, the ones attached to your muscles), then you can clearly understand how and why by injecting some b12 right back into your muscle fibers, your energy levels would literally bounce back to normal. Why wouldn't they, you've just supplied your body with the missing link, and not any missing link, but one that deals with turning the food you eat into energy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure you can take b12 orally, but if you want your energy back pronto, I'd go the injection route. Please check with your doctor before you make your move, in case there's more to this than what were simply discussing here Champ.


 Thanks as always for the in depth reply fadi

I'll bear that in mind for future use

I've come off it now as I feel the cardio, caloric restriction and lack of bg raising compounds will have taken care of my blood glucose but should I use met again I'll be sure to include some b12


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## trainiac

I feel I should point out that if you are type 2 diabetic, metformin is a medicine meant to normalize your glucose release and absorption, as well as insulin sensitivity, so the results may not be the same as for a non-diabetic individual. If you have any doubts about your status as type 2 diabetic, or even pre-diabetic, you should get tests done. And yes, if you are low body fat or lean, you can still be diabetic.


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## swole troll

trainiac said:


> I feel I should point out that if you are type 2 diabetic, metformin is a medicine meant to normalize your glucose release and absorption, as well as insulin sensitivity, so the results may not be the same as for a non-diabetic individual. If you have any doubts about your status as type 2 diabetic, or even pre-diabetic, you should get tests done. And yes, if you are low body fat or lean, you can still be diabetic.


 You're right however it does lower glucose and increase insulin sensitivity even in those with fully functioning pancreas

Although now I prefer a solid otc gda as metformin does have a lot of downsides

Strom sports glycomax is my personal favorite (shameless unpaid, unsponsored plug, I just love this range of supps)


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## trainiac

swole troll said:


> You're right however it does lower glucose and increase insulin sensitivity even in those with fully functioning pancreas
> 
> Although now I prefer a solid otc gda as metformin does have a lot of downsides
> 
> Strom sports glycomax is my personal favorite (shameless unpaid, unsponsored plug, I just love this range of supps)


 Yes, of course. I agree and would say metformin is a good tool for normal people without a diabetic impairment.


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