# more advice needed



## robin_3_16 (Aug 27, 2003)

hey guys

right my back workout has been sorted for a few weeks, while on gear,

but now i am coming off soon and want to sort something out

i can still only do about 2 wide grip chinups, so if i do 3 sets i get 6 in total at the most

if i do a set of pull downbs to finish is this enough, too much? too little?

i am having trouble with this as i want to alternate between the 2

but its hard when i can do so little chin ups, because i feel i have to do them every week so that i will be able to do more eventually, it has been extra hard trying to do more chins while on cycle as i am gaining weight

so as i could do 2 before with me at 13 stone

i can do 2 now with me at 14 and a half stone

also the back is a big muscle group how many sets is acceptable for the back as to not overtrain it?

thanks guys!


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## Jock (Apr 8, 2003)

Do not overcomplicate things bro....what you are striving for is maximum muscle hypertophy. 2 reps will not really achieve that.

I'm a big fan of Max-OT style training, I usually complete 1-2 warm-up sets of about 50% max and then 2 work sets. 1 of usually 6 reps then a second of 4 reps.......this style of training is very short and intense, but it has worked great for me. My workouts are very hard but also very short and I'm usually done in 45-50mins.

You can take these principles and add more work sets when you are on gear as overtraining is not really an issue.

Keep doing pull-ups but narrow your grip.....if you want to make things more difficult tie a 5kg weight to your belt and feel the burn.

The 4-6 rep range is a great way to achieve maximal hypertrophy, don't give up on wide-grip chins, just attempt them a little later on when your back is stronger and more well-developed.

Best of luck, Jock


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## robin_3_16 (Aug 27, 2003)

thats a good idea, so what u r saying is leave them out for now, and just do heavy pulldowns etc and wait till my back is stronger and bigger then maybe try them again

so i don't need to do chin ups to get stronger at them and do more?

thanks mate


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by robin_3_16
> 
> *thats a good idea, so what u r saying is leave them out for now, and just do heavy pulldowns etc and wait till my back is stronger and bigger then maybe try them again*
> 
> ...


Robin, If you want to do more chin ups then you will have to do chin ups. Do a warm-up set on pull downs and then do your 2 sets to failure of chin ups.

After that do a drop down set with the pulldowns or maybe 2 sets getting 8-12 reps.

Pullups/chin ups are a technique kindof thing.

This helped me:

First of all: you will not be able to do as many chin ups when you gain weight as for when you are light. So when you lose the water you "WILL" do more chin ups as you will be lighter.

Second: when you do your pull ups/chin ups, think of your elbo's pushing down and not you pulling your weight up. Think of the elbo's and not you pulling the body. This was taught to me by a old guy 20 years ago. You have to think in your mind not the pulling aspect of the lift but pushing your elbo's down.

This will make your mind think of using more back than your bicep's.

Sounds crazy but this did work for me.

Next, if you want to do pulldowns then do them. But do them every other week. Pullups are harder and if you want to do more of these (pullups/chinups) then you will just have to do them.

Think of the mechanics of this: First you have to use grip, then bicep, then upper back and actually abs to support your body. All around pullups/chinups do more than pulldowns. So do both but do the pulldowns after the chins.

Make sense?

Practice makes perfect I have heard. So If you want a big bench then do bench. If you want a big squat then do squats. Dont do leg press and extentions to get your squats up. Do the squats!

Summary: do the pullups and then do the pulldowns for the down sets.

Concentrate on your elbo's and not your back or arms and think that your elbo's are being pushed down. This will take your mind off of what you are doing and focus on the power of the lift.

Hope this helps

Cheers M8


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## T-man (Sep 3, 2003)

I have started doing chins again the last few months and can see the extra width they have added already. I used to have one lat bigger than the other but the seam to have evened out.

I used to do chins with 20kg around my waist for 10 but now I only use my bodyweight but I am 20kg heavier now so it evens it out.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by T-man
> 
> *I used to do chins with 20kg around my waist for 10 but now I only use my bodyweight but I am 20kg heavier now so it evens it out. *


Impressive T-man

Not too many guys can do that!


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## Jock (Apr 8, 2003)

Yeah nice one bro, I can do about 6 with a 5kg weight


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## robin_3_16 (Aug 27, 2003)

i can do about 2 at my own bodyweight


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

I can do 7 with 97.27 kg's


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## Jock (Apr 8, 2003)

Just to clarify here which kind of chins are we talking about here? like this?:

www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/LatissimusDorsi/AsUnderhandChinup.html


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## powerU (Oct 22, 2003)

so, for the widest lats, am i best doing underhand grip close chins as mentioned above or wide overhand grip pullups as i do at the moment??


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## BSF James (Sep 29, 2003)

Jock,

the max-ot program is good isn't it? I'm doing this now for a while - mainly cos it recommends training 5 x a week (I'm making the most of training in my gym before I leave it!)

It makes a lot of sense. Progressive overload is the only consistent way to build muscle, especially for natural trainers.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by Jock
> 
> *Just to clarify here which kind of chins are we talking about here? like this?:*
> 
> ...


Those are girl pullups. No I do the wide overhand ones.


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## BSF James (Sep 29, 2003)

'Girl pullups'!

- classic! 

I always do them wide grip (although I dont do them often). Reverse grip makes it almost a bicep exercise.

Robin,

Dont feel bad that you can only do 2 reps - Lee Priest can hardly do any in his off season - he just 'hangs' there! I have one of his videos and he has a guy helping him do forced reps in it.


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## robin_3_16 (Aug 27, 2003)

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/LatissimusDorsi/WtChinup.html

these are the ones we are talking about

i know i wish i had someone there to help because i think this is better then assissted machines i think they are a waste of time, IMO


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## T-man (Sep 3, 2003)

I do wide overhand grip chins. Not too wide though as you shorten your range of motion.

I try to bring my chest to the bar arching my back and hold for a squeeze at the top. When I can't do any more I sometimes do a couple of slow negatives or just hold my self at mid point for as long as I can take it.


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Yes Robin those are the ones I do. When I was young, I used to do 20 reps for a few sets. Now I am older and heavier and can only do 7 reps.

Robin, just do a couple of sets after you warm up on the pulldowns and do 2 sets to failure. You then can go back to the machine or assisted machine and finish out your back routine. Do the pullups first in your back routine after a warm up on pulldowns.as you will be the most fresh.


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## robin_3_16 (Aug 27, 2003)

ok then, and shorten my grip to make them abit easier til i can do more?

if i shorten the width of the grip abit does it not have as a good of an effect (great english grammer there)

also i never tried leaning back a bit and pulling my chest to the bar i usually just go straight up and try pull my chin over!

could i try puling my chest up?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

If you lean back it tends to hit more thickness than just width. If you do bent over rows you dont need to lean back. I find leaning back tends to make the lift more difficult.

I would take a grip that is not too wide and a grip that is not too narrow. Use the same grip if you want to get stronger.

I dont know if you read my other thread but this has helped me when I was younger. Try not to think of the pulling and think more of pushing your elbos down during the pulling part of the exercise. I dont know how this works but it does. Try it next time when you think about it.

A older guy told me about this 20 years ago and still is true to this day when I do them.

Recap:

use the same grip each time (not too narrow and not too wide)

think of pushing down on the elbos and not pulling up.

Warm up first on machine then go for a max reps on 2 sets

Then go back and finish up on machine or assisted machine.

Then go and do your thickining exercises (bent over rows, etc.)


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## robin_3_16 (Aug 27, 2003)

HOW MANY SETS IN TOTAL IS AGOOD AMOUNT FOR BACK

going for size!?


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

Every other week:

4 sets of pullups/pulldowns. 8-12 reps.

4 sets of pullups close grip. 8-12 reps.

4 sets of bent over rows 8-12 reps.

Then the next week do:

4 sets bent over rows 8-12 reps.

4 sets low rows 8-12 reps.

4 sets of pullups/pulldowns 8-12 reps.

The reason I say it like this is every other week you are concintrating on thickening and the other week you are concintrating on width.

I like to do this: pullups then bent over rows then a low row.

You can do dead lifts on back day or you can do dead lifts on your leg day.

12 sets can be just fine for back. 2 thickining and 1 width or 2 widening and 1 thickening. 12 sets here.

Or you can do 2 sets width 3 sets each and 2 sets widening for 2 sets. 12 sets here.

Does this look ok?


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## robin_3_16 (Aug 27, 2003)

yeh i think i get it, i have been overworking my back i usually do about 3 widening and 3 thickening

adds up to too much i guess

thanks alot mate!


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## hackskii (Jul 27, 2003)

But for your worksets you have to hammer on that group. Partners are good for this. Push, Push!!

Legs today with Winger and a friend, got more reps than I would by myself. I could not let winger out do me so we both went for it. I went last and I only had to out do him

Could hardly walk.


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## powerU (Oct 22, 2003)

I disagree with dead lifts on a leg day - done correctly they primarily hit the lower back, SLDL on a leg day instead.


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## OnePack (Jan 9, 2004)

Was that Max T's program? what does the program entail? any info/links i can find out?


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