# Need help about heart failure



## Naff1234 (Dec 3, 2017)

Hi I'm 28 and I have been using steroids nearly non stop for around 10 years, I went to hospital after passing out and got told I had moderate to severe heart failure, they are doing on going tests to see if there is anytbing they can do to reverse this but I feel very down about loosing size etc, I am thinking about starting HGH instead and I have also heard that this might be good for your heart? If I used this with out test would I notice any muscle growth??? If not is there any steroids I could take that wouldn't damage my heart??? Please help only if you no your stuff. Thanks


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## unclezillion (Sep 17, 2017)

*listen to your specialist! *

when you put your body under stress for long periods this shows the importance of having proper and relevant

medicals on a regular basis.

Good luck


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Naff1234 said:


> Hi I'm 28 and I have been using steroids nearly non stop for around 10 years, I went to hospital after passing out and got told I had moderate to severe heart failure, they are doing on going tests to see if there is anytbing they can do to reverse this but I feel very down about loosing size etc, I am thinking about starting HGH instead and I have also heard that this might be good for your heart? If I used this with out test would I notice any muscle growth??? If not is there any steroids I could take that wouldn't damage my heart??? Please help only if you no your stuff. Thanks


 Man I feel for you, but there comes a time when you have to take a step back and look at what important!

Ultimately the damage is done, you need to be looking at what you can do to extend your life, not shorten it.

Keep us posted on what the test show, and keep your chin up pal.


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## Cypionate (Jan 17, 2016)

You'll lose more size if you lose your life than if you quit AAS

But everyone who gets into this game knows the day to quit will come and the gains will disappear, it's not permanent

Listen to your doc


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## Naff1234 (Dec 3, 2017)

Thanks for reply guys, but would i see any difference in size or shape using HGH on its own? And has anyone heard if it will help heart failure??? Thanks


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## JohhnyC (Mar 16, 2015)

You are being exceptionally foolish dude. I'm not having a go for no reason but you need to face reality. You have a heart condition and considering self prescriping drugs. It's idiotic.

Listen to your cardiologist and not people on here.


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Naff1234 said:


> Thanks for reply guys, but would i see any difference in size or shape using HGH on its own? And has anyone heard if it will help heart failure??? Thanks


 If/when you come off AAS, you will definitely lose size, everyone does.

Whilst the HGH on its own may provide some health benefits (hair,skin and recovery) that's probably about it.

I think you need to take it a step at a time,

Has the Doctor said you can carry on training or have they told you to take it easy?

Have they given you any idea what is wrong with the heart?

Heart failure can mean a multitude of things:

https://patient.info/health/heart-failure-leaflet

If its an arrhythmia problem , this is because the heart walls have thickened and the signal gets lost from one side to the other, this is the fluttery feeling we all feel sometimes, when the heart re syncs itself.

Worst case scenario here is a pacemaker fitted.

It could also be left ventricle hypertrophy, this is common in heavy steroid use among bodybuilders and strength athletes.

Some more info here:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/left-ventricular-hypertrophy/diagnosis-treatment/drc-20374319

Not wanting to scare you at all (you're probably already worried enough) but Dallas Mc Carver had the episode on stage where he went dizzy and almost passed out ,only a month before dying from a heart attack.

This is a sign for you to make a change, maybe your training days are over, maybe you you just need to take some time off.

Its time to think, not just about yourself but your family and friends also, they'll love you no less if you have to quit lifting.


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## Naff1234 (Dec 3, 2017)

Thank you for your replys mate they mean allot, the doctor didn't say I had to stop training but he said I have heart failure impairment lv function & global hypokinesis , what ever that is? He said I have to have further tests to see what the cause of this ( I no it will be steroid abuse and he thinks so aswell but want to double check) when I had to come off it really hit me hard how addicted I had been to using steroids I crashed badly and felt like absolute s**t for around 4 months now the doctor has put me on anti depressions tablets to try and help me but they are not really helping a great deal, who ever says they are not addictive are wrong! I am still training hard but not seeing any difference and leave the gym feeling let down every day, I thought HGH would help my heart and see gains but clearly not, I don't no to try natural test boosters??? Would this damage anything or what???



Sparkey said:


> If/when you come off AAS, you will definitely lose size, everyone does.
> 
> Whilst the HGH on its own may provide some health benefits (hair,skin and recovery) that's probably about it.
> 
> ...


 Thanks


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Naff1234 said:


> Thank you for your replys mate they mean allot, the doctor didn't say I had to stop training but he said I have heart failure impairment lv function & global hypokinesis , what ever that is? He said I have to have further tests to see what the cause of this ( I no it will be steroid abuse and he thinks so aswell but want to double check) when I had to come off it really hit me hard how addicted I had been to using steroids I crashed badly and felt like absolute s**t for around 4 months now the doctor has put me on anti depressions tablets to try and help me but they are not really helping a great deal, who ever says they are not addictive are wrong! I am still training hard but not seeing any difference and leave the gym feeling let down every day, I thought HGH would help my heart and see gains but clearly not, I don't no to try natural test boosters??? Would this damage anything or what???
> 
> Thanks


 Ok, a bit backwards way round but here we go.

Quote: I crashed badly and felt like absolute s**t for around 4 months.

I presume you just stopped taking AAS and didn't/haven't run a PCT?

This of course will mean your natural test levels will now be at an all time low!

Don't quote me on this but I see no reason why you couldn't/shouldn't run low trt dose test at say 125mg a week, obviously if you ask the Dr about this he will say 'absolutely not'.

This is obviously not the right way to do it, it's just the quickest way to raise your test levels again.

Many on here run low dose trt test (including myself) year long.

The other way obviously is to do a proper 'power' pct, this can take months, you probably would recover but it's not guaranteed.

It took Dorian Yates 2 years after he just stopped for his natural test to stabilize, and he still takes synthetic test to this day, because he believes it has health benefits.

What anti 'D's has he put you on? seroxat? if he has...f**kin bin them, have a read up, there's more young folk commit suicide on them things.

Did the GP say the impairment lv function was systolic or diastolic?

I'll explain both then you know the difference.

*What does Left ventricular impairment/dysfunction mean?*

An abnormality of systolic (contraction or pump phase of the heart beat) or diastolic (relaxation phase, when the ventricle refills) performance of the left ventricle such that either the contractile force is impaired and ventricular emptying reduced or the diastolic relaxation and filling are impaired, or both.

*Systolic dysfunction:* an impairment of the contraction of the left ventricle such that the stroke volume (SV, the amount of blood pumped out per heart beat) is reduced for any given end-diastolic volume (amount of blood remaining after contraction) or filling pressure. In general, the end-diastolic volume is increased significantly while the stroke volume is reduced. This may involve either or both ventricles.

*Diastolic dysfunction:* a state in which ventricular filling rate and the extent of filling is associated with an inappropriate rise in ventricular diastolic pressure (pressure after contraction ends). Normal systolic emptying (EF or ejection fraction)) may be maintained.

*What does Global hypokinesis mean?*

Global hypokinesis is a term used to describe a condition marked by a generalized weakness of the heart and mild to extreme obstructions in the coronary blood vessels.

Every section of the heart, including the cardiac walls, ventricles, arteries, and membranes, etc. function irregularly and elicit weakness or loss of strength.

Global hypokinesis is different from regional weakness of the heart, as the latter features weakness of only some sections of the heart while other sections tend to function just fine.

So basically they are saying the whole heart is weakened as a pose to just the left or right side.

Lastly, natural test boosters do nothing, other than lighten your pockets!

*I see a few problems here: *

Firstly you're worried about what you have been told about your heart (and rightly so!)

Secondly you're struggling psychologically now you have come off AAS (hormones will be all over the place).

Third, there's a good chance you have very low testosterone now.

And Finally, the depression aspect.

So what can be done?

Ok, you need to tackle these problems, one at a time and in order of priority.

Until the tests come back about your heart I would take it easy, once they have you at least have a starting point.

A blood test would show if your testosterone is low, you can ask your GP or do one yourself via Medichecks or such like.

The depression and psychological aspect are one and the same, these will take time for you to adjust and make sense of what's going on, at the moment you are in limbo.

These things take time to sort themselves out, however i really don't think you need anti depression medication.

Chin up kid! :thumb


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## Naff1234 (Dec 3, 2017)

Wow thanks for all that help, I had blood test my test is back to normal I just don't like not having the full pumped feel now I'm off gear, I liked how it made me feel! What would happen if I ran a low test with HGH? Would this be bad for me and would I see any gains? Thanks


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

Naff1234 said:


> Wow thanks for all that help, I had blood test my test is back to normal I just don't like not having the full pumped feel now I'm off gear, I liked how it made me feel! What would happen if I ran a low test with HGH? Would this be bad for me and would I see any gains? Thanks


 What have you been running for the past 10 years?

Dosages etc?


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## Naff1234 (Dec 3, 2017)

Yes 10 years pretty much all different things threw out then last 3 years hit it hard test400 bi tren, anavar, tan jabs, don't remember how much but was allot


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

Naff1234 said:


> Wow thanks for all that help, I had blood test my test is back to normal I just don't like not having the full pumped feel now I'm off gear, I liked how it made me feel! What would happen if I ran a low test with HGH? Would this be bad for me and would I see any gains? Thanks


 You would see gains and it would also make more stress for your heart as would the extra muscle your carrying, you need to lose some size for your long term health, sorry that's not what you want to hear

i love the way your asking people on here if it's ok and whether it will be ok... it's a loaded question to a forum about gear usage and you know it, in this case I'd say it's a case of if ya gotta ask...


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## Naff1234 (Dec 3, 2017)

I have not asked people if anything I'm asking people's opinion


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## jakes (Jun 1, 2017)

Are you fu**ing mad?

Tell your doctor you've been an IPED user, tell him what you're considering. Could it be severe left ventricular hypertrophy? Maybe @El Chapo is better positioned for questions on running HGH however I severely doubt you want to be running anything at the moment.

f**k size mate, all it's going to do is make your coffin more expensive. You need to think real hard about what you want from life.

Settle down and chill out, stop taking anything which can adversely affect heart health. Start listening to doctors.

I really hope the best for you my dude but please think long and hard before you start pinning more gear into yourself. Honestly, this is a drwae level question.

Fingers crossed mate, let us all know how you get on the coming weeks.


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## Lifesizepenguin (Jul 25, 2016)

Losing size is the least of your worries right now, id rather be small and alive than the best looking guy in the morgue.

get yourself sorted, your only 28, this is a little blip in your entire life - time to see whats important.


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## AestheticManlet (Jun 12, 2012)

Lifesizepenguin said:


> Losing size is the least of your worries right now, id rather be small and alive than the best looking guy in the morgue.
> 
> get yourself sorted, your only 28, this is a little blip in your entire life - time to see whats important.


 Is heart failure a little blip haha?

I am curious what you've ran, are we talking full on blasting for 10 years or cruising or time off?


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## Jonk891 (Dec 17, 2016)

Listen to what people are advising you to do. Take a step back and at least find out what's going on with heart before considering using anything. Your still young


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## Jonk891 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ross1991 said:


> Is heart failure a little blip haha?
> 
> I am curious what you've ran, are we talking full on blasting for 10 years or cruising or time off?


 Im curious as to know what kind of doses he used to cause it to happen and was there any reccys used over the span of time


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## Naff1234 (Dec 3, 2017)

I try different stuff threw out the years but pretty much never came off, I didn't cycle it , I done it all wrong really wish I listened to people


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## superdantheman (Jul 22, 2016)

you need to think about your priorities, You just had heart failure at 28 and your first though is about loosing size! Mate seriously fcuk steroids. get well firstly, rest up get healthy again. Thats your priority now


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## Naff1234 (Dec 3, 2017)

Thanks man


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## NorthernSoul (Nov 7, 2011)

Wish the best for you. I think a lot of people worry about this but your the unlucky one it happened too.

I'm trying to do a lot of cardio vascular exercise to minimize any of these risks.


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## Lifesizepenguin (Jul 25, 2016)

Ross1991 said:


> Is heart failure a little blip haha?
> 
> I am curious what you've ran, are we talking full on blasting for 10 years or cruising or time off?


 I meant if he gets himself sorted it can be a little blip :lol: its not a blip if his heart actually fails!

I also would like to know this!


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## FelonE1 (Dec 23, 2013)

Lose gains.. I'd rather die.... Wait a minute


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## UK2USA (Jan 30, 2016)

I hate to sound callous, but how narcissistic do you need to be to worry more about how you look than about killing yourself?

Seriously, besides ourselves, who really gives a sh1t if our arms are 15's or 18's. My wife don't, my kids don't, my friends don't. Ask them what they would miss more, me or my muscles?

I would rather be a skinny guy enjoying my wife and kids, than a meathead about to die.......especially at 28!

Blunt? Yes. Honest advice? Yes. Do the right thing bro, stop that sh1t and work on getting healthy and enjoying life.........there is such a thing outside lifting.


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## smiddy444 (Feb 18, 2017)

OK, was referred to this thread as someone mentioned it on the steroid forum.

I have some important questions, both as I'm worried about you (albeit an anonymous guy on a forum I've never met) and my own health.

In short, I'm a paranoid hypochondriac who suffered from panic/anxiety for years. Always thought there was something wrong with my heart, and was also always feeling sick/bloated and would just throw up when I forced more, because I was skeletal thin and couldn't put on weight. I did my first cycle of Test E this summer and it changed my life - panic/anxiety gone, confidence/drive/energy levels amazing, and put on two stone, mainly muscle (no noticable fat anyway) and some water weight as expected. Planning to do it again next year. Just finishing PCT now and then having some time off.

Now before I started, I was obviously worried about health issues as a hypochondriac. Read, and read, and read, and read about it. Told my GP I was planning on doing steroids, and while he obviously couldn't officially say yes, he gave it the thumbs up with a wink and a nudge. He, and various studies I've read online, suggested that nothing links heart issues to steroid use, apart from possibly in very heavy abusers who use insane doses and never cycle off. Even there, there is no definitive proof that it was roids alone. People like Piana and McCarver used insulin, with the former dying as a result of an insulin induced coma.

Can I ask exactly how hard you were hitting the gear? Is there a chance your heart issue is genetic or simply coincidence? I'm not trying to suggest that steroid use had nothing to do with it, nor am I clutching at straws here, but it would be nice to know that well-researched and sensible steroid use isn't a potential death sentence for everyone who partakes.

As for you my friend, you need to do two things -

1. Stop the fu**ing gear, seriously. As others have said, what is more important? Being alive and not being jacked, or having a big coffin?

2. Tell your doctor about ALL your PED use. This has two important reasons - it will help him/them understand your potentially fatal condition further and help them treat it, and it will tell us whether steroid use is entirely to blame. He might turn around and go "no, the steroids didn't help, but your condition is genetic/coincidence".

Remember, plenty of young guys, often athletes, drop dead from heart problems (some diagnosed, some un-diagnosed) every year. I sadly know a few myself. And they never touched steroids or any PED.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

smiddy444 said:


> OK, was referred to this thread as someone mentioned it on the steroid forum.
> 
> I have some important questions, both as I'm worried about you (albeit an anonymous guy on a forum I've never met) and my own health.
> 
> ...


 There's lots of evidence to support heart and loads of other organs being effected by gear use? There was a thread on here today where it was all listed if you have a look (unless that was you who started it?)


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## smiddy444 (Feb 18, 2017)

I saw one on the main steroid forum, and I realise steroids can cause the issues raised there. But as also stated there, and in every study I've read, getting regular bloodwork and correcting any issues as soon as they start to show, means you can use gear safely.

There are of course plenty of long-term users on here, some in their 60s, who haven't dropped dead yet.

Then there's the issues I responded to in another thread - I must pull out the study, but it's known the LVH caused by steroid use is the same benign LVH seen in non-steroid using athletes. All other things being normal, an enlarged left-ventricle isn't dangerous, otherwise we'd be seeing runners and field athletes dropping like flies.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

smiddy444 said:


> I saw one on the main steroid forum, and I realise steroids can cause the issues raised there. But as also stated there, and in every study I've read, getting regular bloodwork and correcting any issues as soon as they start to show, means you can use gear safely.
> 
> There are of course plenty of long-term users on here, some in their 60s, who haven't dropped dead yet.
> 
> Then there's the issues I responded to in another thread - I must pull out the study, but it's known the LVH caused by steroid use is the same benign LVH seen in non-steroid using athletes. All other things being normal, an enlarged left-ventricle isn't dangerous, otherwise we'd be seeing runners and field athletes dropping like flies.


 Blood work won't show an enlarged heart or plaque in the arteries (they can maybe tell with specialised tests but good luck getting a routine examination for it!)

will it tell you your organs are bigger? How do you tell your liver is slowly growing? Your a little bit naive if you think there aren't any life threatening sides of gear use that can't be tested for! You think pro bodybuilders dont have bloods done regularly with the gear they use? They push boundaries and probably get prescribed gear in some situations from docs who monitor all the things they can and guess what they still dies younger than average joe regardless of studies


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

smiddy444 said:


> Piana and McCarver used insulin, with the former dying as a result of an insulin induced coma.


 Both died from heart related episodes, I'm not saying the years of slin didn't contribute but technically they both had a cardiac event.

An excerpt from Dallas Mc Carvers autopsy









And what happened to Rich Piana.


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## Pr1me (Jul 29, 2017)

Forget about gear and focus on your health mate. Nobody is gonna care how much muscle you have when your laying in a coffin, sorry.


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## Jonk891 (Dec 17, 2016)

smiddy444 said:


> OK, was referred to this thread as someone mentioned it on the steroid forum.
> 
> I have some important questions, both as I'm worried about you (albeit an anonymous guy on a forum I've never met) and my own health.
> 
> ...


 You need to do a lot more research and dallas did not die from a insulin induced coma


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## smiddy444 (Feb 18, 2017)

Sparkey said:


> Both died from heart related episodes, I'm not saying the years of slin didn't contribute but technically they both had a cardiac event.
> 
> An excerpt from Dallas Mc Carvers autopsy
> 
> View attachment 147861


 Exactly. Also interested by the line "there is significant overlaps in features related to naturally-occurring and/or familial cardiovascular disease." So is that saying there is significant chance a lot of it was naturally occurring and/or hereditary?


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## smiddy444 (Feb 18, 2017)

Jonk891 said:


> You need to do a lot more research and dallas did not die from a insulin induced coma


 I double checked, and I did not say McCarver died from an insulin induced coma.

If you can point me towards some studies on this subject, I will gladly read them.


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## Jonk891 (Dec 17, 2016)

smiddy444 said:


> I double checked, and I did not say McCarver died from an insulin induced coma.
> 
> If you can point me towards some studies on this subject, I will gladly read them.


 You said that one of them died as a result of a insulin induced coma neither of them did.

You said that you read online that steroids are not linked to heart problems well they can be from several different factors. I don't need to post up studies there is plenty of evidence but im sure someone will do.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

smiddy444 said:


> I double checked, and I did not say McCarver died from an insulin induced coma.
> 
> If you can point me towards some studies on this subject, I will gladly read them.


 You wont find any studies where high doses of anabolic steroids are given to people and then see how they progress towards death over years of steroid use because it's not ethical to potentially kill someone, that must mean it doesn't happen though?

also you ask if it could be some background genetic condition combined with steroid use that kills... how do you know you don't have such a genetic condition?

And denying steroids makes organs larger and can idadvertantly kill is burying your head in the sand


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## iamyou (Oct 29, 2012)

Steroids make me feel so good. How can they be bad for you?


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## 66983 (May 30, 2016)

smiddy444 said:


> Exactly. Also interested by the line "there is significant overlaps in features related to naturally-occurring and/or familial cardiovascular disease." So is that saying there is significant chance a lot of it was naturally occurring and/or hereditary?


 Both,

It was hereditary, but the years of steroid use just speeded it up.


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## smiddy444 (Feb 18, 2017)

I feel I've upset people unintentionally here, so allow me to explain.

I am in no doubt whatsoever that long term, heavy, and poorly executed steroid use can cause serious health effects. Furthermore, I know that not all conditions related with such AAS abuse are flagged up by simple bloodwork, and that often even when bloodwork shows potential issues, some people choose to ignore this and carry on abusing gear.

My point was however, that in most cases, while steroid use is often a factor, there are often other things at play. As a mainstream example, look at the Leah Betts story - she died after taking ecstasy then drinking far too much water (hyponatremia). The coroner noted in his report that "neither one would have likely killed her on its own". So yes, as many of us were spoon-fed in school, ecstasy did lead to her death, but it wasn't that alone. And that's what I feel is important here. Most, and I admit not all, of these guys wouldn't have died without extreme AAS abuse, however that doesn't mean to say extreme AAS abuse on it's own is always fatal. More importantly, it doesn't mean sensible and moderated AAS usage is intrinsically dangerous, certainly not to the point of causing death.

The reason I feel this is important, and as I assume pretty much all of you are also steroid users you'll feel the same, is because we're well used to the typical Daily Mail response that "ALL STEROID USERS WILL DESTROY THEIR HEARTS AND THEIR DICKS WILL FALL OFF!" and get lectures to that end from plenty of non-users whenever the subject might crop up. I mean, to use a famous example, look at Zyzz. Any mainstream media source, as well as most laymen who've heard of him, will tell you he died from steroid use. Yet the reality is he didn't even have an undiagnosed heart condition, he had a diagnosed one - he knew all about it, and stupidly chose to ignore it. Reports suggest he wasn't on gear at the time, but was in a sauna, in Thailand, in summer, and had been drinking alcohol, taking coke, and was on DNP. It was pretty much suicide. Yet "steroids" get the blame.

Much like the analogy with alcohol, surely it would do us all a favour as steroid users to accept that yes, abuse of steroids can be dangerous, but in moderation and with the right precautions, it's perfectly safe and healthy. As I say, there's plenty of studies and research being done at the moment to suggest that testosterone could be a much more effective and safer solution to male depression, and the horrific male suicide rate, over potentially dangerous and harmful SSRIs. However, if people associate "steroids" with mutants injecting 50g of tren a week and their hearts exploding, that isn't doing anyone any favours.


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## superdrol (Aug 9, 2012)

smiddy444 said:


> abuse of steroids can be dangerous, but in moderation and with the right precautions, it's perfectly safe and healthy.


 It could be said that taking them in any form other than prescribed was abuse, so I'd agree in that case, but don't kid yourself, even trt carry's risks to the patient and that would be fully monitored by a doc who specialises in it

so that's where your argument falls down for me, nothing to do with taking gear is 'perfectly safe and healthy', how long does it take for hct to be too high before you have a stroke, even with bloods and giving blood every 8 weeks, in the seventh week (a week before giving blood) your hct could be too high and death could occur, how do you test for that? Or know about it as seven weeks on even trt is enough for blood to become over thick and cause grief?? Just an example of why there are risks attached to everything

just my two Penneth, I love a discussion and can play devils advocate

im also on test and deca right now and due to give blood on the 28th as a matter of course and check my bp weekly and get bloods regularly, which reminds me of best book em for new year  I'm not daft enough to say it's safe and healthy, but risk vs reward it's worth it and I'll take a break after Xmas and cut and give my body a break 

ps you won't upset people on here, most can read an opinion and either agree or argue the toss or give an opposing view and also a personal view point as I have done above


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## drwae (Jul 25, 2017)

fu**ing hell id better cycle off soon and cruise then hope you dont die mate can i ask what your diet was like the past 10 years did you eat lots of vegetables, fish oils, olive oil, red wine etc or junk food?


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