# If progressive overload is key, then why do all the big guys use cable machines?



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

I've been told I should take out things like cable machines, seated rows, etc. and focus on the major lifts like bench press, squat, deadlift, etc. as the best way to gain muscle is by gaining strength via progressive overload, i.e. doing things like adding 1kg to the bar every session.

But then what is all the other stuff in the gym for? I see loads of big guys using cable machines, leg press, etc. Are none of these guys making gains from this? Surely if it didn't work eventually people would stop doing it?


----------



## hardgain (Nov 27, 2009)

One of the big old school guys at my gym once said to me it's not about the weight.. But go back 5-10 years an he used to throw the heavy stuff around. I think you need to, to get somewhere, once your there you have so many niggles an injuries you spend most your time maintaining and tweaking what you already have


----------



## Irondan (Nov 23, 2014)

Cables are good. The newbs and little guys use them exclusively, so they stay off the proper kit.

So for this i think they are great


----------



## Jon.B (Mar 8, 2011)

hardgain said:


> One of the big old school guys at my gym once said to me it's not about the weight.. But go back 5-10 years an he used to throw the heavy stuff around. I think you need to, to get somewhere, once your there you have so many niggles an injuries you spend most your time maintaining and tweaking what you already have


Agree with this - all the big lads i know used to move heavy weights on most exercises a few years ago then injury sets in and you have to back it off and try and maintain.


----------



## herb (Nov 1, 2014)

cables are easier on the joints


----------



## dannythinx (Oct 4, 2014)

It's impossible to keep adding weight or we would all be able to bench a car. Sometimes when you plateau on weight progression you got to mix things up. Hit the muscles in a different way. That means different exercises in a different order... It's just a way of making your body adapt buy building muscle without increasing weight. Also when you start doing a different exercise the weight you are on 8 weeks later is usually a lot more then the weight you started with so you are still upping the weight and forcing your body to adapt


----------



## zyphy (Jun 23, 2014)

dannythinx said:


> It's impossible to keep adding weight or we would all be able to bench a car.


literally lol'd at that haha


----------



## mrwright (Oct 22, 2013)

Tomahawk said:


> I've been told I should take out things like cable machines, seated rows, etc. and focus on the major lifts like bench press, squat, deadlift, etc. as the best way to gain muscle is by gaining strength via progressive overload, i.e. doing things like adding 1kg to the bar every session.
> 
> But then what is all the other stuff in the gym for? I see loads of big guys using cable machines, leg press, etc. Are none of these guys making gains from this? Surely if it didn't work eventually people would stop doing it?


you say it like yu cant add weight on ccables/machines


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

mrwright said:


> you say it like yu cant add weight on ccables/machines


Not with as fine resolution. If you're doing a lateral side raise on a cable machine moving from 4 plates to 5 plates is a 25% increase in one go.


----------



## Tom90 (Jan 29, 2010)

Tomahawk said:


> Not with as fine resolution. If you're doing a lateral side raise on a cable machine moving from 4 plates to 5 plates is a 25% increase in one go.


Progressive overload to me is either being able to increase weight or reps. I aim to beat my log book every session, by any means.

My first work set is 6-10 reps, as soon as I can hit 10 reps I'll add weight next time I train.


----------



## Prince Adam (Mar 17, 2012)

Cables on some lifts are far superior


----------



## AgoSte (Apr 14, 2015)

It's because the "you gain strength, you put on weight" is bullshit, although there is obviously a correlation between the two... But it's more a thing like: if you put on mass, you necessarily gain strength, but if you gain strength, not necessarily you put on mass.

I say this because I see this with my own experience.

You grow by damaging your muscles and letting your body repair the damages, stop, this is what science says.


----------



## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

Progressive overload isn't tied only to freeweights. However, I'd say put the big compounds at the beginning of the workout and aim for progressive overload on those first and foremost, then whatever you add in afterwards needn't be so strictly tied to progressive overload.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

You can and should use progressive overload on any exercise. It just means increasing the training volume over time by increasing the weight and or reps.

I don't use cables as I train at home, but I would probably use them for some things if I trained in a gym.


----------



## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

AgoSte said:


> It's because the "you gain strength, you put on weight" is bullshit, although there is obviously a correlation between the two... But it's more a thing like: if you put on mass, you necessarily gain strength, but if you gain strength, not necessarily you put on mass.
> 
> I say this because I see this with my own experience.
> 
> You grow by damaging your muscles and letting your body repair the damages, stop, this is what science says.


You're right in general, but progressive overload is certainly vital in continued progress. Growth is a stimulate-adapt-grow process; If you just focus on getting better at shifting weight and nothing else, you're not necessarily stimulating hypertrophy as it could be neural adaption and assistance from other muscles; Likewise, if you just focus on working the muscle but not making the workout harder over time, the muscle will adapt and stop growing. The idea is to work the muscle and stimulate a growth response with stress, which the muscle will adapt to by getting bigger and stronger; then you increase the stress (progressive overload) and force the muscle to adapt to it - it's already adapted to the stress of what you did before, so you need to increase that stress.


----------



## RobPianaLad (Nov 8, 2015)

> Progressive overload isn't tied only to freeweights. However, I'd say put the big compounds at the beginning of the workout and aim for progressive overload on those first and foremost, then whatever you add in afterwards needn't be so strictly tied to progressive overload.


Agreed, I think this tangents off a little.

What does progressive overload being the key (or not) have to do with method of lifting? It seems what you are actually asking is free weights vs cables?

As progressive overload is not exclusive to either cables or free w8s.

Rob


----------



## Pancake' (Aug 30, 2012)

Their a cherry on the cake exercise. a finisher, a bring up part of chest etc. they're not some well grounded mass builder exercise like an overhead press or deadlifts. you can't chisel a pebble, you wouldn't perform cable crossovers at 125lbs with no chest would you? no. People grow from high rep work & pumping the muscle, because they're still working the muscle, but their not recruiting slow twitch fibres, which are responsible for pure hypertrophy growth. it's like saying, we walk around and up and down stairs all day, why don't we all have massive calves? I mean, surely that's progressive overload, right?


----------



## barksie (Nov 23, 2014)

don't big ramy just use machines, think you will find he favors machines over free weights etc,

that may start some discussion , -------- taxi !!!!!


----------



## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

RobPianaLad said:


> Agreed, I think this tangents off a little.
> 
> What does progressive overload being the key (or not) have to do with method of lifting? It seems what you are actually asking is free weights vs cables?
> 
> ...


Exactly mate. No matter where the exercise is in the workout or what type of exercise it is, you can progress on it. You might not be able to increase in small enough increments on certain exercises to increase the weights on them regularly, but adding weight isn't the only form of overload. You can increase reps, cut down on rest between sets, add a set, add intensity techniques... then after a while when you run out of options, you should be able to jump up in weights by easing up elsewhere. Just gotta get creative and be smart.


----------



## RobPianaLad (Nov 8, 2015)

> Exactly mate. No matter where the exercise is in the workout or what type of exercise it is, you can progress on it. You might not be able to increase in small enough increments on certain exercises to increase the weights on them regularly, but adding weight isn't the only form of overload. You can increase reps, cut down on rest between sets, add a set, add intensity techniques... then after a while when you run out of options, you should be able to jump up in weights by easing up elsewhere. Just gotta get creative and be smart.


Wheyaye - bromance occurs...


----------



## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

RobPianaLad said:


> Wheyaye - bromance occurs...


****in love you buddy :wub:


----------



## toxyuk (Sep 8, 2015)

depends what your trying to do

build mass to a muscle group

or isolate a muscle thats lagging or chissle out a pyshic.


----------



## keeptrying (Mar 27, 2015)

I dont really understand how you cannot follow continual progression with cables and machines like the leg press? I myself follow continous progression principles, I struggle to believe that my legs wont be bigger when I have doubled my leg press weights, my gyms cable machines also go up to 100kg, im currently rowing and doing wide grip pulldowns at 60kg, surely we can all agree that growth will have happened when im doing the same reps at 100kg? I do agree with your point on the weight increases being rather large though, it probably depends on your gym, as mine has 2.5kg increments on the cable machines.


----------



## AgoSte (Apr 14, 2015)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> You're right in general, but progressive overload is certainly vital in continued progress. Growth is a stimulate-adapt-grow process; If you just focus on getting better at shifting weight and nothing else, you're not necessarily stimulating hypertrophy as it could be neural adaption and assistance from other muscles; Likewise, if you just focus on working the muscle but not making the workout harder over time, the muscle will adapt and stop growing. The idea is to work the muscle and stimulate a growth response with stress, which the muscle will adapt to by getting bigger and stronger; then you increase the stress (progressive overload) and force the muscle to adapt to it - it's already adapted to the stress of what you did before, so you need to increase that stress.


exactly, adding weight is just a wway, as it is do one more rep ore one more set to failure or set more intensely...

The fact is, if we consider sstrength as the 1RM sometimes it stays the same even if we add a rep to a certain weight and we do 10 instead of 9 with that weight and this is why we're not all equal and powerlifters can lift heavier 1RM, but sometimes they do less reps than a bodybuilder with a lower weight.

So, adding weight is not the ionly way to do it, another way is in fact change the TYPE of stress, for example changing exercise selection, rep scheme, using cables instead of free weight also to keep constant tension and others


----------



## toxyuk (Sep 8, 2015)

keeptrying said:


> I dont really understand how you cannot follow continual progression with cables and machines like the leg press? I myself follow continous progression principles, I struggle to believe that my legs wont be bigger when I have doubled my leg press weights, my gyms cable machines also go up to 100kg, im currently rowing and doing wide grip pulldowns at 60kg, surely we can all agree that growth will have happened when im doing the same reps at 100kg? I do agree with your point on the weight increases being rather large though, it probably depends on your gym, as mine has 2.5kg increments on the cable machines.


growth happens when you have exhausted your muscle fibers my motto dont leave the gym if to cant feel youve damaged them


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> It's because the "you gain strength, you put on weight" is bullshit, although there is obviously a correlation between the two... But it's more a thing like: if you put on mass, you necessarily gain strength, but if you gain strength, not necessarily you put on mass.
> 
> I say this because I see this with my own experience.
> 
> You grow by damaging your muscles and letting your body repair the damages, stop, this is what science says.


Where the confusion comes from is that for low reps (<5 say) a significant part of the adaptation to increasing strength is neurological, rather than muscle fibre growth. That's not to say it doesn't cause muscle fibre growth as well, but it's not all that's going on and so not optimal for pure size. The following discusses the issue well, and explains why lifting heavier weights in the 5-8 rep range absolutely does lead to increased mass:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/reps-per-set-for-optimal-growth.html

So whether "you gain strength, you put weight on" is bullshit or not depends what you mean by strength.

(Muscle fibre growth isn't the only adaptation that increases size either, but it's usually viewed as the most significant one, for natties at least.)


----------



## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> You're right in general, but progressive overload is certainly vital in continued progress. Growth is a stimulate-adapt-grow process; If you just focus on getting better at shifting weight and nothing else, you're not necessarily stimulating hypertrophy as it could be neural adaption and assistance from other muscles; Likewise, if you just focus on working the muscle but not making the workout harder over time, the muscle will adapt and stop growing. The idea is to work the muscle and stimulate a growth response with stress, which the muscle will adapt to by getting bigger and stronger; then you increase the stress (progressive overload) and force the muscle to adapt to it - it's already adapted to the stress of what you did before, so you need to increase that stress.


Definately! And I've manipulated this theory to include poor form as I'm then working every other muscle of that specific body part 

Well at least that's my excuse.......


----------



## toxyuk (Sep 8, 2015)

well strenght to me can only mean one thing to me person A lifts more than person B same exercise. person A is stronger . looking at power lifting or weight lifting champs its quite easy to come to a conclusion that muscle mass(quantity) is definately not related.


----------



## keeptrying (Mar 27, 2015)

> growth happens when you have exhausted your muscle fibers my motto dont leave the gym if to cant feel youve damaged them


I agree completely mate, I can guarantee from experience that lifting 60x10 when last week i did 57.5x10 achieves that lol


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> well strenght to me can only mean one thing to me person A lifts more than person B same exercise. person A is stronger . looking at power lifting or weight lifting champs its quite easy to come to a conclusion that muscle mass(quantity) is definately not related.


If person A can squat 100 kg for 8 reps and person B can squat 150 kg for 8 reps, who is stronger?


----------



## Test-e (Mar 26, 2014)

Ultrasonic said:


> If person A can squat 100 kg for 8 reps and person B can squat 150 kg for 8 reps, who is stronger?


Me, I can squat over 150 for 8. :lol:


----------



## toxyuk (Sep 8, 2015)

Ultrasonic said:


> If person A can squat 100 kg for 8 reps and person B can squat 150 kg for 8 reps, who is stronger?


person B at squating ? is strenght not to do with thickening fibers and mass with build new fibers ? from what i understand the reason bodybuilders lift heavy is because it creates a harder more vascular look. but you can easily stimulate muscle growth with high sets high rep low weight different exercise techniques.


----------



## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Stress the muscle and it'll grow, doesn't matter how.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

> person B at squating ? is strenght not to do with thickening fibers and mass with build new fibers ?


No. I believe pretty much no new fibres are created by training, regardless of the type of training.

Read the link I posted above to understand the neurological component of strength better. The other relavent difference is often described in terms of sarcoplasmic vs myofibrillar hypotrophy, discussed here:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/categories-of-weight-training-part-2.html

I would say more but I want to watch some TV and get to bed...


----------



## toxyuk (Sep 8, 2015)

i always thought the reason guys lift heavy in the gym is so they can get out sooner lols ))))

more force more workdone in less time hehe

its a good site bodyrecomp ))


----------



## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

> Definately! And I've manipulated this theory to include poor form as I'm then working every other muscle of that specific body part
> 
> Well at least that's my excuse.......


Arnold and Dorian used to adopt similar techniques :thumbup1: Arnold used to do very heavy cheat curls with ridiculous form at the start of his workouts and then go on to isolate them, and obviously he had some of the best arms anyone's ever seen... Dorian Yates used to start with machine curls to isolate the biceps, then he'd go on to heavy curls with the idea that if he cheated a little it wouldn't matter, since his biceps were already tired they'd still fail first anyway, and he believed that the heavier negatives helped him out.


----------



## 12 gauge (Jul 16, 2011)

Compound movements carry over to other activities, athletes of all types tend to concentrate on compounds in order to improve in their given sports, isolation movements can be good for rehab as far as athletes are concerned but when it comes to functional carryover compounds are the way to go.

Bodybuilding on the other hand is not concerned with functionality, its objective is purely aesthetic, it has been described by some as a performance art rather than a sport and I tend to agree.


----------



## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

> exactly, adding weight is just a wway, as it is do one more rep ore one more set to failure or set more intensely...
> 
> The fact is, if we consider sstrength as the 1RM sometimes it stays the same even if we add a rep to a certain weight and we do 10 instead of 9 with that weight and this is why we're not all equal and powerlifters can lift heavier 1RM, but sometimes they do less reps than a bodybuilder with a lower weight.
> 
> So, adding weight is not the ionly way to do it, *another way is in fact change the TYPE of stress, for example changing exercise selection, rep scheme, using cables instead of free weight also to keep constant tension and others*


All spot on, but this part in bold falls under the whole "muscle confusion" theory though mate, which I don't think I need to explain why is a silly idea and has been long debunked by science and research. The muscles aren't made of brain matter, they have no cognitive ability, all they know is the amount of workload on them was either harder on them than last time or it wasn't. That's not to say that one exercise or training style won't work better for you than another due to your biomechanics, individual response and so on, but changing the type of stress doesn't mean more stress on the muscle to force an adaptive response to greater deal with that level of stress next time.


----------



## AgoSte (Apr 14, 2015)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> All spot on, but this part in bold falls under the whole "muscle confusion" theory though mate, which I don't think I need to explain why is a silly idea and has been long debunked by science and research. The muscles aren't made of brain matter, they have no cognitive ability, all they know is the amount of workload on them was either harder on them than last time or it wasn't. That's not to say that one exercise or training style won't work better for you than another due to your biomechanics, individual response and so on, but changing the type of stress doesn't mean more stress on the muscle to force an adaptive response to greater deal with that level of stress next time.


yes of course, I'm not for the "muscle confusion" thing.

BTW the muscle is divided in different types of fibers, and targetting all of them with different rep schemes works.


----------



## nWo (Mar 25, 2014)

> yes of course, I'm not for the "muscle confusion" thing.
> 
> BTW the muscle is divided in different types of fibers, and targetting all of them with different rep schemes works.


Yeah absolutely mate, not disputing that at all  Just pointing out for people reading, that changing things up won't keep you growing when the overall workload isn't any greater than what you've done previously. Of course as well, you could train in a heavyish range and tack on some dropsets, partials or anything else that creates more TUT after failure and you'll have stimulated the different types of fibres


----------



## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

The reason many big guys train with cables and do 'fluffy' exercises is often because they have realized that they need to not just think about loading to keep progressing, and they realize the value of other ways to be progressive.

Progressive overload is a great way to build mass gradually over time, and following progressive overload in the low rep range also causes strength to increase via neural adaptation - and that's the thing, strength is just as much/maybe more a function of neural adaptation than it is of pure muscle mass, and in fact a recent study showed that the actual structural strength of muscle fibers themselves decreases relative to the size of the muscle as the muscle gets bigger.

What that means in simple terms is that say a muscle has a volume of 25cm² and has 100 arbitrary units of potential maximum strength, if you double it's mass to 50cm² it's maximal strength will definitely be less than 200 arbitrary units. It's strength will be higher than 100units but will not double as it's size has.

When lifting heavy you certainly do train a muscle to use more and more of it's maximal strength potential as it grows, but while it's overall potential increases with mass it doesn't increase as fast as mass increases, thus leading to an inevitable point where things gradually grid to a crawl and then a halt if all you do is focus on gaining mass via strength training with heavy loads alone.

So, when new to lifting you might only have the neuromuscular control to exert maybe 30% of a muscles maximal potential strength, but already after just a few months you will probably be up to 60 or 70% of maximal potential. Then as you progress strength increases more slowly, and it takes dedicated training to get stronger. At that point neuromuscular strength-efficiency and mass increase at a similar rate with heavy lifting until you hit the point where neuromuscular potential is topped out. At this point if all you are doing is focusing on progressive overload to be progressive you won't achieve anything much more at all because you simply don't have any room left to progressively increase strength, and therefore be progressive enough to also build mass, at that intensity level. To grow further you have to move to being progressive in a way that doesn't depend upon strength increase as the main driver - you have to look at increasing volume, either reps per set or number of sets, or even other things like increasing rep speed (power) or reducing rest between sets.

The thing is though that, going back to what progressive overload actually is, it's a fallacy to assume you can only follow progressive overload with low reps and heavy weights. You can do it with moderate loads and higher reps too, and if hypertrophy is the main goal there is more and more evidence emerging suggesting that being more slowly progressive at a moderate load actually leads to more muscle gain over time than solely being progressive with very heavy loads.

You can of course train in different ways concurrently, focusing on adding weight and progressive overload whilst also being progressive with training volume, cycling the two approaches so as to get the best of both worlds from early on. Arguably this is the way to go to maximize dem gainz when looked at for a long period of time.

Progressive overload is important but the key word is 'progressive' not 'overload'. You have to be long term progressive to keep gaining, but not necessarily always by increasing just maximal strength.


----------



## Verno (Apr 18, 2008)

I'mNotAPervert! said:


> Arnold and Dorian used to adopt similar techniques :thumbup1: Arnold used to do very heavy cheat curls with ridiculous form at the start of his workouts and then go on to isolate them, and obviously he had some of the best arms anyone's ever seen... Dorian Yates used to start with machine curls to isolate the biceps, then he'd go on to heavy curls with the idea that if he cheated a little it wouldn't matter, since his biceps were already tired they'd still fail first anyway, and he believed that the heavier negatives helped him out.


See!!

I knew I was doing something right


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Smitch said:


> Stress the muscle and it'll grow, doesn't matter how.


No. I lifted for years, always pushing every exercise to failure, and got nowhere. There is more to it than that.


----------



## Snorbitz1uk (Sep 21, 2005)

I think for some movementscables are better, better tension on the muscles and its tensoin that builds muscles not heavy weight.


----------



## DLTBB (Jan 26, 2015)

I try to get a mix of progressive overload and pump training. When I'm bulking I will put more emphasis on adding weight and/or reps each week. I don't know exactly how beneficial pump training is for growth but I enjoy training like that and what's the point in working out and following a routine you don't enjoy?

But remember, Frank Zane said your muscles have no idea how heavy the weight you're isn't actually is, they just know how heavy it feels. Some of my best sessions have been using a lighter weight with full ROM and just squeezing the s**t out of every rep and stretching like mad at the bottom.


----------



## Jamieson (Jul 11, 2014)

Tomahawk said:


> I've been told I should take out things like cable machines, seated rows, etc. and focus on the major lifts like bench press, squat, deadlift, etc. as the best way to gain muscle is by gaining strength via progressive overload, i.e. doing things like adding 1kg to the bar every session.
> 
> But then what is all the other stuff in the gym for? I see loads of big guys using cable machines, leg press, etc. Are none of these guys making gains from this? Surely if it didn't work eventually people would stop doing it?


The equipment you have is irrelevant, its what you do with it that counts. Most exercise machines were designed primarily to make money, not improve the efficiency or efficacy of an exercise.

Apart from some of the older Nautilus and first gen Hammer machines, the only really good ones are probably MedX or the ReGen ones and they were designed for medical rehab initially.

Having a mixture of machines and free weights is nice as it adds variety and machines do make training on our own safer as you can't get stuck under a heavy bar.

Having said all that, making progress comes down to simply 'progressing' in weights and or reps and intensity. Intensity and TUL trump load but only to a certain degree, keep getting stronger and you will get bigger as long as the total TUL is not too long.


----------



## Jamieson (Jul 11, 2014)

Tomahawk said:


> I've been told I should take out things like cable machines, seated rows, etc. and focus on the major lifts like bench press, squat, deadlift, etc. as the best way to gain muscle is by gaining strength via progressive overload, i.e. doing things like adding 1kg to the bar every session.
> 
> But then what is all the other stuff in the gym for? I see loads of big guys using cable machines, leg press, etc. Are none of these guys making gains from this? Surely if it didn't work eventually people would stop doing it?


The equipment you have is irrelevant, its what you do with it that counts. Most exercise machines were designed primarily to make money, not improve the efficiency or efficacy of an exercise.

Apart from some of the older Nautilus and first gen Hammer machines, the only really good ones are probably MedX or the ReGen ones and they were designed for medical rehab initially.

Having a mixture of machines and free weights is nice as it adds variety and machines do make training on our own safer as you can't get stuck under a heavy bar.

Having said all that, making progress comes down to simply 'progressing' in weights and or reps and intensity. Intensity and TUL trump load but only to a certain degree, keep getting stronger and you will get bigger as long as the total TUL is not too long.


----------



## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

Really don't understand some guys aversion to cable machines. They are crucial (in my view) to weigh training. Look at lat pulls, most straight forward way to built lats and you can start on 10kg if you want. Some machines target specific muscles better than free weights.

Also machines allow for supersets and drop sets easier and faster (in some instances). No pissing around stripping plates or lining up rows of dumbells

Although I would never favour a chest press machine over a bench


----------



## nathanlowe (Jan 8, 2008)

How does weight and volume fit into all of this? I am aiming to increase the weight or reps each session so would say that I have progressed each session. However lets say:

Week X - Bench Press 60kg x 8, 8, 8 = Total volume of 1,440kg pushed

Week X + 1 - Bench Press 65kg x 7, 6 ,5 = Total volume of 1,105kg push

The weight here has increased, but the total volume has actually decreased. What is the understanding/rationale behind this? Short term loss in X + 1 for a further gain in X + 2 when its 65 x 8, 8, 8?


----------



## Info Junkie (Nov 22, 2013)

Although peolpe say low reps heavy weight is more neurological than muscle but when you look at powerlifter who in reality only progress in weights as reps always same there muscle density IMO is far better than that of someone who trains for reps IMO ,

i have no studies to bak up my bullshit but when look at dan green when he is lean the thickness and density i only see in heavy lifters , Dorian Levrone Ronnie power lifters etc .

again I am mostly wrong I know that it's just from what I have seening


----------



## barksie (Nov 23, 2014)

> No. I lifted for years, always pushing every exercise to failure, and got nowhere. There is more to it than that.


kinell , everything you read says opposite



> I try to get a mix of progressive overload and pump training. When I'm bulking I will put more emphasis on adding weight and/or reps each week. I don't know exactly how beneficial pump training is for growth but I enjoy training like that and what's the point in working out and following a routine you don't enjoy?
> 
> But remember, Frank Zane said your muscles have no idea how heavy the weight you're isn't actually is, they just know how heavy it feels. Some of my best sessions have been using a lighter weight with full ROM and just squeezing the s**t out of every rep and stretching like mad at the bottom.


 what i do, squeeze the [email protected] out of every rep and seems good to me


----------



## andyboro (Oct 1, 2006)

Who said that progressive overload had to equate to more weight on a barbell?

you want to overload the muscle and there are many ways to do that.


----------



## Ultrasonic (Jul 13, 2004)

nathanlowe said:


> How does weight and volume fit into all of this? I am aiming to increase the weight or reps each session so would say that I have progressed each session. However lets say:
> 
> Week X - Bench Press 60kg x 8, 8, 8 = Total volume of 1,440kg pushed
> 
> ...


Basically yes. It is long term volume progression that you want, not necessarily workout to workout.


----------



## 2004mark (Oct 26, 2013)

andyboro said:


> Who said that progressive overload had to equate to more weight on a barbell?
> 
> you want to overload the muscle and there are many ways to do that.


So true.

If you take someone who can bench 120kg for 10... it's perfectly possible to adapt their technique, cadence to get them to fail on 90kg in under 10 reps. This is without even taking into consideration things like pre-exhaustion, static holds, rest pause, less rest between sets, TuT... the list goes on and on.


----------



## Myprotein offers (Oct 21, 2015)

My suggestion would be to use cables, machines and free weights together. They all have their advantages and I have had great success using all of the different equipment.

You'll catch all the top pro bodybuilders using lots of different equipment


----------



## Smitch (Dec 29, 2008)

Tomahawk said:


> No. I lifted for years, always pushing every exercise to failure, and got nowhere. There is more to it than that.


Well I've done both and both work for me.

Form is form, my muscles don't know what it is I'm doing to stress them, they just react to how I do it.

And is that you in your avi? If it is it looks like you're doing something right.


----------



## Tomahawk (Dec 24, 2014)

Smitch said:


> Well I've done both and both work for me.
> 
> Form is form, my muscles don't know what it is I'm doing to stress them, they just react to how I do it.
> 
> And is that you in your avi? If it is it looks like you're doing something right.


Yeah that's me. I can get lean but haven't made decent gains in a while. Trying to figure out where I'm going wrong.


----------



## Jordan08 (Feb 17, 2014)

Progressive overload(If you are referring to adding more weights to the bar) is not the key. Hit the weight between 60%-80% of your rep max and you should grow by bringing in other variables like reps/exercise orders/angle variations/exercise variations provided you know how to play with the diet.


----------

