# Type of pre exhaust training



## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Anyone tried/trying iso exercises before bigger compounds.

I've read that this type of training is a no no because your lifting lighter weights

than if you started with the compounds, hence not getting the deep fibre's

stimulated as much.

Any thoughts?? Anyone seen any good results from this??


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

I think the reasoning for pre exhaust is to take weak links out of compound lifts - ie, if you think of Benches as a pec exercise rather than a chest, delts & tris exercise and feel that your triceps always limit how much you can bench (and so also limit the ability of the bench press to maximally work your pecs), then in theory by pre exhausting the pecs only say with flyes, you can then totally exhaust your pecs when you bench.

To make this work of course ideally you shouldn't be dropping weight on the bench - you should just be making it harder by having the pecs already worked

I can see the logic but I think the important thing is just total work load - if you did the flyes afterwards it worls out as the same total stimulation as before, and by not supersetting and having rest you should be able to actually put more into each set.

That's my take


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

Is it really that important what you lift?

IMO it is how you lift that makes the difference. Personally I can curl 35kg dumbells with sloppy form, but I get more stimulus from using 18kg with absolute form ensuring only the muscle moves the weight through 100% of the movement.

Granted, once you are lifting correctly then you should use as much as you can handle.

I personally structure my workouts to pre-exhaust, but the reason I do this, particularly on chest is because I believe my chest development is less superior to my delt and tri development. If my chest was better than my delts and tri's I probably wouldn't.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Dtlv74 said:


> I think the reasoning for pre exhaust is to take weak links out of compound lifts - ie, if you think of Benches as a pec exercise rather than a chest, delts & tris exercise and feel that your triceps always limit how much you can bench (and so also limit the ability of the bench press to maximally work your pecs), then in theory by pre exhausting the pecs only say with flyes, you can then totally exhaust your pecs when you bench.
> 
> To make this work of course ideally you shouldn't be dropping weight on the bench - you should just be making it harder by having the pecs already worked
> 
> ...


I couldn't lift as much on bench if I'd just done 3 sets of flyes to failure, I'd

think it was impossible tbh



B|GJOE said:


> Is it really that important what you lift?
> 
> IMO it is how you lift that makes the difference. Personally I can curl 35kg dumbells with sloppy form, but I get more stimulus from using 18kg with absolute form ensuring only the muscle moves the weight through 100% of the movement.
> 
> ...


You've done this for a long time??

What results have you noticed?

:beer:


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

I feel like my physique is evening out now.

For the last 3 months I have really been concentrating on strict form with a slow pace to ensure 100% muscle use to move weight. Also only been resting 60 seconds between sets. The weights are use for this type of training are much less than I used to use, and also I have to reduce weight as I progress through the workout due to the short rest periods. I am finding that I am spending at least 50% less time in the gym, and my physique is improving. Arms at now 18" cold, which is better than ever. I am currently 17stone and in the best shape at this weight I have ever been. But we'll see come show time this year if I have made considerable improvements in mass over last year. Hoping to come in 7lbs heavier than last year.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

B|GJOE said:


> I feel like my physique is evening out now.
> 
> For the last 3 months I have really been concentrating on strict form with a slow pace to ensure 100% muscle use to move weight. Also only been resting 60 seconds between sets. The weights are use for this type of training are much less than I used to use, and also I have to reduce weight as I progress through the workout due to the short rest periods. I am finding that I am spending at least 50% less time in the gym, and my physique is improving. Arms at now 18" cold, which is better than ever. I am currently 17stone and in the best shape at this weight I have ever been. But we'll see come show time this year if I have made considerable improvements in mass over last year. Hoping to come in 7lbs heavier than last year.


What weight did you come in at in the comp?

I recently went low volume and 1 day on 1 day off but even though its only

been 2 weeks I feel my arms and shoulders have lost muscle, have been doing

HIIT cardio after training so that could be a factor. Don't think its water as

I don't seem to hold a lot of water ever??

Just looking for a change to get things on the move again. Was hoping to

stay leanish and put on maybe 7/8lbs from a blast i'm on, hasn't materialise

although strength has gone up.

Just trying to figure things out:rolleyes:


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2010)

I love it mate, especially for legs.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

Dan said:


> I love it mate, especially for legs.


How much volume would you do, ie in a legs workout??


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

tel3563 said:


> What weight did you come in at in the comp?
> 
> I recently went low volume and 1 day on 1 day off but even though its only
> 
> ...


Came in at just 13st 12 last comp 5'11.

I only train 3 times a week, about 30 mins per session. Tue/Thu/Sat. Each session I spend 60% of the time under load. So I am probably under load more time in 30 mins than most are in 90 minutes.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

Dan said:


> I love it mate, especially for legs.


You love what Dan?

The style of training I described?


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2010)

tel3563 said:


> How much volume would you do, ie in a legs workout??


All i can train atm is legs :lol: so quite a lot.

On monday I did quads..

4x12-15 on leg extensions - same weight

Drop set on leg press of 20 16 12 8 4 reps - same weight

Squat machine 3x6 (last set to failure)

3 x lunges across the gym floor.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

tel3563 said:


> How much volume would you do, ie in a legs workout??


For legs I do

3 x Leg Extensions 10-12 Reps

3 x Leg Press 8-12 Reps

3 x Leg Curl 5-8 Reps

3 x Calf Raise 8-10 Reps

With only 60 seconds rest between sets (not estimated, use a stop watch), taking at least 6 seconds per rep (usually 8, or even 10 on leg ext because of the squeeze at top for 2 seconds), that is pretty gruesome.


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

Dan said:


> All i can train atm is legs :lol: so quite a lot.
> 
> On monday I did quads..
> 
> ...


Ouch!!!!


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## B-GJOE (May 7, 2009)

Dan said:


> All i can train atm is legs :lol: so quite a lot.
> 
> On monday I did quads..
> 
> ...


Leg days should make you puke!!


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## Wee G1436114539 (Oct 6, 2007)

tel3563 said:


> Anyone tried/trying iso exercises before bigger compounds.
> 
> I've read that this type of training is a no no because your lifting lighter weights
> 
> ...


Tel,

this isn't the worst of it mate. Taking flyes + bench as an example, if you do the flyes first, the activation of the TRICEPS increases on the bench press, not the pecs. So, you are using less weigh, nd putting more of the stress on to the triceps, by doing flyes first.


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## Rebus (May 22, 2006)

tel3563 said:


> Anyone tried/trying iso exercises before bigger compounds.
> 
> I've read that this type of training is a no no because your lifting lighter weights
> 
> ...


I tend to do isolation exercises before my compounds, particularly shoulders, biceps, triceps, and quads and they set me up fine for the compound movements.

I also wouldnt say they hampered the strength to much in relation to the weight lifted. For example after i do hamstrings, i then do leg extensions for 3 sets or so to include rest/pause and drop set. I then do heavy leg press for 10-14reps or so or a little lighter and do 20 reps, or even as of late do as Zack Khan has done his leg press. I then do squats and the point im getting at is i can generally squat more or atleast as much after doing those than i can if i done squats first.

I often think its irrelevant the weight used as long as the desired reps are reps worked as the muscle doesnt in essence know if its 100kg moved or 60kg moved aslong as the reps are working reps if you know what i mean...


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## dtlv (Jul 24, 2009)

tel3563 said:


> I couldn't lift as much on bench if I'd just done 3 sets of flyes to failure, I'd
> 
> think it was impossible tbh


Thats kinda my question about the effectiveness of pre exhaust - it may feel more intense but if the total workload of the session is less than straight sets, does that perceived intensity or 'feel in the muscle' necessarily transfer to greater gains? I agree the load doesn't matter per se, but if pre exhaust forces you to do less overall than you normally would... do you get what i mean?

I would hypothesise that what such training might do is lead to positive adaptations in sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and energy stores... would make sense if the training led to a lower load to be used but greater volume.

Speculation though so feel free to disagree


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

I find that flyes are not satisfactory to use as an isolation movement, as to some degree the triceps are somewhat inavoidably involved.if you have acess to a pec deck, use that instead.

the correct protocol as invented by Arthur Jones was to work to failure on the isolation movment, then to bring the fresher muscles, in this case the triceps to further inroad the momemtarily weaker pectorals.Its imperitive to move from isolation to compound in three seconds or less, as much more time will give the muscle time to recover, and thus become a weak link again.

your weight on the compound willl be less, but as Joe points out, its not weight lifting its muscle building.As long as you work to failure, the weight is irelavant.Aim for 8/10 reps, on the isolation, and 6/8 on the compound.

I use this on back movements, by utilising one set of nautilus pullovers, followed by negative chins.It totally fries my back, whilst preserving at least some of my arm strength.

you can even use a double pre-ex cycle such as incline press, pec deck, negative dip.it doesnt get much harder, and youll need a good partner to push you when it gets tough, but its well worth it.

Stop worrying about workload. its the intensity that matters, not how long your in the gym.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

essexboy said:


> I find that flyes are not satisfactory to use as an isolation movement, as to some degree the triceps are somewhat inavoidably involved.if you have acess to a pec deck, use that instead.
> 
> the correct protocol as invented by Arthur Jones was to work to failure on the isolation movment, then to bring the fresher muscles, in this case the triceps to further inroad the momemtarily weaker pectorals.Its imperitive to move from isolation to compound in three seconds or less, as much more time will give the muscle time to recover, and thus become a weak link again.
> 
> ...


Good points made by all, but to address the bold comment, this is the reason

I'm asking the original question, I feel I've given the low volume, high intensity

a go and lost muscle, so obviously its not suited to me, I kinda thought this

as I was doing it, I just didn't get a feel for it, sure enough I was well worked

from the workout but never felt that it was "working". I feel instinct shouldn't

be ignored, and this is why I think volume & intensity, which has worked for

me in the past, is what I'm looking into.

The pre exhaust method I was thinking of using is an isolation exercise

followed by a compound ie Bench or DB Bench, then for larger muscle parts

ie chest, back and quads, repeat with differing exercises. I'd keep the smaller

muscles to maybe super sets, 3 sets of each exercise.

When Tall was on here, a real knowledge box (and much missed) he was very

down on the actual pre exhaust method of fly followed immediately by compound.

Over stressing the CNS was one of the problems and a few others that I can't

recall.

Its impossible to tie 2 apparatus up in our gym, not big enough and a bit pot

luck who or who's not in.

I also train alone so its not like I can guarantee getting to another piece of apparatus

and get it loaded up within 3 seconds

I'm not talking about being in the gym for hours, I'll still keep workouts to under

the hour and probably less, as I'm going to cut resting down to 45/60 seconds.

This method is something I've seen a few competative BBers recommending lately

and I just thought I'd see If anyone else is seeing results

Wee, there's volume and intensity, and then there's Wee's training


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## martin brown (Dec 31, 2008)

Wee G said:


> Tel,
> 
> this isn't the worst of it mate. Taking flyes + bench as an example, if you do the flyes first, the activation of the TRICEPS increases on the bench press, not the pecs. So, you are using less weigh, nd putting more of the stress on to the triceps, by doing flyes first.


I tend to agree here.

Pre exhaustion simply encourages other parts of the movement chain to do more. The body isn't daft - it wont fail a compound move because of a pre-exhausted single part of a chain where other muscles are capable of movement.

The more you push the bench after flyes the more you reprogram the firing of the triceps, delts, pecs, and lats when bench pressing. Over time you may well end up using less and less pec activation when pressing.

In PL'ing we almost do this deliberatly- teach ourselves to press with the triceps (as they are the strongest muscle in the chain and capable of much more load than the pecs or delts).

It all comes back to whether you believe you should be isolating and hammering muscle fibres to death or doing compounds with sub maximal weights and higher frequencies. If it's the former then machines will help you, if you believe the latter then load and volume are two very important variables.

M

Little side note - I think flyes/bench and ext/squat can be pretty problematic for pec/quad tears.


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## essexboy (Sep 7, 2008)

tel3563 said:


> Good points made by all, but to address the bold comment, this is the reason
> 
> I'm asking the original question, I feel I've given the low volume, high intensity
> 
> ...


 Tel.If you cannot "tie up" both machines in your gym, then I dont feel that pre-ex would be beneficial .I have been in the sane situation, and worrrying about whether you are going to be able to complete the cycle, will mean you will be anxious, during the isolation means your focus will suffer.

Please dont take this the wrong way.Your recent posts seem to indicate that you are in a quandry about how to structure your workouts.

You say that you lost muscle, training HIT.This makes me believe that you were/are overtraining.You are an "aging" BB,like me.You wont recover like you did when you were 25.Cut back on the frequency.

you train for an hour 3/4 times a week.I train for 20 minutes 1/2 times every 8/9 days.I can only refer my own experiences.At my age (49) I continue to get stronger,nearly every w/o.The hardest part is establishing the mindset, to train at full bore, whilst limiting the workload and frequency.A properly constructed and executed HIT full body routine will leaver you in a state of total fatigue, looking for excuses not to finish it.

As point of reference, many pro bodybuilders , visited Nautilus in the 70s.With the exception of Casey Viator and Franco Columbo, none finished a supervised workout, without quitting.That was 12 sets.Dont forget these guys were the genetic elite.Ill stick my neck out, and state I bet not one of the top ten at this years olympia are in good enough anaerobic, areobic condition to do it either.Please excuse the typos, been a "stella"night.


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## TH0R (Aug 15, 2007)

essexboy said:


> Tel.If you cannot "tie up" both machines in your gym, then I dont feel that pre-ex would be beneficial .I have been in the sane situation, and worrrying about whether you are going to be able to complete the cycle, will mean you will be anxious, during the isolation means your focus will suffer.
> 
> Please dont take this the wrong way.Your recent posts seem to indicate that you are in a quandry about how to structure your workouts.
> 
> ...


 :lol: No probs

I'm still gaining in strength, doesn't mean I'm gaining in hypetrophy and that is

the key to me, I've been on here for a year or two listening to overtraining

talk when I'd never heard of it for the years previously, I'm not making a

generalisation here, I'm just saying I felt it doesn't suit me, I'll try the higher

volume and intensity, sort of pre exhausting for a month and then reasess.

I dare say if I wanted to gain in strenght that the low volume training would

be the way to go, but I'm wanting hypertrophy and this is what I don't feel

I get when training this way.

I've been training one on one off for 3 weeks, but I've also cut the volume down

on exercises, thats the key.

We'll see anyway, Its only a theory that I'm going to test.

Your right about the quandry, but its nothing new


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