# timed carb with am workout



## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

he guys,

so im looking to move onto a timed carb diet, seen as i train 6 days a week i was going to set a cut off point of 2pm for carbs.

im just a bit unsure how to do it with working out in the AM, as i want enough carbs in my system to have a good workout yet i dont want too many to cause fat storage... this is the bit i need help with.

i was thinking along the lines of a high carb preworkout/breakfast meal, followed by my workout with pwo shake (40g protein 40g dextrose) then shortly after a high carb meal and then a low carb meal which will be nearly at the cut off of 2pm and then just protein/fat meals after.

can someone pass judgement please.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

You do not need carbs to have a good session, I'll elaborate (I posted recently on a different thread so I'll paste the same info here).

Sounds similar to my current protocol. I train 6am and 5pm (and I train heavy). I'm carb back loading but later than you; only at night (after my evening workout). This is a mixture of both preference and wanting to lower BF% also.

Personally I'm a big fan of CBL just because I function better on it, but it's also a very effective way to promote fat burning.

Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to carb up to keep strength up. In the morning I'll usually train fasted and my strength is not compromised at all.

Those who feel they need carbs to be strong, mainly do so because it's all in their mind.

Adrenaline is in fact what starts the breakdown of muscle glycogen and is the main releasor of glycogen stores within muscle tissue, so if you don't eat carbohydrates before your workout, the absence of insulin results in a much greater and more rapid spike of adrenaline, and also the muscles are more receptive to the adrenaline... so essentially you'll be able to utilise adrenaline more efficiently and tap into those muscle glycogen energy stores - resulting in greater strength.

A lot of people actually make great strength gains when training fasted; you might just surprise yourself.

I'd highly recommend looking into John Kiefer who's done a lot of research and written a lot on the subject in depth. In fact, here's a fantastic interview that will be really useful for you!






Hope that helps!


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

kristina said:


> You do not need carbs to have a good session, I'll elaborate (I posted recently on a different thread so I'll paste the same info here).
> 
> Sounds similar to my current protocol. I train 6am and 5pm (and I train heavy). I'm carb back loading but later than you; only at night (after my evening workout). This is a mixture of both preference and wanting to lower BF% also.
> 
> ...


Thanks ill watch that vid in a while, just watching the swimming.

I did think of training fasted but was concerned about catabolism, from the sounds of it though that's not as much a concern as I think?


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Training fasted is just my personal experiment at the moment; I was ALWAYS adamant on having several meals in me before ever training but about 3 weeks ago I decided to do some personal experiments and learn more about myself, how my body works and responds, and thus far I've been making continuous (and really quite considerable) progress in both strength, size and definition, so I'm pretty happy that being fasted is not detrimental for me, at least.

I don't believe that training fasted is going to result in any catabolism worth worrying about as long as you have nutrition post workout.. but some will debate this.

However, by no means is it necessary for you to train fasted (if you want to time your carb intake later in the day) then just have protein and fats before your workout... and/or take BCAAs.

Whatever you feel confident in, but you don't necessarily need the carbs if you're keen on trying CBL.


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## sauliuhas (Dec 29, 2008)

Whats your cbl like?


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

Just watched that video, very informative, thanks.

So I've decided I'm going to train fasted and try this CBL, can you give me a ya device on how to set that up with am training?


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

zasker said:


> Just watched that video, very informative, thanks.
> 
> So I've decided I'm going to train fasted and try this CBL, can you give me a ya device on how to set that up with am training?


Great stuff. Will be good to see how you get on.

How do you mean set it up?

Personally I take BCAAs or a preworkout that has BCAAs before training, and then have breakfast (protein/fats) after the workout when I get home. I don't really do post workout shakes or anything like that (personal preference is food).


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

kristina said:


> Great stuff. Will be good to see how you get on.
> 
> How do you mean set it up?
> 
> Personally I take BCAAs or a preworkout that has BCAAs before training, and then have breakfast (protein/fats) after the workout when I get home. I don't really do post workout shakes or anything like that (personal preference is food).


You've kinda answered me with that 

I was curious as to what to eat post workout, and what to do for non training days.

As I understand it, on night before training Ill eat carbs then the following day train in the am, and then eat protein/fats until the evening and back load again, as long as the following day is a training day.

What about on non training days? Do you still back load the night before?


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

zasker said:


> Thanks ill watch that vid in a while, just watching the swimming.
> 
> I did think of training fasted but was concerned about catabolism, from the sounds of it though that's not as much a concern as I think?


You dont need to worry about catabolism


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

zasker said:


> You've kinda answered me with that
> 
> I was curious as to what to eat post workout, and what to do for non training days.
> 
> ...


Aha, I see what you mean. Yes, personally I'm of the thought that you do not need to majorly vary your carb ratios on non-training days. You still need to have a consistent replenishment of your glycogen stores and you DO need to have a balanced diet (i.e. people don't just eat carbohydrates because they train) - so yes, even on non-training days, be sure to have the same protocol. This is particularly important because you are still training on a regular basis. Don't ever think of your body's physiological processes as a 'day-by-day' activity. Your metabolic processes, as well as muscle protein synthesis, fat-burning etc.. they are all processes that continue to function at different times and should be thought of as long-term progressions rather than in '24hr blocks' (if that makes sense). So... yes, keep the consistency with your diet every day as it will go towards that long-term overall equilibrium.


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

kristina said:


> Aha, I see what you mean. Yes, personally I'm of the thought that you do not need to majorly vary your carb ratios on non-training days. You still need to have a consistent replenishment of your glycogen stores and you DO need to have a balanced diet (i.e. people don't just eat carbohydrates because they train) - so yes, even on non-training days, be sure to have the same protocol. This is particularly important because you are still training on a regular basis. Don't ever think of your body's physiological processes as a 'day-by-day' activity. Your metabolic processes, as well as muscle protein synthesis, fat-burning etc.. they are all processes that continue to function at different times and should be thought of as long-term progressions rather than in '24hr blocks' (if that makes sense). So... yes, keep the consistency with your diet every day as it will go towards that long-term overall equilibrium.


Exactly what I thought.... Thanks again for the advice, I'll put together a meal plan later today and start this shortly.

Should be interesting, to say the least.


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## Matthew5 (Mar 17, 2011)

kristina said:


> Aha, I see what you mean. Yes, personally I'm of the thought that you do not need to majorly vary your carb ratios on non-training days. You still need to have a consistent replenishment of your glycogen stores and you DO need to have a balanced diet (i.e. people don't just eat carbohydrates because they train) - so yes, even on non-training days, be sure to have the same protocol. This is particularly important because you are still training on a regular basis. Don't ever think of your body's physiological processes as a 'day-by-day' activity. Your metabolic processes, as well as muscle protein synthesis, fat-burning etc.. they are all processes that continue to function at different times and should be thought of as long-term progressions rather than in '24hr blocks' (if that makes sense). So... yes, keep the consistency with your diet every day as it will go towards that long-term overall equilibrium.


Kristina you speak a lot of sense! Do you keep your calories the same on non-training days then?


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Matthew5 said:


> Kristina you speak a lot of sense! Do you keep your calories the same on non-training days then?


Thank you. I do indeed keep them the same... there should be no need to reduce calorie intake, basically for the same reasons as I mentioned.


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## notorious1990 (Mar 10, 2008)

Great knowledge @kristina

And to re-enforce what she has said about people wanting to take carbs before training to get a energy boost may end up with a energy crash and end up having a lazy workout. I've always trained first thing AM and have tried many protocols, my latest being having a intra workout shake consisting of 25g hydro-whey, 50g Virtago, 5g glutamine and 5 creatine and sip this through out my session. I then have a pro/carb meal usually oats and whey about 45 minutes post training and thats my carbs for the day.

On non-traning days however i use carb back-loading. Using pro/fat meals through out the day and usually my last 2 meals are pro/carb based.

Just have to experiment and see what happens aslong as your getting all the correct nutirents.


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## John. (Jun 24, 2013)

Fasted training has been fine in my experience, but I'd make sure your post workout meal is the biggest of the day with plenty of carbs and protonz

EDIT: I have found sipping a bottle of BCAAs before/during wokout has helped fatigue a little.


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

ok so ive come up with somewhat of a meal plan based on fasted training and CBL... im jsut not sure of actual meals, but can you just check over this to make sure im on the right path.

meal one;

protein/fats

meal two;

protein/fats

meal three;

protein/fats

meal four;

protein/fats

meal five;

protein/fats/carbs

id be having a pwo shake after the workout, so id be having 40g protein as ill drop the dextrose from it.

edit - ive done a loat of reading of kiefer's work today and alot of it ist just logical. for instance when you wake up youll be burning fat due to fasting the night so it really is advantageous to go train fasted as you'd burn more fat.


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

Bumpety bump.


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

kristina said:


> You do not need carbs to have a good session, I'll elaborate (I posted recently on a different thread so I'll paste the same info here).
> 
> Sounds similar to my current protocol. I train 6am and 5pm (and I train heavy). I'm carb back loading but later than you; only at night (after my evening workout). This is a mixture of both preference and wanting to lower BF% also.
> 
> ...


Great info, but what about if you're trying to do carb back loading but workout at 11am/12pm?


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> Great info, but what about if you're trying to do carb back loading but workout at 11am/12pm?


Similar situation to myself, I train at 7am.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> Great info, but what about if you're trying to do carb back loading but workout at 11am/12pm?


Not sure what you mean? The time you workout shouldn't make any difference. I train at 6am and then 5pm and carb load at 8pm. Sorry I couldn't understand; what was the problem you thought of?


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

kristina said:


> Not sure what you mean? The time you workout shouldn't make any difference. I train at 6am and then 5pm and carb load at 8pm. Sorry I couldn't understand; what was the problem you thought of?


Sorry, should've explained better!

Mostly people have no carbs all day until training in evening. What about if you train morning. Would you have no carbs till 11am then have carbs from then till bed?

Also what about rest/cardio days? Is it the same, no carbs till cardio then carbs after? I normally do half hour on the bike at 6pm after work


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## sauliuhas (Dec 29, 2008)

I watched his videos, i think its mainly for a general publick, basically very similar to bpaks approach, no carbs until workout, then loads after..


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

sauliuhas said:


> I watched his videos, i think its mainly for a general publick, basically very similar to bpaks approach, no carbs until workout, then loads after..


See that's the bit that confuses me when working out in the early morning.

Do you still stay off carbs till the late evening.


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## sauliuhas (Dec 29, 2008)

yes if ure cutting, with load of aminos hmb gutamine, that would be fasted session, prob not much strength


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

John. said:


> Fasted training has been fine in my experience, but I'd make sure your post workout meal is the biggest of the day with plenty of *carbs* and protonz


Depending on your goals, carbs aren't absolutely necessary.

For example, as mentioned in some of my previous posts, my post workout meal is protein and fats because I only carb up in the evening at 8pm.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> Sorry, should've explained better!
> 
> Mostly people have no carbs all day until training in evening. What about if you train morning. Would you have no carbs till 11am then have carbs from then till bed?
> 
> Also what about rest/cardio days? Is it the same, no carbs till cardio then carbs after? I normally do half hour on the bike at 6pm after work


It is not essential to have carbohydrates after morning workout depending on your goals. If you want to assist fat-burning (like I am at the moment) - then you can, by all means, continue to stay on protein and fats (remember, your ENERGY macronutrients are both fats and carbs, but the PRIORITY in which you burn these macronutrients for energy is in the following order: carbs, fats, then protein when there is a deficiency in the other two). Therefore, if you want to continue to burn fat as TOP PRIORITY, you can refrain from ingesting carbs. As soon as you eat carbs, your body will use this as it's primary fuel source.

SO.. NO you do not absolutely necessarily need carbs straight after your workout unless you feel you need or want the energy. Or, if your *primary goal is to build muscle* (as oppose to burn as much fat as possible).

To clarify, I am personally training twice (6am and 5pm) AND not eating carbs until 8pm... my energy is brilliant, my fat burning is getting steady results.

I will have to stress that this all depends on your goals.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

sauliuhas said:


> yes if ure cutting, with load of aminos hmb gutamine, that would be fasted session, *prob not much strength*


Not true. See my initial post about your *strength whilst training fasted*:

Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to carb up to keep strength up. In the morning I'll usually train fasted and my strength is not compromised at all.

Those who feel they need carbs to be strong, mainly do so because it's all in their mind.

Adrenaline is in fact what starts the breakdown of muscle glycogen and is the main releasor of glycogen stores within muscle tissue, so if you don't eat carbohydrates before your workout, the absence of insulin results in a much greater and more rapid spike of adrenaline, and also the muscles are more receptive to the adrenaline... so essentially you'll be able to utilise adrenaline more efficiently and tap into those muscle glycogen energy stores - resulting in greater strength.

A lot of people actually make great strength gains when training fasted; you might just surprise yourself.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

A lot of pointless confusion in this thread.

Just have a some carbs when you want them and get to the gym and train.

Timed carbs  ....how on earth did people ever build muscle before the internet came along.


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## AlexB18 (Dec 10, 2013)

banzi said:


> A lot of pointless confusion in this thread.
> 
> Just have a some carbs when you want them and get to the gym and train.
> 
> Timed carbs  ....*how on earth did people ever build muscle before the internet came along*.


No 2 people will have had the exact same results though will they so it all comes down once again to that age old saying "what works for one person..."


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

kristina said:


> Not true. See my initial post about your *strength whilst training fasted*:
> 
> Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to carb up to keep strength up. In the morning I'll usually train fasted and my strength is not compromised at all.
> 
> ...


i trained fasted this morning and it was leg day... i started off with leg press where my PB is 10 reps at 280kg, this morning i upped it to 290kg for 10 reps... 10kg increase and fasted.

i was happy with that.

am i right in saying the doing this you need a higher percentage of fats to proteins, in protein/fat meals?


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## Dan94 (Dec 29, 2013)

kristina said:


> It is not essential to have carbohydrates after morning workout depending on your goals. If you want to assist fat-burning (like I am at the moment) - then you can, by all means, continue to stay on protein and fats (remember, your ENERGY macronutrients are both fats and carbs, but the PRIORITY in which you burn these macronutrients for energy is in the following order: carbs, fats, then protein when there is a deficiency in the other two). Therefore, if you want to continue to burn fat as TOP PRIORITY, you can refrain from ingesting carbs. As soon as you eat carbs, your body will use this as it's primary fuel source.
> 
> SO.. NO you do not absolutely necessarily need carbs straight after your workout unless you feel you need or want the energy. Or, if your *primary goal is to build muscle* (as oppose to burn as much fat as possible).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info 

I'm fat burning too atm, and was just curious because in the video Kiefer says it's best to have carbs post workout due to insulin being more sensitive and putting carbs straight into the muscles?


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

AlexB18 said:


> No 2 people will have had the exact same results though will they so it all comes down once again to that age old saying "what works for one person..."


My point is that having carbs 2 hours before a workout as opposed to 6,8,10,12 isnt going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things.


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## sauliuhas (Dec 29, 2008)

kristina said:


> Not true. See my initial post about your *strength whilst training fasted*:
> 
> Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to carb up to keep strength up. In the morning I'll usually train fasted and my strength is not compromised at all.
> 
> ...


Thats keifers statement based on his research... Yes agree to that...

But when i was younger been doing oly lifting, top nat level, didn't care about nutrition at the time, but to lift max instant sugar used to be the key,dark chock etc.. It entirely depends on goals i suppose


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

zasker said:


> i trained fasted this morning and it was leg day... i started off with leg press where my PB is 10 reps at 280kg, this morning i upped it to 290kg for 10 reps... 10kg increase and fasted.
> 
> i was happy with that.


Excellent!



zasker said:


> am i right in saying the doing this you need a higher percentage of fats to proteins, in protein/fat meals?


The way that I would suggest is to ensure you're at least hitting your minimum protein intake for your LBM, you can then adjust the fat intake accordingly but it's not necessary to have the ratio fat-dominant. I personally make sure I'm getting enough protein but I also have a high protein diet anyway (by default, just personal preference) and it works for me. Carb back loading isn't the same as a full-on ketogenic diet where you have to achieve a horrendously fat-dominant diet (someone correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding).


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

Dan94 said:


> Thanks for the info
> 
> I'm fat burning too atm, and was just curious because in the video Kiefer says it's best to have carbs post workout due to insulin being more sensitive and putting carbs straight into the muscles?


Absolutely; after training is the optimum time to replenish glycogen stores; this works perfectly for me at the end of the day (after my second training session), but I hold off from carbs even after my first session in the morning because I want to get more mileage out of the fat-burning throughout the day.

If you only train at 11/12pm as you mentioned earlier, eating your carbs post-workout will work well for you as your body will replenish muscle glycogen stores as a matter of priority, but if you wanted to get more out of the fat-burning state throughout the day, (i.e. even if you decide to eat your carbohydrates later in the evening), this will still be perfectly fine; albeit not 'optimal' if you're getting into the technical minusha, however, in the grand scheme of things it's not going to make-or-break your results. Small details like this make marginal difference and it's worth experimenting to see how your body responds and how good you feel following either protocol.

It really is something that is most interesting to try out and adjust according to the progress you see and feel.

Things do work differently for every individual and for this reason there are people that carb back load in many different ways, at different times, and sometimes not even every day but every 2, 3, 4 or more days.. - it's all part of the learning process as you try different things for yourself. 

I should also mention that all these MINUTE details really like.. what time to do this, what time to do that.. really aren't THAT important (unless you're competing and every detail has profound effects on timed results) - for the average person. As long as you have a consistent protocol that follows the basic principles, you can make it your own. Heck... you could even decide to train at 11am and then carb up at 3pm if you feel that's about the time you're comfortable with. You could carb up straight away after your workout to get the most out of the insulin sensitivity... it's entirely up to you.

To give you an idea; I used to follow a process where I'd have no carbs in the morning until 11am - breakfast was protein/fat and then a couple hours later I'd introduce carbs. Now, for the past few weeks I've been experimenting with an even longer phase because I want to see what I can achieve with it. It feels good, I'm enjoying it and seeing some results, so I'm sticking with this for a while...

Hope it goes well!


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

yeah i had a peak into keto when i started this many moons ago, thats the one thing i really dont think i could do... i dont indulge in carbs but its nice to have that option, hence cbl looking decent 

im going to set it up proper to start next week and im going to change my training schedule a lil bit also, training fasted was good but i dont think i could do one of my usual chest/back workouts while fasted.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

sauliuhas said:


> Thats keifers statement based on his research... Yes agree to that...
> 
> But when i was younger been doing oly lifting, top nat level, didn't care about nutrition at the time, but to lift max instant sugar used to be the key,dark chock etc.. It entirely depends on goals i suppose


If your nutrition is generally 'neither here nor there' as you say back then, for example, sure - an energy boost from anything (whether it's sugar or fats (chocolate is actually more fat dominant)... is going to give you a kick up the butt.. but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can only lift max weight with the presence of carbohydrates.

A lot of that is also very psychological; believe me, I know this because I ONLY ever insisted on training after several meals and the pre-workout meal would always be carb heavy because I thought and believed in my head that I *needed* it. Most people do and I don't blame them. However, if one decides to take themselves out of their comfort zone and try what they deem impossible, they can and they will be able to train just as strong if not stronger.

I bet there have also been days when you've had that carb-boost before a session and ended up having a **** session... it can work both ways; it's not necessarily the carbs that result in a 'max lift'.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

zasker said:


> yeah i had a peak into keto when i started this many moons ago, thats the one thing i really dont think i could do... i dont indulge in carbs but its nice to have that option, hence cbl looking decent


I know what you mean because I also loathe the idea of full on keto.



zasker said:


> I'm going to set it up proper to start next week and im going to change my training schedule a lil bit also, training fasted was good but i dont think i could do one of my usual chest/back workouts while fasted.


I've recently had some of my BEST bench sessions ever, training fasted..! 

But yep - see how you get on and what works for you. Will be curious to see as well!


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## Dark sim (May 18, 2013)

banzi said:


> A lot of pointless confusion in this thread.
> 
> Just have a some carbs when you want them and get to the gym and train.
> 
> Timed carbs  ....how on earth did people ever build muscle before the internet came along.


If you had your way no one would ask any questions, which would make a dull and pointless forum.

I do agree with you in a way, that ppl complicate matters unnecessarily, but if you're in a position to help answer someones question then it wouldnt hurt to do so.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

Dark sim said:


> If you had your way no one would ask any questions, which would make a dull and pointless forum.
> 
> I do agree with you in a way, that ppl complicate matters unnecessarily, but if you're in a position to help answer someones question then it wouldnt hurt to do so.


I did answer the question, its in the post you quoted.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

banzi said:


> My point is that having carbs 2 hours before a workout as opposed to 6,8,10,12 isnt going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things.


You have *A* point; I always preach the following a lot of the time; people worry about unnecessary factors.

However, you are completely missing THE point.

The concept of following a systematic protocol to help you achieve your goals is actually going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things, and it's those who completely dismiss advancements in our understanding of science and physiology (just because of the 60s and 70s comparison) who will never really grow in their understanding and experience.

Each to their own, granted; some people want to expand on their personal development, whilst others are quite happy just training, eating and being none the wiser. That's perfectly fine; some are curious, others are not.

Would you also say the same about other industries and advancements in health, science, technology? Just because things 'used' to be done differently, does that really mean things should always stay 'the same as they were'? If we all followed this train of thought, the world would not be where it is today.

Just saying.


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

kristina said:


> You have *A* point; I always preach the following a lot of the time; people worry about unnecessary factors.
> 
> However, you are completely missing THE point.
> 
> ...


boom!

in a good mood for a friday i see? :thumb:

i did my usual chest/back workout this morning and it was another fasted session, certainly going to need to change things up i had to hold myself back to make it through the session as i fatigued fairly quick  but then again i may try coming up with some form of intra drink and trying again.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

zasker said:


> boom!
> 
> in a good mood for a friday i see? :thumb:
> 
> i did my usual chest/back workout this morning and it was another fasted session, certainly going to need to change things up i had to hold myself back to make it through the session as i fatigued fairly quick  but then again i may try coming up with some form of intra drink and trying again.


Don't worry - you're only a couple days in... you'll always have good and bad days and there are so many factors in every day life that could go towards this; you could always take an intra workout supp with you to keep it on hand in case you feel you want/need it.

On a side note, I'd highly recommend @BulkPowders - http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/complete-intra-workout.html


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## AlexB18 (Dec 10, 2013)

zasker said:


> boom!
> 
> in a good mood for a friday i see? :thumb:
> 
> i did my usual chest/back workout this morning and it was another fasted session, certainly going to need to change things up i had to hold myself back to make it through the session as i fatigued fairly quick  but then again i may try coming up with some form of intra drink and trying again.


Try having a stupidly strong coffee before you hit the gym mate if you dont already this is what I do and it does wonders for my energy levels when training fasted all I sip during training is 20g BCAA's and this has been seeing me through quite nicely.


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

AlexB18 said:


> Try having a stupidly strong coffee before you hit the gym mate if you dont already this is what I do and it does wonders for my energy levels when training fasted all I sip during training is 20g BCAA's and this has been seeing me through quite nicely.


i did used to drink xtend during workouts but i didnt see the benefits, but then again i wasnt training fasted.

only problem with these intra drinks is that seen as im soon to be jobless i cant afford the extra cash... need to secure myself a job.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

kristina said:


> You have *A* point; I always preach the following a lot of the time; people worry about unnecessary factors.
> 
> However, you are completely missing THE point.
> 
> ...


Yes , eat well, train hard and get enough rest, do that consistently and you will achieve your potential.

Having carbs 2 hours before a workout as opposed to 6 isn't going to make a scrap of difference.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

banzi said:


> Yes , eat well, train hard and get enough rest, do that consistently and you will achieve your potential.
> 
> Having carbs 2 hours before a workout as opposed to 6 isn't going to make a scrap of difference.


How'd you know?


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

saxondale said:


> How'd you know?


There have been many scientific studies done on rats that prove it.


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

banzi said:


> There have been many scientific studies done on rats that prove it.


Rats dont lift weights mate, imagine how small the DB's would be.


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

saxondale said:


> Rats dont lift weights mate, imagine how small the DB's would be.


Plus it's all about individual needs, some individuals respond better to things than others do.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

banzi said:


> There have been many scientific studies done on rats that prove it.


Your point is invalid, sorry.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

kristina said:


> Your point is invalid, sorry.


your sense of humour bypass was successful, congratulations.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

banzi said:


> your sense of humour bypass was successful, congratulations.


Nope... just your delivery is oh so poor.


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## NoGutsNoGloryy (Jan 7, 2013)

kristina said:


> Training fasted is just my personal experiment at the moment; I was ALWAYS adamant on having several meals in me before ever training but about 3 weeks ago I decided to do some personal experiments and learn more about myself, how my body works and responds, and thus far I've been making continuous (and really quite considerable) progress in both strength, size and definition, so I'm pretty happy that being fasted is not detrimental for me, at least.
> 
> I don't believe that training fasted is going to result in any catabolism worth worrying about as long as you have nutrition post workout.. but some will debate this.
> 
> ...


Training fasted is all hype it doesn't really burn that much. 24hour energy expenditure is what you should look at not a period of 30minutes... Fasted does cause FFA release but it also lowers the rate of fat oxidation. Fasted training also means lower energy meaning lower calories burnt. Team3dmj ftw. I was experimenting it on myself not long ago to.


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## banzi (Mar 9, 2014)

kristina said:


> Nope... just your delivery is oh so poor.


Yep comedy is all down to............................................................timing.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

NoGutsNoGloryy said:


> Fasted does cause FFA release but it also lowers the rate of fat oxidation. Fasted training also means lower energy meaning lower calories burnt. Team3dmj ftw. I was experimenting it on myself not long ago to.


Interesting info, thanks. Experimenting with it myself at the moment so this gives me some more reading to do!


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## saxondale (Nov 11, 2012)

I have way more energy fasted


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

saxondale said:


> I have way more energy fasted


See this is exactly what I've found, without fail. I feel immense when I train fasted... and SO strong. Guess it depends on the person and experimentation goes a long way.

On the other hand, who knows what I'll think in the next few weeks; this has only been 3 weeks into my new protocol, so we shall see how things develop in the future. I'm sure I'll try different things and learn more about myself as I broaden the horizons.


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

@kristina just curious, but do you stick to a low carb deit while doing CBL, or do you go all out and have your maros worth?


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

zasker said:


> @kristina just curious, but do you stick to a low carb deit while doing CBL, or do you go all out and have your maros worth?


I'm not doing low-carb personally. I'm currently eating around 240g carbs but I'm not military with precision; personally, I don't believe it makes a huge difference if it's not always exactly on target; the main thing is that you have a consistency in replenishing your glycogen stores... over the period of a week, as long as you're not depriving your body, ensuring your recovery is on point.


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## themav (Oct 7, 2010)

@kristina great info.

If you get time could you post a typical daily food intake ? Im interested to see what your eating during the day and how much and what your eating in the evenings?


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## BulkPowders (Mar 27, 2010)

kristina said:


> Don't worry - you're only a couple days in... you'll always have good and bad days and there are so many factors in every day life that could go towards this; you could always take an intra workout supp with you to keep it on hand in case you feel you want/need it.
> 
> On a side note, I'd highly recommend @BulkPowders - http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/complete-intra-workout.html


Have you tried the Watermelon flavour @kristina? Big customer favourite.


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## Kristina (Apr 12, 2014)

BulkPowders said:


> Have you tried the Watermelon flavour @kristina? Big customer favourite.


I personally use the pre-workout (elevate) - my training buddy uses the intra watermelon hah!


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## themav (Oct 7, 2010)

themav said:


> @kristina great info.
> 
> If you get time could you post a typical daily food intake ? Im interested to see what your eating during the day and how much and what your eating in the evenings?


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

just thought id pop bit of an update about how im getting on with this as its been a good few days of CBL and fasted workouts.

firstly i need to change my routines, i can still lift as heavy as previous but i cannot go on for as long, so my usual workouts would be chest and back, i need to change this. im not sure if ill change to push/pull im coming up with a new plan over the next few days.

as for diet, nice and easy, still clean, feels wrong eating carbs at night as ive always steered clear of them after 4pm and lastly is it working? well i do have the energy to lift as heavy as usual, but i cant go on for as long as usual, so take from that what you will, i have not seen any changes in bf/weight mainly as i dont check these i purely go by how i look in the mirror which to me is the best way to determine progression.


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## zasker (Jun 21, 2014)

just thought id pop another bit of an update on this....

im over a week into this, infact i think im closer to two weeks in.

after the first week i noticed a decline in vascularity, but i cant contribute this to the diet as i had stopped PCT so it may have been due to slightly higher than normal cortisol levels and i had also stopped clen at the same time, so that may be the issue also.

however i do feel bigger and i think i look a bit, for lack of a better word, thicker. so i have decided to change up my routine, im now doing fasted cardio in the morning and training in the evening, doing this i have managed to make some more gains in strength but still feel thicker.

im not sure if it is my body adjusting to the new diet, or if i might be over indulging in carbs in the evening as im trying to hit my macro's worth (around 220g) in one sitting and they are high gi carbs, so im not sure what to do here. but what im thinking of doing is to get around 50g dextrose in my PWO shake and then have a low gi carb with my final meal, any thoughts on this @kristina ? (you seem very knowledgable about this CBL diet)

either way, looking thicker is unacceptable and im back on clen :thumb:


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## Venom (Feb 17, 2014)

zasker said:


> he guys,
> 
> so im looking to move onto a timed carb diet, seen as i train 6 days a week i was going to set a cut off point of 2pm for carbs.
> 
> ...


Meal timing is irrelevant to body composition. Eat your carbs whenever it's most convenient.

You will not lose more fat doing fasted cardio or gain more muscle eating carbs post workout.

Good luck


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