# 6 months natty progress, what am I doing wrong?



## Sway12

sss


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## funkdocta

Sway12 said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> So I've been lifting obsessively and consistently for 6 months now and I'm bitterly disappointed with the results.
> 
> Here is me in October last year. Never touched a weight in my life, very unfit: -
> 
> 
> 
> I decided I wanted to cut fat first, so I did that. Here's me in January: -
> 
> 
> 
> Now here's me today after 'bulking' for 3 and a half months...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do I have the worst genetics ever?
> 
> 
> 
> I look wider
> 
> 
> 
> My shoulders have got broader and developed a bit...
> 
> 
> 
> but overall...
> 
> Dont even look like Ive ever been to the gym, chest hasnt changed for ****....
> 
> Should I just give up???


In all honesty... Seems like your not eating right and not training hard enough in the gym. Your first cutting pic just looks like you had a shave. That being said there is some improvement, its a long long road you cant expect it over night.

How old are you and whats your diet and training like?


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## 1010AD

^^^ good advice

9 times out of 10 it's down to diet mate


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## Trevor McDonald

Your traps and shoulders have definitely got bigger. But be realistic also, it's only been 6months. Post up your workout plan and diet and I'm sure the guys here will give you guidance. I personally would concentrate getting the big 3 up strength wise. Deadlift Squat and Bench.


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## saxondale

Its diet mate.


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## TELBOR

Never give up mate and it's 90% diet this game :thumbup:


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## Sway12

Thanks all. Ive definitely been in surplus recently

... My diet is not clean at all though really. Its not terrible but I was told that cals in vs cals out trumps macros etc...

Thing is I chalk the lack of progress up to lack of volume. But also I have pretty bad anxiety and cortisol inhibits testosterone... I reckon there's something to it..


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## MusclesBound

Post up your diet.


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## Chunkee

I feel your pain mate, i've been training for over 2 years now and have barely changed in that time but got more serious recently with diet and training and i'm feeling better for it already. Be consistent with your training, track your workouts and aim to beat them the following week whether it be a weight increase or more reps. Eat as well as your lifestyle allows (i've cut out sugary foods which seem to be helping) and make sure your roughly hitting the same calories each day.


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## Sway12

Here's what I ate yesterday


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## saxondale

Sway12 said:


> Here's what I ate yesterday


Looks like a typical teanagers diet


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## billy boy swole

is that you luf?


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## Sway12

saxondale said:


> Looks like a typical teanagers diet


Still got 3k cals in and my bodyweight in protein though.


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## Sway12

billy boy swole said:


> is that you luf?


what


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## simonthepieman

watch this and all of them in the series.

A lot of times


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## KingofHearts

Sway12 said:


> Here's what I ate yesterday


You genuinely need to look at what you're eating and ask yourself, "Is this a quality product?"

As somebody has said above, your diet is that of a teenager - probably an 18 year old stoner!

Can you post an average week for your training plan and elaborate on your diet - is that an average day, a good day or a bad day of you bumming around on the sofa and smoking weed?

Edit - I'm not trying to mug it, don't take offence!

3000kcals is enough for you to gain weight, as you have been. But because the food your eating is of such low quality you're not gaining the results you want and you're not eating enough meat!


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## saxondale

Sway12 said:


> Still got 3k cals in and my bodyweight in protein though.


3K calories of crap though, pizza and fizzy pop ffs!


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## Sway12

KingofHearts said:


> You genuinely need to look at what you're eating and ask yourself, "Is this a quality product?"
> 
> As somebody has said above, your diet is that of a teenager - probably an 18 year old stoner!
> 
> Can you post an average week for your training plan and elaborate on your diet - is that an average day, a good day or a bad day of you bumming around on the sofa and smoking weed?


I just do ICF 5x5 3 days a week.

Just lol @ your response. That's not a good day. I would never normally eat pizza for dinner but I was short on calories by about 700. What am I going to get that from? Chicken rice and broccoli? Doubtful....

Normally I have a shake for breakfast: -

2 scoops whey

2 tablespoons PB

500ml milk

1 tablespoon honey

1 tablespoon olive oil

2 scoops oats

1 tablespoon cocoa powder for taste

1 banana

From there I will train. After I get home, usually tinned mackerel as its high in cals and couscous or rice.

From there potentially one more shake

Dinner

Greek yoghurt

Milk

Bed.


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## Sway12

saxondale said:


> 3K calories of crap though, pizza and fizzy pop ffs!


Fizzy pop? What planet are you on? 1 bottle of lucozade straight after the gym and a glass of orange juice with breakfast? are you blind mate?


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## saxondale

Forget the calories, concentrate on macros


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## saxondale

Sway12 said:


> Fizzy pop? What planet are you on? 1 bottle of lucozade straight after the gym and a glass of orange juice with breakfast? are you blind mate?


No mate, and im also not moaning my diet isnt working, fizzy sugary pop is not the drink of champions


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## Sway12

saxondale said:


> No mate, and im also not moaning my diet isnt working, fizzy sugary pop is not the drink of champions


But what are you referring to? The lucozade? Lol, surely one after the gym is acceptable? It's full of simple sugars which is what we need staight after??....

Is everyone saying that I essentially need to eat bro foods? Like the typical chicken rice and broccoli 4x a day to see better gains?


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## KingofHearts

Sway12 said:


> I just do ICF 5x5 3 days a week.
> 
> Just lol @ your response. That's not a good day. I would never normally eat pizza for dinner but I was short on calories by about 700. What am I going to get that from? Chicken rice and broccoli? Doubtful....
> 
> Normally I have a shake for breakfast: -
> 
> 2 scoops whey
> 
> 2 tablespoons PB
> 
> 500ml milk
> 
> 1 tablespoon honey
> 
> 1 tablespoon olive oil
> 
> 2 scoops oats
> 
> 1 tablespoon cocoa powder for taste
> 
> 1 banana
> 
> From there I will train. After I get home, usually tinned mackerel as its high in cals and couscous or rice.
> 
> From there potentially one more shake
> 
> Dinner
> 
> Greek yoghurt
> 
> Milk
> 
> Bed.


Ok, a lot of people have shakes for breakfast - it's usually a supplement but if you want to have that instead of eating so be it.

So lunch is a tin of mackerel and rice/couscous - it's in the right direction, but you'll quickly get bored eating it and relapse into eating tesco's "finest". Plus as for your portion size, a single tin of mackerel isn't going to fuel the growth you want.

What was dinner?

Why the milk and yoghurt before bed?


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## Sway12

KingofHearts said:


> Ok, a lot of people have shakes for breakfast - it's usually a supplement but if you want to have that instead of eating so be it.
> 
> So lunch is a tin of mackerel and rice/couscous - it's in the right direction, but you'll quickly get bored eating it and relapse into eating tesco's "finest". Plus as for your portion size, a single tin of mackerel isn't going to fuel the growth you want.
> 
> What was dinner?
> 
> Why the milk and yoghurt before bed?


It differs, not always a shake, could also be omelette with veg etc. Not that it makes much difference.

I have a single tin post workout because I have no appetite post workout.

Milk and yoghurt before bed because otherwise I won't be anywhere near 3k cals.. I need to get the cals in from somewhere. Plus greek yoghurt is good protein and so is milk.


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## SK50

IMO (you've heard this from me before):

Stop taking photos and concentrate on improving your poundages in the fundamental lifts. As a beginner, let that be your guide to progress.


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## SK50

Sway12 said:


> Here's what I ate yesterday


3000kcal is way, way too much, man.... The problem is you can't see the muscle gains because you're gaining fat as well.

I am 200lbs solid 10% and gaining on 3300kcal with 50mcg T3 on top


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## Sway12

SK50 said:


> 3000kcal is way, way too much, man.... The problem is you can't see the muscle gains because you're gaining fat as well.
> 
> I am 200lbs solid 10% and gaining on 3300kcal with 50mcg T3 on top


Seriously?? that seems crazy.

I just took it from here: -



Put in that I'm 6'1, activity level - exercise 4 times a week.

And yes mate my body fat is quite high... I really dont know what to estimate. 20% roughly? It's all concentrated around the gut.


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## KingofHearts

Sway12 said:


> It differs, not always a shake, could also be omelette with veg etc. Not that it makes much difference.
> 
> Ok cool, it's good that you're not eating the same thing every day - can get pretty boring! (Saying that I've eaten porridge 5/6 days a week for the last 5 years... love that ****!) Personally I find that I get a lot more of a response from eating solid food over drinking protein shakes. Not saying they do nothing, but I've ditched them a while ago (because of cost) and it hasn't impeded my progress. My suggestion, have a breakfast of actual food instead of the shake and have the shake as a snack between meals.
> 
> I have a single tin post workout because I have no appetite post workout.
> 
> This is and will continue to be a big sticking point for you - if you don't eat you don't grow.. simple. Try and force yourself to eat things you can eat and enjoy, start with small portions, make them bigger and then make them better food for your goals.
> 
> Milk and yoghurt before bed because otherwise I won't be anywhere near 3k cals.. I need to get the cals in from somewhere. Plus greek yoghurt is good protein and so is milk.
> 
> Yeah ok, fair enough. Again as before, I'd suggest you try and get a small meal in instead of the milk, again that's something that could be drunk between meals.


Post up your training schedule for an average week. I'm sure this is a simple fix of over eating rubbish and under eating the nutritional stuff + a training program that isn't focusing on what you need.


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## aad123

simonthepieman said:


> watch this and all of them in the series.
> 
> A lot of times


Just watched the first episode and it was interesting how he used different figures for cutting and bulking. A lot of people go for the +500 or -500 but the way he explained made sense. I will watch the rest later.


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## SK50

Sway12 said:


> Seriously?? that seems crazy.
> 
> I just took it from here: -
> 
> 
> 
> Put in that I'm 6'1, activity level - exercise 4 times a week.
> 
> And yes mate my body fat is quite high... I really dont know what to estimate. 20% roughly? It's all concentrated around the gut.


I think your level of bodyfat is depressing you somewhat... my advice would be lower the calories to a recomp level where you are gaining strength/muscle and slowly losing fat

I strongly disagree with anyone telling you to 'bulk'. But that is just IMO, of course.

The problem with that calculator is the 'aggressive' setting you're using. If you're not using AAS you only need a couple hundred calories per day over maintenance to maximise muscle gain while staying lean.

I would run with around 2500

Have your lifts improved? Bench, squat?


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## bail

Get a online coach bud well worth it

I recommend @big_jim_87


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## Sway12

SK50 said:


> I think your level of bodyfat is depressing you somewhat... my advice would be lower the calories to a recomp level where you are gaining strength/muscle and slowly losing fat
> 
> I strongly disagree with anyone telling you to 'bulk'. But that is just IMO, of course.
> 
> The problem with that calculator is the 'aggressive' setting you're using. If you're not using AAS you only need a couple hundred calories per day over maintenance to maximise muscle gain while staying lean.
> 
> I would run with around 2500
> 
> Have your lifts improved? Bench, squat?


Thanks alot.

Both lifts improving slowly but still pretty low. Squat 100kg, bench 60kg. I can close grip 50kg though strangely.


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## Sway12

bail said:


> Get a online coach bud well worth it
> 
> I recommend @big_jim_87


pretty skint atm mate but thanks for the suggestion


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## saxondale

Sway12 said:


> Thanks alot.
> 
> Both lifts improving slowly but still pretty low. Squat 100kg, bench 60kg. I can close grip 50kg though strangely.


I can always close grip more, odd isnt it, whats your deadlift like?


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## SK50

Sway12 said:


> Thanks alot.
> 
> Both lifts improving slowly but still pretty low. Squat 100kg, bench 60kg. I can close grip 50kg though strangely.


OK, using bench as an example:

Bench should be much higher than 60kg after 6 months, even with very poor genetics. Especially with 3000kcal being thrown at it.

I'm not sure what routine you're doing at the moment, but I suspect that the training programming is at fault.

Trust me, if you could bench 100kg you'd be guaranteed to have a basic, but decent set of pecs and upper body development (under the fat).


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## SK50

bail said:


> Get a online coach bud well worth it
> 
> I recommend @big_jim_87


I think this is a very good way forward.

With an experienced guy watching over you, you would stick to the plan and get the job done.

You sound like you're putting the effort in - you just need some direction.

Nothing is wrong with your genetics.


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## bail

Sway12 said:


> pretty skint atm mate but thanks for the suggestion


He's not expensive but fair enough to know how you feel bud,

In regards to your progress what's hour split like (sorry if you posted it)

Now your diet just looked at what you logged and ate

It's tbh crap mate I would call a diet like that my day off TBh

First of all your daily diet should have nothing processed in their,

Clean it all for example

Meal 1 5 whole eggs, 60 gram oats

Meal 2 150 gram chicken basmati rice, veg

Etc etc


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## DaveW3000

OP's on the ICF 5x5 which is a pretty solid proven routine.

OP how long you bin on the routine? While eating enough you can make fast progress on that routine.


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## ConP

Training intensity and design will be the issue.

99% of people never train hard enough and unless you come from a high level sports background chances are you don't train hard enough.

Get some PT sessions from a top level bodybuilder/athlete with a good reputation and then realize what hard work truly means.


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## Sway12

SK50 said:


> OK, using bench as an example:
> 
> Bench should be much higher than 60kg after 6 months, even with very poor genetics. Especially with 3000kcal being thrown at it.
> 
> I'm not sure what routine you're doing at the moment, but I suspect that the training programming is at fault.
> 
> Trust me, if you could bench 100kg you'd be guaranteed to have a basic, but decent set of pecs and upper body development (under the fat).


Yeah I mean 60kg is very weak. I could barely do 30 for reps when I started.

I dont know if its of any importance but before March I had never actually done bench press before consistently... I would do it once every few weeks but mainly just did incline dumbell pressing. I'm up to 26kg in each hand with that, difficult for reps though.

I just find bench really hard. I dont have much strength in that position, really struggle with 60kg even tbh...

Like I say, I've messed about changing routine loads up until recently, but since April I've been doing this routine: -

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout


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## DaveW3000

Issues with bench are often down to form. Have you learnt how to bench properly?


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## Sway12

DaveW3000 said:


> edited


in response yeh ive been messing around, i havent stuck to a routine for long at all, ICF only since april...


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## SK50

Sway12 said:


> Yeah I mean 60kg is very weak. I could barely do 30 for reps when I started.
> 
> I dont know if its of any importance but before March I had never actually done bench press before consistently... I would do it once every few weeks but mainly just did incline dumbell pressing. I'm up to 26kg in each hand with that, difficult for reps though.
> 
> I just find bench really hard. I dont have much strength in that position, really struggle with 60kg even tbh...
> 
> Like I say, I've messed about changing routine loads up until recently, but since April I've been doing this routine: -
> 
> http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout


You don't necessarily have to bench at all, but as well as an excellent upper body movement it is also an excellent way to measure progress.

That routine isn't my cup of tea but it is absolutely fine.

Any well designed routine will work, but it has to suit you psychologically - you have to enjoy it and believe in it. If you like that routine stick to it and do not deviate from it for at least another 6 months. Bust your balls in the gym - if your lifts have gone up you will have more muscle.


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## night06

tbh you look like u eat alot of junk.. no offense but u are kinda chubby, train hard - lift heavy and eat clean.

Dont expect too much, as natural athlete it takes time to make progress. so dont give up, work on your diet and get your training in check do you really push yourself enough in your workouts? do you break limits? be honest and dont cheat yourself..

im 100% sure you are not pushing yourself enough, it takes time to learn this...

however id not go for a "bulk" u shouldnt even take the word bulk in your mouth tbh, learn the basics first and get stronger. while you doing so id advice you to stay in caloric deficit, u as a beginner will still build up muscle, and on top of that u will cut some fat off..


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## SK50

ConP said:


> Training intensity and design will be the issue.
> 
> 99% of people never train hard enough and unless you come from a high level sports background chances are you don't train hard enough.
> 
> Get some PT sessions from a top level bodybuilder/athlete with a good reputation and then realize what hard work truly means.


Very much agree. Unfortunately this appears to be another hard truth, I am afraid Sway12

If the lifts are not flying up as a beginner, something is most likely wrong with the training intensity


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## Sway12

SK50 said:


> Very much agree. Unfortunately this appears to be another hard truth, I am afraid Sway12
> 
> If the lifts are not flying up as a beginner, something is most likely wrong with the training intensity


I dunno what to say tbh. I really feel as if I can do no more... I find I dont have that much energy in the gym and like I say, I have bad anxiety so this also might affect my overall strength and hormonal balance. Do you think there might be something to it?

I'm considering cutting tbh.


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## DaveW3000

SK50 said:


> Very much agree. Unfortunately this appears to be another hard truth, I am afraid Sway12
> 
> If the lifts are not flying up as a beginner, something is most likely wrong with the training intensity


I'd be inclined to agree however i've had experience with his routine and if followed correctly you will make solid progress in strength and therefore muscle.

Obviously if hes not following it to the letter then it wont give maximal results.


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## aad123

I've just read through this and I have to say that your lack of progress is a result of your poor food choices. I don't agree with just eating foods to fit into a certain target. If you only have a limited amount of food to eat each day you need to try and make an effort to ensure that your food choices offer the best nutrition. It may be worth you designing a diet based around 8 to 10 meals you enjoy that fit into a certain macro split and calorie count. By doing this you can just pick 5 of these meals each day and you will be sure you are hitting your targets every day. Also pre-cook a few days worth of food at a time so you don't have to grab a pizza to hit your targets. If your fridge is full of healthy ready cooked meals you are less likely to snack on rubbish. Remember a calorie is not just a calorie.


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## DaveW3000

Sway12 said:


> I dunno what to say tbh. I really feel as if I can do no more... I find I dont have that much energy in the gym and like I say, I have bad anxiety so this also might affect my overall strength and hormonal balance. Do you think there might be something to it?
> 
> I'm considering cutting tbh.


You could cut and run the cutting version but I do think with some changes in cals/ diet you may get on well with a recomp.


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## aad123

Sway12 said:


> I dunno what to say tbh. I really feel as if I can do no more... *I find I dont have that much energy in the gym* and like I say, I have bad anxiety so this also might affect my overall strength and hormonal balance. Do you think there might be something to it?
> 
> I'm considering cutting tbh.


Pizza and pork pie are not exactly super foods to fuel an intense workout.


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## saxondale

Sway12 said:


> I dunno what to say tbh. I really feel as if I can do no more... I find I dont have that much energy in the gym and like I say, I have bad anxiety so this also might affect my overall strength and hormonal balance. Do you think there might be something to it?
> 
> I'm considering cutting tbh.


Thats just an excuse.

Loose the weight first (your not in shape to cut) then train your heart out for a year, come back and let us know then if you still dont have the energy for the gym, if you dont get to a stage where all you think about is "can I get to the gym now for an hour" your not really makingnthe effort

Its bloody hard work mate


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## SK50

Sway12 said:


> I dunno what to say tbh. I really feel as if I can do no more... I find I dont have that much energy in the gym and like I say, I have bad anxiety so this also might affect my overall strength and hormonal balance. Do you think there might be something to it?
> 
> I'm considering cutting tbh.


Anxiety is not related. I have bad anxiety too (years of prescribed anti-D's, valium, propranolol, you name it...) - not related

Learning to train balls to the wall is not something that comes naturally to some, but it can be learned. I hope you don't take that the wrong way.

Guidance from a good trainer in person could very well be what you need

@ConP is a far more accomplished man than I, listen to him


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## lazy

You won't see much visual progress until you loose the puppy fat.

As others have said, eat clean (chicken or steak, rice, broccoli.... repeat) and have one day off a week where you eat what you like.

Do that for 3 months then post another photo, you may be pleasantly surprised 

Oh and don't forget leg day


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## night06

and plz stop playing the genetic excuse card...

your stats are horrible and your diet is miles away from clean but ye its the genetic sure...

as i said before go for a cut, you as a beginner will lose fat and build up muscle at the same time.


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## lazy

boxer939 said:


> You have just answered your own questions. A lucozade for breakfast? Are you kidding me


Exactly...

A good breakfast would be: Oats, water, fresh blueberries and maybe some honey. And then throw in a protein shake as well.


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## saxondale

He listed all his intake as one meal guys


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## Sway12

just to explain the diet i posted up is not a normal day by my standards. I would usually fit in a dinner and lunch consisting of healthy macros and a good balance at that. Steak, rice and veg is a staple.

Having said that, I still do fit in stuff like lucozade because there is nothing wrong with that post workout, sorry but thats just the case. Simple sugars post workout are beneficial...

But learn to read - clearly I did not fit in ALL that food into breakfast, I just throw it all in MFP that way because it's much faster than splitting it for conveniences sake.

Breakfast that day for example was a shake that i listed on a previous page and it had all the necessary ingredients to get through a workout.


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## Sway12

night06 said:


> and plz stop playing the genetic excuse card...
> 
> your stats are horrible and your diet is miles away from clean but ye its the genetic sure...
> 
> as i said before go for a cut, you as a beginner will lose fat and build up muscle at the same time.


You are seriously suggesting that I could build muscle mass on a cut?


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## saxondale

Sway12 said:


> just to explain the diet i posted up is not a normal day by my standards. I would usually fit in a dinner and lunch consisting of healthy macros and a good balance at that. Steak, rice and veg is a staple.
> 
> Having said that, I still do fit in stuff like lucozade because there is nothing wrong with that post workout, sorry but thats just the case. Simple sugars post workout are beneficial...
> 
> But learn to read - clearly I did not fit in ALL that food into breakfast, I just throw it all in MFP that way because it's much faster than splitting it for conveniences sake.
> 
> Breakfast that day for example was a shake that i listed on a previous page and it had all the necessary ingredients to get through a workout.


Gotta love that teenage anger lol

Anyhow, you had two sugery drinks that day and your total sugar intake was more than your fibre and iirc very nearly equal to your protein - that's why your carrying fat and not progressing

You've got to fuel the machine


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## SK50

He's carrying bodyfat because his total calories are simply too high - not because he has the occasional lucozade

Even if his diet was a complete mess, his bench should be way more than 60 and squat more than 100. Diet is important, but correcting his diet will not correct the fundamental issue at hand here which is the training


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## DaveW3000

SK50 said:


> He's carrying bodyfat because his total calories are simply too high - not because he has the occasional lucozade
> 
> Even if his diet was a complete mess, his bench should be way more than 60 and squat more than 100. Diet is important, but correcting his diet will not correct the fundamental issue at hand here which is the training


Hes only been on the current routine for a month so its early days there but if he sticks it out his numbers will skyrocket. I'd bet on it!


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## saxondale

SK50 said:


> He's carrying bodyfat because his total calories are simply too high - not because he has the occasional lucozade
> 
> Even if his diet was a complete mess, his bench should be way more than 60 and squat more than 100. Diet is important, but correcting his diet will not correct the fundamental issue at hand here which is the training


I dunno, most I can bench is 80KG


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## Sway12

SK50 said:


> He's carrying bodyfat because his total calories are simply too high - not because he has the occasional lucozade
> 
> Even if his diet was a complete mess, his bench should be way more than 60 and squat more than 100. Diet is important, but correcting his diet will not correct the fundamental issue at hand here which is the training


Your right it should be I dont understand why not... I honestly just dont have much strength. 100kg on squat I'm practically failing on the last few reps on 5x5, just nothing left in the tank.

I'm thinking a routine with a little less volume, perhaps 3x5 instead might just allow me to progress a bit faster.


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## SK50

Sway12 said:


> Your right it should be I dont understand why not... I honestly just dont have much strength. 100kg on squat I'm practically failing on the last few reps on 5x5, just nothing left in the tank.
> 
> *I'm thinking a routine with a little less volume, perhaps 3x5 instead might just allow me to progress a bit faster.*


No. Stick to the routine. Read the FAQ below. He says don't modify it.

That Blaha guy knows what he is talking about.

Drop the calories a bit, stick to the routine, watch youtube videos of big lifters for inspiration (pete rubish is my current favourite), train as hard as you can and the odds of success are in your favour.


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## night06

Sway12 said:


> Your right it should be I dont understand why not... I honestly just dont have much strength. 100kg on squat I'm practically failing on the last few reps on 5x5, just nothing left in the tank.
> 
> I'm thinking a routine with a little less volume, perhaps 3x5 instead might just allow me to progress a bit faster


Man u expect way too much, you should start a log and keep track of your strength progression, it takes time especially as natty, just keep hitting dat gym HARD and as i said before work on your diet. over the time u will make progress as long as u make sure u getting stronger and stronger u WILL BE MAKING GAINS no doubt.


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## Sway12

SK50 said:


> No. Stick to the routine. Read the FAQ below. He says don't modify it.
> 
> That Blaha guy knows what he is talking about.
> 
> Drop the calories a bit, stick to the routine, watch youtube videos of big lifters for inspiration (pete rubish is my current favourite), train as hard as you can and the odds of success are in your favour.


Do you think there is any merit to training with moderate weight but higher volume to compensate? Or is it that strength training = faster progress?

Thanks for all responses in this thread so far!


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## saxondale

Sway12 said:


> Do you think there is any merit to training with moderate weight but higher volume to compensate? Or is it that strength training = faster progress?
> 
> Thanks for all responses in this thread so far!


I never lift what most on here would term heavy weights, getting the form correct is more important than hitting big numbers


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## SK50

Sway12 said:


> Do you think there is any merit to training with moderate weight but higher volume to compensate? Or is it that strength training = faster progress?
> 
> Thanks for all responses in this thread so far!


Nah, stick to the routine as it's written dude


----------



## sigarner

Sway12 said:


> You are seriously suggesting that I could build muscle mass on a cut?


You've obviously never heard of intermittent fasting then.


----------



## aad123

ConP said:


> Training intensity and design will be the issue.
> 
> 99% of people never train hard enough and unless you come from a high level sports background chances are you don't train hard enough.
> 
> Get some PT sessions from a top level bodybuilder/athlete with a good reputation and then realize what hard work truly means.


I want to ask this question but I don't mean it in a sarcastic or bad way but how could a person ensure they are training hard enough ? Using myself as an example I will normally do 3 or 4 working sets and take each set to momentary failure and on the final set I often add in some additional work post failure like rest-pause, drop sets or assisted reps. My rest periods are kept to 45 to 60 seconds and after my workouts I am a mess physically. I don't feel like I could give any more but am I training hard enough ???


----------



## WilsonR6

2x 75g whey 120g oats with whole milk + cheese on toast(or maybe some bacon)

350g frozen ASDA chicken beast strips covered in cheese

That'd put you on about 240g protein

I'd say do what I do, make sure you have 3-4 protein packed, calorie packed, relatively clean meals then snack on other **** throughout the day 

I'm not advocating relying on whey by the way, but from the sounds of it it's better than having a tin of tuna, tesco butty and bottle of lucozade lol

Training has to be on point too, make sure you are absolutely destroying your compound lifts. Have a routine like 3-4x8-10 of a certain weight, log it and try to beat it by a rep or 2.5kg next week, follow something like that rather than just going to the gym and doing whatever you please


----------



## WilsonR6

ConP said:


> Training intensity and design will be the issue.
> 
> 99% of people never train hard enough and unless you come from a high level sports background chances are you don't train hard enough.
> 
> Get some PT sessions from a top level bodybuilder/athlete with a good reputation and then realize what hard work truly means.


99%? That's a bold statement, is there any research behind that or did you just make that figure up?


----------



## andyhuggins

Sway12 said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> So I've been lifting obsessively and consistently for 6 months now and I'm bitterly disappointed with the results.
> 
> Here is me in October last year. Never touched a weight in my life, very unfit: -
> 
> 
> 
> I decided I wanted to cut fat first, so I did that. Here's me in January: -
> 
> 
> 
> Now here's me today after 'bulking' for 3 and a half months...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do I have the worst genetics ever?
> 
> 
> 
> I look wider
> 
> 
> 
> My shoulders have got broader and developed a bit...
> 
> 
> 
> but overall...
> 
> Dont even look like Ive ever been to the gym, chest hasnt changed for ****....
> 
> Should I just give up???


Lifting is only one third of the equation. Unless your diet and rest is spot on then you will not progress.


----------



## SK50

andyhuggins said:


> Lifting is only one third of the equation. Unless your diet and rest is spot on then you will not progress.


As much as I don't like to use myself as an example in case people think I am trying to big myself up or whatever (not to mention I'm coming up on my ambien so hopefully not rambling too much), but my story isn't exactly a miracle so here goes:

Throughout my twenties my diet was OK, high protein but, the majority came from lager and protein shakes. But I still looked pretty good for a natty (I just found and old pic just now to double check I'm not talking bs). I benched around 120, dead 215, squat 160, while going clubbing a lot of nights and p1ssing it up to the max and getting not a lot of sleep.

Did I have good genetics, or a good diet? Nah. I simply knew how to train 1) with correct training programming, and 2) trained hard as a mother fu****

I'm not saying the diet isn't important - but I am saying the gains he can make by tweaking the diet are nothing compared to what he can make from improving his training intensity.

THIS is what I call training intensity (EDIT -btw it's not me, lol):


----------



## andyhuggins

SK50 said:


> As much as I don't like to use myself as an example in case people think I am trying to big myself up or whatever (not to mention I'm coming up on my ambien so hopefully not rambling too much), but my story isn't exactly a miracle so here goes:
> 
> Throughout my twenties my diet was OK, high protein but, the majority came from lager and protein shakes. But I still looked pretty good for a natty (I just found and old pic just now to double check I'm not talking bs). I benched around 120, dead 215, squat 160, while going clubbing a lot of nights and p1ssing it up to the max and getting not a lot of sleep.
> 
> Did I have good genetics, or a good diet? Nah. I simply knew how to train 1) with correct training programming, and 2) trained hard as a mother fu****
> 
> I'm not saying the diet isn't important - but I am saying the gains he can make by tweaking the diet are nothing compared to what he can make from improving his training intensity.
> 
> THIS is what I call training intensity (EDIT -btw it's not me, lol):


That is what I call pl.


----------



## SK50

andyhuggins said:


> That is what I call pl.


He has plenty of rep max videos that equally apply to BB.

Check his channel.

The dude is 240lbs and lean.


----------



## ConP

WilsonR6 said:


> 99%? That's a bold statement, is there any research behind that or did you just make that figure up?


15 years of training and I own a hardcore gym in the States bud.

Put it this way if there was a way to put money on it....I would put a lot of money down saying you could train much harder than you do.


----------



## ConP

aad123 said:


> I want to ask this question but I don't mean it in a sarcastic or bad way but how could a person ensure they are training hard enough ? Using myself as an example I will normally do 3 or 4 working sets and take each set to momentary failure and on the final set I often add in some additional work post failure like rest-pause, drop sets or assisted reps. My rest periods are kept to 45 to 60 seconds and after my workouts I am a mess physically. I don't feel like I could give any more but am I training hard enough ???


It's the same as training for a sport.

You don't just come equipped with the ability to train balls to the wall it takes years of dedication to achieve this.

Effective training is like the practice of martial arts you're mind needs to be in sync with your muscles.

Blanking out all other distractions and solely focusing on the contractions of your muscles while lifting the weight.

So what I am saying is how you train now may seem hard but give it another year of training and it SHOULD seem like the training you do now was far easier than what you do 1 year from now. If every thing stays the same I am going to say your physique will look the same.

Bodybuilding = the one activity where training is totally down played while drugs and diet take most of the lime light.

In reality if you train hard enough and smartly enough you can get away with all sorts of "incorrect diet practices".

The saying "you can't out train your diet" is only partially true.


----------



## SK50

I reckon your (or any other beginner who is struggling) best options are:

1) Find an experienced trainer in person - if they are good they will make sure you follow a good training/diet plan and teach you to train harder and progress

2) Find an online trainer as previously suggested, or

3) Start a journal and post your diet, sets, weights and reps up every week. Also, youtube your 'rep max' sets and people will give you comments on form and intensity


----------



## harryalmighty

Sway12 said:


> Thanks all. Ive definitely been in surplus recently
> 
> ... My diet is not clean at all though really. Its not terrible but I was told that cals in vs cals out trumps macros etc...
> 
> Thing is I chalk the lack of progress up to lack of volume. But also I have pretty bad anxiety and cortisol inhibits testosterone... I reckon there's something to it..


think youve got the whole kcal in v out and macros bit twisted mate. from a weightloss point of view yes kcals in v out is all it is. if your trying to gain muscle pay attention to your macros. i do IIFYM but make sure i hit my macros daily.

as for the training just aim to progressively add weight to the bar which, unless you start off with your 5RM, you shouldnt have a problem doing seeing as you have just started training.

as for the anxiety i wouldnt worry about it - get the pun? i suffered from VERY bad anxiety which is one of the reasons i started lifting and trust me it has had no negative affect on the way i grow.


----------



## funkdocta

Waaaay too much sugar imho.

You dont need 3000 cals by my estimation.


----------



## MRSTRONG

100% agree with @ConP .

i`ve trained with a former WSM competitor and BSM runner up and he took training to a new level for me , guys at the top of the game push the hardest thats how they get there , i thought i trained hard , a good example is watching dorain yates videos of him pushing IFBB dudes in his gym to near death :lol:

my advice is to cut first and get rid of unwanted fat then focus on lean bulking .

stick to a strength building program for a while to build a big strong solid base then switch up to a yates style imo


----------



## mrwright

Youve made some decent progress in the shoulders do you prefer/train them more/harder?

Id say focus on the muscle Be sure to work what your trying to


----------



## Sway12

Thanks everyone for your comments. I really find this forum valuable because you get no bull**** advice from experienced people, as opposed to bodybuilding.com etc.



mrwright said:


> Youve made some decent progress in the shoulders do you prefer/train them more/harder?
> 
> Id say focus on the muscle Be sure to work what your trying to


I don't even work shoulders directly..... I mean I military press once a week. Occasionally side laterals... that's about it.

Traps too I never shrug or anything, just deadlifts, again only once a week normally. Weird.


----------



## DaveW3000

Sway12 said:


> Thanks everyone for your comments. I really find this forum valuable because you get no bull**** advice from experienced people, as opposed to bodybuilding.com etc.
> 
> I don't even work shoulders directly..... I mean I military press once a week. Occasionally side laterals... that's about it.
> 
> Traps too I never shrug or anything, just deadlifts, again only once a week normally. Weird.


So your not following the ICF 5x5 to the letter? Or are talking about before the program?


----------



## 36-26

IMO you are just not training hard enough, people should be able to tell you train by now and judging by your pics you don't look like you train, that may sound harsh, but you need to hear it. Going through the motions is not enough, at your stage of training you should be improving week on week


----------



## Sway12

36-26 said:


> IMO you are just not training hard enough, people should be able to tell you train by now and judging by your pics you don't look like you train, that may sound harsh, but you need to hear it. Going through the motions is not enough, at your stage of training you should be improving week on week


I know, but I literally dont know what else I can do... I just hope that I feel strong enough to push more weight at the gym every time I go but I can't. I've stalled on all my lifts. That's pretty much why I increased calories, in the hope that it would get me stronger but it just hasn't.

I'm going to try and up my protein intake from whole foods and cut out the junk, drop overall calories by 300 and see if that helps...


----------



## DaveW3000

If you stalled on your lifts on the program your supposed to reset and ramp back up.


----------



## Sway12

I honestly think I would be able to train much harder with more focus and energy on a body-part split...


----------



## saxondale

Sway12 said:


> I honestly think I would be able to train much harder with more focus and energy on a body-part split...


You're over analysing everything and geting no where, classic mistake most of us made


----------



## 36-26

Sway12 said:


> I know, but I literally dont know what else I can do... I just hope that I feel strong enough to push more weight at the gym every time I go but I can't. I've stalled on all my lifts. That's pretty much why I increased calories, in the hope that it would get me stronger but it just hasn't.
> 
> I'm going to try and up my protein intake from whole foods and cut out the junk, drop overall calories by 300 and see if that helps...


Get a training partner to push you in the gym, some people need someone to motivate them


----------



## Sway12

36-26 said:


> Get a training partner to push you in the gym, some people need someone to motivate them


I get all the required sets and reps in... I dont get what you mean by intensity. Testing a 1RM max might be intense but its not going to build muscle like a high volume set with moderate weight will.

Also, after all my workouts I feel tired, but my muscles don't, surely that is a sign of ineffective training. The only time I felt that my muscles were being sufficiently used was on a split that allowed me to utilize higher volume.


----------



## 36-26

Sway12 said:


> I get all the required sets and reps in... I dont get what you mean by intensity. Testing a 1RM max might be intense but its not going to build muscle like a high volume set with moderate weight will.
> 
> Also, after all my workouts I feel tired, but my muscles don't, surely that is a sign of ineffective training. The only time I felt that my muscles were being sufficiently used was on a split that allowed me to utilize higher volume.


I never mentioned intensity. The required sets and reps are all well and good, it's when you can squeeze out a few more that'll help progress

If you don't like that program change it, do something else you prefer but train fcukin hard when you do it


----------



## oldskoolcool

6mths natty what do you expect lol come back in 6 yrs mate thats how long it takes.


----------



## andyhuggins

saxondale said:


> You're over analysing everything and geting no where, classic mistake most of us made


Totally agree.


----------



## Sway12

oldskoolcool said:


> 6mths natty what do you expect lol come back in 6 yrs mate thats how long it takes.


Well... I dont think that can be right. I've heard countless times that the greatest potential for growth happens in the first 2 years, after that gains significantly slow as a natural.

Also everyone else in this thread said my progress could have been much better with improved diet and training etc so..


----------



## Sway12

andyhuggins said:


> Totally agree.


yeh your right, just dont want to waste my time following a routine which wont lead me to what I want.


----------



## andyhuggins

Sway12 said:


> yeh your right, just dont want to waste my time following a routine which wont lead me to what I want.


Keep things simple to start with. Take a look at the stickys for some sound advice.


----------



## Sway12

yeh im confused just cos someone told me to cut earlier ITT? I have a little bit of mass but nothing of note. Is it really worth me cutting? Shouldnt i just keep building mass (obvs more effectively?) I don't mind being fat as fuk.


----------



## andyhuggins

Sway12 said:


> yeh im confused just cos someone told me to cut earlier ITT? I have a little bit of mass but nothing of note. Is it really worth me cutting? Shouldnt i just keep building mass (obvs more effectively?) I don't mind being fat as fuk.


Just do what you feel comfortable doing otherwise you will not stick to it.


----------



## Sway12

Ill stick to anything. I'm dedicated to the gym, even if it doesnt show yet, haha. I'l never give up till im aesthetic.

Probably worth mentioning that I really dont want the size most on this forum are going after! I'd be happy with 180lbs lean with some definition.


----------



## andyhuggins

Sway12 said:


> Ill stick to anything. I'm dedicated to the gym, even if it doesnt show yet, haha. I'l never give up till im aesthetic.
> 
> Probably worth mentioning that I really dont want the size most on this forum are going after! I'd be happy with 180lbs lean with some definition.


At least you know what you want so that is a good starting point.


----------



## lazy

Sway12 said:


> Ill stick to anything. I'm dedicated to the gym, even if it doesnt show yet, haha. I'l never give up till im aesthetic.
> 
> Probably worth mentioning that I really dont want the size most on this forum are going after! I'd be happy with 180lbs lean with some definition.


Thats one of the first things you need to decide, what your goals are.

If you want to be lean then you really need to look at the diet again. You need to eat totally different things depending on your goals.


----------



## Sway12

lazy said:


> Thats one of the first things you need to decide, what your goals are.
> 
> If you want to be lean then you really need to look at the diet again. You need to eat totally different things depending on your goals.


My theory was, cut for 3 months, bulk for 3, go back to cutting etc, but My body comp didnt change as much as I wanted on a bulk, so to cut with what little mass I do have hidden under the fat seems stupid, since I will undoubtedly lose muscle.


----------



## andyhuggins

I think you should bulk for longer. just make it a slow steady clean bulk.


----------



## davesurf20

I'm not up to speed on the 5x5 routine you're following, but I saw awesome strength gains on Stronglifts 5x5, and later Wendler's 5/3/1. Wendler's is the better out of the two.

You'll know when you're working to the correct intensity when you deadlift and you feel like you're either gonna pass out or puke. If you don't get that feeling you're not training hard enough.

On a side note, do you train with good form? Has anyone ever shown you how to squat / deadlift / bench correctly? Incorrect form could be hindering your progression, and could be risking an injury. Just a thought...


----------



## essexboy

Ill play devils advocate here.OP from what I can see, your have poor to average insertions.Most of your musculator is covered up by fat though, so its difficult to make an accurate asessment.Dont let that dampen your enthusiasm, potential can only be asessed accurately in hindsight, so give it all youve got.You just have to be realistic.Not everyone has "get big" genes"but you can improve significantly.However, I tend to disagree that any progress or lack of it, it related to diet.If you train hard enough, you will stimulate growth even on subsistance levels of calories.

Id recommend a high fat low carb diet, devoid of processed foods.It will spur fat loss, and youll have enough macros for energy and function.Dont worry about calories, get into ketosis, and you will burn fat.

I doubled my leg strength in 5 months, whilst on a very limited diet.It can be done.

Training wise, focus on a big 4/5 routine.Id alternate Squat ,chin dips, with OHP, deads and rows.2/3 sets each.IF you apply yourself, it is enough.However, learning how hard you can ACTUALLY train can take a long while, and some people cant no matter how much they are pushed.

You must focus on building strength, and use perfect form.To answer your question no you really havent done anything wrong, only as Mike Mentzer used to say, "You didnt choose the right parents" Good luck.


----------



## essexboy

davesurf20 said:


> I'm not up to speed on the 5x5 routine you're following, but I saw awesome strength gains on Stronglifts 5x5, and later Wendler's 5/3/1. Wendler's is the better out of the two.
> 
> You'll know when you're working to the correct intensity when you deadlift and you feel like you're either gonna *pass out or puke. If you don't get that feeling you're not training hard enough.*
> 
> On a side note, do you train with good form? Has anyone ever shown you how to squat / deadlift / bench correctly? Incorrect form could be hindering your progression, and could be risking an injury. Just a thought...


I like that........


----------



## saxondale

Sway12 said:


> yeh im confused just cos someone told me to cut earlier ITT? I have a little bit of mass but nothing of note. Is it really worth me cutting? Shouldnt i just keep building mass (obvs more effectively?) I don't mind being fat as fuk.


I have a theory about this and posters in your position - cut first cause if you dont have the drive to do that now, you're never going to loose the bulk a second time


----------



## andyhuggins

saxondale said:


> I have a theory about this and posters in your position - cut first cause if you dont have the drive to do that now, you're never going to loose the bulk a second time


That is another way of looking at things too.


----------



## Mingster

I haven't read every post but my twopenneth worth would be this.

Pick a routine and stick with it. I wouldn't be too bothered which routine you pick but you have to stick with it. Normally I would say for 3 months but, in your case, I would say 6 months minimum. You need the discipline that adhering to a routine will bring.

Eat at somewhere around, or slightly over, maintenance calories. Don't concern yourself with cutting or bulking. See where your body takes you after a period of consistent training.

You know you are training hard enough when you consistently perform feats in the gym beyond what you previously thought yourself capable. You must step outside your comfort zone. It's not a nice place but it is where you need to go.

If I have to emphasise one point it would be consistency. Consistency with diet, consistency with training, consistency with intensity. Do not chop and change if you don't see results after two weeks, or if an exercise feels uncomfortable or unpleasant.


----------



## andyhuggins

Mingster said:


> I haven't read every post but my twopenneth worth would be this.
> 
> Pick a routine and stick with it. I wouldn't be too bothered which routine you pick but you have to stick with it. Normally I would say for 3 months but, in your case, I would say 6 months minimum. You need the discipline that adhering to a routine will bring.
> 
> Eat at somewhere around, or slightly over, maintenance calories. Don't concern yourself with cutting or bulking. See where your body takes you after a period of consistent training.
> 
> You know you are training hard enough when you consistently perform feats in the gym beyond what you previously thought yourself capable. You must step outside your comfort zone. It's not a nice place but it is where you need to go.
> 
> If I have to emphasise one point it would be consistency. Consistency with diet, consistency with training, consistency with intensity. Do not chop and change if you don't see results after two weeks, or if an exercise feels uncomfortable or unpleasant.


These are some very wise words from a very experienced gentleman. Sums it up really :thumb:


----------



## Sway12

essexboy said:


> Ill play devils advocate here.OP from what I can see, your have poor to average insertions.Most of your musculator is covered up by fat though, so its difficult to make an accurate asessment.Dont let that dampen your enthusiasm, potential can only be asessed accurately in hindsight, so give it all youve got.You just have to be realistic.Not everyone has "get big" genes"but you can improve significantly.However, I tend to disagree that any progress or lack of it, it related to diet.If you train hard enough, you will stimulate growth even on subsistance levels of calories.
> 
> Id recommend a high fat low carb diet, devoid of processed foods.It will spur fat loss, and youll have enough macros for energy and function.Dont worry about calories, get into ketosis, and you will burn fat.
> 
> I doubled my leg strength in 5 months, whilst on a very limited diet.It can be done.
> 
> Training wise, focus on a big 4/5 routine.Id alternate Squat ,chin dips, with OHP, deads and rows.2/3 sets each.IF you apply yourself, it is enough.However, learning how hard you can ACTUALLY train can take a long while, and some people cant no matter how much they are pushed.
> 
> You must focus on building strength, and use perfect form.To answer your question no you really havent done anything wrong, only as Mike Mentzer used to say, "You didnt choose the right parents" Good luck.


Thanks very much mate. Yes I'm fully aware I dont have great genetics. I have no desire to be a bodybuilder or anything related. All I want is to be slightly bigger than I am now with lower bodyfat. I really am not looking to reach the stars or anything! I am aware of my chitty bicep insertions as well.

Just to play devils advocate to your comment and the whole strength argument, theres a few vids up on the Misc of a guy who is significantly skinnier than me pulling 160kg squat, 200kg dead and 80kg BP and he looks like a straw.... Those arent amazing lifts I know but, its demotivating to say the least!


----------



## saxondale

Sway12 said:


> Thanks very much mate. Yes I'm fully aware I dont have great genetics. I have no desire to be a bodybuilder or anything related. All I want is to be slightly bigger than I am now with lower bodyfat. I really am not looking to reach the stars or anything! I am aware of my chitty bicep insertions as well.
> 
> Just to play devils advocate to your comment and the whole strength argument, theres a few vids up on the Misc of a guy who is significantly skinnier than me pulling 160kg squat, 200kg dead and 80kg BP and he looks like a straw.... Those arent amazing lifts I know but, its demotivating to say the least!


What did you eat today youngster?

For example ive had deli meats, wholemeal bread, fish, rice and a tub of jelly (seen as its Sunday) nothing measured, nothing counted just good honest food in reasonable proportions.


----------



## essexboy

Sway12 said:


> Thanks very much mate. Yes I'm fully aware I dont have great genetics. I have no desire to be a bodybuilder or anything related. All I want is to be slightly bigger than I am now with lower bodyfat. I really am not looking to reach the stars or anything! I am aware of my chitty bicep insertions as well.
> 
> Just to play devils advocate to your comment and the whole strength argument, theres a few vids up on the Misc of a guy who is significantly skinnier than me pulling 160kg squat, 200kg dead and 80kg BP and he looks like a straw.... Those arent amazing lifts I know but, its demotivating to say the least!


I dont know how old you are.However at least you understand the role genes play.I didnt have the luxury of the internet, when I first picked up a weight.I was seduced by the promises of the genetic elite who sold products,that promised results.I spent many a sleepless night, thinking I too was doing something wrong.

Id like to give Arnold guitar lessons.After 6 months, when he couldnt play like me, Id smuggly tell him that its because he didnt try hard enough.Not a perfect metaphor but you understand.

Dont judge yourself by others, youll ultimately fail ,and be frustrated.When you accept your limitations, as I did long ago its quite liberating.Just apply yourself and set small goals.

Just one more thing.STOP drinking fizzy soda!! Good luck.


----------



## andyhuggins

essexboy said:


> I dont know how old you are.However at least you understand the role genes play.I didnt have the luxury of the internet, when I first picked up a weight.I was seduced by the promises of the genetic elite who sold products,that promised results.I spent many a sleepless night, thinking I too was doing something wrong.
> 
> Id like to give Arnold guitar lessons.After 6 months, when he couldnt play like me, Id smuggly tell him that its because he didnt try hard enough.Not a perfect metaphor but you understand.
> 
> Dont judge yourself by others, youll ultimately fail ,and be frustrated.When you accept your limitations, as I did long ago its quite liberating.Just apply yourself and set small goals.
> 
> Just one more thing.STOP drinking fizzy soda!! Good luck.


Nice post


----------



## Sway12

saxondale said:


> What did you eat today youngster?
> 
> For example ive had deli meats, wholemeal bread, fish, rice and a tub of jelly (seen as its Sunday) nothing measured, nothing counted just good honest food in reasonable proportions.


LOOOL. 'Youngster'? i'm 20.


----------



## Mingster

Sway12 said:


> LOOOL. 'Youngster'? i'm 20.


Anyone under 30 is a youngster


----------



## andyhuggins

Sway12 said:


> LOOOL. 'Youngster'? i'm 20.


PMSL 20 is a youngster.

51 is an "oldie" :lol:


----------



## Sway12

Mingster said:


> Anyone under 30 is a youngster


hahaah nah but the way he said it reminded me of how I talk to my niece or something


----------



## saxondale

Im an old man, just not as old as Andy lol


----------



## andyhuggins

saxondale said:


> Im an old man, just not as old as Andy lol


I think I maybe "antique" but worth **** all  :lol:


----------



## saxondale

Question is - what did he eat today though!

Pizza hut or kfc?


----------



## andyhuggins

saxondale said:


> Question is - what did he eat today though!
> 
> Pizza hut or kfc?


OMG very true mate.So @Sway12 what did you eat?


----------



## Sway12

saxondale said:


> Question is - what did he eat today though!
> 
> Pizza hut or kfc?


Haha, alright here goes.

Breakfast

50g oats with water, 1 scoop whey mixed in, 1 tablespoon honey mixed in.

banana

250ml milk

gym

Roast dinner (ha) so chicken / new potatoes / cabbage / brocolli / carrots / peas etc etc.

Tuna with avocado

Mackerel with white rice

Apple

Greek yoghurt

Does this meet with your approval?


----------



## andyhuggins

Sway12 said:


> Haha, alright here goes.
> 
> Breakfast
> 
> 50g oats with water, 1 scoop whey mixed in, 1 tablespoon honey mixed in.
> 
> banana
> 
> 250ml milk
> 
> gym
> 
> Roast dinner (ha) so chicken / new potatoes / cabbage / brocolli / carrots / peas etc etc.
> 
> Tuna with avocado
> 
> Mackerel with white rice
> 
> Apple
> 
> Greek yoghurt
> 
> Does this meet with your approval?


It does mate LOL


----------



## Sway12

andyhuggins said:


> It does mate LOL


haha sweet.

In terms of sleep, i get enough hours in but its not always decent quality. I often wake up not feeling rested. could this be holding me back alot or should i just ignore it and carry on?


----------



## Rick89

OP your doing everything wrong and yes as you asked i thread title you deffo most certainly give up now

go home be a family man

bird watching

and lots of fizzy pop


----------



## saxondale

Sway12 said:


> Haha, alright here goes.
> 
> Breakfast
> 
> 50g oats with water, 1 scoop whey mixed in, 1 tablespoon honey mixed in.
> 
> banana
> 
> 250ml milk
> 
> gym
> 
> Roast dinner (ha) so chicken / new potatoes / cabbage / brocolli / carrots / peas etc etc.
> 
> Tuna with avocado
> 
> Mackerel with white rice
> 
> Apple
> 
> Greek yoghurt
> 
> Does this meet with your approval?


No pudding?


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## lazy

I'd change the new potatoes for rice, but that looks good.

Now add some chicken or beef for another 2 meals and you might be getting somewhere


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## digitalis

Sway12 said:


> haha sweet.
> 
> In terms of sleep, i get enough hours in but its not always decent quality. I often wake up not feeling rested. could this be holding me back alot or should i just ignore it and carry on?


I see the diet mafia have steamrollered this as usual, Sway what is your training routine and as importantly how much are you lifting approx? People should be asking for videos of your lifting form as much as what your eating.

You can have a personalised diet and your own private chef but if your training is crap you'll still look ****e.


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## saxondale

digitalis said:


> I see the diet mafia have steamrollered this as usual, Sway what is your training routine and as importantly how much are you lifting approx? People should be asking for videos of your lifting form as much as what your eating.
> 
> You can have a personalised diet and your own private chef but if your training is crap you'll still look ****e.


OP was asking for diet advice.


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## digitalis

Think you'll find he was asking generally where he was going wrong IME it's going to be because he's training poorly as much as eating poorly especially with the phenomenon known as newbie gains.

Anyway, Sway, if you want the whole gambit, post some vids of your form for bench, squat and other various exercises.


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## Sway12

digitalis said:


> I see the diet mafia have steamrollered this as usual, Sway what is your training routine and as importantly how much are you lifting approx? People should be asking for videos of your lifting form as much as what your eating.


I see now after todays session that the problem is my training. I don't know what it is but I've stalled and just can't progress on anything.

OHP - 50kg (5x5)

Squat - 100kg (5x5)

DL - 125kg (1x5)

Bench - 60kg... 

Row - 70kg (underhand) (5x5)

I have tweaked my form until I've found the most comfortable for me. My lower body is actually coming along very nicely, quads especially, so I'm happy with that. My back is also getting wider. My arms look very small, because they are. I have alot of problems with form on curling, my forearms take over and I get shooting pain whenever I attempt a curl movement.

Infact, I would say my tendons and joints greatly limit the amount of weight I can lift, particularly my wrists and forearms.

The problem with doing full body for me is that I just can't keep up the energy to squat and deadlift on the same day, or squat and bench.

I never feel after a full body workout that I'm properly utilizing the muscles to their fullest potential.

And no I wasn't looking for diet advice but I surely recieved it. Still not sure I agree with some of it. If I was to eat ALL clean foods I get nowhere near the amount of calories to gain, but I'm dropping cals none the less.


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## saxondale

You're right I was thinking of someone else, please accept my apologies


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## saxondale

Sway12 said:


> I see now after todays session that the problem is my training. I don't know what it is but I've stalled and just can't progress on anything.
> 
> OHP - 50kg (5x5)
> 
> Squat - 100kg (5x5)
> 
> DL - 125kg (1x5)
> 
> Bench - 60kg...
> 
> Row - 70kg (underhand) (5x5)
> 
> I have tweaked my form until I've found the most comfortable for me. My lower body is actually coming along very nicely, quads especially, so I'm happy with that. My back is also getting wider. My arms look very small, because they are. I have alot of problems with form on curling, my forearms take over and I get shooting pain whenever I attempt a curl movement.
> 
> Infact, I would say my tendons and joints greatly limit the amount of weight I can lift, particularly my wrists and forearms.
> 
> The problem with doing full body for me is that I just can't keep up the energy to squat and deadlift on the same day, or squat and bench.
> 
> I never feel after a full body workout that I'm properly utilizing the muscles to their fullest potential.
> 
> And no I wasn't looking for diet advice but I surely recieved it. Still not sure I agree with some of it. If I was to eat ALL clean foods I get nowhere near the amount of calories to gain, but I'm dropping cals none the less.


Get a trainer, then you have something else to blame (how many things have we had now?)

Or just take the advice given on the thread, sort your diet, sort a decent proven programme and commit everything to it - 18 months at least, its not easy, its bloody hard


----------



## digitalis

Sway12 said:


> I see now after todays session that the problem is my training. I don't know what it is but I've stalled and just can't progress on anything.
> 
> OHP - 50kg (5x5)
> 
> Squat - 100kg (5x5)
> 
> DL - 125kg (1x5)
> 
> Bench - 60kg...
> 
> Row - 70kg (underhand) (5x5)
> 
> I have tweaked my form until I've found the most comfortable for me. My lower body is actually coming along very nicely, quads especially, so I'm happy with that. My back is also getting wider. My arms look very small, because they are. I have alot of problems with form on curling, my forearms take over and I get shooting pain whenever I attempt a curl movement.
> 
> Infact, I would say my tendons and joints greatly limit the amount of weight I can lift, particularly my wrists and forearms.
> 
> The problem with doing full body for me is that I just can't keep up the energy to squat and deadlift on the same day, or squat and bench.
> 
> I never feel after a full body workout that I'm properly utilizing the muscles to their fullest potential.
> 
> And no I wasn't looking for diet advice but I surely recieved it. Still not sure I agree with some of it. If I was to eat ALL clean foods I get nowhere near the amount of calories to gain, but I'm dropping cals none the less.


Arms are 2/3 triceps. If you want big arms focus on weighted dips, extensions (all types) and narrow grip pressing. Best quick fix mass builder for the medial head of the tris are double handed db extensions. Go heavy as you can manage, ask someone to pass a db up, they won't mind.



Use pulldowns with a rope and splay the rope out at the end of the movement for the lateral head.

When you do biceps, remember most of the mass is located on the inner head, which is most effectively hit with a wide®. Wide grip curls while I'm leaning over slightly are very effective. Aim to keep them under tension constantly and the rest time low. Supersets with cables are brilliant for bi's. Think filling them and keeping them full of blood.

Shooting pain in forearm when curling is common, use db's or cambered EZ bar.

Your DL and Squat are ok for 6 months, especially as your form is bound to be off and improving that can add kilos per session. Bench being low is probably due to tricep and lat strength. Both of which are major movers as well as the front delts of course. Watch lots of well rated youtube videos and make notes, mental and written. You have to study this.

Don't be afraid of using hammer strength and machines for the back, lead with the elbows when pulling down/back. Hit your back hard, it makes your physique.

If you feel tendon pain, ease off. They are a nightmare to heal. Be careful of elbow tendonitis on the extensions, i'd limit them to once a week.


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## Sway12

digitalis said:


> Arms are 2/3 triceps. If you want big arms focus on weighted dips, extensions (all types) and narrow grip pressing. Best quick fix mass builder for the medial head of the tris are double handed db extensions. Go heavy as you can manage, ask someone to pass a db up, they won't mind.
> 
> View attachment 150820
> 
> 
> Use pulldowns with a rope and splay the rope out at the end of the movement for the lateral head.
> 
> When you do biceps, remember most of the mass is located on the inner head, which is most effectively hit with a wide®. Wide grip curls while I'm leaning over slightly are very effective. Aim to keep them under tension constantly and the rest time low. Supersets with cables are brilliant for bi's. Think filling them and keeping them full of blood.
> 
> Shooting pain in forearm when curling is common, use db's or cambered EZ bar.
> 
> Your DL and Squat are ok for 6 months, especially as your form is bound to be off and improving that can add kilos per session. Bench being low is probably due to tricep and lat strength. Both of which are major movers as well as the front delts of course. Watch lots of well rated youtube videos and make notes, mental and written. You have to study this.
> 
> Don't be afraid of using hammer strength and machines for the back, lead with the elbows when pulling down/back. Hit your back hard, it makes your physique.
> 
> If you feel tendon pain, ease off. They are a nightmare to heal. Be careful of elbow tendonitis on the extensions, i'd limit them to once a week.


Excellent, thanks for the tips. Harder to fit in these exercises on a full body though tbh. Would much rather do a split where I can dedicate 3 movements to tri's as opposed to just extensions, or close grip on the same day as flat bench..


----------



## digitalis

Sway12 said:


> Excellent, thanks for the tips. Harder to fit in these exercises on a full body though tbh. Would much rather do a split where I can dedicate 3 movements to tri's as opposed to just extensions, or close grip on the same day as flat bench..


What page is your routine on mate? If you want to do a split do it, jeez better to be hitting the gym at 100% motivation and positivity than doing a routine you dread.

I remember years ago the dogma on bb.com (where I used to post) was that all you needed to do to get big biceps was hit back hard and do a few set of half ass curls. I did that for ages and wondered why skinnier blokes who hit bi's hard had bigger ones than me! I had to hammer biceps hard for months to get them up to par. My point being, purely by nature of everyone having different genetics, this isn't a one size fits all activity. What works for one bloke etc.


----------



## Sway12

digitalis said:


> What page is your routine on mate? If you want to do a split do it, jeez better to be hitting the gym at 100% motivation and positivity than doing a routine you dread.


It's ICF 5x5, made by Jason Blaha.

Workout A: -

Squats 5x5

Bench 5x5

Bent over row 5x5

BB shrugs 3x8

Tri extensions 3x8

Curl 3x8

Hyperextensions

Cable crunches

Workout B: -

Squats 5x5

Deadlift 1x5 (working set)

Standing press 5x5

Bent over row (10% lighter than Workout A) 5x5

CGBP 3x8

Curls

Crunches.

3x a week.


----------



## digitalis

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout

That's a good routine though in fairness is on the low side for volume for arms. Try supersetting your tri extensions with some sort of cable pushdown. Hit both heads nicely. Also he says you can do dips instead of CGBP. The point of his routine is to get you conditioned mentally and physically to doing compound lifts, most people find they have to really up the isolation work for things like biceps, med delts etc at a later stage. There is an element of running before you can walk etc.

I disagree with him on cardio though, 20 mins + med intensity after weights is brilliant for fat burning as you have already depleted your muscle glycogen.

Also I'd be tempted to vary the bent over row as they can be a tricky exercise to master, which is why you don't often see people doing them. As long as the upper back and lats are rowing I can't see what the drama is. Chainsaw db rows, seated cable, even lat pulldowns.


----------



## The Day Walker

Hi Mate,

I been lifting for about 1 year and a half, I had more fat than you to begin with, my first six months were probably my fastest in gains and body recomp, I was once like you, but I read alot on forums and vids on youtube, it helped alot, its down to your training and diet, please tell me about your training including how much you lift sets and reps and how many days you lift?, cardio? also do you take anny natty supplements? and please tell me what does your diet consist of? you should be makng gains, most newbies make great gains if done correctly, dont dispair you'll get it right buddy.


----------



## harryalmighty

Sway12 said:


> I see now after todays session that the problem is my training. I don't know what it is but I've stalled and just can't progress on anything.
> 
> OHP - 50kg (5x5)
> 
> Squat - 100kg (5x5)
> 
> DL - 125kg (1x5)
> 
> Bench - 60kg...
> 
> Row - 70kg (underhand) (5x5)
> 
> I have tweaked my form until I've found the most comfortable for me. My lower body is actually coming along very nicely, quads especially, so I'm happy with that. My back is also getting wider. My arms look very small, because they are. I have alot of problems with form on curling, my forearms take over and I get shooting pain whenever I attempt a curl movement.
> 
> Infact, I would say my tendons and joints greatly limit the amount of weight I can lift, particularly my wrists and forearms.
> 
> The problem with doing full body for me is that I just can't keep up the energy to squat and deadlift on the same day, or squat and bench.
> 
> I never feel after a full body workout that I'm properly utilizing the muscles to their fullest potential.
> 
> And no I wasn't looking for diet advice but I surely recieved it. Still not sure I agree with some of it. If I was to eat ALL clean foods I get nowhere near the amount of calories to gain, but I'm dropping cals none the less.


stop blaming things and listen to everyone trying to help you on here.

youve been lifting 6 months - dont expect to be ronnie coleman yet.

again youve been lifting 6 months - your joints and tendons are more than likely fine mate, you just need to figure out what movements you can do and which you cant. for example: i cant straight bar curl, causes pain in my wrists, and i cant do skull crushers, causes pain in my elbows. thats fine i just blast CGPB, weighted dips, EZ bar curls and DB curls instead.

your energy will be much better if your eating quality foods, yes i agree with the principals of IIFYM as i practice it myself. saying that though 80% of your diet should still be clean.

and yes you would get the right amount of kcals to gain - let me enlighten you. lets do 3000kcal as this is what you 'bulk on'

breakfast: 4 whole eggs, 2 peices toast, 300ml skimmed milk, 50g oats - 82c , 27f , 47p 727kcal

lunch: 100g white rice, 200g chicken, broccoli, tbsp EVOO - 77c , 18f , 56p 641 kcal

dinner: 200g lean minced beef, 400g sweet potato mash, green beans, tbsp EVOO - 85c, 24f, 67p - 794kcal

PWO: 2 scoops whey, 2 bananas - 70c , 3f, 54p - 469kcal

snack(where for me iifym would come into play): 2 nature valley granola bars 55c , 14f, 7p - 382 kcals

all in all (rounded up) 370carb / 80fat / 230protein : 3010kcals. i could eat that everyday and not feel sick.

training: push pull legs.

push:

bench 5x5

incline DB 2x8

shoulder press 2x8

CGBP / weighted dips 2x8

pull:

deads 5x5

weighted chins 2x8

yates row 2x8

curls 3x10

legs:

squat 5x5

lunges 4x8

GHR 4x10

calf raises 4x10

focus on adding weight to the bar every week.

re address in 6 months if you haven't grown then invest in a coach, if that doesnt work: become a long distance runner.


----------



## dannw

harryalmighty said:


> stop blaming things and listen to everyone trying to help you on here.
> 
> youve been lifting 6 months - dont expect to be ronnie coleman yet.
> 
> again youve been lifting 6 months - your joints and tendons are more than likely fine mate, you just need to figure out what movements you can do and which you cant. for example: i cant straight bar curl, causes pain in my wrists, and i cant do skull crushers, causes pain in my elbows. thats fine i just blast CGPB, weighted dips, EZ bar curls and DB curls instead.
> 
> your energy will be much better if your eating quality foods, yes i agree with the principals of IIFYM as i practice it myself. saying that though 80% of your diet should still be clean.
> 
> and yes you would get the right amount of kcals to gain - let me enlighten you. lets do 3000kcal as this is what you 'bulk on'
> 
> breakfast: 4 whole eggs, 2 peices toast, 300ml skimmed milk, 50g oats - 82c , 27f , 47p 727kcal
> 
> lunch: 100g white rice, 200g chicken, broccoli, tbsp EVOO - 77c , 18f , 56p 641 kcal
> 
> dinner: 200g lean minced beef, 400g sweet potato mash, green beans, tbsp EVOO - 85c, 24f, 67p - 794kcal
> 
> PWO: 2 scoops whey, 2 bananas - 70c , 3f, 54p - 469kcal
> 
> snack(where for me iifym would come into play): 2 nature valley granola bars 55c , 14f, 7p - 382 kcals
> 
> all in all (rounded up) 370carb / 80fat / 230protein : 3010kcals. i could eat that everyday and not feel sick.
> 
> training: push pull legs.
> 
> push:
> 
> bench 5x5
> 
> incline DB 2x8
> 
> shoulder press 2x8
> 
> CGBP / weighted dips 2x8
> 
> pull:
> 
> deads 5x5
> 
> weighted chins 2x8
> 
> yates row 2x8
> 
> curls 3x10
> 
> legs:
> 
> squat 5x5
> 
> lunges 4x8
> 
> GHR 4x10
> 
> calf raises 4x10
> 
> focus on adding weight to the bar every week.
> 
> re address in 6 months if you haven't grown then invest in a coach, if that doesnt work: become a long distance runner.


I wish I had somebody giving me advice like that when i started out!!!


----------



## sanderson

dannw said:


> I wish I had somebody giving me advice like that when i started out!!!


Agree - taking notes


----------



## Sway12

Yeah it's great advice. The training is both low volume and low frequency though, I'd rather have one or the other tbh. I'm not saying I have the answers, but I would like to have more time on each body part. For example I dont get much chest stimulation on flat bench, so would want to add incline flys and cable crossovers, plus extensions for triceps in some form and since my arms are lagging Id want to hit triceps atleast twice a week.

Once again, really appreciate all the help here, this forum is a great resource


----------



## DaveW3000

Maybe something like this if your not struck on ICF 5x5.

https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/upper-lower-4-day-gym-bodybuilding-workout


----------



## harryalmighty

Sway12 said:


> Yeah it's great advice. The training is both low volume and low frequency though, I'd rather have one or the other tbh. I'm not saying I have the answers, but I would like to have more time on each body part. For example I dont get much chest stimulation on flat bench, so would want to add incline flys and cable crossovers, plus extensions for triceps in some form and since my arms are lagging Id want to hit triceps atleast twice a week.
> 
> Once again, really appreciate all the help here, this forum is a great resource


you could do upper / lower or push pulls legss on rotation. i.e:

monday: push

tuesday: pull

wednesday: off

thursday : legs

friday: push

saturday: off

sunday: off

monday: pull

tuesday: legs

wednesday: off

thursday: push

friday: pull

saturday: off

sunday: off

etc


----------

