# Poll - do you have to keto to get shredded?



## Nickthegreek (Jan 27, 2011)

*Do you need to follow a ketogenic diet to get shredded?*​
Yes 1914.50%No 9572.52%Sometimes1712.98%


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## Nickthegreek (Jan 27, 2011)

So do you have to follow a ketogenic diet for even a short period of time say 2-3 weeks to get rid of the last bits of body fat you carry.

Would be interesting to know thanks.


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## bumont (Aug 18, 2012)

I think that refeeding comes into play most importantly when your a few lbs away from being totally shredded. I think it has something to do with raising leptin levels. I think doing keto when you're already depleted and flat as a sheet of paper could really chew up some of your muscle. Most bb's do cut their carbs out in the last week but isn't that to do with refeeding and looking full on stage?


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## imabigguy (Oct 4, 2011)

I found that in the last week and a half of my diet dropping carbs to zero got me leaner for sure but im not sure if this was from simply eating overall less calories regardless i doubt I'd do it again unless it was for getting on stage i got weak as anything and was constantly hungry.


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## hermie07 (Sep 16, 2008)

never been shredded


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

I don't know if you HAVE TO, but it definitely works faster for me...


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

I think that there is a misconception of true keto, and I've been guilty myself of this in the past..

True keto means a ratio of 4:1 (by weight) of fat to protein. Of course this means one of two things:

1) Protein will be ridiculously low

2) If you get protein intake to the correct level then your calories will be astronomical

What most people intend by keto diet is in fact just a low-carbohydrate diet, but not exactly the same thing.


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Bull Terrier said:


> I think that there is a misconception of true keto, and I've been guilty myself of this in the past..
> 
> True keto means a ratio of 4:1 (by weight) of fat to protein. Of course this means one of two things:
> 
> ...


What makes it true keto? If you're in ketosis, then it's true keto right?


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

I believe that a true keto diet has no carb ups at all. As it is to deal ith medical issues.


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Well a keto with a carb up (ckd?) is still keto, you'd still be in ketosis for at 3 days...


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## Nickthegreek (Jan 27, 2011)

For sake of this thread lets take a keto diet as one where you have less that 30 g carbs a day.


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

Ketosis is not a requirement for fat loss by any means, but if you are an individual with average or poor insulin sensitivity then a calorie controlled ketogenic (or very low carb) diet will likely help you shift fat and preserve lean mass ever so slightly compared to an equal calorie more insulinic diet, where you will lose slightly less fat and slightly more lean mass (esp water and glycogen). This is because poor insulin sensitivity means that any insulinic carbs cause a rise in insulin that lasts beyond the post prandial feeding period and well into the non fed state after, and so prevents some fat burning and instead shifts metabolism towards burning glycogen (or muscle if glycogen stores are low) for energy.

If very insulin sensitive though the opposite is true - a low carb or ketogenic diet will be less effective for fat loss compared to a calorie equal diet higher in carbs. In individuals with high insulin sensitivity nutrient partitioning is so fast in response to such small amounts of glucose stimulated insulin that it isn't even as long as the post prandial anabolic state, and this allows for no meaningful insulin impairment of lipolysis in the non fed state, but at the same time an increased calorie burn due to the higher thermic effect of carbs compared to dietary fats. This TEF calorie difference matches nicely to calorie loss in ketosis due to acetone excretion - this makes both diets effectively equally good, it just depends upon the physiology of the individual as to which will work best for them.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

dtlv said:


> Ketosis is not a requirement for fat loss by any means, but if you are an individual with average or poor insulin sensitivity then a calorie controlled ketogenic (or very low carb) diet will likely help you shift fat and preserve lean mass ever so slightly compared to an equal calorie more insulinic diet, where you will lose slightly less fat and slightly more lean mass (esp water and glycogen). This is because poor insulin sensitivity means that any insulinic carbs cause a rise in insulin that lasts beyond the post prandial feeding period and well into the non fed state after, and so prevents some fat burning and instead shifts metabolism towards burning glycogen (or muscle if glycogen stores are low) for energy.
> 
> So getting back to the original post you dont have to be in ketosis to get shredded its all about how you react to certain foods etc.
> 
> If very insulin sensitive though the opposite is true - a low carb or ketogenic diet will be less effective for fat loss compared to a calorie equal diet higher in carbs. In individuals with high insulin sensitivity nutrient partitioning is so fast in response to such small amounts of glucose stimulated insulin that it isn't even as long as the post prandial anabolic state, and this allows for no meaningful insulin impairment of lipolysis in the non fed state, but at the same time an increased calorie burn due to the higher thermic effect of carbs compared to dietary fats. This TEF calorie difference matches nicely to calorie loss in ketosis due to acetone excretion - this makes both diets effectively equally good, it just depends upon the physiology of the individual as to which will work best for them.


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## tiger lion (Feb 13, 2013)

WEE ON THE KETO STRIPS FIRST THING IN THE MORNING IF THE COLOUR IS CORRECT YER STILL BURNING BODY FAT


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## Heath (Mar 3, 2011)

dtlv said:


> Ketosis is not a requirement for fat loss by any means, but if you are an individual with average or poor insulin sensitivity then a calorie controlled ketogenic (or very low carb) diet will likely help you shift fat and preserve lean mass ever so slightly compared to an equal calorie more insulinic diet, where you will lose slightly less fat and slightly more lean mass (esp water and glycogen). This is because poor insulin sensitivity means that any insulinic carbs cause a rise in insulin that lasts beyond the post prandial feeding period and well into the non fed state after, and so prevents some fat burning and instead shifts metabolism towards burning glycogen (or muscle if glycogen stores are low) for energy.
> 
> If very insulin sensitive though the opposite is true - a low carb or ketogenic diet will be less effective for fat loss compared to a calorie equal diet higher in carbs. In individuals with high insulin sensitivity nutrient partitioning is so fast in response to such small amounts of glucose stimulated insulin that it isn't even as long as the post prandial anabolic state, and this allows for no meaningful insulin impairment of lipolysis in the non fed state, but at the same time an increased calorie burn due to the higher thermic effect of carbs compared to dietary fats. This TEF calorie difference matches nicely to calorie loss in ketosis due to acetone excretion - this makes both diets effectively equally good, it just depends upon the physiology of the individual as to which will work best for them.


How much of a role do you think insulin sensitivity plays a part with people with low bodyweight but high bodyfat?


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

L11 said:


> What makes it true keto? If you're in ketosis, then it's true keto right?


The thing is that low-carb diets may not necessarily get you into ketosis, however this on it's own doesn't really mean very much. That is to say that it isn't necessarily important at all to be in ketosis.

Ketogenic diets were/are traditonally used in epileptic patients to control their seizures. Here is an interesting link which talks about the ketogenic ratio which I spoke about earlier:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2656445/

Perhaps it's just a pedantic point, but low-carb diets are not necessarily ketogenic diets. But this doesn't mean that they aren't extremely effective in some people, like dtlv said, especially in insulin-resistant individuals.


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

I'm not sure if I get your point.. I understand the ketogenic diet originally had a higher ratio, but that doesn't mean that a lower ratio is no longer ketogenic..?


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## Bull Terrier (May 14, 2012)

Well the state of ketosis isn't an all or nothing event, i.e. there are various levels of ketosis and the 4:1 fatsrotein ratio was the normal recommendation to get epileptics into the right level of ketosis to reduce epileptic fits.

But like I said before, there's no point in being anal about this, because ketosis isn't the be-all and end-all of fat loss. For insulin resistant people, low-carb diets are awesome even if the ketogenic ratio isn't anywhere near what I said above.


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## TommyFire (Jul 18, 2010)

Bull Terrier said:


> there are various levels of ketosis.


Not true.

If your in ketosis your in ketosis.

...and we're not talking about epileptics here, we're talking about bodybuilders.

Bodyopus by Dan Duchaine will tell you everything you need to know about it.

...and in my opinion- No you dont need to be ketogenic to get shredded, its merely another tool.


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## palbay (Feb 24, 2013)

I don't think you need to be in keto, but if you drop your carb intake down as low as possible (no grains, starches, sugar of any type even from fruit) then it will help your body shift to burning fat and ketones instead of sugar. If you're not used to doing this though it can be pretty nasty on your system, and it often happens that your brain will crave sugar because it thinks you're starving. If you do it right you will want to really up your fat intake to keep you sated.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

Its all about what suits your bodytype really. Its just suck it and see.


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

Do you need keto? No

Does it burn fat faster? No


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Malibu said:


> Does it burn fat faster? No


Isn't it scientifically proven to burn fat faster?


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## Malibu (May 13, 2010)

L11 said:
 

> Isn't it scientifically proven to burn fat faster?


I dont think so, its proven to provide overall 'weight loss' in the first few weeks compared to other diets, but thats due to the water you drop due to low carbs


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## aesthetics4ever (Aug 6, 2010)

Carb cycling is more effective for me. Still keeping PWO carbs for glycogen replenishment I find I still keep making strength progress as well as not craving carbs all the time.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2013)

Should be interesting as I'm on letro and dry as a bone and started keto on Monday.

Wonder what the weight loss will be like in the first few weeks.

Just a quick q, How long do people leave it to re-feed on keto?

I've read from the first week or wait till week 3 to don't re-feed at all?


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## L11 (Jan 21, 2011)

Malibu said:


> I dont think so, its proven to provide overall 'weight loss' in the first few weeks compared to other diets, but thats due to the water you drop due to low carbs


I was under the impression that it was muscle sparing, due to the fact it wont convert muscle protein into glucose for energy (because in ketosis your body doesnt want glucose) and therefore it use more fat for energy?


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2013)

Spawn of Haney said:


> Should be interesting as I'm on letro and dry as a bone and started keto on Monday.
> 
> Wonder what the weight loss will be like in the first few weeks.
> 
> ...


I did a keto diet and did a refeed every week from week one. More for my own sanity than anything. A mate of mine does a 24 hr re feed. Starts Friday evening and finishes sat evening. In theory it's like having a longer re feed but it's still one 24 he period. Doesn't work for everyone though. Depends on your goal I guess


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

In the 1980's, most pro BBers used low-fat, moderate carb diets to cut for contests.


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## Major Eyeswater (Nov 2, 2013)

L11 said:


> I was under the impression that it was muscle sparing, due to the fact it wont convert muscle protein into glucose for energy (because in ketosis your body doesnt want glucose) and therefore it use more fat for energy?


This isn't correct. The body is still hungry for glucose. Ketones reduce the need for glucose in the muscles (because ketones are burned preferentially), but doesn't eliminate it entirely. Also the brain & nervous system can't run on anything but glucose, and that needs to come from somewhere.


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## DazUKM (Nov 22, 2012)

No


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## murphy2010 (Dec 17, 2010)

id love to try low carb for a week see if it makes a difference, but I love carbs too much and im sure it would affect cardio performance?


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## Trevor McDonald (Mar 30, 2010)

Nothing drives me more insane than keto


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## fitrut (Nov 20, 2007)

id say no, from personal experience, got shredded last season on carbs, little bit daily but still carbs


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## Vivid (May 14, 2009)

Not to get shredded but for the best condition yes.


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## Bad Alan (Dec 30, 2010)

No definately not, it's not about who suffers the most on diet as people think. Condition can be achieved with carbs in, lowest I've been is 75g a day during final depletion.


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## liam0810 (Jan 6, 2011)

Bad Alan said:


> No definately not, it's not about who suffers the most on diet as people think. Condition can be achieved with carbs in, lowest I've been is 75g a day during final depletion.


x2. I did go zero carbs last few weeks before show but thats coz i decided to do a lower weight class. If i had stuck at the class i first intended i would of had carbs in all the way to the end.


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## andyhuggins (Nov 21, 2008)

I don't believe you have to just stick yo keto. It is all about finding out what works for you.


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## Northern Lass (Aug 10, 2011)

Everyone is different and people react to carbs differently to others...

Carbs are not my friends


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## big_jim_87 (Jul 9, 2009)

No

I do like keto tho and tend to use it in stages during a prep


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## J_boyd85 (Jun 28, 2013)

Nope I dont like keto


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## miguelmolez (Apr 12, 2010)

I just go low 2 days a week, usually when I'm not lifting and only doing cardio. I've heard that its good to empy your glycogen stores once or twice a week.


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## Jesus H. Christ (Nov 8, 2013)

miguelmolez said:


> I've heard that its good to empy your glycogen stores once or twice a week.


What's the benefit?


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## miguelmolez (Apr 12, 2010)

Jesus H. Christ said:


> What's the benefit?


Emptying them every now and then kicks starts the fat burning process, by tapping into your glycogen stores for energy. I usually follow this with a carb load to raise leptin to aid with further fat burning. I then level out around 150 to 200g of carbs a week, then repeat the process. Dropping 2lbs to 2.5lbs approx a week.


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## raisins (Mar 28, 2013)

MissMartinez said:


> Not necessarily. If you use up the keytones then the stick won't change colour but you will still be in ketosis.


Bob on. Ketosis is not a necessary state for fat burning.


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## raisins (Mar 28, 2013)

Bad Alan said:


> No definately not, it's not about who suffers the most on diet as people think. Condition can be achieved with carbs in, lowest I've been is 75g a day during final depletion.


Why would you suffer following a keto diet?


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## rsd147 (Nov 14, 2012)

Carb cycling for me


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## MrM (Feb 6, 2012)

Today was my first go at dropping carbs, breakfast at 8 (three egg, 30g cheese and handful of almonds )

Was climbing the walls by eleven o'clock and gave in to a binge of sandwiches and hobnobs. Will try again tomorrow ...


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## Jesus H. Christ (Nov 8, 2013)

miguelmolez said:


> Emptying them every now and then kicks starts the fat burning process, by tapping into your glycogen stores for energy.


Can you elaborate on that? We constantly "tap into our glycogen stores" regardless.


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## miguelmolez (Apr 12, 2010)

Jesus H. Christ said:


> Can you elaborate on that? We constantly "tap into our glycogen stores" regardless.


Instead of going low carb all week, I only go low carb on 1 or two days. I cant go low for a whole week any way as I just burn out. When I'm low for these two days I don't lift and only do cardio. It was an article a read on totallyshredded a while ago which i'm trying and seems to be working for me.


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## miguelmolez (Apr 12, 2010)

Also I meant tap into your fat stores for energy for the two days, sorry. (just got up after nights)


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

Can anyone tell me what it feels like to be shredded?


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## ohh_danielson (Oct 16, 2013)

I havent been mega shredded ever id say, so I am not entirely sure. But I wouldn't think Keto is the 'only' way to get shreeded! Probs one of many ways!

I have recently bluked up for 5 months or so, now I have been doing Keto for 5 weeks and so far seeing pretty good results. Lost a lot of weight in the first 2 weeks, now its slowed down a little but steadily dropping.

So it's working so far for me, but not sure what it'll be like when I get into say 10% BF or lower, will probably stay in keto and drop cals a bit more if neccesary.


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## Jesus H. Christ (Nov 8, 2013)

ohh_danielson said:


> I have recently bluked up for 5 months or so


I might try this bluking you speak of. I get too fat bulking.


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## ohh_danielson (Oct 16, 2013)

should go for it bluking is way better than bulking - you gain 100% muscle no matter how much you eat!!


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## Jesus H. Christ (Nov 8, 2013)

ohh_danielson said:


> should go for it bluking is way better than bulking - you gain 100% muscle no matter how much you eat!!


Hell with it, you've convinced me-I'm in!


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## T100 (Oct 8, 2011)

Keto is killing me at the minute, been sticking to 1800 kcal and under 20 carbs for the last few months, had a carb up this weekend and starred back on Monday, sitting here with banging headache, today's gym session was **** poor, struggling to lift (should maybe go higher reps and drop the weight) and the cramps are awful, doing bench press and got cramp in my hamstring and nearly dropped the bar on me, could have screamed the cramp was that bad, keto can be a painful way to drop fat at times


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## Jesus H. Christ (Nov 8, 2013)

I have no idea how some of you guys do these less than 2000 calorie diets. I'm cutting at 2200, and my body is definitely getting to that hormonally-compromised state (disturbed sleep, less libido, ravenous hunger, and less energy). I'm natural, too, and certainly don't have a lot of muscle compared to half the guys here, I've never had an especially fast metabolism either.


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

Jesus H. Christ said:


> I have no idea how some of you guys do these less than 2000 calorie diets. I'm cutting at 2200, and my body is definitely getting to that hormonally-compromised state (disturbed sleep, less libido, ravenous hunger, and less energy). *I'm* *natural*, too, and certainly don't have a lot of muscle compared to half the guys here, I've never had an especially fast metabolism either.


That's why mate. When your assisted you can use larger deficits and retain muscle. Plus we can abuse low low fat diets and not worry bout hormones crashing, we replace them exogenously.


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## Jesus H. Christ (Nov 8, 2013)

Growing Lad said:


> That's why mate. When your assisted you can use larger deficits and retain muscle. Plus we can abuse low low fat diets and not worry bout hormones crashing, we replace them exogenously.


But why would you want a bigger deficit that you need? Man, dieting is agonizing enough already!


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

Jesus H. Christ said:


> But why would you want a bigger deficit that you need? Man, dieting is agonizing enough already!


Faster fat loss mate. Gear helps retain muscle.

Bigger deficit = more suffering for shorter period

Smaller deficit= less suffering for longer period


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## Jesus H. Christ (Nov 8, 2013)

Growing Lad said:


> Faster fat loss mate. Gear helps retain muscle.
> 
> Bigger deficit = more suffering for shorter period
> 
> Smaller deficit= less suffering for longer period


Makes sense.

I'm suffering with a cut now. The idea of smashing down my calories even further is nightmarish!


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## Growing Lad (Feb 14, 2009)

Jesus H. Christ said:


> Makes sense.
> 
> I'm suffering with a cut now. The idea of smashing down my calories even further is nightmarish!


Just think of those abs bro :thumb:


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## Jesus H. Christ (Nov 8, 2013)

Growing Lad said:


> Just think of those abs bro :thumb:


Can't, too busy thinking about cheesecake and pizza. :laugh:


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## ausbuilt (Nov 22, 2010)

palbay said:


> I don't think you need to be in keto, but if you drop your carb intake down as low as possible (no grains, starches, sugar of any type even from fruit) then it will help your body shift to burning fat and ketones instead of sugar. If you're not used to doing this though it can be pretty nasty on your system, and it often happens that your brain will crave sugar because it thinks you're starving. If you do it right you will want to really up your fat intake to keep you sated.


this isn't really true; I'm dieting for a BB show, and I use insulin pre-workout, so have high GI carbs (70g of glycofuse) through my workout; i have restricted calories and carbs, but on workout days I have some carbs in my first 2 of 8 meals (mind you there's 2500 cals in the 8 meals only); and carbs through the workout and 1 hour post. On non workout days i only have 2 carb meals, but about 2000 cals total.... this is really tight calorie wise, I started the diet at 112kg at higher cals (500 each day) and then dropped them again to these levels now that i'm 103kg..

I used to do leto, but can get more ripped with carbs I've since found out....


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## sneeky_dave (Apr 2, 2013)

Merkleman said:


> At first, it just felt normal to me, boy did that change. It was a Saturday afternoon and the sun was shining, at this point I was at the leanest point I'd ever been. My skin felt like a shrinkwrap piece of plastic, similar to the kind that they use to compress package your steaks in ASDA. It felt like I was stuck in an extra small T - Shirt ever time I tried to move, that's how shredded I was.
> 
> Anyway, I threw on whatever I could find, which happened to be a yellow Gold's Gym singlet and a pair of short shorts. I slapped a bit of carrot oil on to soaken me up a bit. As soon as I got into town, I felt the burning sensation of everybody eyefùcking me whilst I was walking, bìtches would approach me and make irrelevant conversation such as "Hi, do you think it's sunny today?" Most of the time I just ignored them and walked off hitting a lat spread for them to mire my shredded back as I left them standing there mindfùcked. One guy actually came up and punched me, and when I asked him why, he said it was because I looked too shredded and the only way he could stop feeling jealous was if he punched me.


And then you woke up


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## Big ape (May 5, 2011)

Merkleman said:


> At first, it just felt normal to me, boy did that change. It was a Saturday afternoon and the sun was shining, at this point I was at the leanest point I'd ever been. My skin felt like a shrinkwrap piece of plastic, similar to the kind that they use to compress package your steaks in ASDA. It felt like I was stuck in an extra small T - Shirt ever time I tried to move, that's how shredded I was.
> 
> Anyway, I threw on whatever I could find, which happened to be a yellow Gold's Gym singlet and a pair of short shorts. I slapped a bit of carrot oil on to soaken me up a bit. As soon as I got into town, I felt the burning sensation of everybody eyefùcking me whilst I was walking, bìtches would approach me and make irrelevant conversation such as "Hi, do you think it's sunny today?" Most of the time I just ignored them and walked off hitting a lat spread for them to mire my shredded back as I left them standing there mindfùcked. One guy actually came up and punched me, and when I asked him why, he said it was because I looked too shredded and the only way he could stop feeling jealous was if he punched me.


HAHAHA


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